Who would you rather serve under?

[FTeik]

Questionable, since according to the HttE-sourcebook Thrawn only returned with a shuttle and nobody in the empire had an idea of the HoT at the time of the duology. Are you suggesting, that all of those returners kept quiet about imperial assets in the UR?

[Lord Pounder]

More to the point I don't think game data really counts for much. The books say he had one Star Destroyer, the Admonitor IIRC, that overrides the game data.

On a related note what happened to the Admonitor. My theory was that it was scrapped to arm the the Hand and build the other Chiss fighters saw in the HoT.

[Sharp-kun]

Thrawn had more than one Star Destroyer in the Unknown Regions. See TIE Fighter. Perhaps he was sent out there with one, but more were sent to him.

I wouldn't say what we see in TIE Figter os Thrawns "mapping". He had a clear purpose. Hunt down Zarrin.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Ah; I see.

Whenever Thrawn has ships pre-TTT, they of course must be assets he's withdrawing from his vast bank of warships according to Mittyphiles.

But in TTT, when he desperately needed ships? Hell no, he had to leave them in the UR.

Obviously GADM Thrawn's command in the Unknown Regions is not the same as his command chasing down and eliminating GADM Zaarin.

[FTeik]

There are four possibilities:

a) the imperial based assets of Thrawn were called back by Sate Pestage or Ysanne Isard before TTT,

b) he couldn´t use them, because they were needed to keep his own private empire under control,

c) they were there at least during TLC, but Thrawn waited to get the cloning-facility of the MountTantiss running and to get ships from elsewhere (by stealing) to keep their origins hidden. Would explain nicely, how he could be so successful when all he officially had in addition to the regular imperial military were less than 200 Katana-Dreadnoughts and 20,000 clones every two weeks.

d) as IP insists, his forces weren´t very large to begin with.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think we should all realize which one the Burden of Proof, Parsimony, and Suspension of Disbelief favor.

[Trytostaydead]

I think we should all realize which one the Burden of Proof, Parsimony, and Suspension of Disbelief favor.

What we do know is that there are least several Imperial garrisons out in the UR. We also know from General Fel's admission was that they were constantly kept busy. And while approximately 30x8 = 240 sectors were mapped in by Thrawn, we can agree probably only a few of those were held by Thrawn's forces. Even with the renegade Chiss enlisting with Thrawn and the ~37,000 he took with him about his Stardestroyer.. it still seems like an extraordinarily paltry amount without additional forces (i.e. the Emperor sending Thrawn more troops).

Mara even suggests that Palpatine helped set Thrawn up in the UR, and Skywalker first made the suggestion when he glanced around the control room in the HoT. Which could probably make sense, even from the quote you gave me from the Dark Empire Sourcebook, I don't think the Emperor ever felt threatened by Thrawn and sent Thrawn out in the UR to tame whatever was out there and not leave a possible knife at his back. And on the plus, not only did both Palp and Thrawn get what they wanted, but Palpatine also curried the favor of those that were eager to see Thrawn fall.

Also, Thrawn always seemed intent on his goals out there in the UR, hence the Baron Fel clones scattered all over the galaxy and God knows what else. He probably also created various stormtrooper Baron Fel equivalents too, and just the amount to put out to put up various strong core groups to start resistances in cases of emergencies must've ate up a lot of Mount Tantiss' resources that he could've been putting directly into the war effort against Coruscant, not to mention the experiments Thrawn conducted (Tierce).

So it seems understandable that Thrawn would leave whatever heavy guns he has out there facing out, and which is why none of his people came running back either when they heard Thrawn was killed or in trouble. They were told he'd come back in 10 years and to keep at their job which was their number one priority. And Thrawn probably didn't feel he needed a SD or some such to convince Pellaeon to surrender command.

But then again, this is all just conjecture.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The comment about SoD is about the fact that a realistic SWU requires a Unknown Regions out in the galactic halo; which has a low density and is very dispersed.

Therefore an enormous body of territory in the UR may only occupy an area comparable to a modest sector such as the Chommell Sector, and require only a similar parcel of forces.

I direct you again to the fact that obviously if the UR did not require his efforts, some ships from there if plentiful should have been spared; also, it is hard to believe a huge Imperial command could be so thoroughly subverted as Fel and Parck that all of a significant armada refused to heed Palpatine's recall upon his return to power.

[Trytostaydead]

I direct you again to the fact that obviously if the UR did not require his efforts, some ships from there if plentiful should have been spared; also, it is hard to believe a huge Imperial command could be so thoroughly subverted as Fel and Parck that all of a significant armada refused to heed Palpatine's recall upon his return to power.

I guess you can look at it that way. But you can also probably agree that Thrawn perhaps thought it was the best time to re-unify the Empire and felt it would be worth it to retake the Empire, restore Order while others like Fel and Parck could hold down the fort. His initial presence in the UR could've been the initial setup and pacification.. and with a relative calmness and waiting for the other shoe to drop, might as well get the Empire back in order again.

Fel, being the easiest to address was a loyal son of the Empire. But then switched after the Emperor's fall I believe when Isard was going nuts. Then Thrawn brought him back and showed him around and Fel, who loves home more than politics or anything else, agreed that whatever Thrawn was doing was probably the most important. As the clones admit, Fel was loyal to the Empire before Isard. As to why they didn't come back when Palpatine came back, probably because the same reason they didn't join Thrawn in retaking the Empire. Fel was needed out there.

And for Parck. The guy kissed Thrawn's feet, no doubt about that. He seemed to think that any true warrior unmotivated by petty title squabbles would follow Thrawn as opposed to anyone else. So I guess it's more of "I'm choosing my commander."

[McC]

I just thought of something while reading this page that supports Vader not being as "indiscriminate" as Thrawn in his execution of officers. When choking Ozzel, Vader says, "You have failed me for the last time, Admiral" (emphasis mine).

The "last time."

This would imply that there was at least one other significant failure in Ozzel's career, if not additional failures. All of this, despite his Admiral rank. It's even possible, then, that Ozzel's failures happened while serving under Vader as a part of Death Squadron.

So, perhaps Vader's apparently rash execution of a high-ranking officer wasn't nearly as rash as some of us believe...

Just something to chew on

[Illuminatus Primus]

I really love how Fel and Parck are treated as legit.

Let's see; the last time Fel is seen as an Imperial officer is when he defects; Parck when he accompanies the Admonitor with Thrawn into the Unknown Regions.

After that point, the only thing we see them as is as defectors to a splinter group called the Empire of the Hand and wearing different uniforms, and pledging loyalty to Thrawn's ideals specifically.

All of the other Imperials and former Imperials as of Palpatine's return at the end of the Imperial Civil War reaffirmed allegiance to him or were executed.

I sincerely doubt Palpy gave them a leave to love Thrawn before him and stay out there with valuable fleet resources.

What, do you think at some indeterminant time after his final death they also said, "hell, let's declare ourselves the Empire of the Hand, get new spiffy uniforms, and posthumously declare allegiance to the ideals of Thrawn"?

[Trytostaydead]

Remember Mara's question to Parck? Something along the lines of, "I don't think the Emperor would have approved of humans and aliens mixing.."

To which Parck sobered up and said something like, "that is why we must be very careful," which probably accounts for a great deal of secrecy. I doubt unless the Emperor was feeding Thrawn sector fleets at a time, Thrawn had to take a very different anti-alien stance espoused by the Empire at the time.

As for "legit." What I don't really understand IP, is your beef with people who would rather serve Thrawn and his ideals and call them traitors to the Empire.

The whole rebellion was exactly that. A rebellion. Madine was a traitor in every regard. Han Solo was kicked out of the Empire and then became a rebel, so what does that make him? Mon Monthma.. etc.

And how about all those others in the High Command that were completely self-serving and even tried to face down the Emperor, or we somehow dreaming dreams of grandeur.

Thrawn, while definately obtaining the loyalty of his men was still working with the Empire, and I see no evidence that he was planning to usurp the Emperor at any time. Hell, even Darth Vader was plannign to usurp the Emperor!

[Illuminatus Primus]

It doesn't matter.

What I can't understand is why there's all the pandering and irrelevent comparisons when the simple fact is they did defect; therefore they are traitors.

The other traitors don't change anything.

[Trytostaydead]

It doesn't matter.

What I can't understand is why there's all the pandering and irrelevent comparisons when the simple fact is they did defect; therefore they are traitors.

The other traitors don't change anything.

Wait. If I recall correctly the Uniforms that Parck and Fel wore were IMPERIAL uniforms. The Chiss wore a custom uniform, kind of like they were auxillary Nazi's to make a comparison.

And I don't think Thrawn himself was ever a traitor. I don't believe that's insinuated anywhere. Pellaeon himself says Thrawn was very much itnerested in Order and Stability, something the Empire offered which is why he came back on the Empire's side and not the New Republics.

And even if you bring up Parck's, "we don't know what side he's going to come down on.." it was a looong time after the war basically ended and the Empire was all but defeated. Kind of like jumping ships when everything's lost.

Parck never gave up the Imperial uniform. Fel gave it up once (after the Emperor died) and then put it back on. And even Mara wasn't convinced that the reborn Emperor was really the Emperor.

So if they're traitors they're traitors. But they're my kind of traitors.. at least they went to serve something that could believe in and felt was a higher, nobler, and very important cause while still maintaining their roots.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wait. If I recall correctly the Uniforms that Parck and Fel wore were IMPERIAL uniforms. The Chiss wore a custom uniform, kind of like they were auxillary Nazi's to make a comparison.

They wore a modified version and called themselves the Empire of the Hand; they are a distinct organization. By Dark Journey, General Fel is wearing the "black uniform of Mitth'raw'nuroudo's Household Phalanx."

And I don't think Thrawn himself was ever a traitor. I don't believe that's insinuated anywhere.

Do you think they just decided to name their group "the Empire of the Hand [of Thrawn]" randomly after his and Palpy's final death?

Why do you think Thrawn was cut out of the secret of Palpy's return, and instead sucked dry of the best resources, and then eliminated at Palpatine's behest?

Who do you think created the quasi-Imperial, pro-alien, in-bed-with-the-Chiss group which swears loyalty to him specifically?

Pellaeon himself says Thrawn was very much itnerested in Order and Stability, something the Empire offered which is why he came back on the Empire's side and not the New Republics.

Funny the Empire supposedly offers order and stability where everytime Palpy dies the whole thing falls apart and they're slaughtering each other. Say what you will of the NR's Senate, and bel Iblis, but they're not killing each other.

Maybe just maybe all of the EoH guys are absorbed in the cult of the Leader because Thrawn needed a reserve base of reliable and fanatically and personally loyal minions? Why is the HoT located between the Empire of the Hand and the Known Regions? If it is a forward defense base, why is it positions more like a reserve base for perhaps a reconquest of the Known Regions, rather than transposed between the Empire of the Hand and the countless threats? Maybe Thrawn was executed because he failed his test of devotion. Harrsk and Teradoc were welcomed back. Thrawn's death was no accident.

And even if you bring up Parck's, "we don't know what side he's going to come down on.." it was a looong time after the war basically ended and the Empire was all but defeated. Kind of like jumping ships when everything's lost.

The Empire and Empire of the Hand allows him to have a reserve of a fanatically loyal minions with dirt and tiny connections everywhere and on everyone, and convienently allows Thrawn to become a military despot, just like he was in the Unknown Regions, just like he was when he returned to the Known Regions. Thrawn's about Thrawn's power before anything else.

Parck never gave up the Imperial uniform. Fel gave it up once (after the Emperor died) and then put it back on.

No; the Empire of the Hand wears its own uniform, and admits they use similarity to the Galactic Empire for psychological value only.

And even Mara wasn't convinced that the reborn Emperor was really the Emperor.

Good for her. Everyone else was. And the "reborn Emperor" really was Palpatine. Warlord Harrsk and HADM Teradoc were returned to the fold; Thrawn was terminated--you do the math.

So if they're traitors they're traitors. But they're my kind of traitors.. at least they went to serve something that could believe in and felt was a higher, nobler, and very important cause while still maintaining their roots.

Like what, prepared to die for whatever Thrawn told them to do? Perhaps actions like assaulting the Outbound Flight without provocation? Perhaps returning and oppressing the Noghri, and having no intention of any political reform: no, the natural place was Thrawn, as the absolute military despot.

[Rogue 9]

More to the point I don't think game data really counts for much. The books say he had one Star Destroyer, the Admonitor IIRC, that overrides the game data.

On a related note what happened to the Admonitor. My theory was that it was scrapped to arm the the Hand and build the other Chiss fighters saw in the HoT.

Why the hell would you scrap a Star Destroyer to arm a stationary base and build fighters?

[Lord Pounder]

Where else did the Hand of Thrawn get all the turbo lasers and hangers full of those weird Chiss fighters, that looked very like Tie's but not quite.

That plus all the equipment we saw in the Hand, Those heavy duty power conduits for example.

[Rogue 9]

Okay, so maybe they did, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A Star Destroyer is of a lot more military use as a spacegoing vessel then it is broken up for parts for a stationary ground installation.

[Stofsk]

Okay, so maybe they did, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A Star Destroyer is of a lot more military use as a spacegoing vessel then it is broken up for parts for a stationary ground installation.

Maybe the SD was heavily damaged, and they cannibalised parts of it to create the base?

[Lord Pounder]

Okay, so maybe they did, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A Star Destroyer is of a lot more military use as a spacegoing vessel then it is broken up for parts for a stationary ground installation.

Maybe the SD was heavily damaged, and they cannibalised parts of it to create the base?

One of those hundreds of nameless horrors perhaps?

[invader_skutch]

I dunno, I guess I'd rather go for honor than survival. Thrawn seems to be kind of an idiot...you only have to study their art?! Then you can defeat them?! I'm sorry, but what "art" does the New Republic churn out for Thrawn to study? Has he defeated them? Would you rather say to your buddies when you're kickin back cold ones that you'd served under Thrawn of the empire remanent, or Lord Darth Vader...on the Death Star? Serving under Vader sounds a heck of a lot cooler to me, and if I survived it'd be like icing on the cake. An analogy today would be like who would you rather serve under, Eisenhower or Bush Jr.? Sure, Bush Jr., like Thrawn, is a bit more subtle and conniving, but Eisenhower has about a million time more badass going for him, like Vader.

[FTeik]

I doubt anybody would wait ten years for Vader to return.

[consequences]

I doubt anybody would wait ten years for Vader to return.

I don't know, SW fans seem to have waited more than that.

[Raptor 597]

I''d serve under Vader. He rewarded excellent work like Piett's and understood when mistakes. Besides, I wouldn't want to be Pellaeon's crew; they aren't promoted so quickly or transferred.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I doubt anybody would wait ten years for Vader to return.

Stalin still has his fans. As does Hitler.

The longevity of the loving praise heaped on your memory but your personal cache of sycophants does not really prove much.