Could mechanical Vader beat ANYONE??

[Eframepilot]

Would one fight determine which is more skilled with the Force?

Perhaps if Yoda didn't go into exile and tried fighting Palpatine again, there might have been different results. I would have laid low for a short while, concentrated, and gathered my thoughts so as to regain lost abilities and sharpen rusty skills.

I'm sure if Yoda did this, he could have beaten Sidious the second time 'round.

Sidious would have been ready for him the second time, and would have nothing to prove. Sidious would have the stormtroopers loosed on Yoda immediately; coupled with Sidious's own powers, this would mean near instant death. Yoda had exactly one try when Sidious was not expecting a Jedi of Yoda's caliber to attack him, and he blew it.

It was only his ego that kept Sidious in the room in the first place. He probably intended to retreat at first because greater power in the Force is not a guarantee of victory against someone like Yoda, as Obi-Wan's victory over the more powerful Darth Vader proved.

[Ghost Rider]

Would one fight determine which is more skilled with the Force?

Perhaps if Yoda didn't go into exile and tried fighting Palpatine again, there might have been different results. I would have laid low for a short while, concentrated, and gathered my thoughts so as to regain lost abilities and sharpen rusty skills.

I'm sure if Yoda did this, he could have beaten Sidious the second time 'round.

How?

The reason he confronted Palpatine was simply this was the most oppurtune moment. He was seperated from his apprentice, was not surrounded by a legion of his men. Also sharpening your skills does not mean that Palps is going to sit there and snort glitterstim and fuck Twileks.

He's going to enhance his skills and now has a huge leap forward since he's deprived you of your base of operations.

[Cos Dashit]

I suppose my faith in Yoda blinds me. I seem to have a weak spot for him. When he said he was going into exile in RotS, I was extremely pissed off and started yelling in the theater.

I didn't take into account that Sidious wouldn't have anything to prove anymore and would kill him in an unfair way.

[Star-Blighter]

Someone who is as pathetic as vader was in the suit isn't going to take on multiple jedi, or even a half decent one, he lost to his son who had barely an training and just beat him cause he tapped into his anger???

c'mon, does that mean ANOTHER jedi could have done that too if it wasn't luke?

Remember that Vader draws heavily on the dark-side to make up for his physical short-comings. Before he got the suit he was foretold to be an incredibly powerful force-user, quite possibly the most powerful one to date. Then he got FUBARed and had to spend the rest of his life as a never -to-be-realised potential. Physically Vader couldn't stand up to a powerful jedi in swordsmanship (atleast in my opinion), however Vader is consistant in the OT in that he uses the force to get his advantages and hammers at his oponents with brute-strength. His prosthetics can likely match or even exceed the strength of a normal human, but when faced with an equally powerful jedi that hasn't suffered the physical and emotional damage Vader has suffered he'll likely lose.

Frankly I think Vader's strength in the force and skill after recieving his suit is merely a shadow of what he could have been, and THAT is why he isn't special among his peers. Vader is "damaged goods".

[Cos Dashit]

Someone who is as pathetic as vader was in the suit isn't going to take on multiple jedi, or even a half decent one, he lost to his son who had barely an training and just beat him cause he tapped into his anger???

c'mon, does that mean ANOTHER jedi could have done that too if it wasn't luke?

Remember that Vader draws heavily on the dark-side to make up for his physical short-comings. Before he got the suit he was foretold to be an incredibly powerful force-user, quite possibly the most powerful one to date. Then he got FUBARed and had to spend the rest of his life as a never -to-be-realised potential. Physically Vader couldn't stand up to a powerful jedi in swordsmanship (atleast in my opinion), however Vader is consistant in the OT in that he uses the force to get his advantages and hammers at his oponents with brute-strength. His prosthetics can likely match or even exceed the strength of a normal human, but when faced with an equally powerful jedi that hasn't suffered the physical and emotional damage Vader has suffered he'll likely lose.

Frankly I think Vader's strength in the force and skill after recieving his suit is merely a shadow of what he could have been, and THAT is why he isn't special among his peers. Vader is "damaged goods".

I disagree with a lot of what you just said.

Vader post-Mustafar killed many decent Jedi and even some Jedi Masters. He did draw heavily on the Dark Side, and the majority of his victories were because he was so skilled with the Force; he didn't need to be excellent with a saber. It is all in the novelization Dark Lord. If you haven't read it (I haven't) you can look it up on wikipedia or SW Wiki.

Also, the reason Vader couldn't kill or 'win' a fight with his son was because he was holding back, at least in ANH and ESB. RotJ presented him with a challenge because Luke tapped into the Dark Side to win the fight, and it totally threw Vader off-guard.

[Eframepilot]

According to Lucas, Anakin had the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor, but because of his injuries wound up at only 80% compared to Sidious in the classic trilogy. Still, that 80% is much more than any normal Jedi could ever handle; no Jedi short of Obi-Wan Kenobi should be able to beat him, and Obi-Wan was basically the 4th best in the Order (with the 3 above him being Yoda, Mace Windu and the Chosen One).

Lucas also said that Luke has the same potential as Anakin, so that's why the Emperor and Vader both want and fear him.

[Stuart Mackey]

Frankly I think Vader's strength in the force and skill after recieving his suit is merely a shadow of what he could have been, and THAT is why he isn't special among his peers. Vader is "damaged goods".

Strange that the Emperor does not think this in Dark Lord.

[Stuart Mackey]

According to Lucas, Anakin had the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor, but because of his injuries wound up at only 80% compared to Sidious in the classic trilogy. Still, that 80% is much more than any normal Jedi could ever handle; no Jedi short of Obi-Wan Kenobi should be able to beat him, and Obi-Wan was basically the 4th best in the Order (with the 3 above him being Yoda, Mace Windu and the Chosen One).

Lucas also said that Luke has the same potential as Anakin, so that's why the Emperor and Vader both want and fear him.

Source please.

[Star-Blighter]

I disagree with a lot of what you just said.

Vader post-Mustafar killed many decent Jedi and even some Jedi Masters. He did draw heavily on the Dark Side, and the majority of his victories were because he was so skilled with the Force; he didn't need to be excellent with a saber. It is all in the novelization Dark Lord. If you haven't read it (I haven't) you can look it up on wikipedia or SW Wiki.

Isn't that essentially what I just said?!? How the hell does one say that they disagree with an opinion and then post what is basically a re-worded version of the opinion they disagreed with? I am very confused right now.

[Eframepilot]

According to Lucas, Anakin had the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor, but because of his injuries wound up at only 80% compared to Sidious in the classic trilogy. Still, that 80% is much more than any normal Jedi could ever handle; no Jedi short of Obi-Wan Kenobi should be able to beat him, and Obi-Wan was basically the 4th best in the Order (with the 3 above him being Yoda, Mace Windu and the Chosen One).

Lucas also said that Luke has the same potential as Anakin, so that's why the Emperor and Vader both want and fear him.

Source please.

It's from some interview Lucas gave circa Episode III's release that I've seen quoted a lot. It's also referred to in Wikipedia's Vader entry, so I'm not just making it up.

Although Vader remains a formidable warrior (second only to Palpatine in his dark side potential), the grave injuries he sustains during the duel with Obi-Wan greatly reduce his power with the Force; as Vader, he is a mere shadow of his former Jedi self. Lucas claims that had Vader not been dismembered, he would have been twice as powerful as Palpatine, but that he is only 80% as powerful post-Mustafar.

[Tiriol]

I disagree with a lot of what you just said.

Vader post-Mustafar killed many decent Jedi and even some Jedi Masters. He did draw heavily on the Dark Side, and the majority of his victories were because he was so skilled with the Force; he didn't need to be excellent with a saber. It is all in the novelization Dark Lord. If you haven't read it (I haven't) you can look it up on wikipedia or SW Wiki.

Isn't that essentially what I just said?!? How the hell does one say that they disagree with an opinion and then post what is basically a re-worded version of the opinion they disagreed with? I am very confused right now.

I think that Cos Dashit is trying to say that Vader didn't NEED to use his lightsabre skills, since he could use his Force powers to hammer the opposition; your opinion was more along the lines that Vader HAD to to use his Force powers, since he would otherwise get killed (which, by the way, is false - Vader beat the Dark Woman using only his physical skills until the very end, and in Dark Lord he just hammered down the Jedi who attacked him - the only expection was that Jedi Master whose name I have forgotten, but who got hammered by Vader's trick of throwing everything on sight against his opponents like in ESB).

Why do people think that just because Vader happens to favour Force-based attacks sometimes he is clearly a weak swordsman and/or somehow otherwise weak or cowardly? He gets the job done personally, basically owns every single Jedi from Padawan to Master who comes before him and it took one of the most powerful Jedi ever to finally defeat him and even that required a dark side -given boost. Vader just shows that he has brains - if it's a good idea to use purely the Force to defeat one's opponent, he does so; if it takes a lightsabre duel, so be it. And remember what Lord Sidious said - the Sith use lightsabres only to humiliate the Jedi, they could very easily defeat their opponents purely by the Force. It appears that Vader doesn't have any need to humiliate his opponents sometimes. He just goes for the kill.

[Cykeisme]

I must say... very well said, Tiriol.

I suppose my faith in Yoda blinds me. I seem to have a weak spot for him. When he said he was going into exile in RotS, I was extremely pissed off and started yelling in the theater.

I didn't take into account that Sidious wouldn't have anything to prove anymore and would kill him in an unfair way.

Exactly.

The assassination attempt was a one-shot thing. Even if Yoda had tried to continue the fight, he'd still have to deal with Sidious as an equal, and additionally, Yoda had lost his lightsaber, which means that the shocktroopers pouring into the room would have become a very real threat.
Subsequent to that attempt. Palpatine is constantly guarded by layers upon layers of security in space, in the air and on the ground.. not to mention he also has Darth Vader.

[Cos Dashit]

If Yoda did manage to get through all of Palpatine's guards, without injury, would he be able let's say in ESB to dispatch Vader?

Just a thought.

[Cykeisme]

If Yoda did manage to get through all of Palpatine's guards, without injury, would he be able let's say in ESB to dispatch Vader?

Just a thought.

Interesting question.

I suppose Yoda would first have to construct a new lightsaber. Assuming this wasn't a problem, I guess we run into the question of whether or not Vader has gained enough strength in the Force to equal Yoda by the time of ESB.

I'm not sure! Thoughts, anyone else?

[Eleas]

Why do people think that just because Vader happens to favour Force-based attacks sometimes he is clearly a weak swordsman and/or somehow otherwise weak or cowardly? He gets the job done personally, basically owns every single Jedi from Padawan to Master who comes before him and it took one of the most powerful Jedi ever to finally defeat him and even that required a dark side -given boost. Vader just shows that he has brains - if it's a good idea to use purely the Force to defeat one's opponent, he does so; if it takes a lightsabre duel, so be it. And remember what Lord Sidious said - the Sith use lightsabres only to humiliate the Jedi, they could very easily defeat their opponents purely by the Force. It appears that Vader doesn't have any need to humiliate his opponents sometimes. He just goes for the kill.

The reason for this is that Vader's swordsmanship has clearly suffered a great deal from the loss of his reflexes and speed. But I believe you misconstrued the earlier talk about "outmaneuvering with the Force" to mean the use of crude telekinetic hammering and the like -- I for one did not mean it as such. I rather spoke of the way Sith and Jedi seem to use their precognition and telepathy to interfere with one another, a mental battle in which the most adept Force user would have an edge.

Vader has a huge one, and would have used it against the Jedi we spoke of. Should you take away the Force and leave the contestants with the same speed and fighting technique, those Jedi would likely have slaughtered Vader by the simple fact that they're not, well, slow-moving cripples.

[Cykeisme]

Should you take away the Force and leave the contestants with the same speed and fighting technique, those Jedi would likely have slaughtered Vader by the simple fact that they're not, well, slow-moving cripples.

Dark Lord contradicts this.

While the ANH novelization refers to mental-level Force jockeying in the final duel between Vader and Kenobi, there is no mention of it in Dark Lord. It specifically states that Vader defeats multiple Jedi simultaneously simply through the application of superior swordsmanship (and, well, brute physical strength).

Shryne does manage to stand up against Vader for some time, saber to saber, but is finally destroyed when Vader uses the Force against him.. not by overcoming him mentally, but by hurling debris at him.

[Crazy_Vasey]

If Yoda did manage to get through all of Palpatine's guards, without injury, would he be able let's say in ESB to dispatch Vader?

Just a thought.

How long is there between ESB and ROTJ, the point where Yoda died of old age? Less than a year, as I recall. I simply can't imagine that a man that close to his own death by simple wearing out of his body would be capable of putting up much of a fight against a Sith Lord of Vader's power, even one who is physically damaged himself.

[Cos Dashit]

If Yoda did manage to get through all of Palpatine's guards, without injury, would he be able let's say in ESB to dispatch Vader?

Just a thought.

How long is there between ESB and ROTJ, the point where Yoda died of old age? Less than a year, as I recall. I simply can't imagine that a man that close to his own death by simple wearing out of his body would be capable of putting up much of a fight against a Sith Lord of Vader's power, even one who is physically damaged himself.

I was thinking perhaps if he had known that he was going to fight him again, he would have made a conscious effort to train and stay alive. He probably could have died much later, but he thought his work was basically done.

[Stuart Mackey]

According to Lucas, Anakin had the potential to be twice as powerful as the Emperor, but because of his injuries wound up at only 80% compared to Sidious in the classic trilogy. Still, that 80% is much more than any normal Jedi could ever handle; no Jedi short of Obi-Wan Kenobi should be able to beat him, and Obi-Wan was basically the 4th best in the Order (with the 3 above him being Yoda, Mace Windu and the Chosen One).

Lucas also said that Luke has the same potential as Anakin, so that's why the Emperor and Vader both want and fear him.

Source please.

It's from some interview Lucas gave circa Episode III's release that I've seen quoted a lot. It's also referred to in Wikipedia's Vader entry, so I'm not just making it up.

Although Vader remains a formidable warrior (second only to Palpatine in his dark side potential), the grave injuries he sustains during the duel with Obi-Wan greatly reduce his power with the Force; as Vader, he is a mere shadow of his former Jedi self. Lucas claims that had Vader not been dismembered, he would have been twice as powerful as Palpatine, but that he is only 80% as powerful post-Mustafar.

*Shrugs* Its interesting that the Emperor does not think so in Dark Lord. Certainly Vader has less experiance with the dark side, but the emperor admits that he has to teach Vader that, even at the cost of his own life. It becomes a question of what do we take as canon, Lucas's word in interveiws, or demonstrated capabilities and staements from the books and the movies.

[Eframepilot]

*Shrugs* Its interesting that the Emperor does not think so in Dark Lord. Certainly Vader has less experiance with the dark side, but the emperor admits that he has to teach Vader that, even at the cost of his own life. It becomes a question of what do we take as canon, Lucas's word in interveiws, or demonstrated capabilities and staements from the books and the movies.

Well, Vader definitely did have the potential to exceed both the Emperor and Yoda before his injuries, yet he failed to do so by the time of the classic trilogy. Something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential power, most likely his physical and psychological injuries.

[Ghost Rider]

*Shrugs* Its interesting that the Emperor does not think so in Dark Lord. Certainly Vader has less experiance with the dark side, but the emperor admits that he has to teach Vader that, even at the cost of his own life. It becomes a question of what do we take as canon, Lucas's word in interveiws, or demonstrated capabilities and staements from the books and the movies.

Well, Vader definitely did have the potential to exceed both the Emperor and Yoda before his injuries, yet he failed to do so by the time of the classic trilogy. Something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential power, most likely his physical and psychological injuries.

So you can't give anything but a vague notiuon when the damn answer stares at you? I'll give you a hint of what something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential.

So is Vader the only one progressing in knowledge and powr of the Dark Side?

[Eframepilot]

*Shrugs* Its interesting that the Emperor does not think so in Dark Lord. Certainly Vader has less experiance with the dark side, but the emperor admits that he has to teach Vader that, even at the cost of his own life. It becomes a question of what do we take as canon, Lucas's word in interveiws, or demonstrated capabilities and staements from the books and the movies.

Well, Vader definitely did have the potential to exceed both the Emperor and Yoda before his injuries, yet he failed to do so by the time of the classic trilogy. Something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential power, most likely his physical and psychological injuries.

So you can't give anything but a vague notiuon when the damn answer stares at you? I'll give you a hint of what something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential.

So is Vader the only one progressing in knowledge and powr of the Dark Side?

The idea that the Emperor himself deliberately kept Vader weaker than himself contradicts his "Lord Vader will be stronger than either of us!" line in Episode III; also, Sidious would ultimately have no control over Vader's power, just as Obi-Wan could not have kept Anakin weaker than himself by withholding training.

Lucas was pretty clear on the matter. You can either accept his opinion or reject it, just as many have rejected Lucas's opinion on the prophecy meaning only the destruction of the Sith and not the prior destruction of the Jedi.

[Tiriol]

Well, Vader definitely did have the potential to exceed both the Emperor and Yoda before his injuries, yet he failed to do so by the time of the classic trilogy. Something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential power, most likely his physical and psychological injuries.

So you can't give anything but a vague notiuon when the damn answer stares at you? I'll give you a hint of what something clearly kept Vader from reaching his original potential.

So is Vader the only one progressing in knowledge and powr of the Dark Side?

The idea that the Emperor himself deliberately kept Vader weaker than himself contradicts his "Lord Vader will be stronger than either of us!" line in Episode III; also, Sidious would ultimately have no control over Vader's power, just as Obi-Wan could not have kept Anakin weaker than himself by withholding training.

Lucas was pretty clear on the matter. You can either accept his opinion or reject it, just as many have rejected Lucas's opinion on the prophecy meaning only the destruction of the Sith and not the prior destruction of the Jedi.

No, I think that Ghost Rider is trying to say is that Palpatine also progressed in power and knowledge of the dark side (and I don't merely think so, since he bloody wrote it). Palpatine didn't have to limit Vader's growth in the dark powers, since the old man himself also kept growing in power and accumulating dark knowledge (it is spelled out in New Essential Guide to Characters: Grand Vizier Sate Pestage was practically running the Empire at some point because Palpatine's time was all but consumed by his studies of the dark side).

[Eframepilot]

No, I think that Ghost Rider is trying to say is that Palpatine also progressed in power and knowledge of the dark side (and I don't merely think so, since he bloody wrote it). Palpatine didn't have to limit Vader's growth in the dark powers, since the old man himself also kept growing in power and accumulating dark knowledge (it is spelled out in New Essential Guide to Characters: Grand Vizier Sate Pestage was practically running the Empire at some point because Palpatine's time was all but consumed by his studies of the dark side).

Yeah, I got that, but that is also not in agreement with Lucas as the Chosen One was supposed to be more potentially powerful than the Emperor no matter how skilled in the dark side the Emperor became. It's a matter of EU vs. Lucas.

[Ghost Rider]

No, I think that Ghost Rider is trying to say is that Palpatine also progressed in power and knowledge of the dark side (and I don't merely think so, since he bloody wrote it). Palpatine didn't have to limit Vader's growth in the dark powers, since the old man himself also kept growing in power and accumulating dark knowledge (it is spelled out in New Essential Guide to Characters: Grand Vizier Sate Pestage was practically running the Empire at some point because Palpatine's time was all but consumed by his studies of the dark side).

Yeah, I got that, but that is also not in agreement with Lucas as the Chosen One was supposed to be more potentially powerful than the Emperor no matter how skilled in the dark side the Emperor became. It's a matter of EU vs. Lucas.

I keep forgetting that because it is demonstrated the Emperor became more powerful in the time of RoTS to RoTJ that Lucas can supercede this, thus let us see which parisomny favors moron.

1. Some mysterious thing barred Vader to being more powerful then the Emperor because of potential.

2. Vader still has the potential but is unable to supercede Palpatine because he doesn't have the same level of knowledge or resources that the old geezer has.

Fuck, I wonder which we can chose.