Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Prometheus Unbound]

You are talking about a guy that felt a need to proof how big of an OT fan he is by trying to insert a dead Jar Jar.

This point makes no sense. How is inserting a PT character proof of being too big of an OT fan?

I think it's meant to symbolically "killing" the PT by using Jar jar as an avatar or just thinking all OT fans must want to see Jar Jar killed preferbly as horribly as possible.

I don't think "killing" the PT is meant by it, more perhaps a statement of "hey guys, don't worry, I *get* it. It's not going to be like them.".

And honestly, I'm ok with that. The PT wasn't the worst thing ever, it didn't "rape my childhood" but ... I would be just as happy with the Star Wars universe if they'd never actually happened.

If this is JJs way of turning the page, so be it.

If it's a "fuck you" to Jar Jar, then that actually makes me happy. Maybe that's irrational, I don't know. But I can guarantee I'm not the only one lol. I do think the majority of OT fans would actually find it quite funny that he died.

[ray245]

You are talking about a guy that felt a need to proof how big of an OT fan he is by trying to insert a dead Jar Jar.

Err.. yeah.

Which shows he's in tune with at least 99% of the viewing public. I'm ok with that.

Except he isn't. It's exactly why I have so much problem with fans like you who assume this is the case.

Most of the critics and the public is actually fine with the prequels. No one is saying the prequels are the best movies ever, but the idea that they are all unwatchable films is largely due to all the vocal fans on the Internet complaining about it.

I like the PT, and I don't think they are as bad as people are making it up to be. A lot of us grew up with the prequels, and a lot younger Star Wars fans seems to enjoy the PT as well. Hell, the younger TFA actors and actress admitted that they got interested in Star Wars thanks to the prequels.

I think to some extend it's JJ giving all the younger SW fans who got interested in the franchise thanks to the prequels a giant middle finger that really annoys me.

Ah, so this is the real point then I take it. You're not mad about X wings and storm troopers, you're mad there will be no E wings and Admiral Daala's from the EU. We're OT fanboys because the part of Star Wars you like, the EU, is now dead. So now it appears you're on a crusade to hate on the movie with OT stuff in it because there is no prominent EU stuff. Get over it.

I don't give a shit about the EU. In fact I'm not entirely happy with the direction of the EU with all the X-Wing Mk J/K/F stuff. I don't even know there's an E-Wing in the EU.

I have a problem with OT fans that rejected any form of story telling or visual aesthetic that looks too different from the stuff people seen in the OT.

The whole notion of everything in Star Wars needs to be gritty and messy is a false idea perpetuated by the OT only fans. We keep hearing people complaining about how the PT was bad because everything looks too clean while forgetting the fact that things looks pretty decent in Cloud City.

My problem is JJ seems to be making the exact same mistake that the EU had made. Reusing X-Wings, Imperial remnant, Sith wannabe, superweapon of the day. Those are stuff I do not want to see in Star Wars again.

I don't think "killing" the PT is meant by it, more perhaps a statement of "hey guys, don't worry, I *get* it. It's not going to be like them.".

And honestly, I'm ok with that. The PT wasn't the worst thing ever, it didn't "rape my childhood" but ... I would be just as happy with the Star Wars universe if they'd never actually happened.

If this is JJs way of turning the page, so be it.

If it's a "fuck you" to Jar Jar, then that actually makes me happy. Maybe that's irrational, I don't know. But I can guarantee I'm not the only one lol. I do think the majority of OT fans would actually find it quite funny that he died.

And I am thankful that the PT happened. Without the prequels I won't become a Star Wars fan in the first place. You are basically asking me to fuck off because I'm not a true Star Wars fan. It's fine if it is just some random fans on the internet dissing the PT, but if you are a professional director, I do expect you to have higher standards.

As someone that enjoyed BOTH the PT and the OT, I think letting all the OT-only fans be in charge of Star Wars is a terrible idea for the future of the franchise. If you want to watch the OT, you can ALWAYS rewatch the OT. Don't limit the potential of the ST just because you wish to recreate your childhood, no matter how impossible it might be. I don't mind if the new films are different from the PT either. I just do not want the new movies to be limited by the previous six Star Wars movies.

[Prometheus Unbound]

You are talking about a guy that felt a need to proof how big of an OT fan he is by trying to insert a dead Jar Jar.

Err.. yeah.

Which shows he's in tune with at least 99% of the viewing public. I'm ok with that.

Except he isn't. It's exactly why I have so much problem with fans like you who assume this is the case.

Most of the critics and the public is actually fine with the prequels.

blah blah blah. I specifically was talking about a dead Jar Jar. Not the whole of the PTs. I even defended them (a bit).

You clearly have an agenda here and it's either clouding your judgement or you're purposefully misrepresenting what others are saying.

You're shitting up a thread about it. We get it. We just don't care. Go bother some other forum with your circular whining.

[Soontir C'boath]

Ok just delve into this and just caught up with the super weapon of the day that is MOAR stronger than the DS. Christ, it's like the entire writing industry (or at least in sci-fi and fantasy) just cannot write a good story without the NEXT BIG THING THAT WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AND THE HEROES HAVE TO STOP IT, shit. Christ, if Law and Order was written this way, we'd have suspects who are ever more smarter and lethal by the episode that Detective Benson would have to somehow outwit on top!

[Purple]

All this discussion is stupid because we all know how it will end up. We'll all pay a ticket to see it because its Star Wars. And once we see it once we'll call it a day and newer see it again because no matter how good it is it can't live up to the heavily romanticized memory of the OT (and for some people the PT) that we have in our minds.

[ray245]

blah blah blah. I specifically was talking about a dead Jar Jar. Not the whole of the PTs. I even defended them (a bit).

You clearly have an agenda here and it's either clouding your judgement or you're purposefully misrepresenting what others are saying.

You're shitting up a thread about it. We get it. We just don't care. Go bother some other forum with your circular whining.

Edit:

Really? Considering that you gleefully saying out how the majority of the fans hate the PT when there's no way you can even prove it?

[Esquire]

Look, you've got this bizarre idea that everybody who doesn't already hate the new movie hates everything about the prequels. We don't. We hated Jar Jar, since he was incredibly annoying, and some of the more slapstick moments that didn't seem to fit with the tone of the movies. We thought the Anakin/Padme love story was awful and contrived, because it was in fact awful and contrived. That's about it. The art design was perfectly fine, and helped indicate the more peaceful and elegant nature of the Old Republic. That it had already started to shift into recognizably-Imperial styles as of ROTS was good planning, not laziness.

We don't mind X-Wings in the new trilogy not because we hate everything new and different, but because it makes perfect sense for them to be there. We're dealing with a continuation of the same story, with many of the same organizations and characters as appeared in the original movies. It would be weird if we didn't get nods to the OT in the new movies, and slight modifications of iconic ships is a good way to do that. Plus, and I hate you for making me say this, Purple's right. We're all going to go see this because it's Star Wars, so get off your high horse and have as much fun as you can with it.

[Adam Reynolds]

As an aside, I dispute that X-Wings are obsolete as of ROTJ: there's lots of them flying around at Endor, just like there's lots of standard TIEs. At most, we're seeing new designs using the same technology for a niche purpose; at least, we're seeing designs that simply didn't come up in prior movies. When would TIE Bombers have come up in ANH, for example? Even if they are genuinely new incremental designs, that actually supports having them in the new movie since the situations are essentially the same.

EDIT: So basically what Adam Reynolds said.

Even in the case of Rebel fighters, it wouldn't make sense to fly A-wings or B-wings over Yavin. The B-wing wouldn't have fit into the trench, while the A-wing had no ability to fire proton torpedoes into the exhaust port. Obviously if the Alliance had some at their base they would have sent them anyway, but they wouldn't have done the job as effectively.

Given that Yavin was obviously a long range fighter base, it is also possible that X-wings and Y-wings have better endurance and were thus a better fit for such an installation. The same was probably true for Hoth. Though it was less likely that the Alliance seriously flew missions from Hoth given the desperate straights they were in at the time.

My bad I was actually meaning the Interceptor but anyway, Republic fighters seemed to perform the same roles as later fighters. The V-Wing was the carrier carried spam fighter like the later TIE Fighter and the ARC-170 was a long range heavy attack fighter like the X-Wing was sometimes with the Actis class probably taking the rest of the X-Wings role of long range dog fighter. They were only in service less then 3 years (both were later designs in the old-EU and didn't seem to show up in the Clone Wars series until much later) so you can't really say they had worn out without asking why the TIEs and X-Wings didn't wear out in 30.

I would suggest that the Clone Wars designs were phased out because they were flawed and because of cultural changes in the various militaries. The ARC-170 was problematic because it was so large and yet was used as a frontline fighter. As was shown in ROTS, it easily fell prey to more nimble enemy fighters. The Actis design had the opposite problem. It was so small that it lacked alot of the systems that would be useful in a conventional fighter design. Jedi liked them because they were nimble enough to take advantage of Jedi reflexes. No other pilot would benefit in the same sense. V-wings might be too expensive given that they appeared to carry internal hyperdrives.

Short range TIE fighters were used because the Imperial Navy liked relying on Star Destroyers as their main offensive arm. It also worked as a loyalty system to prevent the MiG pilot defection idea as well. X-wings are just plain better.

They are barely changed designs. The TIE looks identical other then the paintjob and the X-Wing has different S-foils and that seems to be aboot it. That is a good point that they could be differently internally but why where the X-Wings and TIEs given upgrades while other fighters like the Clone Wars era fighters just replaced?

See above. If the Clone Wars designs were actually inferior, there would be no reason to keep using them.

The A and B Wings were probably not superior to the X-Wing because they had different roles (whether those roles are still canon I dunno). The A-Wing was the light interceptor that was probably closest to a TIE Fighter while the B was supposed to be a heavy attack fighter more like the ARC-170. They were also newer (atleast they were) and they along with the X-Wing seemed to almost completely replace the Y-Wing by the time of Endor.

I wonder if the A-wing is actually far cheaper. X-wings were likely in short supply due to their expensive components as a result of being extremely long range.

X-wings are a solid and reliable design that was favored by the best aces of the Rebel Alliance. If the newer Rebel fighters were really better, why wasn't Wedge Antilles flying one?

The First Order had enough money to buy their Stormtroopers new armor, buy their Navy new Star Destroyers, buy Captain Phasma fingers for her gloves and a cape, and buy or build the wannabe Death Star Starkiller Base. It seems strange that they could afford to buy everything new except the TIE Fighters. And they probably only bought all that new shit because the old shit was worn out or destroyed, the TIEs should also need replacing considering they too would experience just as heavy losses.

Things like new body armor are cheap. Star Destroyers are likely fairly hard to steal. TIE fighters on the other hand are dime a dozen and not as regulated as entire Star Destroyers. It would make sense that they would be the thing that is reused the most.

Oh phewy, if anything it is the now defunct EU that keeps influencing peoples ideas about it. In this very thread you can read about 'slow' Y wings and 'old' X wings, all of which are not in the movies and are ONLY things found in the old EU.

If you actually watch ANH and ROTJ, Vader runs down X-wings just as easily as Y-wings and a Y-wing actually runs down a TIE inteceptor. The "new" and supposedly superior Imperial design. It is likely that TIE interceptor pilots learned the same thing as the Imperial Japanese Navy with the Zero. More agile and more fragile fighters tend to be worse over time.

Actually, the lack of consistency with props and back ground things like ships and vessels was one of the weakness for me in the PT. In the OT you always had the Falcon, X Wings, and Star Destroyers. In the PT each movie had new ships. Cool ship porn sure, but no consistency. The fighter ships they used were different in each movie, the cap ships were different. Hell, Padme had a new ship every single movie. Now by RotS, they worked in proto OT ships which worked to transition to the OT. It made a lineage I guess.

I agree that it likely went too far(look at how many entries are in the ICS books for each prequel versus the OT). But it did make a degree of sense that the designs would be in flux, at least those used by the military. They were in a state in which the rigors of full scale war had not been tested in the way that they would have been later.

Things like Padme's ships always changing were indeed odd. Though it could be justified as fitting the culture of Naboo. They were artisans that liked the hand crafted look. Thinking about it again, there is also the fact that each time she gets a new ship, she had lost the old one. In AOTC her old ship presumably was left to the new Queen. Her new one is blown up. Her third ship was left on Geonosis. Her fourth ship from ROTS was a replacement for that one. And it was abandoned on Pollis Massa. Though she obviously died and didn't need a new one.

Now, I guess if you think having links and visual connections to the OT is rehashing and going to make it stagnant, I can't help it. For me, and I would assume most people, just see it as continuing the universe we are interested in seeing. Now what would make it stagnant for me is if the exact themes, scenes, and plot are rehashed (kind of like the EU) over and over in the movies.

Would anyone be happier if they didn't see the Falcon? I for one, love both the Falcon and X-wings. None of the PT designs hold a candle to them. Not just because of nostalgia. The Naboo starfighters were such an odd design that the ICS books had to physically take R2 apart in flight in order for him to fit. The same was true with the Jedi starfighters in AOTC.

X-wings in particular have the awesome fact that you can tell when they are about to kick ass when their wings expand. Just like lightsabers igniting. That moment in the trailer when you see this fact is fantastic.

[ray245]

Look, you've got this bizarre idea that everybody who doesn't already hate the new movie hates everything about the prequels. We don't. We hated Jar Jar, since he was incredibly annoying, and some of the more slapstick moments that didn't seem to fit with the tone of the movies. We thought the Anakin/Padme love story was awful and contrived, because it was in fact awful and contrived. That's about it. The art design was perfectly fine, and helped indicate the more peaceful and elegant nature of the Old Republic. That it had already started to shift into recognizably-Imperial styles as of ROTS was good planning, not laziness.

And I have no problem with that. My beef is with people like Batman who seems to think that the only way for a movie to be a Star Wars movie is to include X-Wings and etc.

We don't mind X-Wings in the new trilogy not because we hate everything new and different, but because it makes perfect sense for them to be there. We're dealing with a continuation of the same story, with many of the same organizations and characters as appeared in the original movies. It would be weird if we didn't get nods to the OT in the new movies, and slight modifications of iconic ships is a good way to do that. Plus, and I hate you for making me say this, Purple's right. We're all going to go see this because it's Star Wars, so get off your high horse and have as much fun as you can with it.

If you want to see the X-wings, go and watch the OT again.



I am saying it is possible to have a sequel that reflects many elements from the OT, WHILE being far more creative than what we get. We don't need new X-Wings that practically looks like the old X-Wing to the general public. We can have new fighters that looks a lot more different than what we got. I think most movie viewers are more accepting of change than the production team under JJ.

And I doubt it is a necessary thing for me to watch the new Star Wars movies in the cinema. If I hear bad reviews, I'll probably rent it or watch it elsewhere for a lower cost. I've given up on the Star Wars EU for years because I dislike the direction they are taking. It is certainly not impossible for anyone to stop being interested in new Star Wars stuff if the management at Lucasfilm failed to do a good job.

I think it is certainly possible for TFA to be worse than the prequels. To me, I think TFA feels very regressive based on what I've seen so far. I simply do not agree the notion that only people who are excited about TFA should be allowed to post their views and anyone that "ruins" their fun should shut up.

Would anyone be happier if they didn't see the Falcon? I for one, love both the Falcon and X-wings. None of the PT designs hold a candle to them. Not just because of nostalgia. The Naboo starfighters were such an odd design that the ICS books had to physically take R2 apart in flight in order for him to fit. The same was true with the Jedi starfighters in AOTC.

X-wings in particular have the awesome fact that you can tell when they are about to kick ass when their wings expand. Just like lightsabers igniting. That moment in the trailer when you see this fact is fantastic.

I like the X-Wings. That doesn't mean I MUST see them again in the ST. I can always watch EP IV-VI if I really want to see more dogfights between X-Wings and TIE. I can also watch them in the Rebels series.

I don't mind the Falcon because it's Han's ship. I do mind having the new rebellion using another variant of the X-Wing. It makes the whole movie feels artificial to me because I am always reminded of the fact that the only reason they are in it is because the director is a massive OT-fan.

My problem with what I am seeing so far is Disney and Abrams seems to be selling TFA on the basis of how much of the OT could they recreate today. They harp endlessly about using physical props ( nevermind that the prequels probably using more physical props than TFA for anyone who actually look at the prequels' production), about how they were using old Star Wars concept art and etc. That isn't something that could resonate with me at all.

I don't want to see a recreation of the OT. I think you could never recreate the experience of the OT, no matter how much you try. Any attempt to do so is basically limiting the potential for more creative interpretation of Star Wars, and expand the scope of the Star Wars universe.

This is an entire galaxy to play with. There will be TONS of different cultures with their own visual aesthetic. Look at how diverse the ships were in ROTJ. We have Mon Cal ships that looks entirely different from Tantive IV. We have planets that looks different from each other. The craft we saw in Cloud City looks radically different from the stuff we saw in Tatootine.

Star Wars always been fun for me visually because it rejected monoculture designs. The prequels were excellent from a visual point of view because it reinforce how vast and diverse the Galaxy truly is. We have Naboo that looks radically different from Coruscant.

I don't need to see X-Wings to enjoy a Star Wars movie. It's just sad that some fans here and Abrams seems to think so.

[Adam Reynolds]

Most of the critics and the public is actually fine with the prequels. No one is saying the prequels are the best movies ever, but the idea that they are all unwatchable films is largely due to all the vocal fans on the Internet complaining about it.

I like the PT, and I don't think they are as bad as people are making it up to be. A lot of us grew up with the prequels, and a lot younger Star Wars fans seems to enjoy the PT as well. Hell, the younger TFA actors and actress admitted that they got interested in Star Wars thanks to the prequels.

I think to some extend it's JJ giving all the younger SW fans who got interested in the franchise thanks to the prequels a giant middle finger that really annoys me.

There is indeed nothing fundamentally wrong with the prequels*. But no one would say that the OT is better. Staying closer to the OT is indeed a reasonable idea.

* I would suggest that the biggest problem with the prequels is that they are prequels. They are fundamentally limited from a storytelling standpoint because they are telling a story that we already know the ending to. It massively weakens drama. There is a reason that the best prequel is often considered to be The Godfather part 2. That is because there was also action occurring in the present.

I have a problem with OT fans that rejected any form of story telling or visual aesthetic that looks too different from the stuff people seen in the OT.

The whole notion of everything in Star Wars needs to be gritty and messy is a false idea perpetuated by the OT only fans. We keep hearing people complaining about how the PT was bad because everything looks too clean while forgetting the fact that things looks pretty decent in Cloud City.

It depends on what you are showing. Military systems should indeed look worn if they are used. And in ROTS, they do. The PT followed a logical progression on this issue with clones going from factory fresh to hardened combat veterans with worn equipment.

My problem is JJ seems to be making the exact same mistake that the EU had made. Reusing X-Wings, Imperial remnant, Sith wannabe, superweapon of the day. Those are stuff I do not want to see in Star Wars again.

We have no idea what the First Order and Sith wannabes really are.

And I am thankful that the PT happened. Without the prequels I won't become a Star Wars fan in the first place. You are basically asking me to fuck off because I'm not a true Star Wars fan. It's fine if it is just some random fans on the internet dissing the PT, but if you are a professional director, I do expect you to have higher standards.

As someone that enjoyed BOTH the PT and the OT, I think letting all the OT-only fans be in charge of Star Wars is a terrible idea for the future of the franchise. If you want to watch the OT, you can ALWAYS rewatch the OT. Don't limit the potential of the ST just because you wish to recreate your childhood, no matter how impossible it might be. I don't mind if the new films are different from the PT either. I just do not want the new movies to be limited by the previous six Star Wars movies.

As someone who grew up with both the prequels and OT, I will say that the OT has aged far better. Things like 9 year old Anakin that I initially connected with(I was 9 when TPM first came out) have aged horribly. I would actually say that that was one of the worst elements of the entire PT. Having such a young character divorced it from the rest of the franchise too much. I realize that it was meant to be a prologue, but having a teenager character would have been a far better decision as it could have accelerated the romance while also allowing Anakin to more reasonably contribute to the final battle.

Ok just delve into this and just caught up with the super weapon of the day that is MOAR stronger than the DS. Christ, it's like the entire writing industry (or at least in sci-fi and fantasy) just cannot write a good story without the NEXT BIG THING THAT WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AND THE HEROES HAVE TO STOP IT, shit. Christ, if Law and Order was written this way, we'd have suspects who are ever more smarter and lethal by the episode that Detective Benson would have to somehow outwit on top!

I agree with you in the general sense. Marvel in particular is seriously guilty of this problem. Starting with Iron Man 2, literally every film has been a threat that is increasingly set to take over the world. Many thrillers also fall into this trap. Look at Tom Clancy novels. After The Sum of All Fears, every novel seems to have America in a full scale shooting war. Or Homeland, in which each season seems to deal with a progressively larger terrorist threat.

In this case, it does make a degree of sense. To start with, there is no indication that it is stronger than the Death Star. The second fundamental issue is that superweapons in Star Wars are not particularly overpowered compared with the level of conventional firepower and numbers. But they are effective at dealing with shielded planets due to the concentration of raw power.

More importantly, I also get the impression that neither Jedi or Sith are particularly powerful in this era. In times when the Force is weaker, reliance on military force seems to increase.

[Prometheus Unbound]

blah blah blah. I specifically was talking about a dead Jar Jar. Not the whole of the PTs. I even defended them (a bit).

You clearly have an agenda here and it's either clouding your judgement or you're purposefully misrepresenting what others are saying.

You're shitting up a thread about it. We get it. We just don't care. Go bother some other forum with your circular whining.

Edit:

Really? Considering that you gleefully saying out how the majority of the fans hate the PT when there's no way you can even prove it?

I said the majority of star wars fans hate Jar Jar. I stand by that.

[Prometheus Unbound]

And what the fuck is your obsession with X wings. Just look at your posts - X wings in every one. X wing X Wing X-Wing... stop with the X-Wings.

An X-Wing? In my Star Wars? It's more likely than you think.

You gonna complain that there's light sabres and Han now?


At least anything in the ST will be a continuation from previous films. In the PT, don't you think it weird how everyone knew everyone else? How Tatooine was suddenly important out of a whole galaxy? That Vader made 3PO? All the co-incidences that span the EU - how apparently there's only about 5 planets and 50 people in the entire galaxy, spanning all of time?

And yet everyone's mostly ok with that.

And you are whining that the sequels to this will have an X-Wing in it? At least they're going with new characters and locations we don't know about, instead of everything and everyone being tied down to having met or had family who met everyone in the OT.



I don't hate the PT. I didn't think they were particularly great when they came out, but I don't lose sleep over them.

I really do hate Jar Jar. but I'm not alone in that. The majority of Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar and the majority of "normal people" who watched those films didn't particularly like the character either.

This isn't unusual behaviour, because the character was retarded and needs to be executed.



I am happy JJ is rumoured to feature his body in the background somewhere. Good.



Also X-Wings are cool.

And I am thankful that the PT happened. Without the prequels I won't become a Star Wars fan in the first place. You are basically asking me to fuck off because I'm not a true Star Wars fan.

No, we're saying we get what you're saying; you've said it about 15 times in this thread. You're opinion is fine. You're welcome to have it. No one is saying you're wrong to have that opinion.

We just don't care. We want X-Wings and Sith and stuff. As long as it's done properly - and so far, there doesn't seem to be the suggestion that it isn't. And silly stuff like Jar Jar dying - well.. most of us hate him. We find it funny and endearing, not that he's shitting all over the PT by doing it.

[ray245]

There is indeed nothing fundamentally wrong with the prequels*. But no one would say that the OT is better. Staying closer to the OT is indeed a reasonable idea.

* I would suggest that the biggest problem with the prequels is that they are prequels. They are fundamentally limited from a storytelling standpoint because they are telling a story that we already know the ending to. It massively weakens drama. There is a reason that the best prequel is often considered to be The Godfather part 2. That is because there was also action occurring in the present.

I don't think staying closer to the OT is a good idea at all. Let the ST stand on its own as opposed to a nostalgic trip down the memory lane for kids born in the 70s and 80s.

It depends on what you are showing. Military systems should indeed look worn if they are used. And in ROTS, they do. The PT followed a logical progression on this issue with clones going from factory fresh to hardened combat veterans with worn equipment.

That's my point. It should depend on the circumstances as opposed to being dogmatic about it.

We have no idea what the First Order and Sith wannabes really are.

We don't have the exact details, but having trailers showing a guy that seems to worship Darth Vader's mask, and an order that bascially looks like an updated Empire IS sending out alarm bells to me.

As someone who grew up with both the prequels and OT, I will say that the OT has aged far better. Things like 9 year old Anakin that I initially connected with(I was 9 when TPM first came out) have aged horribly. I would actually say that that was one of the worst elements of the entire PT. Having such a young character divorced it from the rest of the franchise too much. I realize that it was meant to be a prologue, but having a teenager character would have been a far better decision as it could have accelerated the romance while also allowing Anakin to more reasonably contribute to the final battle.

I don't mind having a kid Anakin. Star Wars main target audience has always been children and I can appreciate it in the same manner I enjoyed my childhood cartoons and shows. Adults don't have to like it but they are never the main audience. I'm not sure if TFA will hold on to the principle, especially given its PG-13 rating and what we got so far in the trailer.

And what the fuck is your obsession with X wings. Just look at your posts - X wings in every one. X wing X Wing X-Wing... stop with the X-Wings.

An X-Wing? In my Star Wars? It's more likely than you think.

You gonna complain that there's light sabres and Han now?

I only raise the issue again and again because people seems to take an issue with me not wanting to see more X-Wings in TFA. Go and watch the OT if you want more X-Wings. I am happy with X-Wings in the OT, I don't need them in the ST. Also, I think lightsabers are more important to Star Wars than X-Wings.

At least anything in the ST will be a continuation from previous films. In the PT, don't you think it weird how everyone knew everyone else? How Tatooine was suddenly important out of a whole galaxy? That Vader made 3PO? All the co-incidences that span the EU - how apparently there's only about 5 planets and 50 people in the entire galaxy, spanning all of time?

And yet everyone's mostly ok with that.

And I don't think those are good decisions?

And you are whining that the sequels to this will have an X-Wing in it? At least they're going with new characters and locations we don't know about, instead of everything and everyone being tied down to having met or had family who met everyone in the OT.

Have you forgotten the meaning of a prequel?

I don't hate the PT. I didn't think they were particularly great when they came out, but I don't lose sleep over them.

I really do hate Jar Jar. but I'm not alone in that. The majority of Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar and the majority of "normal people" who watched those films didn't particularly like the character either.

This isn't unusual behaviour, because the character was retarded and needs to be executed.

And I don't hate Jar Jar. I found him funny as a kid and that to me is good enough. Being upset about Jar Jar is a far more childish behaviour in my opinion, and certainly not something I wish to see from a professional filmmaker. I have higher expectation from someone who is a professional.

I am happy JJ is rumoured to feature his body in the background somewhere. Good.

That does not fill me with confidence if the director have such a personal vendetta over a character in the prequels.

Also X-Wings are cool.

I think so too. That doesn't mean I want them in the ST.

No, we're saying we get what you're saying; you've said it about 15 times in this thread. You're opinion is fine. You're welcome to have it. No one is saying you're wrong to have that opinion.

Most certainly not everyone in this thread. We have comments stating how they wished the prequels were never made, and how everything will be if they stick to the OT. If that's not an indirect slight against people who enjoyed the PT, I'm not sure what is.

We just don't care. We want X-Wings and Sith and stuff. As long as it's done properly - and so far, there doesn't seem to be the suggestion that it isn't. And silly stuff like Jar Jar dying - well.. most of us hate him. We find it funny and endearing, not that he's shitting all over the PT by doing it.

And I don't want X-Wings and Sith in the ST. We had 3 movies worth of X-Wings. We had 6 movies worth of Sith. We have endless number of books and comics about X-Wings, TIE and the Sith. I think the ST offers a chance to get away from all those stuff we have seen for years.

The anthology films can offer fans more X-Wings if they want to watch it. They just do not need to show it in TFA.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I'm bored of you now.

[ray245]

I have no problem with that, although it makes less sense to have PT designs in the new trilogy but no OT designs. We're looking at 50-60 year old designs as opposed to 30 years.

Except ROTS took place 20 years before ANH, and all the fighters look more different from what we see in ANH than TFA.

If we made a war flick set in the modern day, you're not going to see WWII fighters in it, nor WWII submarines. You might see planes or ships that were in service in the 80's though.

I never said I need to see prequel era designs. I just need to see designs that look different from the OT in TFA.

Actually, the lack of consistency with props and back ground things like ships and vessels was one of the weakness for me in the PT. In the OT you always had the Falcon, X Wings, and Star Destroyers. In the PT each movie had new ships. Cool ship porn sure, but no consistency. The fighter ships they used were different in each movie, the cap ships were different. Hell, Padme had a new ship every single movie. Now by RotS, they worked in proto OT ships which worked to transition to the OT. It made a lineage I guess.

The prequel had a much bigger scope in terms of the cultures depicted on screen. We visited more planets in the prequels than the OT, and it is unlikely if all the planets share the same sense of visual design.

Now, I guess if you think having links and visual connections to the OT is rehashing and going to make it stagnant, I can't help it. For me, and I would assume most people, just see it as continuing the universe we are interested in seeing. Now what would make it stagnant for me is if the exact themes, scenes, and plot are rehashed (kind of like the EU) over and over in the movies.

That to me was the main reason why the EU was doomed in the end. The writers and artists shared the exact same notion, and they ultimate ended up creating a universe that was stagnant in terms of visuals and technology.

LOL, you haven't shut up about since they announced Abrams as the director.

So far all the fears I had since Abrams was announced had come true.

I'm sure most people will differ to some degree on what makes the Star Wars universe Starwarie, but I'm also pretty sure the world building and background of Good guys with lightsabers fighting big evil Empire with armored shocktroopers and black dark knights with red lightsabers along with large fleets of space ships and little fighters ala WWII in space would cover a lot of fans. And considering the popularity and notoriety of the franchise, when I say fan, I'm pretty much saying most people in most first world countries and a healthy chunk elsewhere, not just some small group of basement dwelling nerds.

And plenty of people managed to enjoy the prequels even though they don't have any X-Wings in it. I think there's a much bigger degree of change that people are willingly to accept than what some fans are saying.

I don't know how you can say that without seeing or knowing more about the movie first, like I said, you seem to be actively hoping the movie will suck so it will confirm your opinion.

I was predicting early on that Ep 7 is likely to be a rehash. Everything I've seen so far seems to support that notion. Perhaps if we didn't see new stormtroopers, we didn't see a new Death Star and TIE, I would have a much different outlook towards TFA>

Tell me, has there been much indication that TFA isn't trying to be a rehash of the OT?

[Prometheus Unbound]

Tell me, has there been much indication that TFA isn't trying to be a rehash of the OT?

This is one of those logical fallacy things. I'm not sure which one, but it's now the onus on everyone else to "prove" to him something we can't because none of us, or you, have seen the fucking movie.

It's a really shitty attempt at a deflection because he wants now the "default" position to be his, and it's up to us to prove otherwise. Even though he's in a room with 20 other people and he's one of maybe 2 people with the claim that differs.


MATE. None of us have seen it. You haven't. You've seen some trailers. Of course the trailers are harking back to the OT. It's because it's recognisable; to generate interest.

Trailers can be very different from the movies. Look at TPM. That was an awesome trailer. Look what we got; not what we expected.

EDIT: removed some swearing on my part.

[Knife]

And I don't want X-Wings and Sith in the ST. We had 3 movies worth of X-Wings. We had 6 movies worth of Sith. We have endless number of books and comics about X-Wings, TIE and the Sith. I think the ST offers a chance to get away from all those stuff we have seen for years.

The anthology films can offer fans more X-Wings if they want to watch it. They just do not need to show it in TFA.

We are getting away from that stuff, it's why they decannonized the EU. All that shit is gone, all the stuff you thought you knew about Sith is gone, all the stuff you thought you knew about SW tech is gone. The endless books, comics, and other material does not matter anymore. It is a clean slate for Abrams and others to put a new face on familiar things.

We are so awash in 30 years of EU that it is given notion, even after being told that it isn't, that X wings are old in the OT, Luke and Han would have kids post RotJ, the New Republic took over the galaxy after Palpatine's fall, crystals in Lightsabers, all of it. It's gone. You see an X wing and 30 years of back story pops into your head, but all that is not true anymore. You should see something that looks like an X wing but has new meaning. At the moment there is no Sith Force Storms, no lost fleets of dreadnaughts, no Chiss, no clone Jedi, no surviving Jedi besides Luke, no World Devastators, no super uber mighty deathstar/destroyer hybrids. It's all gone. You have the PT, OT, and the two cartoons. Everything is an open book right now.

I want consistency, so an X wing 'like' ship is ok with me because it tracks with what I expect from a SW universe. If they started the new movie with ships that looked like Star Trek, it would be very weird and would throw a lot of people out of the story. I'm sure plenty of new designs will be in the movie as well as nu-X wings and the Falcon. Chill dude.

[Knife]

I have no problem with that, although it makes less sense to have PT designs in the new trilogy but no OT designs. We're looking at 50-60 year old designs as opposed to 30 years.

Except ROTS took place 20 years before ANH, and all the fighters look more different from what we see in ANH than TFA.

No they don't, the ARC was very much supposed to invoke the X wing. The V wing very much supposed to invoke the A wing. What ever designation they want to put on the Falcon (YT or whatever since all that is EU) was seen in the PT. The Venator and the Acclamator were very suggestive of the ISD. And while I don't particularly like the Actis, it was very suggestive of an early TIE, though not as much as the others mentioned above. There was definitely a design lineage going on there for the Republic.

The different looking ones came from aliens and other organizations not seen in the OT so it's not surprising, although Greivious' ship in ROTS looks similar in design to the Mom Calamari ships in ROTJ.

I never said I need to see prequel era designs. I just need to see designs that look different from the OT in TFA.

Who says you wont? All we've seen is trailers, in which people put in the juicy tantalizing stuff to get you to see the movie. Is it that weird to toss in the Falcon and X wings as things people readily identify with and know?

The prequel had a much bigger scope in terms of the cultures depicted on screen. We visited more planets in the prequels than the OT, and it is unlikely if all the planets share the same sense of visual design.

Agreed. And I understand the theme of it, my complaint was there was little consistency throughout the PT in that regard, nothing that was static. Not that it all had to be static.

That to me was the main reason why the EU was doomed in the end. The writers and artists shared the exact same notion, and they ultimate ended up creating a universe that was stagnant in terms of visuals and technology.

Agreed, I'm no fan of the EU.

So far all the fears I had since Abrams was announced had come true.

If you say so, most of your complaints are still conjecture.

And plenty of people managed to enjoy the prequels even though they don't have any X-Wings in it. I think there's a much bigger degree of change that people are willingly to accept than what some fans are saying.

I actually like the PT, that said there were clearly some X wing like stuff tossed into it, albeit in the end, and other SW stuff tossed into it. For instance, there was no real reason for the Jedi to wear robes like they did except that Ben Kenobi wore something akin to it in ANH.

I was predicting early on that Ep 7 is likely to be a rehash. Everything I've seen so far seems to support that notion. Perhaps if we didn't see new stormtroopers, we didn't see a new Death Star and TIE, I would have a much different outlook towards TFA>

Again, I don't see how you can say that since we have very very little to go on. Like a couple minutes of footage put into two trailers worth of info.

Tell me, has there been much indication that TFA isn't trying to be a rehash of the OT?

We don't know that either, see above.

[ray245]

It's a really shitty attempt at a deflection because he wants now the "default" position to be his, and it's up to us to prove otherwise. Even though he's in a room with 20 other people and he's one of maybe 2 people with the claim that differs.

I have provided reasons why I think it is likely that it might be a rehash. Everything we see in the promotional material so far has been about the OT stuff, or things that looks like the OT. We have yet to see any major marketing effort indicating there's tons of things that look radically different from the OT.

I have proven my side of the coin. You haven't done so yet, other than simply stating that I don't know the full picture.

MATE. None of us have seen it. You haven't. You've seen some trailers. Of course the trailers are harking back to the OT. It's because it's recognisable; to generate interest.

Trailers can be very different from the movies. Look at TPM. That was an awesome trailer. Look what we got; not what we expected.

EDIT: removed some swearing on my part.

The thing has never been about whether I know the full picture, but whether we can make some assumptions based on what we have seen so far. The new Death Star is FURTHER sign that it feels like a rehash.

I could be wrong, but there zero proof so far that I am wrong about my fears.

We are getting away from that stuff, it's why they decannonized the EU. All that shit is gone, all the stuff you thought you knew about Sith is gone, all the stuff you thought you knew about SW tech is gone. The endless books, comics, and other material does not matter anymore. It is a clean slate for Abrams and others to put a new face on familiar things.

We are so awash in 30 years of EU that it is given notion, even after being told that it isn't, that X wings are old in the OT, Luke and Han would have kids post RotJ, the New Republic took over the galaxy after Palpatine's fall, crystals in Lightsabers, all of it. It's gone. You see an X wing and 30 years of back story pops into your head, but all that is not true anymore. You should see something that looks like an X wing but has new meaning. At the moment there is no Sith Force Storms, no lost fleets of dreadnaughts, no Chiss, no clone Jedi, no surviving Jedi besides Luke, no World Devastators, no super uber mighty deathstar/destroyer hybrids. It's all gone. You have the PT, OT, and the two cartoons. Everything is an open book right now.

I want consistency, so an X wing 'like' ship is ok with me because it tracks with what I expect from a SW universe. If they started the new movie with ships that looked like Star Trek, it would be very weird and would throw a lot of people out of the story. I'm sure plenty of new designs will be in the movie as well as nu-X wings and the Falcon. Chill dude.

Except the PT has shown it is possible to have very different kinds of ships while retaining the "star Wars" look if there ever was one. The Jedi Starfighter, the Naboo fighters all felt part of the Star Wars universe to me. I never accepted the notion that one fighter design defines Star Wars. That's only one part of the Star Wars universe. It's how the look of cars in the 50s or even the 70s do not define the look of all cars throughout history.

No they don't, the ARC was very much supposed to invoke the X wing. The V wing very much supposed to invoke the A wing. What ever designation they want to put on the Falcon (YT or whatever since all that is EU) was seen in the PT. The Venator and the Acclamator were very suggestive of the ISD. And while I don't particularly like the Actis, it was very suggestive of an early TIE, though not as much as the others mentioned above. There was definitely a design lineage going on there for the Republic.

The different looking ones came from aliens and other organizations not seen in the OT so it's not surprising, although Greivious' ship in ROTS looks similar in design to the Mom Calamari ships in ROTJ.

That's my bloody point all along. You can be far more creative with design that what I've seen under JJ. You could have a new fighter that feels evolved from the X-Wings and the same can be said about the TIE.

Who says you wont? All we've seen is trailers, in which people put in the juicy tantalizing stuff to get you to see the movie. Is it that weird to toss in the Falcon and X wings as things people readily identify with and know?

Except we actually saw TONS of stuff in the prequels that doesn't look like the old stuff. There's been zero indication that they have yet to released tons of designs that looks radcially different from what we got so far. No toys, no posters, nothing.

Agreed. And I understand the theme of it, my complaint was there was little consistency throughout the PT in that regard, nothing that was static. Not that it all had to be static.

I feel all we got so far in TFA is indication that they might have gone too far in the opposite end by making things too static.

If you say so, most of your complaints are still conjecture.

I've never denied it. Most of people's excitement about TFA is ALSO based on conjecture. It's unfair to allow people to be excited while denying others the right to be angry with what we got so far.

I actually like the PT, that said there were clearly some X wing like stuff tossed into it, albeit in the end, and other SW stuff tossed into it. For instance, there was no real reason for the Jedi to wear robes like they did except that Ben Kenobi wore something akin to it in ANH.

I would have preferred the PT to look even more different based on some of the unused concept art we had. Lucas seems to be happy with making things look even more different and ended up backing down due to people's complaint.

Again, I don't see how you can say that since we have very very little to go on. Like a couple minutes of footage put into two trailers worth of info.

I won't be so upset if I actually saw some new designs in the trailers and didn't see a Death Star mk 3 in the poster. Everyone has been assuring me that things will be different but no one has been able to show me in what way are things actually different. You can't even show me new fighters that look different from the OT.

We don't know that either, see above.

Look at things from my perspective. I've said that I fear things might feel like a rehash before we've seen any promotional materials. Then months later we saw promotional materials with an X-Wing, followed by more stormtroopers, followed by more TIE fighters. And we even have a new superweapon in the poster.

Every promotional material had played a role in further reinforcing my view. There has been VERY little promotional materials that challenged my fears. You guys have been saying the same thing for the past few years, and every single time the promotional materials suggest that you guys are wrong.

You can't deny the fact that JJ Abrams is reusing old X-Wings design, old TIE fighter design and etc. Now you can't even deny the existence of a new superweapon under the control of the New Empire.

Are you seriously going to say those AREN'T going to be prominent elements in the new Star Wars movie? Are you saying that it is highly likely that the X-Wing ISN'T the main fighter used by the new Rebellion? Are you saying that the new Empire ISN'T using new TIE as their main fighter?

I would love to believe you guys in saying that I am wrong. Hell, I would love to be proven wrong because that means I could have a Star Wars movie that I could enjoy. I want to be proven wrong.

It's just that there is not enough information out there to disprove my fears.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Please excuse the language but stop being so f**king autistic over a couple of trailers. Seriously.


** apologies for the use of that term, I couldn't think of any other.

[Galvatron]

Why do you dread an updated X-wing?

Because it makes the Star Wars universe visually stagnant? I hate the updated X-Wing even in the EU as a kid. The EU has became so trapped in the visual aesthetic of the OT that inevitably created the whole notion that the GFFA was technologically stagnant.

And I wish they'd gone that direction.

One of things I'm not fond of in these movies is the rapid evolution of the technological aesthetics. This isn't Star Trek. Star Wars takes place in a society that has had more or less the same level of technology for 25,000 years. And who knows how long this advanced technology existed before the entire galaxy was organized into the Old Republic.

I think Star Wars is more akin to Macross, in which the Zentradi used the same warships and mecha for half-a-million years. We should see droids, ships, blasters, etc. that have been in service for millennia and remained functional during all that time due to their advanced durability and regular maintenance.

[Crazedwraith]

Take out the EU and how is any of that true?

eyta: Closest you get is 'a thousand generations the jedi were guardians of truth and justice in the old republic' which a) is pretty hyperbolic and b) doesn't have to imply the republic was galaxy spanning with the exact same tech base as seen in the movies.

[The Romulan Republic]

Please excuse the language but stop being so f**king autistic over a couple of trailers. Seriously.


** apologies for the use of that term, I couldn't think of any other.

I advise against using autistic as an insult. You are discriminating against a large group of people which, as I recall, includes members of this board.

Frankly, its just short of using a racial slur at best, in my opinion.

Also, if that is the only term you can think of, your grasp of the English language is tragically poor.

[Galvatron]

Take out the EU and how is any of that true?

I didn't base any of what I said on the EU. 25,000 years has long been a fanon estimate based on "over a thousand generations" in ANH.

The rest is logic. How else could the Old Republic be formed if the level of technology was significantly less advanced than it was shown to be in the OT?

[Crazedwraith]

Take out the EU and how is any of that true?

I didn't base any of what I said on the EU. 25,000 years has long been a fanon estimate based on "over a thousand generations" in ANH.

The rest is logic. How else could the Old Republic take formation if the level of technology was significantly less advanced than it was shown to be in the OT?

Why assume the Republic had to be galaxy spanning and have the same tech base across its entire existence? Why assume Kenobi is speaking the literal truth about a time span measured in something as fuzzy as generations?