Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Purple]

Except, I do not think anyone is arguing in that manner about telling different colliding stories in the same period. It's like saying we can only write about the European theater of the war and we HAVE to leave out the Pacific because it doesn't jive at the same time which is clearly nonsense.

More than one important event CAN happen at the same time across the world or the universe for that matter and it's not the end of the world if the likes of Han Solo, Leia, etc aren't there when there can be other heroes.

I think you have not been following the conversation you are jumping into. I was explicitly replying to a guy saying that he was angry because writers keep repeating the same old themes even when stuff is set in the far future or past of the OT. As in, why stuff ike KOTOR looks and feels exactly like the OT, droids blasters and all.

[ray245]

Except that you do want things to be different, just not. The reason to place stories outside of the main timeline is in order to allow the writer creative freedom without forcing him to constantly keep track of the cannon.

Then make your story set in some sort of alternate universe. It's not the first time we have a alternate universe Star Wars story. If you aren't prepared to understand the past or the future in its own context, then don't try and write a story set in the past or future.

And yet he does not abandon the themes that make the setting unique.

You can still use the same themes we see in Star Wars in different setting and different context. I could easily tell a story that shares many of themes in Star Wars set on Earth! Have you forgotten what was the main inspiration of Star Wars? Samurai movies and etc?

Of course there is. Every time you write a story that happens close to already established events you have to struggle to somehow fit it in without counteracting those events, making them cheap or in other way diminishing the existing content. For example a plot like that of KOTOR just could not possibly happen in the same rough timeline as the SW movies.

Then write a alternate universe story that doesn't have to agree with canon. Why must you set it in the past if you aren't prepared to show how different the past was from the present?

You don't get it at all. What I am saying is that if you want to write a story about a war between england and France you can't have it both in the 1940's and in the same setting as WW2.

Then do what people have done in real life and write an alternate timeline story. You don't go about writing a war between England and France with 1940s technology set in the 17th century!

So if you really want a story about a WW2 era war between the two you must relocate it either in time (thus loosing the story you wanted to have) or to a different setting (thus again loosing the story you wanted to have) or just pretend that for some reason the 1940's have been going on for 1000 years and that this war just fits into the narrative because it does. The 3rd option is what a lot of the EU writers have done.

See above. It's ridiculous to relocate events in time just because you can't think of a good solution to a problem. You ended up creating a even bigger problem that resulted in a SW universe that feels stagnant.

I think you have not been following the conversation you are jumping into. I was explicitly replying to a guy saying that he was angry because writers keep repeating the same old themes even when stuff is set in the far future or past of the OT. As in, why stuff ike KOTOR looks and feels exactly like the OT, droids blasters and all.

It's not even reusing the same old themes. It's reusing the same old art design. It's like writing a story set in medieval era while having everyone running around with laptops ( possibly slower laptops) and flying around in planes!

[Purple]

I'll just boil your post down to the one thing that it's all about.

See above. It's ridiculous to relocate events in time just because you can't think of a good solution to a problem. You ended up creating a even bigger problem that resulted in a SW universe that feels stagnant.

You see this as a problem. I don't. You see it as something bad that has resulted from lazy writers or what ever. I see it as a way to have loads of SW stories that look and feel like proper Star Wars without all the fuss of having to tie them in with the rest of the EU.

Bottom line is that for reasons of your own personal taste you see a "stagnant" SW universe as a bad thing. Where as I actually prefer it that way.

[Adam Reynolds]

To me that indicates that the Sith at one point ruled the galaxy

He outright says it. "Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy!"

They have definitely, at some stage, ruled either the whole thing or a large part of it.

As a result of the old EU, many still argued with that for the longest time.

Except, I do not think anyone is arguing in that manner about telling different colliding stories in the same period. It's like saying we can only write about the European theater of the war and we HAVE to leave out the Pacific because it doesn't jive at the same time which is clearly nonsense.

More than one important event CAN happen at the same time across the world or the universe for that matter and it's not the end of the world if the likes of Han Solo, Leia, etc aren't there when there can be other heroes.

The problem with this is that your new characters have to explicitly be weaker and less important than the existing ones in a setting like Star Wars. Otherwise you end up with stories like IG-88's Death Star.

If you want to write about epic events, then you must use a different time period. Doing otherwise would be like writing a WW2 story that involves the politics of Argentina having an impact on the Battle of Kursk. It just isn't plausible.

Then make your story set in some sort of alternate universe. It's not the first time we have a alternate universe Star Wars story. If you aren't prepared to understand the past or the future in its own context, then don't try and write a story set in the past or future.

How is this in any way better than largely stagnant technology? Alternative universes are a science fiction idea better left to Star Trek than Star Wars.

For all of the fancy technology and mythic themes, part of what makes Star Wars feel real is that it doesn't have elements from a lot of science fiction like time travel or alternative timelines. The timeline we see is the only one there is. I know there had been the infinites stories, but those are so small as to be irrelevant.

It's not even reusing the same old themes. It's reusing the same old art design. It's like writing a story set in medieval era while having everyone running around with laptops ( possibly slower laptops) and flying around in planes!

Just because things mostly look the same on the surface doesn't mean they are. I would suggest that the KOTOR era is more like WW2 versus the present. While they still fly aircraft and use similar looking weapons, the technology inside is extremely different. It is also far more powerful in the more modern era.

When you had Star Wars authors try and come up with a different era they ended up completely ripping off Lord of the Rings for their image. It was literally a shot from the LOTR trilogy with lightsabers inserted into it, which simultaneously had metal spears and lightsabers. They also had the absurdity of vessels that looked like sailing ships in space. Treasure Planet was amusing, but it was clearly not something that would work in Star Wars.

[ray245]

How is this in any way better than largely stagnant technology? Alternative universes are a science fiction idea better left to Star Trek than Star Wars.

They are already doing this. The Legends is now considered a completely different timeline that in theory could continue to offer a big playground for many SW authors. Similarily, we have plenty of elseworld stories like "What if Vader survive the Battle of Endor".

Unlike Star Trek, those stories is unlikely to have any connection to the current universe deemed canon by Disney. You can continue to publish non-canon stories for writers hoping to explore the SW galaxy in different ways.

For all of the fancy technology and mythic themes, part of what makes Star Wars feel real is that it doesn't have elements from a lot of science fiction like time travel or alternative timelines. The timeline we see is the only one there is. I know there had been the infinites stories, but those are so small as to be irrelevant.

Then writers should be allowed to expand on the infinitives as opposed to turning the main canon timeline into a convoluted mess. You want a story of the Galaxy with a full blown war between the Jedi Order and the Sith with using the technology seen in the OT? Well, write it as a Star Wars infinite story.

Just because things mostly look the same on the surface doesn't mean they are. I would suggest that the KOTOR era is more like WW2 versus the present. While they still fly aircraft and use similar looking weapons, the technology inside is extremely different. It is also far more powerful in the more modern era.

Or they could simply not make the story canonical in any form.

When you had Star Wars authors try and come up with a different era they ended up completely ripping off Lord of the Rings for their image. It was literally a shot from the LOTR trilogy with lightsabers inserted into it, which simultaneously had metal spears and lightsabers. They also had the absurdity of vessels that looked like sailing ships in space. Treasure Planet was amusing, but it was clearly not something that would work in Star Wars.

I detest most of the EU because most writers simply could not have the imagination to expand the canvas of Star Wars.

You see this as a problem. I don't. You see it as something bad that has resulted from lazy writers or what ever. I see it as a way to have loads of SW stories that look and feel like proper Star Wars without all the fuss of having to tie them in with the rest of the EU.

Bottom line is that for reasons of your own personal taste you see a "stagnant" SW universe as a bad thing. Where as I actually prefer it that way.

Except I will argue that this line of thinking or preference is ultimately damaging in the long run. By the time the writers embarked on the NJO project, they have realised that they were allowing the universe to be so stagnant that people are getting bored of the Star Wars EU.

Look at the status of the EU before Disney de-canonised them. How many fans on this board even give a crap about all the EU books by that stage? I am saying that your personal taste would turn the franchise into something creatively stale and something that only hardcore fans can get into. In other words, this is leading SW into a direction that mirrors the Star Trek franchise. It ended up with a lot less fans around, a lot less TV shows and a lot less movies thanks to the fans being dogmatic about what Star Trek is all about.

[Soontir C'boath]

If you want to write about epic events, then you must use a different time period. Doing otherwise would be like writing a WW2 story that involves the politics of Argentina having an impact on the Battle of Kursk. It just isn't plausible.

Except that's not necessarily how it has to go. It's as idiotic as saying the Battle of Midway wouldn't be as important as the Battle of the Bulge because the 101st Airborne wasn't in the former.

What you are basically doing is elevating the "main characters" to the level of godhood making them the only ones the right to commit something awesome in an ENTIRE fucking galaxy full of trillions and trillions of lifeforms which is not necessary. If that's not being hardcore minimalist, I don't know what is.

[Purple]

Except I will argue that this line of thinking or preference is ultimately damaging in the long run. By the time the writers embarked on the NJO project, they have realised that they were allowing the universe to be so stagnant that people are getting bored of the Star Wars EU.

Their error was even trying to link things up. If you ask me more writers should have done what KOTOR did. Make a story that's distinctly Star Wars, droids, blasters, light sabers and all and that invokes the same themes as the OT (galactic war, evil sith empire threat, save the galaxy, superweapon starbase) but place it in a different time so that they don't have to wade the shit called continuity.

Look at the status of the EU before Disney de-canonised them. How many fans on this board even give a crap about all the EU books by that stage? I am saying that your personal taste would turn the franchise into something creatively stale and something that only hardcore fans can get into. In other words, this is leading SW into a direction that mirrors the Star Trek franchise. It ended up with a lot less fans around, a lot less TV shows and a lot less movies thanks to the fans being dogmatic about what Star Trek is all about.

No, what I am advocating is a universe where you can just plug in at any time you want without giving a dam about continuity. Every story is standalone and distinctly recognizable as being part of that universe. But they do not link up at all. In other words an EU with no cannon at all. The only people who would feel slighted by this are hardcore fans who feel the need to obsessively connect all the dots for some reason.

[Crazedwraith]

In other words an EU with no cannon at all. The only people who would feel slighted by this are hardcore fans who feel the need to obsessively connect all the dots for some reason.

If they have no cannon they wouldn't be able to shoot at each other. Things would sadly get very boring if that was the case.

[ray245]

Except I will argue that this line of thinking or preference is ultimately damaging in the long run. By the time the writers embarked on the NJO project, they have realised that they were allowing the universe to be so stagnant that people are getting bored of the Star Wars EU.

Their error was even trying to link things up. If you ask me more writers should have done what KOTOR did. Make a story that's distinctly Star Wars, droids, blasters, light sabers and all and that invokes the same themes as the OT (galactic war, evil sith empire threat, save the galaxy, superweapon starbase) but place it in a different time so that they don't have to wade the shit called continuity.

If you don't need to care about continuity, why bother setting it in a different time period? Just indicate the setting of the story is a long time ago in a Galaxy, far, far away. You don't even have to care about how many years is this set before the Battle of Yavin or after the Battle of Endor.

The biggest brainbug of the EU is trying to connect every single sentence said in the movies together, when it's quite clear that the characters themselves aren't being very precise in remembering events.

The idea of a thousand generation is basically an off-hand remark indicating that the Jedi has been around for a very long time. It does not mean a thousand generation literally. Same can be said about the Republic standing for a thousand years. Or the notion that a million man army literally means a million troops. Lucas and most of his writers has always been very casual about numbers, and any big number simply means a long time ago or a really big army/navy. Hell, if someone ask Lucas how many troops fought in the second world war, he will probably give you a number that is way off the mark. That doesn't mean Lucas is right just because he said it.

[Purple]

If you don't need to care about continuity, why bother setting it in a different time period? Just indicate the setting of the story is a long time ago in a Galaxy, far, far away. You don't even have to care about how many years is this set before the Battle of Yavin or after the Battle of Endor.

That's the idea. By setting it in a different period you create enough free room for your self so that you don't have to think about continuity. There is no need to think about how the republic got from where it was in KOTOR to the OT. The answer is simply that there was plenty enough time for things to happen in between. And I think more EU writers should have done this instead of being fixated on trying to fill the immediate aftermath of the OT.

A side effect of this, and one I got the impression you hate with a passion is that if you want to do that and still have your story be recognizable as star wars you are de facto establishing that technology has not changed much in many millennia. The lightsabers of KOTOR are no different to those of the OT. And everyone still uses droids, shoots blasters etc.

[Galvatron]

Just because things mostly look the same on the surface doesn't mean they are. I would suggest that the KOTOR era is more like WW2 versus the present. While they still fly aircraft and use similar looking weapons, the technology inside is extremely different. It is also far more powerful in the more modern era.

I'd like to hear more about this supposed difference in technology and power. I mean, the goddamn Ebon Hawk is essentially a brown Millennium Falcon. When I played KOTOR and KOTOR2, I didn't perceive this underlying difference that you're claiming. And, to be honest, that made me happy.

[Adam Reynolds]

Just because things mostly look the same on the surface doesn't mean they are. I would suggest that the KOTOR era is more like WW2 versus the present. While they still fly aircraft and use similar looking weapons, the technology inside is extremely different. It is also far more powerful in the more modern era.

I'd like to hear more about this supposed difference in technology and power. I mean, the goddamn Ebon Hawk is essentially a brown Millennium Falcon. When I played KOTOR and KOTOR2, I didn't perceive this underlying difference that you're claiming. And, to be honest, that made me happy.

I am mostly referring to the firepower present in different eras. In the KOTOR era, personal shields are fairly popular and lightsabers don't completely overpower swords. By the time of the movies only droidikas have shields and it was mentioned that this was because organics would be negatively affected by the radiation as a result of the high power demands.

Things like planetary shields also are never mentioned at all in the KOTOR and Darth Bane eras. Whereas they are fairly common by the time of the films(hence the need for the Death Star).

Droids are the major element that seem almost completely unchanged between eras. HK-47 seems just as advanced as R2 and 3P0. Hyperdrive also mostly seems unchanged as well but we really have no way to judge speed between eras.

[Galvatron]

The swords during the KOTOR era were made with cortosis (which has been recanonized in the new EU) and were thus impervious to lightsabers.

I don't know about planetary shields, but I do know that Taris was already occupied by Sith forces when Darth Malak ordered its destruction by orbital bombardment.

[Batman]

Um-if we're using games, personal shields where prevalent in the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series too, which was set during/shortly after the OT, so I don't think that's saying much.

[Galvatron]

Good point. Game mechanics should be taken into account for KOTOR just like they would for any OT-era Star Wars game. After all, I'm pretty sure Dash Rendar had hit points in the Shadows of the Empire game as well. No shield, just "health."

[Adam Reynolds]

Shields in KOTOR weren't just game mechanics. It was mentioned in dialog as being a major recent technology that had led to increased use of melee weapons.

You are right about the swords being effective against lightsabers based on cotorsis, but I was talking about the relative offensive power of each.

[Galvatron]

So they eventually discovered that personal shields, what, caused cancer?

[Mr Bean]

So they eventually discovered that personal shields, what, caused cancer?

According to the EU they discovered a method at which you can easily overload personal shield generators turning the generators on your belt into a 2 kg bomb on your belt by interactions. It's mentioned off hand in Courtship of Princess Leia as old technology that went away because it was dangerous to user as well as foes and high powered blasters could overload them which in a mounted shield generator will just shut down but in a hand held unit overload=explosion.


It was an elegant solution thus my head canon but that's head-cannon not canon explanation.

[Adam Reynolds]

So they eventually discovered that personal shields, what, caused cancer?

My idea was that the firepower was lower and thus they were easier use without the problem of dumping the same level of waste energy. By the time of the films firepower had increased to the point at which it wasn't very effective to use them. For some reason I had always had this idea. Though it is now moot given the new canon.

[Galvatron]

Bioware sure does love their personal shields. In Mass Effect, they're called kinetic barriers and theyir Force users are called biotics.

[Crazedwraith]

So they eventually discovered that personal shields, what, caused cancer?

According to the EU they discovered a method at which you can easily overload personal shield generators turning the generators on your belt into a 2 kg bomb on your belt by interactions. It's mentioned off hand in Courtship of Princess Leia as old technology that went away because it was dangerous to user as well as foes and high powered blasters could overload them which in a mounted shield generator will just shut down but in a hand held unit overload=explosion.


It was an elegant solution thus my head canon but that's head-cannon not canon explanation.

So the Duns solution?

Just they ditched the shields instead of creating slow-blade fighting.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Bit like Dune really, isn't it?

[Mr Bean]

The thing is it's less Dune and more "If the enemy fields personal shields equip your soldiers with X, it still kills things but not as good as blasters and anyone using personal shields becomes a 50 kilo bomb as far as the nearby people are concerned"

Also the slow blade thing never existed for Wars shielding because the shield was more projected energy than blocking projectiles. Try a slow blade style on shields and you burn you hand off when you try and stick it past the ray shield.

[Prometheus Unbound]

reminds me of a scene from SG1's first season - when they discover the hand device has a force field. Carter notices that slow moving stuff goes through, fast stuff (bullets) don't.

"is directly proportional to the amount of kinetic energy that is directed at it"

my question - doesnt that mean that it'd work all the time? If it's "directly" proportional?

[NecronLord]

The thing is it's less Dune and more "If the enemy fields personal shields equip your soldiers with X, it still kills things but not as good as blasters and anyone using personal shields becomes a 50 kilo bomb as far as the nearby people are concerned"

Also the slow blade thing never existed for Wars shielding because the shield was more projected energy than blocking projectiles. Try a slow blade style on shields and you burn you hand off when you try and stick it past the ray shield.

It's very certainly a thing in KotOR.

Carth: And I can tell you from experience that they aren't any good at all against a simple vibroblade. That's why the Republic has been training soldiers in hand-to-hand and melee combat.