How would you improve an ISD?

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CmdrWilkens
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

His Divine Shadow wrote:About the Hangar, I'd simply make 4 huge armored slabs or doors that would close up the Hangar bay in an armored shell.
1) Its STILL gonna be weaker than the main hull

2) Even if it isn't its still mroe vulnerable than the main hull (the joints are weaker by neccesity)

3) Its yet another system you have to power and the bigger the slab the mroe power you have to devote.

4)The retraction means you have to have a place to store either the gear or the gear and the door, when the hanger is open. This means an internal redesign that might have unforseen consequences.
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Post by greenmm »

Possible upgrades:

1. Move some of the TL's (LTL, MTL, or HTL, depending on which would work better) from the side trenches into turrets on the dorsal and ventral hulls. You might have a slight mass penalty involved, but probably limited to at worst a 5% increase (and that's being generous).

The firepower isn't sacrificed, and your ability to fire in the forward and broadside arcs shouldn't be adversely affected. However, you reduce the deficiency in its vertical fire arcs, thus avoiding the problems you have when the Rebels have their MonCal ships stay "above" or "below" you.

2. Go for an "HMS Dreadnaught" style of gun layout. In some ways, the LTL/MTL/HTL gun layout resembles the pre-Dreadnaught battleships of the turn of the century, which had the big guns, cruiser guns, and destroyer guns. HMS Dreadnaught, on the other hand, tossed out the cruiser guns, and reduced the destroyer guns, in order to carry as many heavy guns as possible. As the lighter weapons weren't as effective in capital ship battles anyway, it allowed a Dreadnaught-style battleship to carry much more effective firepower into a battle than the older designs.

For the Star Destroyer, remove all the MTL's and half the LTL's. Figure out how much firepower that represents (i.e. how many GT per shot per turret), then figure out how many additional HTL's that works out to. You many even be able to have additional HTL's added in beyond that figure, since you're reducing the size of your gunnery crews and the power needs (less turrets = less power devoted to training and elevating the turrets you do have). At the very least, you're not sacrificing your total firepower, but you're making each shot more effective individually... and you might even be lucky enough to increase overall firepower by 5-10%.

3. Make the ship less vulnerable to a fighter squadron assault or attacks against your turrets by increasing the number. It's essentially the reverse of #2: having a whole bunch of lighter turrets reduces the firepower per shot you have, but it also means the enemy not only has to take out more turrets to eliminate your firepower, but that each turret lost represents less of a reduction in overall firepower.

Lose the HTL's completely. Then make a choice: either mixed LTL/MTL (redistributing the HTL firepower among equal numbers of LTL's and MTL's), or pure LTL's. There might be a slight loss in overall firepower, due to the increased demands for turret traverse and elevation power (thanks to the additional turrets), but the larger number of targets means it will take longer for any prospective enemy to take out your weaponry. As an upshot, you might even be able to combine this with the benefits of option #1 and put the additional turrets on the dorsal and ventral hulls.

You could even consider this as an "AA" Star Destroyer type.

As for the hanger bay issue... maybe sacrifice a few LTL's and put an additional shield generator system in for the hanger bay itself, in addition to the ship's existing shields...
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Post by Shinova »

1. Change the ISD's power source to the Grid

2. Change shielding to omni-dimensional, and fed directly by the Grid.

3. Take out engines and put in a walnut-sized 4-D drive instead.

4. Have self-displacer so that my ISD can teleport rapidly in combat or travel

5. Remove all crew, droids, replace with automated systems.

6. Give inter-dimensional travel capability.

7. Instantaneous FTL.

8. Have systems that can continuously generate multi yottaton bombs and be able to displace them by the thousands.

9. Effectors and effector shielding.

10. Advanced Gridfire devices

11. Reduce ship size to 100 meters, paint it jet-black, make it sleeker, and take all interior space and put it in a separate dimension so that a 100 km cubed volume of space can fit in a 100 meter long craft.

12. Time travelling device and field to protect against changes in timeline.

13. Advanced computer that can build new tech and weapons whenever I request so.

14. A Q weapon to destroy beings like the Q.



That's about it, I believe.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Shinova wrote:1. Change the ISD's power source to the Grid

2. Change shielding to omni-dimensional, and fed directly by the Grid.

3. Take out engines and put in a walnut-sized 4-D drive instead.

4. Have self-displacer so that my ISD can teleport rapidly in combat or travel

5. Remove all crew, droids, replace with automated systems.

6. Give inter-dimensional travel capability.

7. Instantaneous FTL.

8. Have systems that can continuously generate multi yottaton bombs and be able to displace them by the thousands.

9. Effectors and effector shielding.

10. Advanced Gridfire devices

11. Reduce ship size to 100 meters, paint it jet-black, make it sleeker, and take all interior space and put it in a separate dimension so that a 100 km cubed volume of space can fit in a 100 meter long craft.

12. Time travelling device and field to protect against changes in timeline.

13. Advanced computer that can build new tech and weapons whenever I request so.

14. A Q weapon to destroy beings like the Q.



That's about it, I believe.
Why bother with the ISD then? I've got all the capability and more in my cell phone.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

CmdrWilkens wrote:1) Its STILL gonna be weaker than the main hull
And better than nothing, it'll do nicely.
2) Even if it isn't its still mroe vulnerable than the main hull (the joints are weaker by neccesity)
Joints? I was thinking more like tracks.
3) Its yet another system you have to power and the bigger the slab the mroe power you have to devote.
Thats more of a nitpick than anything else really, that kind of power is hardly gonna matter when you fling around multi TT broadsides.
4)The retraction means you have to have a place to store either the gear or the gear and the door, when the hanger is open. This means an internal redesign that might have unforseen consequences.
I'm pretty happy with just having it as an external slab, would provide protection there too.
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Post by Neko_Oni »

I agree with HDS some armour beat no armour for that hanger bay. Also moving half the HTLs to the ventral side sounds good. It can still fire all its guns against an opponent to its front and sides and now it gets some really big guns for people who get underneath it. In any case is it really necessary to have all the HTLs on the top? Aren't they powerful enough to KO or heavily damage any other ship anyway?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Neko_Oni wrote:I agree with HDS some armour beat no armour for that hanger bay. Also moving half the HTLs to the ventral side sounds good. It can still fire all its guns against an opponent to its front and sides and now it gets some really big guns for people who get underneath it. In any case is it really necessary to have all the HTLs on the top? Aren't they powerful enough to KO or heavily damage any other ship anyway?
SW shield technology makes it so that if you want to fight another ship of equal strenght you need massed heavy turbolaser broadsides, firing all your weapons in a little longer time span will screw it up good.
The HTL's are there for engaging heavy ships, most of their MTL's and laser cannons and such can probably ward of small gunships and the ilk.
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Post by greenmm »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Neko_Oni wrote:I agree with HDS some armour beat no armour for that hanger bay. Also moving half the HTLs to the ventral side sounds good. It can still fire all its guns against an opponent to its front and sides and now it gets some really big guns for people who get underneath it. In any case is it really necessary to have all the HTLs on the top? Aren't they powerful enough to KO or heavily damage any other ship anyway?
SW shield technology makes it so that if you want to fight another ship of equal strenght you need massed heavy turbolaser broadsides, firing all your weapons in a little longer time span will screw it up good.
The HTL's are there for engaging heavy ships, most of their MTL's and laser cannons and such can probably ward of small gunships and the ilk.
Except that you don't need to have broadside armament mounted in the side trenches. The analogy of comparing pre-turret BB's to turreted BB's in 20th century wet-navies is apt: pre-turret BB's had each gun in its own separate mount, and you had an equal number of guns in each broadside; turreted BB's mounted all their guns on the centerline, but the ability of the turrets to traverse from side to side meant that turreted BB's had more available broadside firepower than non-turreted BB's.

For an ISD or VSD, then, the equivelent would be to move all the HTL's and the majority of the MTL's to turret mounts along the dorsal and ventral spines, and increase the elevation capability of the turrets. Super-elevating the turrets would enable them to bring at least half of their broadside capability to bear against targets "above" or "below" them (a tactic we see Ackbar use in RoTJ). With the location of the turrets, not only would an ISD/VSD still have the full broadside capability against opponents from opposite sides, but the location of the turrets would allow for nearly double the normal broadside firepower against opponents that were only located along one vector -- mostly because the guns that were previously on the opposite trench are now along the spines and can be brought to bear on the target.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:1) Its STILL gonna be weaker than the main hull
And better than nothing, it'll do nicely.
Its better than nothig but why not eliminate most of the mass penalty by makign several smaller bays in the brim trench. They are better covered from attack naturally and by virtue of being redundant and smaller you are less likely to be knocked out of comission.
2) Even if it isn't its still more vulnerable than the main hull (the joints are weaker by neccesity)
Joints? I was thinking more like tracks.
If you have tracks then it's internal (in which case you incur a HUGE space penalty) OR it has a seal which will be vulnerable.
3) Its yet another system you have to power and the bigger the slab the mroe power you have to devote.
Thats more of a nitpick than anything else really, that kind of power is hardly gonna matter when you fling around multi TT broadsides.
Not neccessarily because a hevay door like that is gonna require some damn good motors to both speed it up and decelerate it, I'd bet if you want quick closing doors that you'll need at least an LTL worth of power.
4)The retraction means you have to have a place to store either the gear or the gear and the door, when the hanger is open. This means an internal redesign that might have unforseen consequences.
I'm pretty happy with just having it as an external slab, would provide protection there too.
If its an external slab then you have joints as a weakness. Furthermore you still have to house the motors somewhere. If you have the door on the outside this makes the motors vulnerable which could seal your flight bay or leave it permanantly stuck open, if you have them on the inside then you need to seriously find some space for them.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

greenmm wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Neko_Oni wrote:I agree with HDS some armour beat no armour for that hanger bay. Also moving half the HTLs to the ventral side sounds good. It can still fire all its guns against an opponent to its front and sides and now it gets some really big guns for people who get underneath it. In any case is it really necessary to have all the HTLs on the top? Aren't they powerful enough to KO or heavily damage any other ship anyway?
SW shield technology makes it so that if you want to fight another ship of equal strenght you need massed heavy turbolaser broadsides, firing all your weapons in a little longer time span will screw it up good.
The HTL's are there for engaging heavy ships, most of their MTL's and laser cannons and such can probably ward of small gunships and the ilk.
Except that you don't need to have broadside armament mounted in the side trenches. The analogy of comparing pre-turret BB's to turreted BB's in 20th century wet-navies is apt: pre-turret BB's had each gun in its own separate mount, and you had an equal number of guns in each broadside; turreted BB's mounted all their guns on the centerline, but the ability of the turrets to traverse from side to side meant that turreted BB's had more available broadside firepower than non-turreted BB's.

For an ISD or VSD, then, the equivelent would be to move all the HTL's and the majority of the MTL's to turret mounts along the dorsal and ventral spines, and increase the elevation capability of the turrets. Super-elevating the turrets would enable them to bring at least half of their broadside capability to bear against targets "above" or "below" them (a tactic we see Ackbar use in RoTJ). With the location of the turrets, not only would an ISD/VSD still have the full broadside capability against opponents from opposite sides, but the location of the turrets would allow for nearly double the normal broadside firepower against opponents that were only located along one vector -- mostly because the guns that were previously on the opposite trench are now along the spines and can be brought to bear on the target.

Ummm not that you don't make good points but the ISD-I and -II both have their primary heavy armament along the dorsal spine on opposite sides of the command tower. Thus in the entire space above the midplane fuly half of the ISD's heavy guns can fire at any given target. The heavy guns are NOT in the trenchs. There is a set of medium guns there but those appear to be for defense at the midplane where the heavy guns can't reach.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Its better than nothig but why not eliminate most of the mass penalty by makign several smaller bays in the brim trench. They are better covered from attack naturally and by virtue of being redundant and smaller you are less likely to be knocked out of comission.

Yes well we're modifying ISD's here as I'm aware of, thats more like a new design for a Mk. III or something.

If you have tracks then it's internal (in which case you incur a HUGE space penalty) OR it has a seal which will be vulnerable

Tracks on the outside, with the doors ontop of them, not internal.
Again you're going overboard with this must have 100000% perfeftion for every last possibility thing, it'll do just fine.
It's just a modification that'll give some improvement, I'm not competing for the best of the best of the best designs in the galaxy here.

Not neccessarily because a hevay door like that is gonna require some damn good motors to both speed it up and decelerate it, I'd bet if you want quick closing doors that you'll need at least an LTL worth of power.

And I dount it'll matter enough, I might not even want quickly closing doors.

If its an external slab then you have joints as a weakness. Furthermore you still have to house the motors somewhere. If you have the door on the outside this makes the motors vulnerable which could seal your flight bay or leave it permanantly stuck open, if you have them on the inside then you need to seriously find some space for them.

No joints, tracks.
As for the size, we have no idea how large they are or how much space can be spared, I say enough space can be spared without any problems and thats that for me.
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Post by Guest »

maybe add some anti-starfighers tyle quad lasers to the tops and botoms of the hull as a measure agains the Rebel Trench Run Defence?
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Post by greenmm »

OK, I wasn't aware of exactly where the HTL's were located. However, they're still not on the spine. They're on the dorsal hull, but they're on either side of the "island" superstructure. Not only does it prohibit them from being used to fire in both broadside directions (only 4 of the 8 turrets can fire in a given broadside), and not only are their directly forward and aft arcs somewhat limited (too shallow of an angle means only 2 turrets can fire at forward or rear targets), but the Tantive IV scene from ANH showed that a target forward and under the bow can't be hit with them either. Plus, you still have the problem of your HTL's being located in 8 turrets, meaning that your enemy only has 8 targets to go for.

So...

Why not first split the HTL's up into more numerous turrets (say, 16 quads instead of 8 octuple), leave the original 8 turrets where they are, put 4 of the new turrets along the dorsal spine in front of the superstructure (i.e. along the ridge line parallel to the ship's length, one in front of the other), and put the last 4 on the ventral spine (2 forward of the hanger deck, 2 aft)? You now have 16 HTL barrels covering any targets coming towards the ISD's belly, versus the 0 you had before. You also have 40 HTL barrels that can always hit the forward arc (versus the guaranteed 16 from before). Your available broadside for either arc is now 48 barrels, versus the 32 you had before. The rear arc is unchanged (16 guaranteed available barrels). The only penalty you pay is the coverage for any ships diving from "above" the ISD (48 available barrels versus the original 64)... but it's debatable as to how often that would occur, and if there truly had been 64 HTL barrels available in that arc, Ackbar wouldn't have sent the MonCal ships in so that they were "above" the ISD's, would they?
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

greenmm wrote:OK, I wasn't aware of exactly where the HTL's were located. However, they're still not on the spine. They're on the dorsal hull, but they're on either side of the "island" superstructure. Not only does it prohibit them from being used to fire in both broadside directions (only 4 of the 8 turrets can fire in a given broadside), and not only are their directly forward and aft arcs somewhat limited (too shallow of an angle means only 2 turrets can fire at forward or rear targets), but the Tantive IV scene from ANH showed that a target forward and under the bow can't be hit with them either. Plus, you still have the problem of your HTL's being located in 8 turrets, meaning that your enemy only has 8 targets to go for.
Its a design consideration that plays to competent battle manueverings. So long as your opponent is more than a few degrees above the midplane ALL of your weapons can hit him in the forward AND rear arcs. In other words don't think of broadsides for an ISD in classic terms, a broadside is really a forward shot or a rear shot in the same way that a modern battleship is to the port and starbaord. Again the weaker arcs (port and starbaord for the ISD and fore and aft for a battleship) are analogous and reversed. Basically the ISD has exactly the same gun alignment as a modern battleship which is very good when you can manuever well.

Furthermore with the ISD Mk II those 8 turrets have 8 individual guns each, most of whcih ought to eb enough to compeltely gobble up lesser vessels, this way and ISD MK II could probably decisively engage 8 seperate Neb-B sized targets and WIN, that's almost an inversion of the N^2 law if you have the capacity to eliminate so many opponents so quickly.

So...

Why not first split the HTL's up into more numerous turrets (say, 16 quads instead of 8 octuple), leave the original 8 turrets where they are, put 4 of the new turrets along the dorsal spine in front of the superstructure (i.e. along the ridge line parallel to the ship's length, one in front of the other), and put the last 4 on the ventral spine (2 forward of the hanger deck, 2 aft)? You now have 16 HTL barrels covering any targets coming towards the ISD's belly, versus the 0 you had before. You also have 40 HTL barrels that can always hit the forward arc (versus the guaranteed 16 from before). Your available broadside for either arc is now 48 barrels, versus the 32 you had before. The rear arc is unchanged (16 guaranteed available barrels). The only penalty you pay is the coverage for any ships diving from "above" the ISD (48 available barrels versus the original 64)... but it's debatable as to how often that would occur, and if there truly had been 64 HTL barrels available in that arc, Ackbar wouldn't have sent the MonCal ships in so that they were "above" the ISD's, would they?
Here's my problem with that idea:

1) Splitting the turrets up makes them MORE vulnerable. Your only real defense against the weapons being eliinated is the shields, the more locaitons your shields must cover to keep the HTLs active the tougher it is to keep them going in an extended fight.

2) Your belley is expsosed territory, you DON'T want to fight an enemy down there and adding HTLs means that you want to engage enemies down there (you divert a significant amount of your combat firepower down there). In other words if your heavy weapons are lower side then you intend to fight ships there...that's stupid because your underside, in an ISD, is horribly exposed because of the neccessities of the size of your reactor (the hanger bay can be dealt with seperately). Once again you DON'T want to put combat firepower down there because it alters your ability to conduct attacking warfare (placing those weaposn is a DEFENSIVE placement with heavy weaponry)

3) Despite your claims you aren't really cahnging the arcs all that much. At 1 or 2 degrees above the midplane all 64 turrets will bear on a vessel. With your plan the forward arc becomse divided into a ventral and dorsal zoen because each of them has LOS problems after more than a few degrees. Yes your portr starboard firepower is a bit better but your aft firepower above the midplane is decreased. In other words you sacrifice above the midplane firepower almost entirely for below the midplane power and a small increase in port/starboard firepower...that's a defensive change and it only hurts the ISD in an offensive role.

4) Once again spreaing your turrets produces two additional challenges: They are MORE vulnerable to being taken out due to the neccessity of shield coverage AND you must supply high wattage power to several new locations which increases the possible damage from hull breaching attacks as your heavy power lines offer a much bigger target profile.
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

His Divine Shadow wrote:Its better than nothig but why not eliminate most of the mass penalty by makign several smaller bays in the brim trench. They are better covered from attack naturally and by virtue of being redundant and smaller you are less likely to be knocked out of comission.

Yes well we're modifying ISD's here as I'm aware of, thats more like a new design for a Mk. III or something.

Its a modificaiton of an ISD Mk II no matter what you do, that would make it either Mk II Mod X or Mk III, the terminology doesn't really matter.
If you have tracks then it's internal (in which case you incur a HUGE space penalty) OR it has a seal which will be vulnerable

Tracks on the outside, with the doors ontop of them, not internal.
Again you're going overboard with this must have 100000% perfeftion for every last possibility thing, it'll do just fine.
It's just a modification that'll give some improvement, I'm not competing for the best of the best of the best designs in the galaxy here.
Once again if you have exxternal tracks then you have to seal the edges which creates a seam and a joint that is still vulnerable AND your external tracks are vulnerable. Yes its better than nothing but I think spreading the danger to many smaller, more easily defended sites is a superior idea.
Not neccessarily because a hevay door like that is gonna require some damn good motors to both speed it up and decelerate it, I'd bet if you want quick closing doors that you'll need at least an LTL worth of power.

And I dount it'll matter enough, I might not even want quickly closing doors.
Thats foolish in light of the occasional need to scramble fighters
If its an external slab then you have joints as a weakness. Furthermore you still have to house the motors somewhere. If you have the door on the outside this makes the motors vulnerable which could seal your flight bay or leave it permanantly stuck open, if you have them on the inside then you need to seriously find some space for them.

No joints, tracks.
As for the size, we have no idea how large they are or how much space can be spared, I say enough space can be spared without any problems and thats that for me.
See above on the tracks.
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Post by consequences »

Its better to have dedicated carrier ships in the first place than to put a half-assed carrier component on a main line ship. The Trade Federation Droid control ship carries something on the order of 21 times the fighter strength of an ISD, while devoting most of its space to the ground assault component, and being a converted freighter rather than a purpose built carrier. If you take out 90% of the stormtrooper component, this frees up the entire internal volume they had to live in, as well as their life support and supply requirements. The only real way to improve an ISD is to make it a dedicated purpose ship, it is already about as good as it can be with all of the missions it may have to attempt.
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Post by Kuja »

Imperious-class command ship:
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Post by consequences »

The flavor text seems to be a para-phrase of the Eclipse and Sovereign Class descriptions. Also, why the hell would the number of TIE Defenders be that low?
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Post by Sparkticus »

Anti-Missile octets, and lot's of 'em. They could be quite handy for use against nearby enemy fighters as well.
Redundant shields ala the MonCals.
Relocation of Bridge to the middle of the ship, the bridge tower is a deathtrap, but it could be used to mount some firepower with a very large field of fire.
And I'm with the wong, brothels. And not trek holo-brothels, either. Give me a real woman, or maybe twi'lek...
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CmdrWilkens
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

consequences wrote:Its better to have dedicated carrier ships in the first place than to put a half-assed carrier component on a main line ship. The Trade Federation Droid control ship carries something on the order of 21 times the fighter strength of an ISD, while devoting most of its space to the ground assault component, and being a converted freighter rather than a purpose built carrier. If you take out 90% of the stormtrooper component, this frees up the entire internal volume they had to live in, as well as their life support and supply requirements. The only real way to improve an ISD is to make it a dedicated purpose ship, it is already about as good as it can be with all of the missions it may have to attempt.
Oh there are plenty of wys to make it a bette multi-purpose vessel. I mean I've outlined them and I won't toot my own horn but in order to keep the same mission profile (jack of all trades sign of Imperial prescence) there are very few things you can do, most of them relate to better distribution of the fighter asets adn better management of personnel and fighting components.
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Post by consequences »

My personal preference is to dispense with most of the ground combat element and most of the hangar bay. Come on, do you really need to be able to pull a Corellian Corvette inside your ship?
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Post by CmdrWilkens »

consequences wrote:My personal preference is to dispense with most of the ground combat element and most of the hangar bay. Come on, do you really need to be able to pull a Corellian Corvette inside your ship?
Just disperse the hanger bays and make them just big enough to spit an AT-AT out of, or use the auxilliary bay forward of the main one. Then throw stuff in the empty hole that is the old bay.
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-Kingdom of Heaven
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