consequences wrote:The people who put out the 250000 crew for the Executor also think it was only 8 km long, and had no idea of how to do actual volume calculations as opposed to simple length. The Death Star certainly doesn't need billions of crew, but it seems to be Imperial policy to overman, and avoid relying on excessive droid usage wherever possible.
Firstly, the 250000 number can't be derived simply from multiplying the crew of an ISD by the WEG-length ratio (5), it doesn't get the right number. Secondly, an ISD doesn't actually need that huge 32000 crew to operate - the NRDF operated their ISDs on much smaller crews apparent loss in combat capability.
You would certainly need billions of ground troops to effectively take an important planet you didn't want destryed, where populations could easily range into the tens and hundreds of trillions.
Well, yes. But did the DS mount a huge invasion garrison in it? Also, the whole Tarkin Doctrine argued that once a few planets went boom, no-one would be suicidal enough to try and resist.
If the DS had a crew of 100 billion, this would still be less than a sixtieth of a percent of the population of Coruscant alone. In fact, they could have spectacularly overcrewed it simply to have a place to put the ridiculous number of troops that the Empire could raise with any sort of half decent propaganda campaign.
There is no absolute proof either way. For the side of large crew I can only point out:
1. There is still almost certainly a backlash from the Katana Fleet's dissapearance going on, encouraging increased and possibly excessive redundancy when it comes to crews.
2. The Empire has an incredible number of people joining its armed forces on a continuous basis. WEG, which pretty consistently underrates the GE claims Compnor will increase its manpower by a trillion in the near future. All of these bodies have to go somewhere and do something, even if its only make-work, otherwise discontnet and rebellion are likely to increase.
3. The more people are involved, the more difficult it will be to usurp control by whatever means(aside from just turning off the inertial compensator for half a second while accelerating anyway).
4. Any warship is going to include at least some redundancy, as military designers are not in the habit of assuming everything will go perfectly.
5. There is really no reason not to include provisions for as many poeple as can fit, as it would allow the DS to be used as an emergency evacuation vessel capable of easily holding billions, maybe even trillions of refugees(unlikely, but hey, who knows).
6. To conduct a pacification campaign against a fully urbanised world would take an absurd number of troops. It only makes sense to include them on a platform that can knock down a planetary shield in the first place.
Comosicus wrote:At least there were less people than on Alderaan I think.
Less people on a developed planet than on two battlestations? Are you nuts?
Look at Saxton's site, a crew of billions would not be out of line for something of the Death Star's volume. In fact, its a minimum requirement to explain the densities of crew encountered. Going by WEG and all of the supporting crap, you should only encounter a crew member every 100 klicks or so of corridor.
The Empire has serious problems. It needs some serious revamping. But so does your precious Rebel Alliance.
Less people THAN ON Alderaan. Read to learn, people!
phongn wrote:
There is no particular reason why crew requirements must scale up in such a manner. Certainly, HIMS Executor will have a rather large crew, but does it need to be in the millions?
No it doesn't, and I explained why.
Should we assume that an ISD has a crew in the hundreds of thousands because the Dreadnought-class patrol cruiser has a crew of 16000?
A dreadnaught is 600m, scaled by length an ISD should have 43,200, which is rather close for such a rough calculation and doesn't take into account that the dreadnaught is an older design with a rather large crew for its size.
Certainly not, and there's no reason to believe that HIMS Executor must have millions of crew simply because an ISD has a crew of 32K or so.
An ISD has 32k crew, an Executor is 11 times as long. I get an expected crew of 352k, and I have no idea how you arrive at your numbers.
Why don't you show us that the Death Star must need billions of crewers to operate? Why don't you show us that crew requirements scale up in such a manner as you postulate?
When I recalculated the examples you proposed, the results were quite close to the actual crew numbers (well within a factor of 1.5). I expected them to come out within an order of magnitude, since I was argueing against the point that "[t]he Death Star certainly doesn't need billions of crew". My very rough estimates showed that this assertion is not certain at all.
"If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training, you will be a weapon,
you will be a minister of death, praying for war." - GySgt. Hartman
"God has a hard on for Marines, because we kill everything we see." - GySgt. Hartman
Greasy smoke rose from the interior of Echo Base. Snowtroopers, grouped in tight firesquads, patrolled the area, their eyes peeled for any rebel scum that might have escaped. Another group stood at attention in two straight lines, awaiting orders. One trooper in particular, his uniform marking him a Lieutenant Commander, stood among the icy crags just outside the main hanger, waiting for his second-in-command's report. His cape billowed in the wind, revealing the vibrosword sheathed at his hip. Most Stormtroopers didn't go in for that kind of flash, but he was a bit special. If a member of the Imperial Recruiting Department had been present, they'd have taken a picture and sent it to every chilly world in the Empire, probably with the words "WE NEED YOU!" or maybe "JOIN UP NOW!" at the bottom. Beneath his helmet, the man grinned.
"Sir!" a voice registered in his right earpiece. He turned to see two of his men dragging a shell-shocked man dressed in furs towards him. When they got to five feet, they let go and saluted. He returned the salute, noting that the rebel looked ready to keel over. He touched his helmet mike with his tongue.
"Name, rank," he said flatly. The rebel blinked at him, like a barve caught in a skimmer's headlights. He reached out and shook the man's shoulder. "Name. Rank." The words came more harshly this time.
"M-Mantag Yullis," the man stammered. "Petty Officer." The Snowtrooper scowled. This man was useless. He was about to order his men to take the prisoner away when a black form exiting the hanger caught his eye. In an instant, he snapped to attention and saluted. His squad followed his example.
"Have you found something?" Lord Darth Vader questioned.
"Only a Petty Officer, milord," the trooper replied, dropping his salute. "I was about to order his imprisonment."
The Dark Lord's gaze didn't leave the trooper's face for even a moment. "Remove your helmet," he said.The man did so without hesitation. Immediately, the Hoth wind picked up his long white hair and blasted it across his face, but the trooper didn't flinch. He'd grown up in conditions like this. "We have met before," Vader said. There was not a trace of uncertainty in his voice.
"Yes milord. Zecundis campaign. My squad escorted you to...meet...with the governor."
"Yes," Vader said, more softly. Then, he turned and regarded the prisoner. "This man is useless," he said a moment later. "Dispose of him, then return to your dropship. We are leaving this world."
"Of course milord," the trooper said, but Vader had already turned to leave. By now, the prisoner looked almost as white as the snow.
"No, don't kill me!" He pleaded. "I surrender! I-"
"It's too late for that," the trooper replied. He tossed his helmet to one of his men, then drew his vibrosword and thumbed it on. "Lord Vader gave me an order," he said, a cruel smile forming on his features. "And one doesn't last long by disobeying Lord Vader's orders."
The trooper kicked out and caught the man in the stomach. The rebel bent over, gasping. The trooper sidestepped, spun his wrist, and brought the vibrosword down on the back of the man's neck. Flesh, muscle, nerves, and bone all gave way before the thrumming weapon. The rebel's head hit the ground a moment before the rest of him his, staining the perfect snow a bright red.
Kuja knelt and wiped the sword on the man's fur jacket and resheathed it. He held his hands out, and the trooper holding his helmet tossed it back to him. "You heard Lord Vader, gentlemen," he said. "We're heading back to Blizzard Nine. Move."
As his squad began the march back to the AT-ATs, Kuja took a quick look around. The base was already being abandoned, with fewer and fewer troopers exiting. At his feet, the rebel's blood was already starting to freeze. Kuja took a deep breath of the Hoth air before he put his helmet back on. How sweet it felt.
Yeah, and the rebels won glorious freedom for the galaxy to be annihilated by ugly alien invaders in an orgy of stupidity. Sure you want to call that better?
How many times has it been stated in this thread that its about the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire, not the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant?
Nice, Kuja, did you write it yourself? But what does it have to do with the topic? Unless your point was to make the Empire look like an inferior choice, in which case you succeeded brilliantly.
Rogue 9 wrote:Nice, Kuja, did you write it yourself?
Yes. Just now.
But what does it have to do with the topic?
It's about choosing loyalties, isn't it? Haven't I just made mine abundantly clear?
Unless your point was to make the Empire look like an inferior choice, in which case you succeeded brilliantly.
You poor, poor, man. All that Rebel sedition has wormed its way into your mind and taken root. It has clearly poisoned you against those who would offer their every aid. But have heart, my friend. You may yet be freed so that you may serve the Empire with grace and dignity!
I am aware of that. Believe me, I'm fully aware of that fact. Laws that allow arbitrary and summary execution, however, are rather detrimental to that freedom. Laws can be used to ensure freedom or to crush it, depending entirely upon what is written into them.
Rogue 9 wrote:How many times has it been stated in this thread that its about the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire, not the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant?
If the choice is between the Rebel Alliance and the Galactic Empire, I choose the Alliance. If the choice is between the New Republic and Imperial Remnant, I choose the Imperial Remnant. Pellaeon may not have been the most brilliant Imperial officer in the Fleet, but he was certainly one of the ... nicest.
Anyway there is a clear difference between the two, and probably the best ironical twist to have been made in the EU.
Yes. Pellaeon owns. Now then, where were we? Ah yes, I was saying how I could shoot down TIE Defenders from an assault bomber. Oh wait, that was earlier. Never mind.
Was the Alliance's political platform anything else besides re-establishing the Republic? Was it trying to establish a regime completely different from the Old Republica and the Empire?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the Alliance was a counter-revolution, trying to re-establish the Old Republic, and do away with the new Imperial Regime. If that's the case, I couldn't support their movement because it appears the Old Republic was a dangerously ineffective government.
Bertie Wooster wrote:Was the Alliance's political platform anything else besides re-establishing the Republic? Was it trying to establish a regime completely different from the Old Republica and the Empire?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the Alliance was a counter-revolution, trying to re-establish the Old Republic, and do away with the new Imperial Regime. If that's the case, I couldn't support their movement because it appears the Old Republic was a dangerously ineffective government.
Pretty much.
They wanted to re-establish the Old Republic(I mean this even denotes their new name).
Also another reason I wouldn't support the Alliance is barring Luke Skywalker, they were never going to win. Only Luke was the one who made the Emperor arrogant, besides that he could've crushed the Alliance like so many eggs.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Another thing I'd like to point out is while something like the Death Stars crew may seem a lot, remember that the entire crew isn't operating at once, you have crew rotation to think of. We don't know what the Empires typical rotations are, could be 3, 4 or even 5. Just incase nobody had that in mind.
History? I love history! First, something happens, then, something else happens! It's so sequential!! Thank you first guy, for writing things down!
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Cairbur: The Bible can, and has, been used to prove anything and everything (practically!)
StarshipTitanic: Prove it.
1- The Empire is the legal government. The Emperor was given his power by the Republic Senate. Everyone choose to trust him, now suck it up and deal with it
2- The Empire was fairly hands off as long as you didn't cross the line. They quite openly said 'if you are a rebel, you are dead'. By joining the rebellion, you are saying 'if you catch me, I know I'm dead'
3- The Empire was stable. The Old Republic, Rebellion, and the new Republic that followed are not.
4- There was actually little in the way of the rebellion. I mean, come on, even in the EU books, Leia has been qouted saying it was really just a small amount of people fighting the Empire.
Case in point, let's take the people that should have really hated the Empire. The little person, man in the streets
Did he really care? Nope. He got up, went to work, came home, got paid.
I'll admit, the Imperial military could be rough on Officers (Darth Vader comes to mind), and you do occasionally have the occasional ass-hole Moff to contend with. But the Moffs all could not have been bad, otherwise you would have seen alot of rebelling all at once.
Case in point, if you look over the TimeTales timeline (when it's up), and read over the EU entries, all the worlds be punished were for criminal offenses (i.e helping the rebellion). There are a few unfortunately incidents (even Darth Vader says that in Shadows of the Empire), like a biological experiment getting lose and nessecitating the sterilization of the area to prevent a planet-wide (or worse) epidemic.
The Empire did pull some darker stuff, but they were at war with there own citizens. In a war like that, public opinion matters.
Let me run it to you this way. The Emperor poisoned a few rebel worlds. And? What's the difference then posioning/biological weaponing the planet and wiping out the civilian population and leaving the industry and biosphere intact, and a massive military bombing campaign against a foreign power on earth?
Oh yeah, the bombing campaign does more damage, with few deaths.
The Empire was just brutally efficient with some racist assholes in places of power.
If the rebellion had been smart, they just would have bumped off the racist Moffs until they all got the point.
The Empire was stable? Hang on a second - is this the same Empire which had to contend with a rebellion, which dealt some pretty serious damage for a small organisation? Is this the same empire which, as soon as Palpy bought it at Endor, turned on each other (warlordism)?
Stofsk wrote:The Empire was stable? Hang on a second - is this the same Empire which had to contend with a rebellion, which dealt some pretty serious damage for a small organisation? Is this the same empire which, as soon as Palpy bought it at Endor, turned on each other (warlordism)?
The Empire was designed to self-destruct in Palpatine's absence, so the Imperial Civil War doesn't count.
I believe in a sign of Zeta.
[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]
"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The Empire was designed to self-destruct in Palpatine's absence, so the Imperial Civil War doesn't count.
That doesn't make any sense. If the empire was designed to fall in Palpy's absence then how can it be considered a stable government? It doesn't sound terribly balanced to me.
