Was the Rebel Alliance right?

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Were the Rebels right?

Yes! Palpatine needed to go
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72%
No, the Imperials were the good guys.
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28%
 
Total votes: 76

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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:I think that's a bunch of bullshit. In all other organizations in other movies you see much more diversity.
The Jedi of the Old Republic? They number only in the thousands and recruit only from Force Sensitives.
The Naboo? A relatively small planet, and only a tiny defense force. I see female pilots but no female soldier.
The Rebels? They are tiny compared to the Empire, scale comes into play yet again.
All right, fine. Movies only, why is the military comprise of humans in the first place if there are aliens that are superior to them? Why not have all TIE Fighter pilots/speeder bike scouts/etc. be any one of the aliens seen in the pod race in TPM, since their reflexes are better than human reflexes? Anakin was only able to podrace because of his Force abilities.
Better reflexes, but that's only one attribute. The ability for teamwork, use of sensors, etc, may be vastly inferior in a lot of alien species. Then there's logistics (concerns about dietary requirements, brought up again and again, and ignored again and again) to consider. And then again, how do you know that members of human-like species (with compatible physiology) weren't inside the armour?
Why not have all infantry units be Wookies, since they are physically stronger? If they are going to standardize weapons, vehicles, controls, languages, etc. then they ought to pick the most efficient species for each one as the model. But no, they pick humans. Why? There is no logical reason for it. The whole thing smacks of discrimination.
Obviously, numbers are an essential consideration. How much good would it do to standardize weapons, vehicles, controls, languages, etc. to physically superior species that are vastly outnumbered by humans? A blaster bolt doesn't care if you are human or a wookie when it blows a hole in you.
And I'm fairly certain you are assuming the Imperial officer in question is human, which sort of proves my point even further.
Standardisation, you've brought it up all by yourself. And yet again, scale comes into mind.
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Because they could just as easily be replaced by trusted people. Also, do you honestly believe the abolishment of the Imperial Senate was an "interim method"? It was permanent.
And if the structure itself remains a way that terrorists can take advantages of easily? Replacing corrupt senators with trusted people is one thing, making sure that not a single enemy of the state can take advantage of a bloated beauracratic mess is another.
Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if it really was intended as interim or not, I only threw this particular issue in as a possible reason of how the Empire (overre)acted in disolving the senate.
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Lord of the Farce wrote:The Jedi of the Old Republic? They number only in the thousands and recruit only from Force Sensitives.
The Naboo? A relatively small planet, and only a tiny defense force. I see female pilots but no female soldier.
The Rebels? They are tiny compared to the Empire, scale comes into play yet again.
Try the streets of Coruscant, Dexter's diner, the nightclub, with trillions of people on the planet, representative of the galaxy as a whole, right?
Better reflexes, but that's only one attribute. The ability for teamwork, use of sensors, etc, may be vastly inferior in a lot of alien species.
The Geonosians seemed to work fine in their starfighters. Pick them.
Then there's logistics (concerns about dietary requirements, brought up again and again, and ignored again and again) to consider. And then again, how do you know that members of human-like species (with compatible physiology) weren't inside the armour?
I assume the Empire continued the tradition of cloning a single species for their military, so that means the human pilots seen in AotC transferred over into TIE Fighter pilot roles and other such roles. So again, pick Geonosians. (This is a movies-only argument. I'm sure there could be other aliens in the EU that are good pilots.)
Obviously, numbers are an essential consideration. How much good would it do to standardize weapons, vehicles, controls, languages, etc. to physically superior species that are vastly outnumbered by humans? A blaster bolt doesn't care if you are human or a wookie when it blows a hole in you.
That doesn't matter since the military is cloned. That is what I meant. Why pick a physically inferior species to clone for the role of infantry over a superior one? Discrimination.
Standardisation, you've brought it up all by yourself. And yet again, scale comes into mind.
Fine. Solve the problem of standardization by picking a good model to clone in the first place. Understand now?
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Try the streets of Coruscant, Dexter's diner, the nightclub, with trillions of people on the planet, representative of the galaxy as a whole, right?
Gee, I never knew that the streets of Coruscant is representative of front-line combat units. [Edit: And how often do we see Coruscant during the Empire? For all we know it is exactly the same as it was during the Old Republic.]
The Geonosians seemed to work fine in their starfighters. Pick them.
And how numerous were they? Oh yeah, compared to the humans, they weren't numerous at all.
I assume the Empire continued the tradition of cloning a single species for their military, so that means the human pilots seen in AotC transferred over into TIE Fighter pilot roles and other such roles. So again, pick Geonosians. (This is a movies-only argument. I'm sure there could be other aliens in the EU that are good pilots.)
Read above.
That doesn't matter since the military is cloned. That is what I meant. Why pick a physically inferior species to clone for the role of infantry over a superior one? Discrimination.
Read above. And why should cloning select species of small numbers be my only source of recruits, when I can have a galaxy of the most common species as well as the cloning to fight for me?
Fine. Solve the problem of standardization by picking a good model to clone in the first place. Understand now?
Read above.
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Lord of the Farce wrote:And if the structure itself remains a way that terrorists can take advantages of easily? Replacing corrupt senators with trusted people is one thing,


Which is precisely what I said and nothing more.
making sure that not a single enemy of the state can take advantage of a bloated beauracratic mess is another.
How could a single enemy of the state corrupt an entire Senate? Hmm...this sounds so familiar....what, by any chance, if the Empire is afraid....that someone like....oh...say....Palpatine.....might come along again and then do the same thing he did? Oh, the irony... :P
Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if it really was intended as interim or not, I only threw this particular issue in as a possible reason of how the Empire (overre)acted in disolving the senate.
So then you agree that it is unlikely it was merely an interim solution?
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Lord of the Farce wrote:Gee, I never knew that the streets of Coruscant is representative of front-line combat units. [Edit: And how often do we see Coruscant during the Empire? For all we know it is exactly the same as it was during the Old Republic.]
The streets of Coruscant proves that white male humans are not the numerically superior species in SW. Also, it doesn't matter much when the military is cloned.
And how numerous were they? Oh yeah, compared to the humans, they weren't numerous at all.
But that doesn't matter since they are being cloned!!! Numbers don't matter when cloning is involved. What is so hard about this to understand?
Read above.
Right, they are cloned. Numbers don't matter.
Read above. And why should cloning select species of small numbers be my only source of recruits, when I can have a galaxy of the most common species as well as the cloning to fight for me?
Lets see, because the original military of the Old Republic, which would become the Empire, was comprised entirely of clones. There was no recruiting. Why weren't aliens picked to be clones in the first place? Now do you get it? If the Empire was unbiased then its original military would have been made up of the physically superior species since everyone in it were clones.
Read above.
They were clones.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

The Jedi of the Old Republic? They number only in the thousands and recruit only from Force Sensitives.
No joke, Sherlock. Those who are not Force sensitive have a hard time becoming Jedi. You really expect them to recruit people who cannot do what the Jedi exist to do simply in the name of not discriminating against those who cannot use the Force? :roll:
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Post by consequences »

I'm going to be deliberately sexist here, but this time I'm not joking.

Something like 2/3rds of the women I have encountered in the military have had unreasonable issues with being ordered around. This is a percentage of women who willing joined the military too, not a conscript force. The U.S. military has had to make all sorts of accomodations for female recruits. Given that the GE has been shown to be massively under-militarised for its size and population, it is entirely possible that a sexist, but practical policy was put into effect, declaring it not worth the difficulty to integrate women into the force. This especially comes into play in any sort of grunt position, where the relative lack of upper body strength is most likely to be a major problem.
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:The streets of Coruscant proves that white male humans are not the numerically superior species in SW. Also, it doesn't matter much when the military is cloned.
Oh please. The majority of the RA's personnel are white human males throughout all three movies, by your own logic why shouldn't other species who are physiologically superior to humans be almost completely filling their ranks?
But that doesn't matter since they are being cloned!!! Numbers don't matter when cloning is involved. What is so hard about this to understand?
Right, they are cloned. Numbers don't matter.
Lets see, because the original military of the Old Republic, which would become the Empire, was comprised entirely of clones. There was no recruiting. Why weren't aliens picked to be clones in the first place? Now do you get it? If the Empire was unbiased then its original military would have been made up of the physically superior species since everyone in it were clones.
They were clones.
Maybe you should realise this: The Clone Army represents "special task force", there simply isn't enough clones to be everywhere in the galaxy at once. The number of clones created in 10 years can easily be matched by any major planet by far more than 1:1000, which is why recruiting is essential.
Rogue 9 wrote:No joke, Sherlock. Those who are not Force sensitive have a hard time becoming Jedi. You really expect them to recruit people who cannot do what the Jedi exist to do simply in the name of not discriminating against those who cannot use the Force? :roll:
If you have a problem about using diversity in the Jedi order like it's comparable to a standardized military organisation, IRG CommandoJoe is the one you should be talking to.
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Post by Lex »

So if the Clones are very special, why not use a species better designed for combats?

There definitly is a woman in the Hoth personal, I saw at least 2 in the hangars and one in the battle. And if you keep talking about scale, well how much of the NR personal was showed at endor? A small task force(1 female was in it), 2 Starfighters and the NR command ship filled with Mon Cals.
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

Lex wrote:So if the Clones are very special, why not use a species better designed for combats?
Besides the fact that the Clone source was choosen because he was one of the best combatant in the galaxy? The exact same equipment used by the Clones can also be distributed to the members of the most common species in the galaxy to boost the strength of provincial forces.
There definitly is a woman in the Hoth personal, I saw at least 2 in the hangars and one in the battle.
In the battle field? Care to provide a screen capture?
And if you keep talking about scale, well how much of the NR personal was showed at endor? A small task force(1 female was in it)
Which (IIRC), besides the command team volunteers who were friends of the commander, was composed entirely out of white human males?
2 Starfighters and the NR command ship filled with Mon Cals.
IIRC, we see at least half a dozen pilots, and not a single alien among them. We also have ANH and TESB, where we don't see a single alien in their ranks.
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Post by Oberleutnant »

Lord of the Farce wrote:IIRC, we see at least half a dozen pilots, and not a single alien among them. We also have ANH and TESB, where we don't see a single alien in their ranks.
Nien Nunb was Lando's co-pilot during the Battle of Endor.
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Lord of the Farce wrote:Oh please. The majority of the RA's personnel are white human males throughout all three movies, by your own logic why shouldn't other species who are physiologically superior to humans be almost completely filling their ranks?
Because:
1. The Rebel Alliance does not clone.
2. The Rebel Alliance most likely obtained its recruits from the Imperial Academy when it first started out.
3. The Rebel Alliance was only starting out in ANH and TESB, which means it is unlikely they had many planets to recruit from anyway.
Maybe you should realise this: The Clone Army represents "special task force", there simply isn't enough clones to be everywhere in the galaxy at once. The number of clones created in 10 years can easily be matched by any major planet by far more than 1:1000, which is why recruiting is essential.
If it is a special task force, then recruiting soldiers into it would not be a concern. If it is not intended to be the main military force, why would they even need to consider having the same species as the rest of the military?
If you have a problem about using diversity in the Jedi order like it's comparable to a standardized military organisation, IRG CommandoJoe is the one you should be talking to.
I didn't limit it to the Jedi Order. I said all other organizations. Not necessarily bound to militaries.
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Oberleutnant wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:IIRC, we see at least half a dozen pilots, and not a single alien among them. We also have ANH and TESB, where we don't see a single alien in their ranks.
Nien Nunb was Lando's co-pilot during the Battle of Endor.
There's a starfighter pilot as well among them named Ten Numb.

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3

I'm fairly certain there are one or two more aliens in there somewhere. I remember seeing them in a picture of the Home One bridge. I can't find it though.
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Aha! Confirmation!

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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Because:
1. The Rebel Alliance does not clone.
2. The Rebel Alliance most likely obtained its recruits from the Imperial Academy when it first started out.
3. The Rebel Alliance was only starting out in ANH and TESB, which means it is unlikely they had many planets to recruit from anyway.
1. Irrelevant, the RA has no need for mass standardisation like the Empire, yet mirrors it in personnel composition.
2. And why is their main source from defected recruits, rather than from physiologically superior species?
3. Doesn't it strike you as odd that it was the humans who formed the entire core of the Rebellion?
Your own words about physiologically superior species is coming back at you.
If it is a special task force, then recruiting soldiers into it would not be a concern. If it is not intended to be the main military force, why would they even need to consider having the same species as the rest of the military?
Again, the same equipment used by the Clones can be used by the most populous species in the galaxy. This doesn't just mean that the equipment can be used to boost provincial forces, but also that mass production of the same equipment can be made to replenish the Clones locally.
I didn't limit it to the Jedi Order. I said all other organizations. Not necessarily bound to militaries.
And small non-military organisations are representative of a galaxy spanning military? :lol:
Oberleutnant wrote:Nien Nunb was Lando's co-pilot during the Battle of Endor.
Who might have been there only at the personal request of Lando.
IRG CommandoJoe wrote:There's a starfighter pilot as well among them named Ten Numb.
And where's your screen capture from the movie?

---
Anyway, here's a starfighter pilot count from the Annotated Screenplays:
INT. WEDGE'S X-FIGHTER -- COCKPIT
WEDGE: Red Leader standing by.
INT. GRAY LEADER'S X-FIGHTER -- COCKPIT
Gray Leader: Gray Leader standing by.
INT. GREEN LEADER'S X-FIGHTER -- COCKPIT
Green Leader: Green Leader standing by.
All three leaders, humans.
INT. REBEL COCKPIT
REBEL PILOT: There's too many of them.
INT. RED TWO'S COCKPIT
RED TWO: Got it!
INT. RED THREE'S COCKPIT
RED THREE: Three of them coming in, twenty degrees!
Wedge's wingmen, human.
INT. REBEL COCKPIT
REBEL PILOT: She's gonna blow!
INT. REBEL Y-WING -- COCKPIT
Y-WING PILOT: I'm hit!
INT. REBEL COCKPIT
REBEL PILOT: I'm on it, Gold Leader!
PILOT: Copy, Gold Leader.
Including the guy who crashes his A-Wing into the Executor, that's up to 11 human pilots. So much for the Rebels obeying the "aliens have better reflexes" line, eh?
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Post by Rogue 9 »

The guy who crashed his A-wing into the Executor was Green Leader, in case you failed to notice. Ten pilots. (One black and one Asian, I'll note. Both noticeably absent from Imperial ranks.)
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

Rogue 9 wrote:The guy who crashed his A-wing into the Executor was Green Leader, in case you failed to notice.
:P "from the Annotated Screenplays"
Ten pilots. (One black and one Asian, I'll note. Both noticeably absent from Imperial ranks.)
How many "heads" of the TIE pilots do we see? And even if we can see them, do you happen to have a special version of the Star Wars Triology where they wear semi-exposed helmets? :P

EDIT: And you also failed to address IRG CommandoJoe's problem about superior reflexes in alien pilots and such. :wink:
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Lord of the Farce wrote:1. Irrelevant, the RA has no need for mass standardisation like the Empire, yet mirrors it in personnel composition.
It is not irrelevant! The Rebel Alliance does not clone, so it does not have the ability of creating a large enough force of physically superior species like the Empire could if it wanted to. Again, this comes back to the fact that you could standardize your military by picking a model military to clone in the first place.
2. And why is their main source from defected recruits, rather than from physiologically superior species?
Because they do not clone. Also it is tied in with 3. They didn't have enough worlds committed to their cause at that time. Notice I said, "when they first started out."
3. Doesn't it strike you as odd that it was the humans who formed the entire core of the Rebellion?
Your own words about physiologically superior species is coming back at you.
It does not strike me as odd. If the Empire was as brutal as it was in the OT during the gap between AotC and ANH, then I can safely say it came down hard on all non-white male humans and they were too scared to stand up for themselves. It was years into the war before the Mon Calamari would join the Rebellion. And they were the chief suppliers of heavy capital ships to the RA. Why should other worlds have joined before them? Tarkin himself even said fear would keep everyone in line with the New Order. And it seemed to work up until the Rebels destroyed the Death Star.
Again, the same equipment used by the Clones can be used by the most populous species in the galaxy. This doesn't just mean that the equipment can be used to boost provincial forces, but also that mass production of the same equipment can be made to replenish the Clones locally.
Damn it. I ran out of time. I'll continue this tomorrow. I'm going to do something out of order, simply because I don't want to forget and it's rather quick to do:
And where's your screen capture from the movie?
I gave three of them. It looks like Nien Numb, but it's not. It's another Sullustan named Ten Numb.

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Ah, shit. I realize what you're saying. This is going to sound far-fetched and you'll think I'm bullshitting you, but that really isn't Nien Numb on the bridge next to Lando. It's Ten Numb. I read about this in an Insider issue. Hell if I remember which one it is, but I'll have to find it now. Sonofabitch! :x
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:It is not irrelevant! The Rebel Alliance does not clone, so it does not have the ability of creating a large enough force of physically superior species like the Empire could if it wanted to. Again, this comes back to the fact that you could standardize your military by picking a model military to clone in the first place.
Because they do not clone. Also it is tied in with 3. They didn't have enough worlds committed to their cause at that time. Notice I said, "when they first started out."
You're right, it's not irrelevant. The fact is, the Alliance should have been taking in recruits from every single possible avenue, yet their core was composed entirely out of humans. And it's hardly "when they first started out", since by the time of Hoth at least three years has passed since Yavin, and not a thing had changed. It only looks worse when you consider that the RA has been around formally since well before Yavin, and the Rebellion has existed since Palpatine had became more than just a mere senator.
It does not strike me as odd. If the Empire was as brutal as it was in the OT during the gap between AotC and ANH, then I can safely say it came down hard on all non-white male humans and they were too scared to stand up for themselves. It was years into the war before the Mon Calamari would join the Rebellion. And they were the chief suppliers of heavy capital ships to the RA. Why should other worlds have joined before them? Tarkin himself even said fear would keep everyone in line with the New Order. And it seemed to work up until the Rebels destroyed the Death Star.
I'm not asking why entire worlds didn't join the RA, I'm asking why individuals of species that are supposedly physiologically superior to humans with grudges against the Empire was not filling the ranks of RA starfighter squadrons.
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Post by PainRack »

consequences wrote:I'm going to be deliberately sexist here, but this time I'm not joking.

Something like 2/3rds of the women I have encountered in the military have had unreasonable issues with being ordered around. This is a percentage of women who willing joined the military too, not a conscript force. The U.S. military has had to make all sorts of accomodations for female recruits. Given that the GE has been shown to be massively under-militarised for its size and population, it is entirely possible that a sexist, but practical policy was put into effect, declaring it not worth the difficulty to integrate women into the force. This especially comes into play in any sort of grunt position, where the relative lack of upper body strength is most likely to be a major problem.
I won't use the words unreasonable issues.

I use the words outright bitches who tear you a new arsehole. Frankly, every female I saw who is not of captain rank and above have been outright bitches who like to pull their weight and beyond around...
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Lord of the Farce wrote:You're right, it's not irrelevant. The fact is, the Alliance should have been taking in recruits from every single possible avenue, yet their core was composed entirely out of humans. And it's hardly "when they first started out", since by the time of Hoth at least three years has passed since Yavin, and not a thing had changed. It only looks worse when you consider that the RA has been around formally since well before Yavin, and the Rebellion has existed since Palpatine had became more than just a mere senator.
Wait a minute...the Rebellion existed before Palpatine was a senator? What?! I never heard about this before. Back up your statements, please.
I'm not asking why entire worlds didn't join the RA, I'm asking why individuals of species that are supposedly physiologically superior to humans with grudges against the Empire was not filling the ranks of RA starfighter squadrons.
According to you, the Rebellion existed well before Palpatine even started his rise to power. I think I need you to explain such a bold statement before I say anything else. Frankly, I am unsure of what I thought was the truth now.

But I can tell you something that I am sure of. I found the Insider issue with a picture of the Home One bridge/briefing room area. Issue #59, page 86-87. There's a big picture of the bridge, with a caption that reads:
SW Insider #59 wrote:Standing next to Wedge during the briefing is Ten Numb. This B-wing pilot is commonly mistaken for Lando's co-pilot Nien Numb. Nien got his name from that species being number nine on the creature list, and of course Ten came after.
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IRG CommandoJoe
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Post by IRG CommandoJoe »

Here is a lower-quality screencap. It looks a lot like Nien Numb's outfit, but if you observe the straps, it's evident that it is a flightsuit.

Image
Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him? -Obi-Wan Kenobi

"In the unlikely event that someone comes here, hates everything we stand for, and then donates a big chunk of money anyway, I will thank him for his stupidity." -Darth Wong, Lord of the Sith

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Lord of the Farce
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Wait a minute...the Rebellion existed before Palpatine was a senator? What?! I never heard about this before. Back up your statements, please.
The Rebellion existed since Palpatine became more than a senator.
WEG 2nd Edition Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, Chapter One: Birth of the Rebellion wrote:There was Rebellion long before there was a Rebel Alliance. Almost immediately after Senator Palpatine became President Palpatine and began his long campaign of oppression, Resistance units sprang up in every corner of the galaxy.
According to you, the Rebellion existed well before Palpatine even started his rise to power. I think I need you to explain such a bold statement before I say anything else. Frankly, I am unsure of what I thought was the truth now.
Read above.
SW Insider #59 wrote:Standing next to Wedge during the briefing is Ten Numb. This B-wing pilot is commonly mistaken for Lando's co-pilot Nien Numb. Nien got his name from that species being number nine on the creature list, and of course Ten came after.
Wow, one alien pilot against 10 confirmed human pilots. And somehow, yet again, humans dominate the core of the briefing room.
"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists
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