Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Batman]

It's been too long since I saw RotJ. If the Emperor's plan relied on the Rebel signaling their fleet that they made it through then yes, this would merely be Vader playing along-if he captures the shuttle, yea, no destroying the shield generator, but also no Rebel fleet showing up to be anihilated, and realistically, the Rebels succeeding was already improbable as hell so why not let the team sucker their fleet into the trap?
Problem is I don't recall any mention of that in the movie, the novelization, or any of the rest of the EU. The Rebel fleet showed up on a fixed timetable hoping the strike team got through and managed to terminate the shield. So what would Vader have to gain from letting them through if he's still loyal to Palpatine?
Indeed, if the strike team was supposed to call home once they succeeded, the Rebel attack would never have happened to begin with, because by the time the fleet showed up, they hadn't.

[Purple]

It's been too long since I saw RotJ. If the Emperor's plan relied on the Rebel signaling their fleet that they made it through then yes, this would merely be Vader playing along-if he captures the shuttle, yea, no destroying the shield generator, but also no Rebel fleet showing up to be anihilated, and realistically, the Rebels succeeding was already improbable as hell so why not let the team sucker their fleet into the trap?
Problem is I don't recall any mention of that in the movie, the novelization, or any of the rest of the EU. The Rebel fleet showed up on a fixed timetable hoping the strike team got through and managed to terminate the shield. So what would Vader have to gain from letting them through if he's still loyal to Palpatine?
Indeed, if the strike team was supposed to call home once they succeeded, the Rebel attack would never have happened to begin with, because by the time the fleet showed up, they hadn't.

This. The more you think about it the more it seems that Vader letting them through after sensing Luke and knowing that Luke can sense him can easily be interpreted as him sending a message to his son. Especially when you consider that once on the planet Luke surrenders to stormtroopers seemingly just so he can talk to Vader and immediately starts addressing the redemption issue. It would also explain why Palpatines attempts to turn him seem so badly thought out in hindsight. The man might well have not planed for things to go that way and was improvising on the move.

[Tribble]

@ Havok

So let me get your position straight. You feel that Anakin's slaughtering of children was justifiable, an isolated incident, and that by weeping with Padme for a couple of minutes he cleared himself of any guilt? Am i correct on that? Because there is no mention of him telling the Jedi about this. There is no mention of him seeking psychiatric help. In fact, as far as I am aware, this incident is never mentioned again anywhere in the movies. He basically shoved it under the rug and moved on. And you're perfectly fine with that.

And let's just pretend for a second that he did tell the Jedi in order to atone himself. How was that conservation supposed to go?

YODA: In great pain you were, on Tatooine.
ANAKIN: Yes, my master. My mother had been kidnapped, and when I went to go rescue her I was too late. She died in my arms.
YODA: Tragedy, that was.
ANAKIN: Then I slaughtered every single person in the village in a homicidal rage. Maybe that is what you sensed, my Master?
YODA: ...
ANAKIN: And not just the men, but the women and the children too.
YODA: hmmmm... Remedial lessons in Jedi ethics, you need.

And that's the end of that, because he's still a Jedi in the next movie.

I'm sorry, I guess this is where you and I have an irrevocable difference in opinion here. I cannot view a person as a hero when that person has slaughtered an entire village full of people in a homicidal rage... and then goes on to do worse things. Clearly you have no problems with that, provided that he/she sheds a few tears afterwards. If that works for you, then hey, congratulations. I was just pointing out the area where I thought the Prequels were weakest. For you Anakin's fall worked. For me it didn't. End of Story.

[Purple]

And let's just pretend for a second that he did tell the Jedi in order to atone himself. How was that conservation supposed to go?

YODA: In great pain you were, on Tatooine.
ANAKIN: Yes, my master. My mother had been kidnapped, and when I went to go rescue her I was too late. She died in my arms.
YODA: Tragedy, that was.
ANAKIN: Then I slaughtered every single person in the village in a homicidal rage. Maybe that is what you sensed, my Master?
YODA: ...
ANAKIN: And not just the men, but the women and the children too.
YODA: hmmmm... Remedial lessons in Jedi ethics, you need.

And that's the end of that, because he's still a Jedi in the next movie.

I would actually not be that surprised if that is exactly how things went. You have to remember that Yoda is the guy that preaches detachment. He would most certainly not have the kind of strong emotional reaction to butchering children that you did. So even under ordinary circumstances I could see him trying to fix Anikin rather than throwing him out. And given the way he seems to see things that might well have ended in "say 5 hail marys and read the chapter on children in the Jedi handbook". This is especially true given that the character here is no other than the chosen one mega potential superjedi and throwing him out would have made it all too easy for the Sith to snatch him up.

And besides, the Jedi did not seem to care that much about what happens on the wrong side of the Republican border anyway.

[Tribble]

Great, so the way the prequels set things up, not only is Anakin a butcher of children, but the Jedi are fine with that provided the children he butchers aren't theirs.

And I am supposed to be rooting for them because...? Well, I guess a lot of people don't seem to care. That's not what I expected going in though.

[Borgholio]

I would actually find myself being more of a Sith than a Jedi due to their attitudes in the PT. The Sith at least were right about the "not holding back your emotions" thing. They just failed because they couldn't control their egos. The Jedi on the other hand were practically Vulcans...detach yourself from all the good feelings that make life worth living, but also somehow try to resist the evil.

Quite frankly if the Jedi knew about things like slavery and organized crime rings and did nothing, then they're definitely irresponsible to say the least. If they tell you to just let your loved ones suffer and die instead of trying to help them "just because", then that is (to me) more evil than a simple power grab like the Sith often did.

[Purple]

Great, so the way the prequels set things up, not only is Anakin a butcher of children, but the Jedi are fine with that provided the children he butchers aren't theirs.

Well this is the same Jedi order who not only completely ignored slavery happening in the outer rim but went so far as to not even bother to liberate the enslaved mother of one of their own.

And I am supposed to be rooting for them because...? Well, I guess a lot of people don't seem to care. That's not what I expected going in though.

I always thought that the point of the movies was that you were NOT supposed to be rooting for them. The movies show us a republic whose R is written without caps. It's a politically stagnant and ineffective society lead by a corrupt bureaucracy and enforced by a Jedi order so detached from the ideals they are supposed to represent that they seem alien to us. The system as set up in the movies is literally set up to fail horribly. All it needs is a push. And you were supposed to witness the tragedy of what happens when that push comes. There is no good here. Only the bad killing the ugly.

[Tribble]

I'm not saying your wrong, and that indeed may have been what they were aiming at, but again it kinda comes out of left-field for me. I never had that impression when I watched the OT. So it felt really... jarring.

To be perfectly honest, I fail to see why some people like Havok feel the need to rabidly defend the prequels as if they were God's greatest gift on Earth and that I simply "don't get it." It's a personal opinion, and the only reason I am defending it is because I seem to be constantly being attacked for it. It's an opinion which I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in, and its not the rather simplistic "bash Jar-Jar" excuse.

Yes, I have seen all 6 movies. Plenty of times. Probably a lot more than most people have, outside of this forum of course. And yes, I did enjoy all of them, including the prequels. But I'm not going to pretend like the prequels were the equal to the OT because in my opinion, they weren't. And yes, my main disappointment with the prequels was how the central premise played out because it was rather different than the impression I had going in.

[Borgholio]

I liked Episodes 2 and 3 due to the action which I felt was definitely Star Wars quality. Episode 1 was a bit bland and IMHO the worst of the series but not by much. It wasn't really a "bad" movie.

When you stand back for a bit and look at the OT, you'll find some WTF lines that easily match anything in the Prequels. For instance, Obi Wan has quite a few zingers. :

"Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?"
"A wretched hive of scum and villainy."
Not to mention the whole "point of view" bullshit.

Then as far as acting ability, maybe young Anakin was a bit wooden, but Luke was a whiny bitch for most of the first movie. Hardly the kind of guy who you would expect to grow up to be a hero.

So when you compare corny lines, bad dialogue, wooden acting, and things like that...really the OT isn't that much better than the PT. That said, it's still all Star Wars...and I still get a kick from sitting down and watching the full marathon starting from EP 4 and ending with EP 3 once a year or so.

[Metahive]

And of course The Clone Wars also contradicts the whole "Jedi are uncaring assholes" thing too because there they're shown caring deeply and greatly even about the clone troopers to the point of adamantly contradicting them when they talk of themselves as fully disposable and Jedi who don't do so are clearly marked as villainous.
I greatly prefer this characterization.

[Havok]

@ Havok

So let me get your position straight. You feel that Anakin's slaughtering of children was justifiable, an isolated incident, and that by weeping with Padme for a couple of minutes he cleared himself of any guilt? Am i correct on that? Because there is no mention of him telling the Jedi about this. There is no mention of him seeking psychiatric help. In fact, as far as I am aware, this incident is never mentioned again anywhere in the movies. He basically shoved it under the rug and moved on. And you're perfectly fine with that.

You're a fucking idiot.

And let's just pretend for a second that he did tell the Jedi in order to atone himself. How was that conservation supposed to go?

YODA: In great pain you were, on Tatooine.
ANAKIN: Yes, my master. My mother had been kidnapped, and when I went to go rescue her I was too late. She died in my arms.
YODA: Tragedy, that was.
ANAKIN: Then I slaughtered every single person in the village in a homicidal rage. Maybe that is what you sensed, my Master?
YODA: ...
ANAKIN: And not just the men, but the women and the children too.
YODA: hmmmm... Remedial lessons in Jedi ethics, you need.

And that's the end of that, because he's still a Jedi in the next movie.

I'm sorry, I guess this is where you and I have an irrevocable difference in opinion here. I cannot view a person as a hero when that person has slaughtered an entire village full of people in a homicidal rage... and then goes on to do worse things. Clearly you have no problems with that, provided that he/she sheds a few tears afterwards. If that works for you, then hey, congratulations. I was just pointing out the area where I thought the Prequels were weakest. For you Anakin's fall worked. For me it didn't. End of Story.

I thought you couldn't be more of a fucking idiot. I was wrong.

[Irbis]

I am also cautiously optimistic for the same reasons. I also heard Peter Mayhew is returning as Chewbacca - considering he's nearly 70 and recently had major knee surgery thanks to his condition, I wonder how large a role he will play in the new trilogy.

Think about it this way - 70 year old, sick man who wasn't really paid anything for acting in one of most popular movies ever how has a chance to earn more than he did in recent years for simple appearance.

That is simple, right thing to do and much more than George Lucas ever did for him.

[Tribble]

@ Havok

So let me get your position straight. You feel that Anakin's slaughtering of children was justifiable, an isolated incident, and that by weeping with Padme for a couple of minutes he cleared himself of any guilt? Am i correct on that? Because there is no mention of him telling the Jedi about this. There is no mention of him seeking psychiatric help. In fact, as far as I am aware, this incident is never mentioned again anywhere in the movies. He basically shoved it under the rug and moved on. And you're perfectly fine with that.

You're a fucking idiot.

And let's just pretend for a second that he did tell the Jedi in order to atone himself. How was that conservation supposed to go?

YODA: In great pain you were, on Tatooine.
ANAKIN: Yes, my master. My mother had been kidnapped, and when I went to go rescue her I was too late. She died in my arms.
YODA: Tragedy, that was.
ANAKIN: Then I slaughtered every single person in the village in a homicidal rage. Maybe that is what you sensed, my Master?
YODA: ...
ANAKIN: And not just the men, but the women and the children too.
YODA: hmmmm... Remedial lessons in Jedi ethics, you need.

And that's the end of that, because he's still a Jedi in the next movie.

I'm sorry, I guess this is where you and I have an irrevocable difference in opinion here. I cannot view a person as a hero when that person has slaughtered an entire village full of people in a homicidal rage... and then goes on to do worse things. Clearly you have no problems with that, provided that he/she sheds a few tears afterwards. If that works for you, then hey, congratulations. I was just pointing out the area where I thought the Prequels were weakest. For you Anakin's fall worked. For me it didn't. End of Story.

I thought you couldn't be more of a fucking idiot. I was wrong.

Perhaps my postings weren't clear enough. If not, then I apologize. I disagree with your viewpoint, and unlike most people when I disagree with someone's viewpoint I take the time to explain why. Out of respect for you, so that you can fully understand where I am coming from. Some people earlier on jumped to the conclusion that I disliked the prequels, which is not true - I simply think that they do not live up to the OT, and I have explained my particular reasons as to why. You challenged my viewpoint, and I'm happy to debate the merits of it, as well as your own viewpoint. That does not mean I dislike you personally. Or that your opinion is wrong. We clearly just have different points of view. Again, for you, Anakin's story worked. As far as I am concerned that's great. For me, it didn't.

[Havok]

And you have no idea why I am calling you an idiot. Wow, surprising.

[Tribble]

Actually, I think I understand you perfectly. You were already kind enough to sum up the just of your argument to Metahive:

I find your comprehension of the movie unconvincing. Disagree all you want. You're wrong.

Or in other words you believe that the universe revolves around you, and anyone who dares question your opinion is a fucking idiot. You seem utterly incapable of comprehending the fact that watching a movie is a subjective experience, and what works for you does not necessarily work for everyone else. I've even gone out of my way to explain that while I don't share your viewpoint, I do understand it, and if you enjoy PT as much as OT or more, that's great for you. It's pretty blatant that what you are really after is for me to stroke your ego. It's not enough for you that I understand your viewpoint; I must kneel before you and beg for forgiveness while pledging that you are absolutely in the right, and that my personal experience were simply due to me not "comprehending" the movie well enough to "get it".

Your attitude has become so pathetically predictable that I'm not even annoyed by it anymore. Perhaps when you've finished throwing your tantrum you will understand that in a world of over 7 billion people, not everyone is going to agree with you, and maybe one day you'll learn to live with that. Until then, you're just embarrassing yourself.

[Havok]

If you could actually comprehend what I said, you may have a point. Since you obviously CAN'T, you don't.
Calling my attitude predictable is the only thing you've seemed to get because I constantly have to deal with idiots like YOU that don't bother to read what I write or just flat out can't understand it. So my attitude is indeed predictable when you can't understand themes and story points that fucking 6 year old kids get.

Let's check out NERD DISHONESTY®©™

@ Havok

So let me get your position straight. You feel that Anakin's slaughtering of children was justifiable,

What I said about this...

It is to Anakin's credit that he even feels bad for them because there was ZERO chance they would grow up to be or do anything different.

Now only a dishonest shit would read that and say, "Havok thinks the slaughtering of children was justifiable."
First, you take it out of the context that I squarely place it in and that is of the sand people kidnapping, torturing, killing, attacking, stealing from the settlers of Tattooine for always.

You also completely ignored that I cited: A: His mother's death. B: His rage fueling the Dark Side in him. C: Being a teenager already prone to bad decision making. D: The fact that you can not separate Anakin the magic user from the magic in this issue because it suits you and makes your stance on the issue more tenable.

Finally, because I am not a fucking moron like you, I can understand in universe motivations and actions and defend and explain them *GASP* even if I don't agree with them.

an isolated incident,

Did he slaughter villages before this? Was his mother tortured to the brink death to die in his arms before this? Was he murdering his way through sand people villages before he met Qui-Gon Jinn? Was he sneaking around as a Jedi wiping out villages behind everyone's back before this? Was there EXTREMELY extenuating circumstances that caused this to happen?

isolated
adjective

: separate from others

: happening just once

: happening in different places and at different times

in·ci·dent
noun

: an unexpected and usually unpleasant thing that happens

By fucking DEFINITION, this was an isolated incident you fucking numb nut.

and that by weeping with Padme for a couple of minutes he cleared himself of any guilt?

What I said about this...

Anakin has guilt about the sandpeople. He breaks down crying about it. Palpatine practically says "hey dude, remember how guilty you are about the sandpeople?" You think just because he told Padme that he somehow absolved himself of the deed and was guilt free? Geezuz.

Emphasis mine.
I then went on to say...

Of course he blames Obi-Wan. He blames the whole Order for it. That's the fucking point. What the fuck movie are you watching? They told him to "let go" and basically ignore his dreams, which turned out to be 100% accurate and because of that, his feelings of guilt are transferred to and focused on keeping Padme alive no matter the cost because he is terrified of her dying and feeling what he did when his mother died and DOING WHAT HE DID when his mother died...

Then...

Anakin's guilt over killing the sand people is DIRECTLY tied to his guilt over not saving his mother when he knew what was happening to her.

Oh and then...

Have you considered that it is his guilt that causes him to be so impulsive in his attack against Dooku? Or it is his guilt that wants him to fall back and save the clone troopers escorting he and Obi-Wan in the battle of Coruscant? Or, and this is the obvious one, that his guilt drives how he reacts to the dreams about Padme?

His unwavering drive and willingness to do pretty much anything to make sure his dreams about Padme never come true clearly demonstrate a broken and guilt ridden psyche that can easily be traced to his inaction concerning his mother and his over reaction after the fact of her death. All you have to do is pay attention to the movies. Despite what you think of the dialogue or writing, the motivations of the characters are clear as fucking day.

So to recap, after all the above, the what, five or six times I specifically point to Anakin's guilt over the isolated incident on Tattooine involving his slaughtering of the entire sand people village over the death of his mother you say this...

So let me get your position straight...
...that by weeping with Padme for a couple of minutes he cleared himself of any guilt?

Am i correct on that?

No Captain Can't Comprehend Words, you are absolutely fucking wrong. So sadly and pathetically wrong.

This above is why you are a fucking idiot. And because you can't even read and comprehend what I wrote, not only that but somehow completely reversed some of it, why in the fuck should I, or anyone else, think your take on the movies is anything other than complete bullshit because you can't comprehend the simple character motivations made for and understood by children.

Because there is no mention of him telling the Jedi about this. There is no mention of him seeking psychiatric help. In fact, as far as I am aware, this incident is never mentioned again anywhere in the movies. He basically shoved it under the rug and moved on. And you're perfectly fine with that.

And again... deep dark secret that drives a character... my gawd you are so simple.
I'm fine with it in the sense that I understand completely why he did it. I get the motivations. I understand the reasoning. I am more than 4 years old.
Only a dishonest shit like you takes what I wrote about his actions and comes to the conclusion that I am "perfectly fine with that" implying that I AGREE with what he did or would even do the same thing.

And let's just pretend for a second that he did tell the Jedi in order to atone himself. How was that conservation supposed to go?

YODA: In great pain you were, on Tatooine.
ANAKIN: Yes, my master. My mother had been kidnapped, and when I went to go rescue her I was too late. She died in my arms.
YODA: Tragedy, that was.
ANAKIN: Then I slaughtered every single person in the village in a homicidal rage. Maybe that is what you sensed, my Master?
YODA: ...
ANAKIN: And not just the men, but the women and the children too.
YODA: hmmmm... Remedial lessons in Jedi ethics, you need.

And that's the end of that, because he's still a Jedi in the next movie.

And this is reason #3 why you are a fucking moron. That you think that this somehow would actually happen, and/or that Yoda's character would react this way. It shows that you not only haven't watched the prequels, but that you couldn't even comprehend the original movies.

I'm sorry, I guess this is where you and I have an irrevocable difference in opinion here. I cannot view a person as a hero when that person has slaughtered an entire village full of people in a homicidal rage... and then goes on to do worse things. Clearly you have no problems with that, provided that he/she sheds a few tears afterwards. If that works for you, then hey, congratulations. I was just pointing out the area where I thought the Prequels were weakest. For you Anakin's fall worked. For me it didn't. End of Story.

Again, conclusions based on idiocy, not being able to comprehend sentences, and just being a dishonest piece of shit.

You think I need you to stroke my ego? Dude, I want smart people to stroke my ego, not simpletons that are barely on par with little kids. And understand my viewpoint? I think I've shown that not only did you NOT understand my viewpoint, you can barely understand the actions and dialogue in fucking Star Wars. And there certainly is some embarrassing going on in this thread, luckily one of the perks of being stupid is that you tend to not realize it, so you shouldn't feel too bad when you read this, because it's obvious, you won't understand it.

[Havok]

Havok, this is clearly going nowhere since it seems neither you nor I will budge on this issue,

I don't need to budge. Whether or not I liked the acting, the story, the special effects, the movie or whatever, I saw what was on screen.

so let me just ask you two questions:

1.Do you think Anakin is written as well as he could be to get the narrative intention of him as a flawed hero across? If not, what would you have improved or changed?

I think the character was written fine. I think the choice of actor was bad. I think the dialogue written for him was bad.
Do I think he is Micheal Corleone? Of course not. However it is fucking Star Wars and this is where I have my issue.
People remember Mark Hamil and Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher like they were fucking Brando, Olivier and Hepburn. The dialog was just as bad, the love scenes just as corny, it's just that Ford and Fisher had fucking amazing chemistry on screen. As I have said over and over Portman and Christensen's best scene together was when they were in two separate rooms miles apart staring off into nothing thinking about each other. That says a lot about the acting and chemistry and it is not good.

2.Do you accept the possibility that people might genuinely not like !Movie Anakin for reasons that are not related to some personal deficiency of their own?

I accept that they don't like him because he is a bad actor. If say, a young Tom Hanks or Brad Pitt played Anakin with the same exact dialog, the same exact writing, I feel that people would have liked the character. I mean read Qui-Gon Ginn's dialogue. Neeson made it work. Chistensen didn't. I also think his chemistry with Portman was absolute shit. HOWEVER that doesn't absolve people from seeing what was on screen. Christensen certainly could have done a better job, but what he does do gets the motivations of his character across.

You really have to be an idiot to not get what was going on with Anakin in the movies. Hayden was also much better in ROTS than AOTC. AOTC was just atrocious all the way around.

[Tribble]

@Havok

When a character slaughters a village in a homicidal rage, including women and children, I view that character as evil. Period. For me, the act itself is irredeemable regardless of the motivations. And no amount of wangsting by the character after the fact will alter my opinion. It is one of my moral event horizons; once they step through there is no going back in my eyes, no matter how guilty they feel about it afterwards.

The difference between you and me is that I am fully aware that what I have expressed is a personal opinion. I am not claiming to be either right or wrong. On the other hand you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking that your viewpoints are facts, when they are not. You are merely interpreting scenes differently than I am.

It's not like we are arguing over a math problem here, where there is a right and wrong answer. Like calculating the amount of energy required to blow up an Earth-sized planet, for example. Determining whether a movie is "good" or not ultimately depends on the subjective experience of the person who is watching it. What works for one person does not necessarily work for all. I initially thought you were capable of grasping a simple concept like that, but clearly I was mistaken.

[Gaidin]

So? The thing that's being missed here is that the idea of the dark side is that regardless of actions done while fallen to the dark side, one can turn from it. Would and could one still be viewed as evil? Yes. You're naming the perfect example of it. Darth Vader in the EU is viewed as evil. Period, full stop, by pretty much everyone but Luke. And that's only because he's managed the same mental gymnastics that Obi-Wan did and views Vader and Anakin as two separate entities. View Anakin as evil. Go for it. Be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that he can later turn from the dark side and that can be said is a fact.

Though that's not really what I think Havok was talking about, unless you don't mind quoting a specific post for me. My impression was that Star Wars was never very good writing. Just that the first time around that was overbalanced into the great movie side by great chemistry and directing, while the second time that was traumatically missing.

EDIT: I see the post, sorry, nevermind.

[Havok]

@Havok

When a character slaughters a village in a homicidal rage, including women and children, I view that character as evil. Period.

Even if the village is full of evil kidnappers, murderers and torturers? Oh right the children... that will grow up to be kidnappers, murderers and torturers. You do remember that these are people that like shooting at people racing and trying to kill them for fucking fun right? Oh and did you remember the torture and murder? Of course you don't, you didn't pay attention to the movies or can even comprehend them.

And again CIRCUMSTANCES. For fucks sake, you just don't get it... his personal circumstances, the way the Force affects people... none of it.

You act as if he just waltzed in and massacred a village he just found for the hell of it and your whole stance is based on THAT.

For me, the act itself is irredeemable regardless of the motivations. And no amount of wangsting by the character after the fact will alter my opinion. It is one of my moral event horizons; once they step through there is no going back in my eyes, no matter how guilty they feel about it afterwards.

So then the entire original trilogy is just a waste for you huh? But of course you probably missed the whole theme of redemption that runs through it.

The difference between you and me is that I am fully aware that what I have expressed is a personal opinion. I am not claiming to be either right or wrong. On the other hand you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking that your viewpoints are facts, when they are not. You are merely interpreting scenes differently than I am.

No the difference between you and I is that I can look at a movie and comprehend and understand it's themes and plots and motivations even if I may not like the movie or think it is good. I understand your personal opinion you blithering moron, but as I have pointed out, you can't even read what I wrote or get the most basic themes from fucking Star Wars, and therefor you opinion is based in stupidity. There are scenes that are left open to interpretation in movies, Star Wars isn't exactly one of those movies. I mean for fucks sake the bad guys all dress in black robes, use the Dark Side, have red laserswords and their eyes turn yellow when they are being bad... you can't get much more basic in theme than that.

Anakin's fall doesn't work for you because you EXPECTED him to be some heroic character that apparently was so awesome he couldn't possibly fall to the Dark Side. I'm curious as to what would cause your Super Awesome Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. Mostly though just so I could laugh at it because I know it will be terrible.

It's not like we are arguing over a math problem here, where there is a right and wrong answer. Like calculating the amount of energy required to blow up an Earth-sized planet, for example. Determining whether a movie is "good" or not ultimately depends on the subjective experience of the person who is watching it. What works for one person does not necessarily work for all. I initially thought you were capable of grasping a simple concept like that, but clearly I was mistaken.

And again, Captain Comprehension, when did I say the movies were good you fucking idiot. I have repeatedly stated that despite what I think of them, I still can understand who, what, where, how and why Anakin did what he did. That is what is obviously confusing you. I don't have to LIKE Anakin as a character to UNDERSTAND him as a character.

And you know what dillhole, good for you for not liking him anymore after he slaughters the sand people. If that's when he becomes evil to you fine, but don't sit there and act all high and mighty about it because you STILL watched Revenge of the Sith. You still watched the rest of Attack of the Clones. If at that point you " view that character as evil. Period." then there was no reason for you to watch the rest of the prequels. You already knew how they were going to end. You didn't need to keep watching, but you did.

Oh and I liked how you completely ignored how you totally misrepresented my stance on Anakin's feelings of guilt and what I said after I clearly pointed it out. Or how you don't even know what "isolated incident" means, or that you didn't grasp the character of Yoda. More Nerd Dishonesty.

This whole thread has been an exercise in Goal Post Moving.
Anakin wasn't what I imagined he should be. Ok, that doesn't make the characterization bad.
Well he was an asshole. No, he was a good kid.
Well he was always breaking the rules. He only disobeyed orders twice.
Well he was reckless. No he wasn't, he planned things out. He just overestimated his abilities.
Well he wasn't heroic. Here is a list of his heroic acts.
Well he wasn't guilty. Here are all the things that shows he felt guilty.
Well he shouldn't have been such a strong character to be able to leave his mother. (what? ) He was clearly shown as sad about this.
And on and on...

[Tribble]

Even if the village is full of evil kidnappers, murderers and torturers? Oh right the children... that will grow up to be kidnappers, murderers and torturers. You do remember that these are people that like shooting at people racing and trying to kill them for fucking fun right? Oh and did you remember the torture and murder? Of course you don't, you didn't pay attention to the movies or can even comprehend them.

Prove that every single person in the village was an evil kidnapper, murderer and torturer, including the children. There is no evidence to suggest that that they were all equally culpable for Shmi, and based on Anakin's dialogue and tone of voice he knew that they weren't. We have absolutely no clue how their society works. Were all of the men equally guilty, or did some of them dissent while feeling incapable of acting against the ones who were directly involved? Are all the women in on the act, or were they just as powerless as Shmi was? And as for the children - do you honestly believe that they will grow up to be kidnappers, murderers and tortures no matter what is done for them? Believe it or not there are ways to help children who have had bad parenting besides cutting their heads off.

And again CIRCUMSTANCES. For fucks sake, you just don't get it... his personal circumstances, the way the Force affects people... none of it.

You act as if he just waltzed in and massacred a village he just found for the hell of it and your whole stance is based on THAT.

Even when including the circumstances the fact that he slaughtered an entire village full of people regardless of their potential guilt or innocence is inexcusable. If he were a moral character he would still bring them in for justice regardless. But if you wanted this scene to show his gradual fall to the Dark Side they could have just as easily have him find out who was responsible and kill them, while sparing the rest. This would have made his slaughter of the children in ROTS have real impact, rather than me thinking "well, what else is new?"

So then the entire original trilogy is just a waste for you huh? But of course you probably missed the whole theme of redemption that runs through it.

Just because Vader killed the Emperor doesn't mean he's off the hook. Had he survived, he should still have been put on trial for what he had done. He may have felt genuine remorse for his crimes, but that does not negate the fact that he committed them. And to be honest, why should Vader's action at the end of ROTJ be considered good? He turned on the Emperor because the Emperor was going to kill Luke. How is this different from when he turned on Windu to try and save Padme? If anything it was Luke who managed to redeem himself before it was too late. He stared into the Abyss, and it stared back into him... yet he was still able to walk away.

No the difference between you and I is that I can look at a movie and comprehend and understand it's themes and plots and motivations even if I may not like the movie or think it is good. I understand your personal opinion you blithering moron, but as I have pointed out, you can't even read what I wrote or get the most basic themes from fucking Star Wars, and therefor you opinion is based in stupidity. There are scenes that are left open to interpretation in movies, Star Wars isn't exactly one of those movies. I mean for fucks sake the bad guys all dress in black robes, use the Dark Side, have red laserswords and their eyes turn yellow when they are being bad... you can't get much more basic in theme than that.

Anakin's fall doesn't work for you because you EXPECTED him to be some heroic character that apparently was so awesome he couldn't possibly fall to the Dark Side. I'm curious as to what would cause your Super Awesome Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. Mostly though just so I could laugh at it because I know it will be terrible.

I wasn't expecting Anakin to be perfect, I was expecting his fall to the Dark Side to be gradual. As in, slaughtering an entire village of people should have been one of the last things he did before becoming Vader, rather than in the middle of the second prequel. Really, if that one scene in AOTC had been removed or at least altered so that Anakin only killed those who were responsible rather than every single fucking person, I think his character would be a lot better for it.

And again, Captain Comprehension, when did I say the movies were good you fucking idiot. I have repeatedly stated that despite what I think of them, I still can understand who, what, where, how and why Anakin did what he did. That is what is obviously confusing you. I don't have to LIKE Anakin as a character to UNDERSTAND him as a character.
Clearly your understanding of Anakin's character is different than mine, as apparently you don't feel that he was evil after his actions in AOTC, while I do.

And you know what dillhole, good for you for not liking him anymore after he slaughters the sand people. If that's when he becomes evil to you fine, but don't sit there and act all high and mighty about it because you STILL watched Revenge of the Sith. You still watched the rest of Attack of the Clones. If at that point you " view that character as evil. Period." then there was no reason for you to watch the rest of the prequels. You already knew how they were going to end. You didn't need to keep watching, but you did.

I was pointing out what I felt was the biggest weakness in the prequels, and how that particular scene impacted my interpretation of Anakin's character, both in the prequels and the OT. At no point did I say that I felt the movies were terrible. There is a big difference between "this is where I feel the prequels could have been improved" and "the prequels fucking suck." It's not my fault you are too stupid to understand the difference.

Oh and I liked how you completely ignored how you totally misrepresented my stance on Anakin's feelings of guilt and what I said after I clearly pointed it out. Or how you don't even know what "isolated incident" means, or that you didn't grasp the character of Yoda. More Nerd Dishonesty.

What stance is there? That Anakin felt incredibly guilty? Really? Then why is he still a Jedi after killing all the villagers? There are only two possible explanations:

1) He never told the Jedi. If he felt guilty about it, he certainly didn't feel guilty enough to turn himself in and take any meaningful responsibility for it. He didn't feel guilty enough to feel that coming out about it was worth jeopardising his career. And being a Jedi, you would think that this would be the kind of thing where if he felt truly remorseful and wanted to atone for himself he would have felt honour bound to report it. There is no evidence to suggest that he told anyone apart from Padme and perhaps Palpatine. Oh, how terribly guilty he must feel! Please. IMO this is the most likely explanation, as Anakin never told the Jedi about his relationship with Padme, which is something the Jedi clearly forbid.

2) The Jedi knew about it, and yet they still kept him. This would be either an incredibly fucking stupid move on their part at best, or else they were acting immorally. No matter how powerful Anakin was and how much potential he had, you would think that they wouldn't tolerate that kind of behaviour, and that they would understand keeping him around as a front-line Jedi would be an incredibly dangerous and risky thing to do. The only reason why Anakin would remain in the Order as a Jedi if they knew about it would be because they didn't care enough to actually do anything meaningful to address it. If they new about it, he never even got a formal/informal reprimand. So how moral are the Jedi if they allow emotionally unstable people like him to continue to be in their ranks, let alone continue to act on the front-line?

This whole thread has been an exercise in Goal Post Moving.
Anakin wasn't what I imagined he should be. Ok, that doesn't make the characterization bad.
Well he was an asshole. No, he was a good kid.
Well he was always breaking the rules. He only disobeyed orders twice.
Well he was reckless. No he wasn't, he planned things out. He just overestimated his abilities.
Well he wasn't heroic. Here is a list of his heroic acts.
Well he wasn't guilty. Here are all the things that shows he felt guilty.
Well he shouldn't have been such a strong character to be able to leave his mother. (what? ) He was clearly shown as sad about this.
And on and on...

[/quote]

If you have actually bothered to read my posts, you might have noticed that my comments for the most part were about that particular scene in AOTC, rather than Anakin's actions as a whole. So who exactly are you talking to here?

[Elheru Aran]

In another note:

A Disney producer has confirmed that their canon for the new trilogy will be the films. They are effectively going to dump the EU, although there will be some inspiration from it in the Rebels cartoon.

http://www.nerdist.com/2014/04/simon-ki ... ars-films/

[Irbis]

A Disney producer has confirmed that their canon for the new trilogy will be the films. They are effectively going to dump the EU, although there will be some inspiration from it in the Rebels cartoon.

I'd say not keeping Thrawn would be a bad idea... some time ago, anyway. Since then, Zahn produced a few really mediocre books so meh. I hope they can outdo old EU.

[Arawn Fenn]

Well this is the same Jedi order who not only completely ignored slavery happening in the outer rim

In other words, they didn't have jurisdiction there, nor did they have the authority to start a war between the Republic and the Hutts.

[Batman]

The term 'non-sequitur' comes to mind. The Jedi doing beans about slavery in the Outer Rim means they didn't have jurisdiction there because of what again?
And how, exactly, do you envision the Jedi actually doing something about the situation leading a)to a war between the Hutts and the OR and b) the Old Republic having a problem with that? (Actually I can think of a plethora of reasons for the latter but not a single one of them is because the Hutts are actually a credible threat).