The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

[Illuminatus Primus]

In novels written by KJA.

Wow. That's so relevent. You can't arbitrarily throw out canon, despite what you think on TF.net with your masturbating to the blue man.

If they are supported by fleets of other ships.

Oooo...Ahhh...in X-Wing: Iron Fist the MC80B was supported by a couple frigates and some corvettes (escort and patrol vessels). Negligible.

If they have help from the inside (Gara Pentathol, Callista)

Gara did nothing to aide Mon Remonda, and Callista did nothing to hurt the Knight Hammer's combat ability--so it stands that a MC90 can take a severe beating from an Executor-class with no support.

If the SSDs aren´t up to stats (Iron Fist might NOT be Executor-Class

Bullshit, its one of the original five commandships with the Lusankya and Executor generation.

and saw long and extreme campaigns (Zsinj started with a single sector and was holding one third of the galaxy in CoPL).

Prove that its combat ability was depleted to below ISD levels. Show this has diddly to do with a brand new advanced Executor-class like the Knight Hammer.

Stop trying to wish away evidence. I'm going to be unable to remain civil if you keep this shit up.

[Connor MacLeod]

In that case they wouldn´t have wrote "imperial" with a capital "I".

More semantics whoring. How utterly shocking.

I suppose in your little universe the proper title for the GE isn't capitalized either?

The problem is, that we are dealing with a source (or school of thinking at LFL) that claims "Home One" to be 1,200 meters long, ignores the existance of the bigger imperial ships seen in DE and other inconsistencies. Since the above is the only quote i know connected to the firepower of the Viscount the ship could be eight kilometers long and still "only" be able to engage an ISD (what would make it seriously underpowered).

So in addition to semantics whoring, you're attempting misdirection as well now that your little paper tiger's under threat of being crushed? Sorry, you lose. Concession accepted.

[Ender]

[quote="Ender]the length is the key bit that proves the distinction that they are seperate classes.

The Republic-Class-Star Destroyer is build by Rendili-Stardrives.

The Republic-Class-Cruiser by the Kuati.[/quote]Following the battle of Fondor, ship building was split up and sent all over the place. That, coupled with the number of systems lost, makes it very possible a Rendili design is being produced by KDY

The first is a star destroyer, the other a cruiser.

Both are cruisers. How often must I state this?

Should be enough to show, that they are different ships.

No.

All of them. Any ship can engage another, its just a question of who wins and by how much. thats why that sentance provides zero useful information.

On the contrary. It shows, that the NR designed one vessel after the other, that could engage an ISD, but wasn´t satisfied with anyone of them. The ISD was that good, that the empire built at least 25,000 of those things.

1) The empire built alot more then a quarter of a million. they are destroyers, the workhorse ofthe fleet. I MIGHT be able to buy a quarter of a million battleships, but not destroyers.
2) the word "engage" means jack shit. I can engage an aircrat carrier in battle if I'm in a pontoon boat with a 9mm. Doesn't give any sense to the relative abilities. They have built a large number of ships that can smack the shit out of an ISD. That doesn't mean that the ISD is that damn good and the kept revising them, it means that they developed a full OOB.

And as I said before, the weapons loadout and design makes the Republic class SD rate as a KDY scale cruiser.

Not according to the official line of thought.

Let me guess, you think a Destroyer is actuallty a battlecruiser, and an actual cruiser is weaker then a destroyer?

Besides, the Rendili-Class-SD is smaller and has comparable weapons compared to the KDY-SD, not some kind of KDY-scale cruiser we only briefly glimpsed in DE.

It is smaller yes, and has less patrol tiem as a result. But it has way more weapons then a SD. The damn thing is a SC, probably a SCH.

MC80B ad MC90 are both in the cruiser scale, so they should be able to hand an ISD its ass on a silver platter.

What makes you think a cruiser built by the MC can hand an KDY-SD its ass on a silver platter?

Aside from being faster, with better shields, heavier weapons, possibly more weapons, and a weapons layout that offers more coverage from their HTLs? And thats just the Home One type. Later versions are dedicated warships and even better. The fact that a couple of them could tangle with Executors with no problem says it all.

[Ender]

IP hammered this quite well, but as this is part of my debate with you I want to get my licks in as well.

What makes you think a cruiser built by the MC can hand an KDY-SD its ass on a silver platter?

Because they can go head-to-head with SSDs?

In novels written by KJA.

Author does not matter.

If they are supported by fleets of other ships.

Yeah, like two other SCs, a training Frigate, a marauder Corvette, and a quasar fire carrier?

Cruisers can take on battleships. This follows real life and common sense.

If they have help from the inside (Gara Pentathol, Callista)

Gara didn't do a single thing, and Callista pulled her sabatoge well after the Knight Hammer was getting owned.

If the SSDs aren´t up to stats (Iron Fist might NOT be Executor-Class

Brawl, later renamed Iron Fist, was a first run Executor class.

and saw long and extreme campaigns (Zsinj started with a single sector and was holding one third of the galaxy in CoPL).

It was also well supplied and armed and spent alot of time in the shipyard to keep it fit.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Bullshit, its one of the original five commandships with the Lusankya and Executor generation.

Nitpick. According to the NEGTC and EC there were only four original SSDs. The Executor built at Fondor, given to Vader; the Executor built at Kuat, renamed Lusankya, given to Isard; the Brawl given to Zsinj, renamed Iron Fist--I don't know the fourth though.

Now, I haven't read Iron Fist, so I am sort of grasping at straws here (but humor me will ya? ) but is it possible some of the guns of the Iron Fist were damaged in the attack of the Mon Remonda, and all simply shut down? For example, in Champions of the Force, the guns on the entire starboard side of the Gorgon are disabled when 6 Gamma-Class assualt shuttles attack it. Any chance at all?

On a final note, the Iron Fist was never severely damaged at any time before the Battle of Sellagis, where Zsinj pulled the Second Death ruse and escaped to Rancor Base.

[Ender]

Bullshit, its one of the original five commandships with the Lusankya and Executor generation.

Nitpick. According to the NEGTC and EC there were only four original SSDs. The Executor built at Fondor, given to Vader; the Executor built at Kuat, renamed Lusankya, given to Isard; the Brawl given to Zsinj, renamed Iron Fist--I don't know the fourth though.

Now, I haven't read Iron Fist, so I am sort of grasping at straws here (but humor me will ya? ) but is it possible some of the guns of the Iron Fist were damaged in the attack of the Mon Remonda, and all simply shut down? For example, in Champions of the Force, the guns on the entire starboard side of the Gorgon are disabled when 6 Gamma-Class assualt shuttles attack it. Any chance at all?

On a final note, the Iron Fist was never severely damaged at any time before the Battle of Sellagis, where Zsinj pulled the Second Death ruse and escaped to Rancor Base.

It's possible it took some damage in the raid on Kuat.

Infact that could explain what happened far more easily then trying to figure out angle of approach and what guns can be brought to bear. Going up agaisnt a tru KDY standard system defense fleet will take alot out of you, even if you are a battleship.

[FTeik]

Wow. That's so relevent. You can't arbitrarily throw out canon, despite what you think on TF.net with your masturbating to the blue man.

And twenty VSDs and one SSD against the "Galactic Voyager" are so credible. As well as Kyp Durron more powerful, than Luke and the emperor combined. Qui Xux the person solely responsible for the DeathStar and the World-Devastators. IG-88 trying to take over the universe in "Tales of the Bounty Hunters".

And where the hell am i masturbating to the blue man?

Oooo...Ahhh...in X-Wing: Iron Fist the MC80B was supported by a couple frigates and some corvettes (escort and patrol vessels). Negligible.

You forgot to memtion the fight agaist the imperial defenders at Kuat. And did they manage to destroy the Iron Fist? No. Zsinj knew, there was nothing for him to win there, so he withdrew. And since we are at it: If you insist on making the MC-Cruisers vastly more powerful, than their imperial counterparts, couldn´t the same be true for the frigates and corvettes of the NR as well?

Gara did nothing to aide Mon Remonda, and Callista did nothing to hurt the Knight Hammer's combat ability--so it stands that a MC90 can take a severe beating from an Executor-class with no support.

Read SoloCommand again. Gara and her droid were sabotaging the internal systems of the Iron Fist and my point about the Knighthammer was about her destruction not her fight against Galactic Voyager.

Bullshit, its one of the original five commandships with the Lusankya and Executor generation.

I meant, that the Iron Fist, given months of combat in campaigns to conquer one third of the former empire and after being hunted for half a year by New Republic and Empire alike wasn´t in the best shape.

Prove that its combat ability was depleted to below ISD levels. Show this has diddly to do with a brand new advanced Executor-class like the Knight Hammer.

Since the true condition of the Iron Fist is nowhere mentioned (as you should know) i can´t. But you have also no prove, that the ship is in top-condition. And giving the events taking place my scenario is more plausible than yours. Hell, the events of Wraith-Squadron centered around Zsinj´s efforts to keep his ship battle-worthy.

Stop trying to wish away evidence. I'm going to be unable to remain civil if you keep this shit up.

Shut up throwing insults. It doesn´t support your arguement. If you have an argument voice it and we can talk about it.

More semantics whoring. How utterly shocking.

No, the difference between an adjective (imperial as sign of political affilation) and a Substantive (Imperial like Imperial-Class-Stardestroyer).

So in addition to semantics whoring, you're attempting misdirection as well now that your little paper tiger's under threat of being crushed? Sorry, you lose. Concession accepted.

Misdirection? Did i wrote the NEGVV or was it somebody else? You can hardly blame me for the ideas of LFL and the people they give licenses to. Besides, this has nothing to do with my argument, but the root of our problems.

[/quote]Following the battle of Fondor, ship building was split up and sent all over the place. That, coupled with the number of systems lost, makes it very possible a Rendili design is being produced by KDY [/quote]

But you have no quote, no solid evidence to prove it, right?

So i shall accept an "very possible" brought up by you, while at the same time i´m nailed for making an argument on a possibility. Oh, the hypocrisy.

Both are cruisers. How often must I state this?

Both? I thought this argument was about them being one and the same kind of ship.

No.

Fine. In that case we´ll disagree on this until somebody at WOTC or elsewhere produces some stats for the Republic-Class-Cruiser, that are different from those of the Republic-Class-SD.

1) The empire built alot more then a quarter of a million. they are destroyers, the workhorse ofthe fleet. I MIGHT be able to buy a quarter of a million battleships, but not destroyers.

A quater of a million is a lot more than 25,000 (personally i would say, that a quater-million ISDs would be the upper limit). However, what´s your point.

2) the word "engage" means jack shit. I can engage an aircrat carrier in battle if I'm in a pontoon boat with a 9mm. Doesn't give any sense to the relative abilities. They have built a large number of ships that can smack the shit out of an ISD. That doesn't mean that the ISD is that damn good and the kept revising them, it means that they developed a full OOB.

Fine about the engage. In that case we have "jack shit" data about the abilities of the Viscount in contrast to other ships. I hope you are happy about it.

As for your full Order of Battle. Do you think you can have a workable OOB with a dozen different ship-classes, that all occupy the same position?

Let me guess, you think a Destroyer is actuallty a battlecruiser, and an actual cruiser is weaker then a destroyer?

No, i think that when an author calls a ship "star destroyer" in SW he usually means a ship bigger than ship he calls cruiser. If a cruiser would exeede a star destroyer in size, this would be viewed as important enough to be mentioned.

Not that i agree with that, but thats what you seem to think.

It is smaller yes, and has less patrol tiem as a result. But it has way more weapons then a SD. The damn thing is a SC, probably a SCH.

You obviously didn´t read the stats i provided for the Republic-Class-SD. It has less.

Aside from being faster, with better shields, heavier weapons, possibly more weapons, and a weapons layout that offers more coverage from their HTLs?

If you compare the official stats, you will discover that with exception of the MC90 all of those ships have less numbers and less powerful weapons. And even considering the other factors, they shouldn´t be able to go toe-to-toe with a super star destroyer.

And thats just the Home One type. Later versions are dedicated warships and even better. The fact that a couple of them could tangle with Executors with no problem says it all.

So while the "Home One", which is a converted luxury-liner and vastly bigger, than the ordinary MC-Cruiser can fight an Exector on its own (lets just forget over the other rebel-cruisers at Endor, and that the attack run of the A-Wings would have only resulted in the loss of the bridge, if the ship hadn´t rammed the DeathStar), according to your logic the same is true for the 1,200 meter long ones. Yeah, that makes sense, but only to you. And the MC90 was the first dedicated warship and they appeared AFTER the time of TTT, not during X-Wing:WraithSquadron. I think i already covered the conditon of the Executors (more than one? where besides Knight-Hammer and Iron Fist?).

Author does not matter.

Unfortunately yes. So we are cursed with 8 km long Executors, 15 meter high AT-ATs, 1,200 meter long MC-Cruisers (despite your hoping for it to be otherwise), 250 sectors in the unknown regions, an important strategic position only guarded by a garrison without a full wing of fighters, Palpatine trying to replace Kinman Doriana with Vader, Thrawn and Mara Jade, 1,200,000 clone-troopers and more time for the Kaminoans, if more are needed (before anybody argues Lama Su was NOT major of one city, but the prime-minister of the entire planet, the superlaser using neutrinos to pierce through planetary shields, ... shall i continue?

Cruisers can take on battleships. This follows real life and common sense.

Only if they are better armed. An MC40 and a Carrack are cruisers, too.

It was also well supplied and armed and spent alot of time in the shipyard to keep it fit.

Evidence? A quote perhaps, besides her unfortunate end over Dathomir?

[Ender]

Wow. That's so relevent. You can't arbitrarily throw out canon, despite what you think on TF.net with your masturbating to the blue man.

And twenty VSDs and one SSD against the "Galactic Voyager" are so credible. As well as Kyp Durron more powerful, than Luke and the emperor combined. Qui Xux the person solely responsible for the DeathStar and the World-Devastators. IG-88 trying to take over the universe in "Tales of the Bounty Hunters".

Red Herrings. You can't just ignore it if you don't want to address it.

Oooo...Ahhh...in X-Wing: Iron Fist the MC80B was supported by a couple frigates and some corvettes (escort and patrol vessels). Negligible.

You forgot to memtion the fight agaist the imperial defenders at Kuat. And did they manage to destroy the Iron Fist? No. Zsinj knew, there was nothing for him to win there, so he withdrew. And since we are at it: If you insist on making the MC-Cruisers vastly more powerful, than their imperial counterparts, couldn´t the same be true for the frigates and corvettes of the NR as well?

I really can't figure where you are going with this: Cruisers are more powerful in the movies then oficial displays, thus dealing with what you consider to be a contradiction, so this makes picket ships better as a result?

Gara did nothing to aide Mon Remonda, and Callista did nothing to hurt the Knight Hammer's combat ability--so it stands that a MC90 can take a severe beating from an Executor-class with no support.

Read SoloCommand again. Gara and her droid were sabotaging the internal systems of the Iron Fist and my point about the Knighthammer was about her destruction not her fight against Galactic Voyager.

Gara took out he hyperdrive. Not real critical to the ship in a fight. In fact she asks and is told she can't take down shileds or anything.

Bullshit, its one of the original five commandships with the Lusankya and Executor generation.

I meant, that the Iron Fist, given months of combat in campaigns to conquer one third of the former empire and after being hunted for half a year by New Republic and Empire alike wasn´t in the best shape.

bullshit, that's not at all what you meant, you specifically said it might not be an Executor class.

Prove that its combat ability was depleted to below ISD levels. Show this has diddly to do with a brand new advanced Executor-class like the Knight Hammer.

Since the true condition of the Iron Fist is nowhere mentioned (as you should know) i can´t. But you have also no prove, that the ship is in top-condition.

Yes, but you are making the claim, not him.

And giving the events taking place my scenario is more plausible than yours. Hell, the events of Wraith-Squadron centered around Zsinj´s efforts to keep his ship battle-worthy.

Yes, over the long term. Short term the thing was still raring to go.

More semantics whoring. How utterly shocking.

No, the difference between an adjective (imperial as sign of political affilation) and a Substantive (Imperial like Imperial-Class-Stardestroyer).

Imperial would be capitaziled just like the class name would because the names of nations are always capitalized, just like personal names. If you wnat to get picky like that, Connor is even more correct becasue if they were describing a specific class then "imperial" would have been in italics the smae way Viscount was.

So in addition to semantics whoring, you're attempting misdirection as well now that your little paper tiger's under threat of being crushed? Sorry, you lose. Concession accepted.

Misdirection? Did i wrote the NEGVV or was it somebody else? You can hardly blame me for the ideas of LFL and the people they give licenses to. Besides, this has nothing to do with my argument, but the root of our problems.

the fact that it has nothing to do with the argument is specifically why he said it was misdirection you twat.

Following the battle of Fondor, ship building was split up and sent all over the place. That, coupled with the number of systems lost, makes it very possible a Rendili design is being produced by KDY

But you have no quote, no solid evidence to prove it, right?

Actually, NEGVV indicates that, like Rontah Heavy Engineering, Rendilli Stardrives was a sub company. See the entry in the front where it states they built the KDY design Victory Star Destroyer. So while my theory was right, my position is correct.

So i shall accept an "very possible" brought up by you, while at the same time i´m nailed for making an argument on a possibility. Oh, the hypocrisy.

Bitch bitch bitch, you are still wrong wrong wrong.

Both are cruisers. How often must I state this?

Both? I thought this argument was about them being one and the same kind of ship.[/quote]*sigh* Your arguement there was that since one was a destroyer and the other a cruiser, they must be different. I have repeatedly pointed out that both are cruisers, so they could be the same ship.

No.

Fine. In that case we´ll disagree on this until somebody at WOTC or elsewhere produces some stats for the Republic-Class-Cruiser, that are different from those of the Republic-Class-SD.

So I've argued you to the ground, and rather then conceed you just say "give me more time so I can get newer evidence". that's akin to a creationist insit that the debate be posponed until the Revelation happens so they cna prove there is a god.

1) The empire built alot more then a quarter of a million. they are destroyers, the workhorse ofthe fleet. I MIGHT be able to buy a quarter of a million battleships, but not destroyers.

A quater of a million is a lot more than 25,000 (personally i would say, that a quater-million ISDs would be the upper limit). However, what´s your point.

Excuse me for misreading an extra zero. I want to know what the hell makes you think that 250,000 destroyers is an upper limit.


We know that ISDs throw out somewhere around 1x10^24 watts

We have the Dondonna quote from ANH.

Even if we assume that he was talking the time averaged power of the shot and not its actual power, that gives us 1 billion ships. Destroyers, the workhorses of the fleet, are gong to be the bulk of this. Yet you think that there is only a quarter of a million of them

2) the word "engage" means jack shit. I can engage an aircrat carrier in battle if I'm in a pontoon boat with a 9mm. Doesn't give any sense to the relative abilities. They have built a large number of ships that can smack the shit out of an ISD. That doesn't mean that the ISD is that damn good and the kept revising them, it means that they developed a full OOB.

Fine about the engage. In that case we have "jack shit" data about the abilities of the Viscount in contrast to other ships. I hope you are happy about it.

Bullshit, its twice the size of and more powerful then a battlecruiser, and we have a general idea of how strong a battlecruiser is based off of how strong destroyers and cruisers are. We still have data.

As for your full Order of Battle. Do you think you can have a workable OOB with a dozen different ship-classes, that all occupy the same position?

I actually have a nice little table on my computer where I am currently trying to work in all known classes to their roles. So I can confidently say yes, i can squeeze all those ships in because contrary to your position they aren't all the same.

Let me guess, you think a Destroyer is actuallty a battlecruiser, and an actual cruiser is weaker then a destroyer?

No, i think that when an author calls a ship "star destroyer" in SW he usually means a ship bigger than ship he calls cruiser.

Destroyers are bigger then cruisers. Right

If a cruiser would exeede a star destroyer in size, this would be viewed as important enough to be mentioned.

You mena like how Home One is specifically called a "Star Cruiser"? Or how we have 'Star Battlecruisers", "Star Dreadnaughts" and "Star Frigates"

Not that i agree with that, but thats what you seem to think.

Wow, nice of you to totally distort my position.

It is smaller yes, and has less patrol tiem as a result. But it has way more weapons then a SD. The damn thing is a SC, probably a SCH.

You obviously didn´t read the stats i provided for the Republic-Class-SD. It has less.

I didn't realize 80 was less then 64.

And that's me ignoring the fact that a battery is 5 guns, so that brings total guns up to 240, whereas the ISD2 has something like 190 total guns, most of which are medium and lights.

Aside from being faster, with better shields, heavier weapons, possibly more weapons, and a weapons layout that offers more coverage from their HTLs?

If you compare the official stats, you will discover that with exception of the MC90 all of those ships have less numbers and less powerful weapons.

And if we go by the canon, I'm right. A month or so ago I did a it of study on Mon Cal capabilities. I figured mass and scaled engine thrust. I examined weapons size and number. I looked through shielding theories. End result: Mon Cal cruisers were specifically designed to fight Imperial vessesl of similar and greater tonnage, and succeed very well.

And even considering the other factors, they shouldn´t be able to go toe-to-toe with a super star destroyer.

Individually? No. But two or three accompanied with smaller vessels can and did in ROTJ. Which is, funny, what we see in the novels.

And thats just the Home One type. Later versions are dedicated warships and even better. The fact that a couple of them could tangle with Executors with no problem says it all.

So while the "Home One", which is a converted luxury-liner and vastly bigger, than the ordinary MC-Cruiser can fight an Exector on its own (lets just forget over the other rebel-cruisers at Endor, and that the attack run of the A-Wings would have only resulted in the loss of the bridge, if the ship hadn´t rammed the DeathStar), according to your logic the same is true for the 1,200 meter long ones.

I'm not forgetting any of that, you are just strawmanning the hell out of my argument. I have consistently said a few cruisrs and some smaller ships could down a SSD. What do we see in the movies? A cruiser and 2-3 destroyers and some smaller ships take out a SSD. And the Executor was going down with or without the DS2, it hit it because they knew it was dead and onthe run. It had no shields and was surrounded by hositles. And the mon clas that WEG labels at 1200 meters scale to 1500 meters.

Yeah, that makes sense, but only to you. And the MC90 was the first dedicated warship

Mon Remonda was dedicated to war

and they appeared AFTER the time of TTT, not during X-Wing:WraithSquadron. I think i already covered the conditon of the Executors (more than one? where besides Knight-Hammer and Iron Fist?).

Lets review: Converted Mon Cal SDs have dozens of ISD 1 type HTLs on them and can canonically go toe to toe with ISDs. Later versions like the Mon Remonda are suppossedly more powerful. And you think I am off in saying that these later versions that are more powerful can do better?

Author does not matter.

Unfortunately yes. So we are cursed with 8 km long Executors,

Movies over rule official

15 meter high AT-ATs,

Movies over rule official

1,200 meter long MC-Cruisers (despite your hoping for it to be otherwise),

Movies overrule official, smallest cruisers at Endor were 1500 meters so it has zero to do with me "hoping" for anything

250 sectors in the unknown regions,

Sector size determined by number of key systems, thus a number of densly developed world will allow for smaller sectors and let them fit in a smaller region.

an important strategic position only guarded by a garrison without a full wing of fighters,

This would be...?

Palpatine trying to replace Kinman Doriana with Vader, Thrawn and Mara Jade,

Yes, an experienced and trusted public face to deal with things and spin your actions and also handle covert things is difficult.

1,200,000 clone-troopers

Canon statement

and more time for the Kaminoans, if more are needed (before anybody argues Lama Su was NOT major of one city, but the prime-minister of the entire planet,

Don't see the point of the rest of this sentence here.

the superlaser using neutrinos to pierce through planetary shields,

Violates physics and thus falls before the DET theory which is supported by the canon

... shall i continue?

No thanks, that is enough red herrings for one day. Your bullshit is more tiresome then helping your position here.

Cruisers can take on battleships. This follows real life and common sense.

Only if they are better armed. An MC40 and a Carrack are cruisers, too.[/quote]What are you smoking? Those were picket ships at best.

It was also well supplied and armed and spent alot of time in the shipyard to keep it fit.

Evidence? A quote perhaps, besides her unfortunate end over Dathomir?[/quote]I can't provide direct quotes as my novels are half the country away. But he returned to Rancor base to effect repairs and oversee the testing of the Second Death project, so that is atleast one time.

[Ender]

You know, I really should have run that last post through a spell checker first.

[Slartibartfast]

While we're on that, I'd like to point that the thread starter misspelled "wessels".

[Lord Poe]

And twenty VSDs and one SSD against the "Galactic Voyager" are so credible.

Source on this? Quote?

As well as Kyp Durron more powerful, than Luke and the emperor combined.

Kyp was posessed by a powerful Sith lord. Proof this Sith lord was more powerful than Palpatine? Quotes?

Qui Xux the person solely responsible for the DeathStar and the World-Devastators.

Wrong. Read the book again.

IG-88 trying to take over the universe in "Tales of the Bounty Hunters".

Wrong. Read the book again.

Read SoloCommand again. Gara and her droid were sabotaging the internal systems of the Iron Fist and my point about the Knighthammer was about her destruction not her fight against Galactic Voyager.

Clarify. What was your point?

Unfortunately yes. So we are cursed with 8 km long Executors,

No we're not. Overridden by canon.

15 meter high AT-ATs,

Overridden by canon.

1,200 meter long MC-Cruisers (despite your hoping for it to be otherwise),

And how is his point disproven?

250 sectors in the unknown regions,

And this means what, exactly?

an important strategic position only guarded by a garrison without a full wing of fighters,

Source? Quote?

Palpatine trying to replace Kinman Doriana with Vader,

Source? Quote?

Thrawn and Mara Jade,

Clarify. Are you saying Palpatine was trying to replace Vader with Thrawn and Mara Jade?

1,200,000 clone-troopers and more time for the Kaminoans, if more are needed (before anybody argues Lama Su was NOT major of one city, but the prime-minister of the entire planet,

Quit being so fucking vague. What are attempting to say here?

the superlaser using neutrinos to pierce through planetary shields, ...

Clarify. Source? Quote?

shall i continue?

Only if you can form an argument instead of tossing straws in the air.

[FTeik]

Red Herrings. You can't just ignore it if you don't want to address it.

I don´t ignore it. I try to put them into perspective

I really can't figure where you are going with this: Cruisers are more powerful in the movies then oficial displays, thus dealing with what you consider to be a contradiction, so this makes picket ships better as a result?

IP´s argument, that the MC-Cruisers were superior to the ISDs, despite being converted civilian ships and smaller.

And where in the movies? May i quote Admiral Ackbar: "We won´t last long against those star destroyers."

Gara took out he hyperdrive. Not real critical to the ship in a fight. In fact she asks and is told she can't take down shileds or anything.

Fine. But i just looked into SoloCommand again. On page 392 we get a glimpse at the forces arrayed against the Iron Fist: Three MC-Cruisers, one star destroyer and the carrier Quasar-Fire. Nothing about a few frigates and corvettes.

bullshit, that's not at all what you meant, you specifically said it might not be an Executor class.

I also said, the Iron Fist might not have been up to stats and thats the point i answered.

Yes, but you are making the claim, not him.

True.

Lets turn this around: What prove do we have, that the Iron Fist was in top-condition?

Yes, over the long term. Short term the thing was still raring to go.

Of course you have a source to quote to prove this.

According to the EC Zsinj went rogue almost the moment he heard of Palpatines death. Over a time-frame of three years he conquered one third of the galaxy (starting with a single sector) and waged war against the NR and the empire at the same time. How long do you want "long term" to be?

No, the difference between an adjective (imperial as sign of political affilation) and a Substantive (Imperial like Imperial-Class-Stardestroyer).

Imperial would be capitaziled just like the class name would because the names of nations are always capitalized, just like personal names. If you wnat to get picky like that, Connor is even more correct becasue if they were describing a specific class then "imperial" would have been in italics the smae way Viscount was.

Well, i might sound picky, but "Imperial (-class) Star Destroyer" is what the author of that quote had in mind, people, who read it will see and what we will get, if future authors use the NEGVV to base their work on it.

And if anybody argues, that the intention was the Viscount to be able to engage an Allegiance or an Executor, that is also nitpicking.

Don´t you think, an author, who wants to impress the fan-boys wouldn´t have written "can engage a Super Star Destroyer", if the ship would be able to do so? You might have an argument, if there are other quotes, that show the situation to be different and if you know, please tell me. I would like nothing more, than to forget about that NEGVV-entry.

the fact that it has nothing to do with the argument is specifically why he said it was misdirection you twat.

Misdirection? While that point had nothing to do with the arguement itself, it describes how things are.

Actually, NEGVV indicates that, like Rontah Heavy Engineering, Rendilli Stardrives was a sub company. See the entry in the front where it states they built the KDY design Victory Star Destroyer. So while my theory was right, my position is correct.

Indicates, aha. But it is still no solid prove. Yet the moment i base an argument on something, that is only indicated or not written out in capital letters for every idiot to understand, i´m a twat.

Until now the Victory was a Rendili-design and the company no sub-company of KDY. And even if Rendili was taken over by KDY during the time-frame from AotC (the AotC:ICS describes it as competing company to KDY) till NJO, why would Destiny´s Way speak about Republic-Class-Cruisers and NOT Republic-Class-Star Destroyers?

Bitch bitch bitch, you are still wrong wrong wrong.

And still you have no proof, proof, proof.


[/quote]*sigh* Your arguement there was that since one was a destroyer and the other a cruiser, they must be different. I have repeatedly pointed out that both are cruisers, so they could be the same ship. [/quote]

*sigh* Just that the one is a Republic-Class-Star Destroyer built by a company, that, with exception of the NEGVV, every other source describes as competitor and not subsidiary of KDY and the other is a Republic-Class-Cruiser.

Fine. In that case we´ll disagree on this until somebody at WOTC or elsewhere produces some stats for the Republic-Class-Cruiser, that are different from those of the Republic-Class-SD.

So I've argued you to the ground, and rather then conceed you just say "give me more time so I can get newer evidence". that's akin to a creationist insit that the debate be posponed until the Revelation happens so they cna prove there is a god.

No. My arguments about DIFFERENT classifications and DIFFERENT manufactures of the two ships weren´t enough to penetrate that thick skull of yours, while your wishful thinking makes you claim them to be the same ship, with no other real evidence, as that both are called "Republic" and since i have no other argument at the moment, i think it pointless to continue.

And comparing me of being a creationist is one of those debating-facilites, you are so eager to accuse me of commiting.

Excuse me for misreading an extra zero. I want to know what the hell makes you think that 250,000 destroyers is an upper limit.

The imperial order of battle shown in the diagrams of the ISB and a quote from the Rebellion or Rebel-Alliance-Sourcebook, that the empire doubled its forces in the time between Yavin and Endor, as well as the ratio of major worlds in comparison to star destroyers in the fleet in "Spectres of the past". But as long as nobody clearifies on the 25,000-number from the same novel, that is only wishful thinking on my part.

We know that ISDs throw out somewhere around 1x10^24 watts

We have the Dondonna quote from ANH.

Even if we assume that he was talking the time averaged power of the shot and not its actual power, that gives us 1 billion ships. Destroyers, the workhorses of the fleet, are gong to be the bulk of this. Yet you think that there is only a quarter of a million of them

And the moment the ISD throws out 1*10^26 watts you are down to ten million ships. Not to mention bigger ships, than the ISD, gadgets like the Tarkin-Battlestation, Executors, Torpedo-Spheres and so on. Even Dreadnoughts should throw out 10^24 Watts, since they are able to execute BDZ-operations in A.C.Crispins Han Solo-trilogy.

Fine about the engage. In that case we have "jack shit" data about the abilities of the Viscount in contrast to other ships. I hope you are happy about it.

Bullshit, its twice the size of and more powerful then a battlecruiser, and we have a general idea of how strong a battlecruiser is based off of how strong destroyers and cruisers are. We still have data.

No, we only know, that it is twice the size of a battlecruiser. We don´t know, if its more powerful. For that we have to look how it performs in battle.

I actually have a nice little table on my computer where I am currently trying to work in all known classes to their roles. So I can confidently say yes, i can squeeze all those ships in because contrary to your position they aren't all the same.

Hmm, lets see:

MC80a:
crew: ~ 5,200
troops: ~ 1,200
weapons: 48 Turbolaser, 20 Ion-Cannons
fighters: 6 squadrons

MC80b:
crew: ~ 5,200
troops: ~1,200
weapons: 48 Turbolasers, 20 Ion-Cannons
fighters: 4-8 squadrons
differences to MC80: better shielding and reinforced hull

MC90:
crew: ~ 5,900
troops: ~ 1,700
weapons: 75 Turbolaser-Batteries, 30 Ion-Cannons, 6 Missile-Launchers
fighters: 6 squadrons

Republic-Class-SD:
crew: ~8,600
troops: ~3,200
weapons: 40 Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons, 40 Heavy Turbolaser-Batteries, 20 Ion-Cannons
fighters: 6 squadrons


Defender-Class-SD:
crew: ~6,900
troops: ~1,600
weapons: 40 Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons, 40 Heavy Turbolaser-Batteries, 20 Ion-Cannons, 8 Missile-Launchers
fighters: 6 squadrons

Nebula-Class-SD:
crew: ~6,900
troops: ~1,600
weapons: 40 Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons, 40 Heavy Turbolaser-Batteries, 20 Ion-Cannons, 8 Missile-Launchers
fighters: 6 squadrons

Majestic-Class-Heavy Cruiser:
crew: ~4,200
troops: ~ 640
weapons: 30 Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons, 20 Laser-Cannons, 20 Ion-Cannons, 8 Missile-Launchers

With individual exceptions all ships have crews between 5,000 and 7,000 men, carry a number of troops between 1,200 and 1,700 men and have 4-6 squadrons of fighters. The major differences start with the weapons, especially with the Turbolasers, Heavy Turbolasers and Turbolaser-Batteries.
While i have no idea how to resolve this, i find it highly unlikely, that the NR produced the first ship, improved the number and power of weapons and continued to build models of the older ship, when everything else was the same, but with more firepower.

But if you have found an individual position for each one of them in the NR OOB, lets hear it.

Destroyers are bigger then cruisers. Right

Carrack-Class Light Cruiser: 350 meters
Dreadnought-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters
Strike-Class Medium Cruiser: 450 meters
Vindicator-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters (built by KDY, according to WOTC)
Enforcer-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters
Majestic-Class Heavy Cruiser: 700 meters

You and i both know, that this is wrong, but it is still the way things are done in the GFFA. The only possible solution i see for getting things more akin to the real world is to expand the classification-system with the prefix "star"

star frigate (what would cover all ships mentioned above)
star destroyer
star cruiser
star battlecruiser
star battleship

Wow, nice of you to totally distort my position.

Your position? Your position is, that i think a cruiser to be smaller than a destroyer, while i should have already cleared, that this isn´t the case. Didn´t you understand, that i was only explaining how this classification-issue is handled in the official literature?

I didn't realize 80 was less then 64.

60 Turbolasers and 60 Ion-Cannons for the ISD-I, 50 Heavy Turbolaser-Batteries and Fifty Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons and 20 Ion-cannons for the ISDII.

Before you complain, that this doesn´t fit with what we see in the movies, i want to make clear, that for a working comparison we have to convert movie-stats to official stats. What means, that the weapons of a EU-ship would be different in a movie, but still in the original ratio in comparison to the ISD. I´m aware of the difficulties of that, but if you have another idea, let me know.

And if we go by the canon, I'm right. A month or so ago I did a it of study on Mon Cal capabilities. I figured mass and scaled engine thrust. I examined weapons size and number. I looked through shielding theories. End result: Mon Cal cruisers were specifically designed to fight Imperial vessesl of similar and greater tonnage, and succeed very well.

In other words Mon Cal-cruisers are superior, but i´m to lazy to describe why. You have chackled, chicken, now lay.

Individually? No. But two or three accompanied with smaller vessels can and did in ROTJ. Which is, funny, what we see in the novels.

Including the much more powerful "Home One", A-Wings able to exploit the failure of the bridge-deflectorshield and the Executor ramming the DeathStar.

I'm not forgetting any of that, you are just strawmanning the hell out of my argument. I have consistently said a few cruisrs and some smaller ships could down a SSD. What do we see in the movies? A cruiser and 2-3 destroyers and some smaller ships take out a SSD. And the Executor was going down with or without the DS2, it hit it because they knew it was dead and onthe run. It had no shields and was surrounded by hositles. And the mon clas that WEG labels at 1200 meters scale to 1500 meters.

No problem with a few cruisers. But the way i understood IPs post, it was one cruiser and a couple of frigates and corvettes.
Home One is still three times bigger, than the other cruisers size- and masswise. The Executor wasn´t dead. It had lost its bridge-deflectorshields, not all of its shields. And it wasn´t on the run, it crashed into the DeathStar. Piett doesn´t order "lets run away", he orders "increase fire with the frontal batteries".

Mon Remonda was dedicated to war

But still based on a pleasure-liner.

Lets review: Converted Mon Cal SDs have dozens of ISD 1 type HTLs on them and can canonically go toe to toe with ISDs. Later versions like the Mon Remonda are suppossedly more powerful. And you think I am off in saying that these later versions that are more powerful can do better?

According to canon, they can´t (see the Ackbar-quote). I don´t doubt later versions are more powerful. I only question if only three of them can defeat a SSD, without one of them being as powerful as Home One. If the GFFA is technologically stagnant, how can they put more weapons, that are more powerful and improved shielding into a shiphull, that is already smaller by at least 20 percent and (for the later versions) be superior to the ISDs? And why didn´t the empire find a way to do so?

Movies over rule official

The Viscount is official. The stats of MC80, MC90 and so on are official. If vessels in the rebel-fleet at Endor are bigger, how can they belong to those classes. And even if, why shouldn´t there be other differences besides the lenght?

Movies overrule official, smallest cruisers at Endor were 1500 meters so it has zero to do with me "hoping" for anything

Actually i meant IP´s ideas about the MC90 being bigger, than the official 1,255 meters.

Sector size determined by number of key systems, thus a number of densly developed world will allow for smaller sectors and let them fit in a smaller region.

Don´t let IP hear that. I wanted to point at things in the EU, that are, well, questionable or dubious.

This would be...?

Borleias in X-Wing: RogueSquadron.

Yes, an experienced and trusted public face to deal with things and spin your actions and also handle covert things is difficult.

One has to wonder, what kind of man Kinman Dorianna was, if Palpatine needed Vader, Thrawn and Mara Jade to replace him. And why not one of the other GA´s? At this point Zahn is overdoing it.

1,200,000 clone-troopers

Canon statement

Exactly that. Don´t you think that number to be a bit low to start a war and the conquest of a galaxy with?

quote:

the superlaser using neutrinos to pierce through planetary shields,

Violates physics and thus falls before the DET theory which is supported by the canon

Yet this is official explenation of the workings of the superlaser in the DESB.

No thanks, that is enough red herrings for one day. Your bullshit is more tiresome then helping your position here.

Red Herrings? Bullshit? What i want to make clear is, that the EU isn´t infallable or consistent and if there are inconsistencies, we have to find a way to rationalize them.

Evidence? A quote perhaps, besides her unfortunate end over Dathomir?

I can't provide direct quotes as my novels are half the country away. But he returned to Rancor base to effect repairs and oversee the testing of the Second Death project, so that is atleast one time.
[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Bullshit, its one of the original five commandships with the Lusankya and Executor generation.

Nitpick. According to the NEGTC and EC there were only four original SSDs. The Executor built at Fondor, given to Vader; the Executor built at Kuat, renamed Lusankya, given to Isard; the Brawl given to Zsinj, renamed Iron Fist--I don't know the fourth though.

I believe the fourth Executor-class vessel was modified and equipped with a cloaking device--and becomes the HIMS Terror from Rebel Assault II.

Now, I haven't read Iron Fist, so I am sort of grasping at straws here (but humor me will ya? ) but is it possible some of the guns of the Iron Fist were damaged in the attack of the Mon Remonda, and all simply shut down? For example, in Champions of the Force, the guns on the entire starboard side of the Gorgon are disabled when 6 Gamma-Class assualt shuttles attack it. Any chance at all?

The Mon Remonda was barely getting through the shields (IIRC a few bleedthroughs got there by the time it hyped) and couldn't disable all the weapons. And given that an Executor-class is more tied to a commandship/supercarrier role, its weapons are also destroyer-scale and I believe for defense, mostly, and I don't see a reason why those weapons would be so centralized on the Iron Fist, but I suppose its technically plausable.

On a final note, the Iron Fist was never severely damaged at any time before the Battle of Sellagis, where Zsinj pulled the Second Death ruse and escaped to Rancor Base.

The point of contention is that the Mon Remonda was able to weather extended combat with the Iron Fist, and Mon Remonda's broadside outgunned the entire forward weapon complement of the Iron Fist (on a wedge/knife-shaped vessel, that should be mostly all the weapons, or at least good percentage).

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Okay, I got to take a look at it today at the Union after my last class.

It's really lame. And some of the illustrations are from absolutely attrocious angles.

I noticed that they used the incorrect depiction of the Outrider from the previous version, with the Falcon-esque engine section and docking ring. And not just for the schematic, but for the illustration, too.

That's damn lazy in my opinion.

[Ender]

Red Herrings. You can't just ignore it if you don't want to address it.

I don´t ignore it. I try to put them into perspective

Bullshit, you were making a direct attempt to try and get it tossed out.

I really can't figure where you are going with this: Cruisers are more powerful in the movies then oficial displays, thus dealing with what you consider to be a contradiction, so this makes picket ships better as a result?

IP´s argument, that the MC-Cruisers were superior to the ISDs, despite being converted civilian ships and smaller.

Which has what to do with picket ships?

And where in the movies?

Gun numbers and power chiefly.

May i quote Admiral Ackbar: "We won´t last long against those star destroyers."

May I point out that was in reference to the whole fleet, which had a little over a dozen cruisers/destroyers, and most were picket ships, gunboats and transports. Ackbar was totally correct; the Destroyers would have shredded the smaller craft and then could have ganged up on the destroyers and cruisers.

Gara took out he hyperdrive. Not real critical to the ship in a fight. In fact she asks and is told she can't take down shileds or anything.

Fine. But i just looked into SoloCommand again. On page 392 we get a glimpse at the forces arrayed against the Iron Fist: Three MC-Cruisers, one star destroyer and the carrier Quasar-Fire. Nothing about a few frigates and corvettes.

I was referring to Iron Fist with the frigates and corvettes.

bullshit, that's not at all what you meant, you specifically said it might not be an Executor class.

I also said, the Iron Fist might not have been up to stats and thats the point i answered.

So you respond with something totally irrelevant in my response to the fact you are wrong?

Yes, but you are making the claim, not him.

True.

Lets turn this around: What prove do we have, that the Iron Fist was in top-condition?

Let me get this straight, I point out that you are shifting burden of proof, you concede that you are, then turn around and try to shift burden of proof again? Are you trying to get VI status?

Yes, over the long term. Short term the thing was still raring to go.

Of course you have a source to quote to prove this.

Zsinj's conversation with Melvar in Solo Command has re-establishment of businesses as a long-term goal, while maintaining the Iron Fist was short term.

According to the EC Zsinj went rogue almost the moment he heard of Palpatines death. Over a time-frame of three years he conquered one third of the galaxy (starting with a single sector) and waged war against the NR and the empire at the same time. How long do you want "long term" to be?

You start needing things over the long term as soon as you start losing resources, not gaining them you idiot.

No, the difference between an adjective (imperial as sign of political affilation) and a Substantive (Imperial like Imperial-Class-Stardestroyer).

Imperial would be capitalized just like the class name would because the names of nations are always capitalized, just like personal names. If you want to get picky like that, Connor is even more correct because if they were describing a specific class then "imperial" would have been in italics the same way Viscount was.

Well, i might sound picky, but "Imperial (-class) Star Destroyer" is what the author of that quote had in mind, people, who read it will see and what we will get, if future authors use the NEGVV to base their work on it.

If he meant a specific class, he would have put it in italics like he did for every other ship in the book.

And if anybody argues, that the intention was the Viscount to be able to engage an Allegiance or an Executor, that is also nitpicking.

Don´t you think, an author, who wants to impress the fan-boys wouldn´t have written "can engage a Super Star Destroyer", if the ship would be able to do so? You might have an argument, if there are other quotes, that show the situation to be different and if you know, please tell me. I would like nothing more, than to forget about that NEGVV-entry.

As you have already conceded and I have shown, the wording is two vague for any useful information to be drawn from it what so ever. So since you already conceded it, I have to ask, why the fuck did you bring it back up?

the fact that it has nothing to do with the argument is specifically why he said it was misdirection you twat.

Misdirection? While that point had nothing to do with the arguement itself, it describes how things are.

Ok, for the benefit of those who don’t understand words that are composed of more then one syllable (eg: YOU!), I’ll repeat this.

Since it is not relevant, trying to steer the discussion that way is misdirection.

Seriously, have you ever debated before in your life?

Actually, NEGVV indicates that, like Ronthana Heavy Engineering, Rendilli Stardrives was a sub company. See the entry in the front where it states they built the KDY design Victory Star Destroyer. So while my theory was right, my position is correct.

Indicates, aha. But it is still no solid prove.

Yes, it is solid proof. You don't have a company you don't own build something that you can do yourself unless you like flushing money down the toilet.

Yet the moment i base an argument on something, that is only indicated or not written out in capital letters for every idiot to understand, i´m a twat.

You've been playing the name game, throwing out red herrings, and pulling things out of your ass this entire time, quit your bitching.

Until now the Victory was a Rendili-design and the company no sub-company of KDY.

New information overrides official

And even if Rendili was taken over by KDY during the time-frame from AotC (the AotC:ICS describes it as competing company to KDY) till NJO, why would Destiny´s Way speak about Republic-Class-Cruisers and NOT Republic-Class-Star Destroyers?

The weapons load out and corresponding power of the Republic class puts it in the cruiser-heavy cruiser range. I've said this repeatedly throughout the thread.

Bitch bitch bitch, you are still wrong wrong wrong.

And still you have no proof, proof, proof.

I've shown the are the same class, have the same manufacture, and shot down every theory you have tossed up. You on the other hand have pulled numbers from your ass, posted red herrings, and chosen to repeatedly ignore what I have to say.

*sigh* Your argument there was that since one was a destroyer and the other a cruiser, they must be different. I have repeatedly pointed out that both are cruisers, so they could be the same ship.

*sigh* Just that the one is a Republic-Class-Star Destroyer built by a company, that, with exception of the NEGVV, every other source describes as competitor and not subsidiary of KDY and the other is a Republic-Class-Cruiser.

Jesus fucking Buddah, can you read? For the 6th time in this thread:

THE WEAPONS LOADOUT AND RESPECTIVE POWER SHOW THE REPUBLIC CLASS VESSEL TO BE A CRUISER, THUS NEGATING YOUR ATTEMPTS AT THE NAME GAME

It outguns anything in the destroyer range, and since new information overrides old it has the same manufacture. There is ZERO evidence they are different ships.

Fine. In that case we´ll disagree on this until somebody at WOTC or elsewhere produces some stats for the Republic-Class-Cruiser, that are different from those of the Republic-Class-SD.

So I've argued you to the ground, and rather then concede you just say "give me more time so I can get newer evidence". that's akin to a creationist insist that the debate be postponed until the Revelation happens so they can prove there is a god.

No. My arguments about DIFFERENT classifications and DIFFERENT manufactures of the two ships weren´t enough to penetrate that thick skull of yours, while your wishful thinking makes you claim them to be the same ship, with no other real evidence, as that both are called "Republic" and since i have no other argument at the moment, i think it pointless to continue.

Well guys, I think I've found Darkstar's new handle.

I have shown that the weaponry possessed by the Republic class makes it a cruiser.

I have shown that both ships are manufactured by the Kuati

You have repeatedly ignored this, instead whining about old information, throwing up red herring after red herring, pulled numbers out of your ass, playing the name game, complaining about the fact that you are getting your ass kicked by everyone in this thread, and now declaring victory by stating that the fact I don't understand your position makes your right despite your complete and utter lack of any evidence.

I'm holding all the cards here, and you continue to cry like a petulant child who has broken his favorite toy. Well that's tough shit.

And comparing me of being a creationist is one of those debating-facilites, you are so eager to accuse me of commiting.

And perhaps you'd like to name which one? Not that I expect you to be able to; I doubt you even know what a fallacy is, seeing as how you can't even spell it.

Excuse me for misreading an extra zero. I want to know what the hell makes you think that 250,000 destroyers is an upper limit.

The imperial order of battle shown in the diagrams of the ISB and a quote from the Rebellion or Rebel-Alliance-Sourcebook, that the empire doubled its forces in the time between Yavin and Endor, as well as the ratio of major worlds in comparison to star destroyers in the fleet in "Spectres of the past". But as long as nobody clearifies on the 25,000-number from the same novel, that is only wishful thinking on my part.

So you seriously think that they can hold 50 million systems and have massive reserve fleets in the core with the bulk of their fleet only numbering at 250,000?

And while you formulate an answer to that, I'd like to offer to sell you some beachfront property I have in Nebraska.

We know that ISDs throw out somewhere around 1x10^24 watts

We have the Dondonna quote from ANH.

Even if we assume that he was talking the time averaged power of the shot and not its actual power, that gives us 1 billion ships. Destroyers, the workhorses of the fleet, are gong to be the bulk of this. Yet you think that there is only a quarter of a million of them

And the moment the ISD throws out 1*10^26 watts you are down to ten million ships.

And do you have the slightest bit of backing for that aside from the fact you pulled it from your ass to try and prove me wrong?

Not to mention bigger ships, than the ISD,

Wow, thanks for showing no conceptual understanding of the idea of "low end". Yes, thee are more powerful ships. But the actual power of the beam is 100000x greater then what I used in my bending over for you backwards there. Even accounting for the larger ships that were not in service at the time of Yavin, going by the actual energy of the beam puts the fleet in the trillions of ships

gadgets like the Tarkin-Battlestation, Executors, Torpedo-Spheres and so on.

You mean ships that didn't exist at the time of the quote? Gee, those are really fucking relevant. And see my above about low end.

Even Dreadnoughts should throw out 10^24 Watts, since they are able to execute BDZ-operations in A.C.Crispins Han Solo-trilogy.

And does the fact that it was going to take a number of them and a fleet of smaller ships to do it, thus drastically lowering the number, totally escape you?

Fine about the engage. In that case we have "jack shit" data about the abilities of the Viscount in contrast to other ships. I hope you are happy about it.

Bullshit, its twice the size of and more powerful then a battlecruiser, and we have a general idea of how strong a battlecruiser is based off of how strong destroyers and cruisers are. We still have data.

No, we only know, that it is twice the size of a battlecruiser. We don´t know, if its more powerful. For that we have to look how it performs in battle.

Do you REALLY think the thing was just mostly hollow shell? A ship twice the size means larger reactors, more powerful engines, stronger shields; more weapons mounts, more starfighter carrying capacity. And that is just what we can infer from mass and volume if we assume they are on an equal technology level. And considering the only conventional ships we have ever seen greater then a battlecruiser have been battleships, the discrepancy is more drastic.

I actually have a nice little table on my computer where I am currently trying to work in all known classes to their roles. So I can confidently say yes, i can squeeze all those ships in because contrary to your position they aren't all the same.

Hmm, lets see:

*snip stats*


With individual exceptions all ships have crews between 5,000 and 7,000 men, carry a number of troops between 1,200 and 1,700 men and have 4-6 squadrons of fighters. The major differences start with the weapons, especially with the Turbolasers, Heavy Turbolasers and Turbolaser-Batteries.
While i have no idea how to resolve this, i find it highly unlikely, that the NR produced the first ship, improved the number and power of weapons and continued to build models of the older ship, when everything else was the same, but with more firepower.


But if you have found an individual position for each one of them in the NR OOB, lets hear it.

the Nebula and Defender are the same ship, WOTC just fucked up the name, check the novels and authors site for confirmation. So that eliminates 2 to deal with. The MC 80A and MC 80B both fulfill the same role, which is easily explained similar to how the USN has both Los Angeles class and Seawolf class fast attack subs.

For the rest:

Heavy Cruiser: Republic class
Light cruiser: MC 90
Dedicated Destroyer: Nebula
Escort Destroyer: MC 80
Frigate: Majestic

Destroyers are bigger then cruisers. Right

Carrack-Class Light Cruiser: 350 meters
Dreadnought-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters
Strike-Class Medium Cruiser: 450 meters
Vindicator-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters (built by KDY, according to WOTC)
Enforcer-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters
Majestic-Class Heavy Cruiser: 700 meters

You and i both know, that this is wrong, but it is still the way things are done in the GFFA.

Not going by the canon, no they aren't.

The only possible solution i see for getting things more akin to the real world is to expand the classification-system with the prefix "star"

star frigate (what would cover all ships mentioned above)
star destroyer
star cruiser
star battlecruiser
star battleship

Or Star and Sea can be used to distinguish combat medium and the classification differences can be explained by 3po's statements in Vector Prime about classification systems that give undue weight to smaller vessels.

Wow, nice of you to totally distort my position.

Your position? Your position is, that i think a cruiser to be smaller than a destroyer, while i should have already cleared, that this isn´t the case. Didn´t you understand, that i was only explaining how this classification-issue is handled in the official literature?

Do you not understand I am going by the canon and the official literature with provided rationalizations? No, you probably do not.

I didn't realize 80 was less then 64.

60 Turbolasers and 60 Ion-Cannons for the ISD-I, 50 Heavy Turbolaser-Batteries and Fifty Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons and 20 Ion-cannons for the ISDII.

Before you complain, that this doesn’t fit with what we see in the movies, i want to make clear, that for a working comparison we have to convert movie-stats to official stats. What means, that the weapons of a EU-ship would be different in a movie, but still in the original ratio in comparison to the ISD. I’m aware of the difficulties of that, but if you have another idea, let me know.

IDEA: We go with canon where it over rules, and official where there is no contradiction, as per Lucasfilm's policy. we abide by the rules rather then trying to twist things. The concept of obeying rules and set policies is something readily understood by small children. Yet you seem to have trouble grasping it. I recommend spending a lot of time on Kindergarten playgrounds, I'm sure you could learn a lot from those smarter then you.

And if we go by the canon, I'm right. A month or so ago I did a it of study on Mon Cal capabilities. I figured mass and scaled engine thrust. I examined weapons size and number. I looked through shielding theories. End result: Mon Cal cruisers were specifically designed to fight Imperial vessels of similar and greater tonnage, and succeed very well.

In other words Mon Cal-cruisers are superior, but i´m to lazy to describe why. You have chackled, chicken, now lay.

Is English not your primary language? I said why, I crunched the numbers.

Mon Cal cruisers in the movies use larger TLs then on the ISD mk 1, giving them heavier firepower. Their mountings allow for concentration of almost the entire broadside on a small area. Comparing mass to engine thrust gives them superior acceleration. Current shielding theories mean that while their dissipation rate would not be cumulative with the backups, the fact that the others kick on immediately as the others burn out gives them superior stay time in the fight.

Individually? No. But two or three accompanied with smaller vessels can and did in ROTJ. Which is, funny, what we see in the novels.

Including the much more powerful "Home One",

Home One appears to be typical of Cruiser range craft, it is more powerful then destroyers certainly but this is to be expected.

A-Wings able to exploit the failure of the bridge-deflectorshield

What is it with idiots believing fighters hitting the bridge was necessary for the destruction of the vessel?

and the Executor ramming the DeathStar.

It was dead either way, it crashed because it was running.

I'm not forgetting any of that, you are just strawmanning the hell out of my argument. I have consistently said a few cruisrs and some smaller ships could down a SSD. What do we see in the movies? A cruiser and 2-3 destroyers and some smaller ships take out a SSD. And the Executor was going down with or without the DS2, it hit it because they knew it was dead and on the run. It had no shields and was surrounded by hostiles. And the mon cals that WEG labels at 1200 meters scale to 1500 meters.

No problem with a few cruisers. But the way i understood IPs post, it was one cruiser and a couple of frigates and corvettes.
Home One is still three times bigger, than the other cruisers size- and masswise.

No it isn't, Home One is typical of a Star Cruiser craft.

The Executor wasn´t dead. It had lost its bridge-deflectorshields, not all of its shields.

Yes, so the bridge was now a very exposed target, and its destruction lead to the dropping of all shields, explaining the damage to the engines we see in the crash. All it would take is 1 TL shot. They had to get out of thee because they were dead men if they didn't.

And it wasn´t on the run, it crashed into the DeathStar. Piett doesn´t order "lets run away", he orders "increase fire with the frontal batteries".

Rather then argue with another stupid bastard, I'm just gonna link to the last time I had to explain what standard operating procedures are to one of you dumbasses.

When contact with the bridge is lost in battle, SOP is to run the engines on full and get your ship the hell out of there

Mon Remonda was dedicated to war

But still based on a pleasure-liner.

I checked the New Essential Guide.
I checked the Old Essential Guide.
I checked the Unofficial Encyclopedia.

You know what?


There is ZERO support for that claim.

Lets review: Converted Mon Cal SDs have dozens of ISD 1 type HTLs on them and can canonically go toe to toe with ISDs. Later versions like the Mon Remonda are suppossedly more powerful. And you think I am off in saying that these later versions that are more powerful can do better?

According to canon, they can´t (see the Ackbar-quote).

I dealt with this above. The ability of cruisers and destroyers to go head to head with destroyers is fully supported by the canon. Just not by your attempt to twist it to fit your worldview

I don´t doubt later versions are more powerful. I only question if only three of them can defeat a SSD, without one of them being as powerful as Home One. If the GFFA is technologically stagnant, how can they put more weapons, that are more powerful and improved shielding into a shiphull, that is already smaller by at least 20 percent and (for the later versions) be superior to the ISDs? And why didn´t the empire find a way to do so?

Technological stagnation is not the same as design stagnation. A change in design by removing most of the long-term capabilities and non ship to ship combat abilities would allow for reduction in size.

Further you are using length as an automatic indication of volume, its the latter that is key not the former. An oval smaller on the y-axis can have as much volume as a pyramid with a longer y-axis, provided x and z are the same. This explains how the ovoid Mon Cals can do it, a lack of any good pictures of the Republic means we cannot rule out a high volume design for it either.

Movies over rule official

The Viscount is official. The stats of MC80, MC90 and so on are official. If vessels in the rebel-fleet at Endor are bigger, how can they belong to those classes. And even if, why shouldn´t there be other differences besides the lenght?

There are other differences, EG weapons.

Official is over ridden by canon. Simple as that.

Movies overrule official, smallest cruisers at Endor were 1500 meters so it has zero to do with me "hoping" for anything

Actually i meant IP´s ideas about the MC90 being bigger, than the official 1,255 meters.

Still a red herring.

Sector size determined by number of key systems, thus a number of densely developed world will allow for smaller sectors and let them fit in a smaller region.

Don´t let IP hear that. I wanted to point at things in the EU, that are, well, questionable or dubious.[/quote]No, you wanted to throw out a number of red herrings to try and hide the fact you are getting stomped.

This would be...?

Borleias in X-Wing: RogueSquadron.

So you posed the question about why a strategic installation was left undefended when it was the plan to let them take that place and advance on to Coruscant and capture that?

Jesus christ you're stupid.

Yes, an experienced and trusted public face to deal with things and spin your actions and also handle covert things is difficult.

One has to wonder, what kind of man Kinman Dorianna was, if Palpatine needed Vader, Thrawn and Mara Jade to replace him. And why not one of the other GA´s? At this point Zahn is overdoing it.

Blah blah blah, irrelevant red herring. Knock this shit off.

1,200,000 clone-troopers

Canon statement

Exactly that. Don´t you think that number to be a bit low to start a war and the conquest of a galaxy with?

Not when they are the fast response marine corps we see in the movies and called up sector forces are the bulk of the military like Shatterpoint indicates.

the superlaser using neutrinos to pierce through planetary shields,

Violates physics and thus falls before the DET theory which is supported by the canon

Yet this is official explenation of the workings of the superlaser in the DESB.

Fuck it, I am NOT getting into this one with you, I have neither the time not the patience for it. See the Anderson debate to have it explained in very small words how canon shows it was DET.

No thanks, that is enough red herrings for one day. Your bullshit is more tiresome then helping your position here.

Red Herrings? Bullshit? What i want to make clear is, that the EU isn´t infallable or consistent and if there are inconsistencies, we have to find a way to rationalize them.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Mon cal or Republic cruisers, making them red herrings. Look it up if you don't know what it is instead of bullshitting.

[Ender]

Red Herrings. You can't just ignore it if you don't want to address it.

I don´t ignore it. I try to put them into perspective

Bullshit, you were making a direct attempt to try and get it tossed out.

I really can't figure where you are going with this: Cruisers are more powerful in the movies then oficial displays, thus dealing with what you consider to be a contradiction, so this makes picket ships better as a result?

IP´s argument, that the MC-Cruisers were superior to the ISDs, despite being converted civilian ships and smaller.

Which has what to do with picket ships?

And where in the movies?

Gun numbers and power chiefly.

May i quote Admiral Ackbar: "We won´t last long against those star destroyers."

May I point out that was in reference to the whole fleet, which had a little over a dozen cruisers/destroyers, and most were picket ships, gunboats and transports. Ackbar was totally correct; the Destroyers would have shredded the smaller craft and then could have ganged up on the destroyers and cruisers.

Gara took out he hyperdrive. Not real critical to the ship in a fight. In fact she asks and is told she can't take down shileds or anything.

Fine. But i just looked into SoloCommand again. On page 392 we get a glimpse at the forces arrayed against the Iron Fist: Three MC-Cruisers, one star destroyer and the carrier Quasar-Fire. Nothing about a few frigates and corvettes.

I was referring to Iron Fist with the frigates and corvettes.

bullshit, that's not at all what you meant, you specifically said it might not be an Executor class.

I also said, the Iron Fist might not have been up to stats and thats the point i answered.

So you respond with something totally irrelevant in my response to the fact you are wrong?

Yes, but you are making the claim, not him.

True.

Lets turn this around: What prove do we have, that the Iron Fist was in top-condition?

Let me get this straight, I point out that you are shifting burden of proof, you concede that you are, then turn around and try to shift burden of proof again? Are you trying to get VI status?

Yes, over the long term. Short term the thing was still raring to go.

Of course you have a source to quote to prove this.

Zsinj's conversation with Melvar in Solo Command has re-establishment of businesses as a long-term goal, while maintaining the Iron Fist was short term.

According to the EC Zsinj went rogue almost the moment he heard of Palpatines death. Over a time-frame of three years he conquered one third of the galaxy (starting with a single sector) and waged war against the NR and the empire at the same time. How long do you want "long term" to be?

You start needing things over the long term as soon as you start losing resources, not gaining them you idiot.

No, the difference between an adjective (imperial as sign of political affilation) and a Substantive (Imperial like Imperial-Class-Stardestroyer).

Imperial would be capitalized just like the class name would because the names of nations are always capitalized, just like personal names. If you want to get picky like that, Connor is even more correct because if they were describing a specific class then "imperial" would have been in italics the same way Viscount was.

Well, i might sound picky, but "Imperial (-class) Star Destroyer" is what the author of that quote had in mind, people, who read it will see and what we will get, if future authors use the NEGVV to base their work on it.

If he meant a specific class, he would have put it in italics like he did for every other ship in the book.

And if anybody argues, that the intention was the Viscount to be able to engage an Allegiance or an Executor, that is also nitpicking.

Don´t you think, an author, who wants to impress the fan-boys wouldn´t have written "can engage a Super Star Destroyer", if the ship would be able to do so? You might have an argument, if there are other quotes, that show the situation to be different and if you know, please tell me. I would like nothing more, than to forget about that NEGVV-entry.

As you have already conceded and I have shown, the wording is two vague for any useful information to be drawn from it what so ever. So since you already conceded it, I have to ask, why the fuck did you bring it back up?

the fact that it has nothing to do with the argument is specifically why he said it was misdirection you twat.

Misdirection? While that point had nothing to do with the arguement itself, it describes how things are.

Ok, for the benefit of those who don’t understand words that are composed of more then one syllable (eg: YOU!), I’ll repeat this.

Since it is not relevant, trying to steer the discussion that way is misdirection.

Seriously, have you ever debated before in your life?

Actually, NEGVV indicates that, like Ronthana Heavy Engineering, Rendilli Stardrives was a sub company. See the entry in the front where it states they built the KDY design Victory Star Destroyer. So while my theory was right, my position is correct.

Indicates, aha. But it is still no solid prove.

Yes, it is solid proof. You don't have a company you don't own build something that you can do yourself unless you like flushing money down the toilet.

Yet the moment i base an argument on something, that is only indicated or not written out in capital letters for every idiot to understand, i´m a twat.

You've been playing the name game, throwing out red herrings, and pulling things out of your ass this entire time, quit your bitching.

Until now the Victory was a Rendili-design and the company no sub-company of KDY.

New information overrides official

And even if Rendili was taken over by KDY during the time-frame from AotC (the AotC:ICS describes it as competing company to KDY) till NJO, why would Destiny´s Way speak about Republic-Class-Cruisers and NOT Republic-Class-Star Destroyers?

The weapons load out and corresponding power of the Republic class puts it in the cruiser-heavy cruiser range. I've said this repeatedly throughout the thread.

Bitch bitch bitch, you are still wrong wrong wrong.

And still you have no proof, proof, proof.

I've shown the are the same class, have the same manufacture, and shot down every theory you have tossed up. You on the other hand have pulled numbers from your ass, posted red herrings, and chosen to repeatedly ignore what I have to say.

*sigh* Your argument there was that since one was a destroyer and the other a cruiser, they must be different. I have repeatedly pointed out that both are cruisers, so they could be the same ship.

*sigh* Just that the one is a Republic-Class-Star Destroyer built by a company, that, with exception of the NEGVV, every other source describes as competitor and not subsidiary of KDY and the other is a Republic-Class-Cruiser.

Jesus fucking Buddah, can you read? For the 6th time in this thread:

THE WEAPONS LOADOUT AND RESPECTIVE POWER SHOW THE REPUBLIC CLASS VESSEL TO BE A CRUISER, THUS NEGATING YOUR ATTEMPTS AT THE NAME GAME

It outguns anything in the destroyer range, and since new information overrides old it has the same manufacture. There is ZERO evidence they are different ships.

Fine. In that case we´ll disagree on this until somebody at WOTC or elsewhere produces some stats for the Republic-Class-Cruiser, that are different from those of the Republic-Class-SD.

So I've argued you to the ground, and rather then concede you just say "give me more time so I can get newer evidence". that's akin to a creationist insist that the debate be postponed until the Revelation happens so they can prove there is a god.

No. My arguments about DIFFERENT classifications and DIFFERENT manufactures of the two ships weren´t enough to penetrate that thick skull of yours, while your wishful thinking makes you claim them to be the same ship, with no other real evidence, as that both are called "Republic" and since i have no other argument at the moment, i think it pointless to continue.

Well guys, I think I've found Darkstar's new handle.

I have shown that the weaponry possessed by the Republic class makes it a cruiser.

I have shown that both ships are manufactured by the Kuati

You have repeatedly ignored this, instead whining about old information, throwing up red herring after red herring, pulled numbers out of your ass, playing the name game, complaining about the fact that you are getting your ass kicked by everyone in this thread, and now declaring victory by stating that the fact I don't understand your position makes your right despite your complete and utter lack of any evidence.

I'm holding all the cards here, and you continue to cry like a petulant child who has broken his favorite toy. Well that's tough shit.

And comparing me of being a creationist is one of those debating-facilites, you are so eager to accuse me of commiting.

And perhaps you'd like to name which one? Not that I expect you to be able to; I doubt you even know what a fallacy is, seeing as how you can't even spell it.

Excuse me for misreading an extra zero. I want to know what the hell makes you think that 250,000 destroyers is an upper limit.

The imperial order of battle shown in the diagrams of the ISB and a quote from the Rebellion or Rebel-Alliance-Sourcebook, that the empire doubled its forces in the time between Yavin and Endor, as well as the ratio of major worlds in comparison to star destroyers in the fleet in "Spectres of the past". But as long as nobody clearifies on the 25,000-number from the same novel, that is only wishful thinking on my part.

So you seriously think that they can hold 50 million systems and have massive reserve fleets in the core with the bulk of their fleet only numbering at 250,000?

And while you formulate an answer to that, I'd like to offer to sell you some beachfront property I have in Nebraska.

We know that ISDs throw out somewhere around 1x10^24 watts

We have the Dondonna quote from ANH.

Even if we assume that he was talking the time averaged power of the shot and not its actual power, that gives us 1 billion ships. Destroyers, the workhorses of the fleet, are gong to be the bulk of this. Yet you think that there is only a quarter of a million of them

And the moment the ISD throws out 1*10^26 watts you are down to ten million ships.

And do you have the slightest bit of backing for that aside from the fact you pulled it from your ass to try and prove me wrong?

Not to mention bigger ships, than the ISD,

Wow, thanks for showing no conceptual understanding of the idea of "low end". Yes, thee are more powerful ships. But the actual power of the beam is 100000x greater then what I used in my bending over for you backwards there. Even accounting for the larger ships that were not in service at the time of Yavin, going by the actual energy of the beam puts the fleet in the trillions of ships

gadgets like the Tarkin-Battlestation, Executors, Torpedo-Spheres and so on.

You mean ships that didn't exist at the time of the quote? Gee, those are really fucking relevant. And see my above about low end.

Even Dreadnoughts should throw out 10^24 Watts, since they are able to execute BDZ-operations in A.C.Crispins Han Solo-trilogy.

And does the fact that it was going to take a number of them and a fleet of smaller ships to do it, thus drastically lowering the number, totally escape you?

Fine about the engage. In that case we have "jack shit" data about the abilities of the Viscount in contrast to other ships. I hope you are happy about it.

Bullshit, its twice the size of and more powerful then a battlecruiser, and we have a general idea of how strong a battlecruiser is based off of how strong destroyers and cruisers are. We still have data.

No, we only know, that it is twice the size of a battlecruiser. We don´t know, if its more powerful. For that we have to look how it performs in battle.

Do you REALLY think the thing was just mostly hollow shell? A ship twice the size means larger reactors, more powerful engines, stronger shields; more weapons mounts, more starfighter carrying capacity. And that is just what we can infer from mass and volume if we assume they are on an equal technology level. And considering the only conventional ships we have ever seen greater then a battlecruiser have been battleships, the discrepancy is more drastic.

I actually have a nice little table on my computer where I am currently trying to work in all known classes to their roles. So I can confidently say yes, i can squeeze all those ships in because contrary to your position they aren't all the same.

Hmm, lets see:

*snip stats*


With individual exceptions all ships have crews between 5,000 and 7,000 men, carry a number of troops between 1,200 and 1,700 men and have 4-6 squadrons of fighters. The major differences start with the weapons, especially with the Turbolasers, Heavy Turbolasers and Turbolaser-Batteries.
While i have no idea how to resolve this, i find it highly unlikely, that the NR produced the first ship, improved the number and power of weapons and continued to build models of the older ship, when everything else was the same, but with more firepower.


But if you have found an individual position for each one of them in the NR OOB, lets hear it.

the Nebula and Defender are the same ship, WOTC just fucked up the name, check the novels and authors site for confirmation. So that eliminates 2 to deal with. The MC 80A and MC 80B both fulfill the same role, which is easily explained similar to how the USN has both Los Angeles class and Seawolf class fast attack subs.

For the rest:

Heavy Cruiser: Republic class
Light cruiser: MC 90
Dedicated Destroyer: Nebula
Escort Destroyer: MC 80
Frigate: Majestic

Destroyers are bigger then cruisers. Right

Carrack-Class Light Cruiser: 350 meters
Dreadnought-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters
Strike-Class Medium Cruiser: 450 meters
Vindicator-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters (built by KDY, according to WOTC)
Enforcer-Class Heavy Cruiser: 600 meters
Majestic-Class Heavy Cruiser: 700 meters

You and i both know, that this is wrong, but it is still the way things are done in the GFFA.

Not going by the canon, no they aren't.

The only possible solution i see for getting things more akin to the real world is to expand the classification-system with the prefix "star"

star frigate (what would cover all ships mentioned above)
star destroyer
star cruiser
star battlecruiser
star battleship

Or Star and Sea can be used to distinguish combat medium and the classification differences can be explained by 3po's statements in Vector Prime about classification systems that give undue weight to smaller vessels.

Wow, nice of you to totally distort my position.

Your position? Your position is, that i think a cruiser to be smaller than a destroyer, while i should have already cleared, that this isn´t the case. Didn´t you understand, that i was only explaining how this classification-issue is handled in the official literature?

Do you not understand I am going by the canon and the official literature with provided rationalizations? No, you probably do not.

I didn't realize 80 was less then 64.

60 Turbolasers and 60 Ion-Cannons for the ISD-I, 50 Heavy Turbolaser-Batteries and Fifty Heavy Turbolaser-Cannons and 20 Ion-cannons for the ISDII.

Before you complain, that this doesn’t fit with what we see in the movies, i want to make clear, that for a working comparison we have to convert movie-stats to official stats. What means, that the weapons of a EU-ship would be different in a movie, but still in the original ratio in comparison to the ISD. I’m aware of the difficulties of that, but if you have another idea, let me know.

IDEA: We go with canon where it over rules, and official where there is no contradiction, as per Lucasfilm's policy. we abide by the rules rather then trying to twist things. The concept of obeying rules and set policies is something readily understood by small children. Yet you seem to have trouble grasping it. I recommend spending a lot of time on Kindergarten playgrounds, I'm sure you could learn a lot from those smarter then you.

And if we go by the canon, I'm right. A month or so ago I did a it of study on Mon Cal capabilities. I figured mass and scaled engine thrust. I examined weapons size and number. I looked through shielding theories. End result: Mon Cal cruisers were specifically designed to fight Imperial vessels of similar and greater tonnage, and succeed very well.

In other words Mon Cal-cruisers are superior, but i´m to lazy to describe why. You have chackled, chicken, now lay.

Is English not your primary language? I said why, I crunched the numbers.

Mon Cal cruisers in the movies use larger TLs then on the ISD mk 1, giving them heavier firepower. Their mountings allow for concentration of almost the entire broadside on a small area. Comparing mass to engine thrust gives them superior acceleration. Current shielding theories mean that while their dissipation rate would not be cumulative with the backups, the fact that the others kick on immediately as the others burn out gives them superior stay time in the fight.

Individually? No. But two or three accompanied with smaller vessels can and did in ROTJ. Which is, funny, what we see in the novels.

Including the much more powerful "Home One",

Home One appears to be typical of Cruiser range craft, it is more powerful then destroyers certainly but this is to be expected.

A-Wings able to exploit the failure of the bridge-deflectorshield

What is it with idiots believing fighters hitting the bridge was necessary for the destruction of the vessel?

and the Executor ramming the DeathStar.

It was dead either way, it crashed because it was running.

I'm not forgetting any of that, you are just strawmanning the hell out of my argument. I have consistently said a few cruisrs and some smaller ships could down a SSD. What do we see in the movies? A cruiser and 2-3 destroyers and some smaller ships take out a SSD. And the Executor was going down with or without the DS2, it hit it because they knew it was dead and on the run. It had no shields and was surrounded by hostiles. And the mon cals that WEG labels at 1200 meters scale to 1500 meters.

No problem with a few cruisers. But the way i understood IPs post, it was one cruiser and a couple of frigates and corvettes.
Home One is still three times bigger, than the other cruisers size- and masswise.

No it isn't, Home One is typical of a Star Cruiser craft.

The Executor wasn´t dead. It had lost its bridge-deflectorshields, not all of its shields.

Yes, so the bridge was now a very exposed target, and its destruction lead to the dropping of all shields, explaining the damage to the engines we see in the crash. All it would take is 1 TL shot. They had to get out of thee because they were dead men if they didn't.

And it wasn´t on the run, it crashed into the DeathStar. Piett doesn´t order "lets run away", he orders "increase fire with the frontal batteries".

Rather then argue with another stupid bastard, I'm just gonna link to the last time I had to explain what standard operating procedures are to one of you dumbasses.

When contact with the bridge is lost in battle, SOP is to run the engines on full and get your ship the hell out of there

Mon Remonda was dedicated to war

But still based on a pleasure-liner.

I checked the New Essential Guide.
I checked the Old Essential Guide.
I checked the Unofficial Encyclopedia.

You know what?


There is ZERO support for that claim.

Lets review: Converted Mon Cal SDs have dozens of ISD 1 type HTLs on them and can canonically go toe to toe with ISDs. Later versions like the Mon Remonda are suppossedly more powerful. And you think I am off in saying that these later versions that are more powerful can do better?

According to canon, they can´t (see the Ackbar-quote).

I dealt with this above. The ability of cruisers and destroyers to go head to head with destroyers is fully supported by the canon. Just not by your attempt to twist it to fit your worldview

I don´t doubt later versions are more powerful. I only question if only three of them can defeat a SSD, without one of them being as powerful as Home One. If the GFFA is technologically stagnant, how can they put more weapons, that are more powerful and improved shielding into a shiphull, that is already smaller by at least 20 percent and (for the later versions) be superior to the ISDs? And why didn´t the empire find a way to do so?

Technological stagnation is not the same as design stagnation. A change in design by removing most of the long-term capabilities and non ship to ship combat abilities would allow for reduction in size.

Further you are using length as an automatic indication of volume, its the latter that is key not the former. An oval smaller on the y-axis can have as much volume as a pyramid with a longer y-axis, provided x and z are the same. This explains how the ovoid Mon Cals can do it, a lack of any good pictures of the Republic means we cannot rule out a high volume design for it either.

Movies over rule official

The Viscount is official. The stats of MC80, MC90 and so on are official. If vessels in the rebel-fleet at Endor are bigger, how can they belong to those classes. And even if, why shouldn´t there be other differences besides the lenght?

There are other differences, EG weapons.

Official is over ridden by canon. Simple as that.

Movies overrule official, smallest cruisers at Endor were 1500 meters so it has zero to do with me "hoping" for anything

Actually i meant IP´s ideas about the MC90 being bigger, than the official 1,255 meters.

Still a red herring.

Sector size determined by number of key systems, thus a number of densely developed world will allow for smaller sectors and let them fit in a smaller region.

Don´t let IP hear that. I wanted to point at things in the EU, that are, well, questionable or dubious.[/quote]No, you wanted to throw out a number of red herrings to try and hide the fact you are getting stomped.

This would be...?

Borleias in X-Wing: RogueSquadron.

So you posed the question about why a strategic installation was left undefended when it was the plan to let them take that place and advance on to Coruscant and capture that?

Jesus christ you're stupid.

Yes, an experienced and trusted public face to deal with things and spin your actions and also handle covert things is difficult.

One has to wonder, what kind of man Kinman Dorianna was, if Palpatine needed Vader, Thrawn and Mara Jade to replace him. And why not one of the other GA´s? At this point Zahn is overdoing it.

Blah blah blah, irrelevant red herring. Knock this shit off.

1,200,000 clone-troopers

Canon statement

Exactly that. Don´t you think that number to be a bit low to start a war and the conquest of a galaxy with?

Not when they are the fast response marine corps we see in the movies and called up sector forces are the bulk of the military like Shatterpoint indicates.

the superlaser using neutrinos to pierce through planetary shields,

Violates physics and thus falls before the DET theory which is supported by the canon

Yet this is official explenation of the workings of the superlaser in the DESB.

Fuck it, I am NOT getting into this one with you, I have neither the time not the patience for it. See the Anderson debate to have it explained in very small words how canon shows it was DET.

No thanks, that is enough red herrings for one day. Your bullshit is more tiresome then helping your position here.

Red Herrings? Bullshit? What i want to make clear is, that the EU isn´t infallable or consistent and if there are inconsistencies, we have to find a way to rationalize them.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with Mon cal or Republic cruisers, making them red herrings. Look it up if you don't know what it is instead of bullshitting.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Can we get a thread split as long as my recent one can stay in the original? This debate has nothing to do with the fucking book.

[Illuminatus Primus]

While I agree in major part, Ender, I do think we are in some disagreement about NR navies...I'm starting a new thread for discussion and reference.