Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Vympel]

You should really just edit one post to say it all, but eh.

FFS, the moment they had Kylo Ren focus on Finn so intensely, the only thing that should have followed was that he was going to force choke the shit out of him.

Kylo Ren isn't like Darth Vader. He doesn't kill subordinates, he rages out and destroys whatever inanimate object is nearby when his plans are thwarted. Him noticing something off about Finn isn't a reason for a death sentence. Chalk it up to his conflicted personality, maybe he'll start killing subordinates in Episode 8.

But there's something at the core of your line of thought that you've assumed, and I've noticed in a lot of discussion about Finn.

Namely, its the idea that the First Order 'brainwashed' their soldiers, like literally - with machines or something. But there's no reason to believe that's actually the case. There's nothing in the film to support the idea, and Finn's mere existence tends heavily against it, as does the common sense of two stormtroopers who know better than to get closer to Ren's temper tantrum later in the film. These are not zonked out, fanatical automatons.

What we actually know about First Order troops is that they've been raised by the First Order since birth. So they would be heavily propagandized and raised with a 'correct' view of history etc. as far as the First Order is concerned. 'Reconditioning' is probably nothing more than political re-education / re-enforcement by a political commissar type figure/body.

(the E7:VD confirms this, by the way, but that is a matter of canon as opposed to what is/ isn't in the film)

[Galvatron]

Yeah, Ren's snarky advice to Hux that he should consider using a clone army left me with the impression that the "conditioning" of these new stormtroopers isn't quite all it's cracked up to be. Finn presumably had no outside influence that made him defy Phasma, his training simply wasn't enough to override his conscience when he was ordered to murder innocent people.

[Lord Revan]

also when they were discussing Finn it was clear that his case wasn't ultra rare which again suggests that Stormtroopers were not mindless automatons but more like for example Soviet or North Korean soldiers, raised to belive a certain way but still capable of independent thinking.

[Ender]

It's not about what is considered "good". People continue to flood the theaters watching the Transformers movies despite them being considered as a horrible film by every critic. Surprising, there are a lot of people out there that don't mind enjoying "bad" movies.

Don't confuse critics not liking what is done in the Transformers movies with the fundamentals of the movies being flawed. You have to be very very good at your job to be as "bad" as Michael Bay is. He knows exactly what he is doing when he serves the same stuff up and deliberately crafts it to that end. Think of it like McDonalds vs a 5 star restaurant - they spend a lot of time, money, and effort targeting their crappy fast food to be exactly the shit people will go and scarf down again and again and again; way more than the professionally rated chef does.

Kylo Ren isn't like Darth Vader. He doesn't kill subordinates, he rages out and destroys whatever inanimate object is nearby when his plans are thwarted. Him noticing something off about Finn isn't a reason for a death sentence. Chalk it up to his conflicted personality, maybe he'll start killing subordinates in Episode 8.

That Ren wants so badly to be Vader but lacks the control and power that made Anakin the intimidating commander he was goes a lot towards making this movie work for me.

The part where he is interrogating Rey really nails it home. He takes off his mask to reveal... nothing. Not a damn thing. Nothing at all. There is nothing wrong with him. His mask is just a literal mask. And it is brilliant. The mask isn’t anything he needs like Vader, isn’t anything he needs like Grievous. It is an adopted trapping of power. It is him trying to pretend to have the power and control of Vader, when from what we’ve seen is he just doesn’t. Kylo Ren's connection to the Force is so tenuous that he has to punch himself in his wound to get angry enough to call upon the dark side while Anakin was a literal demigod. Anakin was born of the Force and could use it with proficiently, subtlety, and with a causal ease we don’t see from any other master, not even Yoda. For him there was no challenge to it, any more than there was for a fish to swim, it was his natural element. It was only when he ran up to anything the Force could not do, to save those he loved from death, that he found any limits to his abilities, leading to his fall from grace and he sought to circumvent those limits. While Kylo Ren couldn't master the very basics of commanding the Force, and got his shit kicked in by someone untrained as a result.

Ren worships Vader, tries to emulate him, but he doesn’t understand the man, he lacks everything that made Anakin great or Vader commanding. Anakin was a master of the Force, Vader a master of himself. Ben is a true novice, a teenager with no control or restraint. He is prideful, violent, petulant and ignorant. His mask is the trappings of authority, a costume to pretend he has power and abilities he doesn't have. He can't forge an empire and instead joins a cult; he can't build armor and instead wears a tattered disguise, he can't find a master but is instead a pawn to a man who hasn't even trained him, he can't craft a lightsabre and instead wields a sputtering, failing device; he is not trained in his swordsmanship at all, lacking any skill, simply swinging wildly as he butchers others, so he is a match for soldier and gets his ass beat by another force sensitive.

He is nothing like Anakin, and nothing like Vader. They couldn’t be any less similar because even as a 9 year old Anakin dominated any space he was in. Ben is literally a Vader wannabe, scared of the light, angry at one parent who pushed him to it, sending him away rather than understanding what it was, not able to comprehend being hurt by the light or tempted by the dark. He was angrier at another parent who has had to deal with the pain of not living up to the ideals of the light, but literally cannot understand or relate to what he is going through, disappointing Ben as a result, and making their pleas to him hollow.

The arc between Han-Kylo Ren-Leia and the worldbuilding tied up in it is all that keeps The Force Awakening from being worse than Attack of the Clones.

But there's something at the core of your line of thought that you've assumed, and I've noticed in a lot of discussion about Finn.

Namely, its the idea that the First Order 'brainwashed' their soldiers, like literally - with machines or something. But there's no reason to believe that's actually the case. There's nothing in the film to support the idea, and Finn's mere existence tends heavily against it, as does the common sense of two stormtroopers who know better than to get closer to Ren's temper tantrum later in the film. These are not zonked out, fanatical automatons.

What we actually know about First Order troops is that they've been raised by the First Order since birth. So they would be heavily propagandized and raised with a 'correct' view of history etc. as far as the First Order is concerned. 'Reconditioning' is probably nothing more than political re-education / re-enforcement by a political commissar type figure/body.

(the E7:VD confirms this, by the way, but that is a matter of canon as opposed to what is/ isn't in the film)

My takeaway was that the First order is to the Empire what North Korea is to China - the backwards leader worshiping shithole that plunged all its resources into one or two superweapons leaving it this impoverished joke that happens to have a WMD, vs an actual ruling power. While Sidious' Galactic Empire was an evil EMPIRE, the First Order is an EVIL empire. Sidious' was a polity first, and had to deal with politics, courtiers, governors, and all the essentials of a state right up until the battle of Endor. The First Order is a tiny backwater that is focused on the worship of the dark side and force sensitives without a larger governing apparatus, that has thrown all its resources into a wildly impractical superweapon (it can only fire twice) to the point of humiliating impoverishment. They have a single ship, they are so short of manpower that they are having stormtroopers act as janitors, so short of troops they are then putting those janitors on the front lines. They were brainwashing babies because they couldn't afford clones. The grand superweapon it constructed has a total of 2 shots in it before being a garbage heap.

It ties in wonderfully with the part of how Ren is emulating Vader and failing. Anakin carved an Empire from the stars. The First Order is a fucking joke. Nothing they do comes anywhere close to what Anakin achieved. We open to people literally walking through the skeletons of what he created. The characters of the latter trilogy who saw him tear down what he created turn out to have been of the world rather than transcending it as he did, living through it and having their own flawed lives, dealing with the aftermath now that the demigod as moved past this plane. Ren is one of those people stumbling among the ashes, pretending at past glories.

[Ender]

I should point out that on a meta level having Kylo Ren be a Vader wannabe is just perfect. Any villain they created was going to be compared to Vader, and with the exception of like 3 people in Hollywood no one would be able to create a character to match, let alone surpass, the iconic power and sheer presence of Darth Vader.

So if your villain is going to be called a Vader knockoff no matter what, make him an actual Vader knockoff and tie that into his character development. It is a brilliant way to sidestep the problem while adding weight to the new character at the same time.

[ray245]

I should point out that on a meta level having Kylo Ren be a Vader wannabe is just perfect. Any villain they created was going to be compared to Vader, and with the exception of like 3 people in Hollywood no one would be able to create a character to match, let alone surpass, the iconic power and sheer presence of Darth Vader.

So if your villain is going to be called a Vader knockoff no matter what, make him an actual Vader knockoff and tie that into his character development. It is a brilliant way to sidestep the problem while adding weight to the new character at the same time.

The prequels and other EU managed to do it by creating vilans that aren't trying to be like Vader at all. Sure, Darth Maul isn't as iconic as Vader, but that doesn't stop him from being popular with many fans. Then we have other characters like Thrawn and etc.

Don't try and match Vader, try and do something different from Vader.

[Galvatron]

Don't try and match Vader, try and do something different from Vader.

I'm pretty sure that's what they're doing and was also the point Ender made rather well.

[Vympel]

That Ren wants so badly to be Vader but lacks the control and power that made Anakin the intimidating commander he was goes a lot towards making this movie work for me.

The part where he is interrogating Rey really nails it home. He takes off his mask to reveal... nothing. Not a damn thing. Nothing at all. There is nothing wrong with him. His mask is just a literal mask. And it is brilliant. The mask isn’t anything he needs like Vader, isn’t anything he needs like Grievous. It is an adopted trapping of power. It is him trying to pretend to have the power and control of Vader, when from what we’ve seen is he just doesn’t. Kylo Ren's connection to the Force is so tenuous that he has to punch himself in his wound to get angry enough to call upon the dark side while Anakin was a literal demigod. Anakin was born of the Force and could use it with proficiently, subtlety, and with a causal ease we don’t see from any other master, not even Yoda. For him there was no challenge to it, any more than there was for a fish to swim, it was his natural element. It was only when he ran up to anything the Force could not do, to save those he loved from death, that he found any limits to his abilities, leading to his fall from grace and he sought to circumvent those limits. While Kylo Ren couldn't master the very basics of commanding the Force, and got his shit kicked in by someone untrained as a result.

Ren worships Vader, tries to emulate him, but he doesn’t understand the man, he lacks everything that made Anakin great or Vader commanding. Anakin was a master of the Force, Vader a master of himself. Ben is a true novice, a teenager with no control or restraint. He is prideful, violent, petulant and ignorant. His mask is the trappings of authority, a costume to pretend he has power and abilities he doesn't have. He can't forge an empire and instead joins a cult; he can't build armor and instead wears a tattered disguise, he can't find a master but is instead a pawn to a man who hasn't even trained him, he can't craft a lightsabre and instead wields a sputtering, failing device; he is not trained in his swordsmanship at all, lacking any skill, simply swinging wildly as he butchers others, so he is a match for soldier and gets his ass beat by another force sensitive.

He is nothing like Anakin, and nothing like Vader. They couldn’t be any less similar because even as a 9 year old Anakin dominated any space he was in. Ben is literally a Vader wannabe, scared of the light, angry at one parent who pushed him to it, sending him away rather than understanding what it was, not able to comprehend being hurt by the light or tempted by the dark. He was angrier at another parent who has had to deal with the pain of not living up to the ideals of the light, but literally cannot understand or relate to what he is going through, disappointing Ben as a result, and making their pleas to him hollow.

Agreed on all of this.

My takeaway was that the First order is to the Empire what North Korea is to China - the backwards leader worshiping shithole that plunged all its resources into one or two superweapons leaving it this impoverished joke that happens to have a WMD, vs an actual ruling power. While Sidious' Galactic Empire was an evil EMPIRE, the First Order is an EVIL empire. Sidious' was a polity first, and had to deal with politics, courtiers, governors, and all the essentials of a state right up until the battle of Endor. The First Order is a tiny backwater that is focused on the worship of the dark side and force sensitives without a larger governing apparatus, that has thrown all its resources into a wildly impractical superweapon (it can only fire twice) to the point of humiliating impoverishment. They have a single ship

No, they have multiple ships. We see four or five dagger-shaped ships (almost certainly Resurgent-class) in orbit of Starkiller Base, distant from Kylo Ren's ship (the establishing shot, in the scene where Kylo Ren is talking to Vader's burned helm).

they are so short of manpower that they are having stormtroopers act as janitors, so short of troops they are then putting those janitors on the front lines. They were brainwashing babies because they couldn't afford clones. The grand superweapon it constructed has a total of 2 shots in it before being a garbage heap.

Two things here:

- the fact that Finn was stationed in sanitation does not make him a janitor. This is a common assumption, but not one the film ever confirms.
- Starkiller Base was one star per shot, as Finn basically states and as everything in the film's finale clearly implies:

FINN
It uses the power of the sun. As
the weapon is charged, the sun is
drained until it disappears.

POE
Yeah, we gotta keep hitting it!
Another bombing run! Remember, when
that sun is gone, that weapon will
be ready to fire! But as long as
there's light, we got a chance.

(Poe has no way of knowing this to be true unless the Base uses one star per shot.)

Its apparent that Starkiller Base in the film extinguished one star, then jumped to new system, fired, then proceeded to extinguish that star and was destroyed before it could fire.

While it isn't stated in the film that Starkiller Base was mobile, its been subsequently clarified that this was the case, and it was fairly obvious IMO (otherwise it'd be comically useless).

[Kojiro]

Its apparent that Starkiller Base in the film extinguished one star, then jumped to new system, fired, then proceeded to extinguish that star and was destroyed before it could fire.

This is a minor nitpick but that sorta annoys me. It was hidden to begin with, and while I can buy that once it fired it's location was able to be discerned, once it moved it's just another planet in the galaxy. Especially if it stays in Unknown Space finding it should be- literally- an astronomical task.

That said it also seems that it could more or less wreck a system just by jumping in, draining the sun and leaving.

[Tribble]

Its apparent that Starkiller Base in the film extinguished one star, then jumped to new system, fired, then proceeded to extinguish that star and was destroyed before it could fire.

This is a minor nitpick but that sorta annoys me. It was hidden to begin with, and while I can buy that once it fired it's location was able to be discerned, once it moved it's just another planet in the galaxy. Especially if it stays in Unknown Space finding it should be- literally- an astronomical task.

That said it also seems that it could more or less wreck a system just by jumping in, draining the sun and leaving.

Perhaps it has a slow hyperdrive and/or a short range? I'd imagine moving it would have been pretty difficult. They could have just jumped to the nearest star as that would have been the easiest and quickest way to recharge it. Also, it's possible that there was some residual energy and whatnot after firing the weapon which made it easy to spot on scanners.

[Ender]

Two things here:

- the fact that Finn was stationed in sanitation does not make him a janitor. This is a common assumption, but not one the film ever confirms.

Is there another term for "sanitation department worker" I should have used from my thesaurus instead?

- Starkiller Base was one star per shot, as Finn basically states and as everything in the film's finale clearly implies:

FINN
It uses the power of the sun. As
the weapon is charged, the sun is
drained until it disappears.

POE
Yeah, we gotta keep hitting it!
Another bombing run! Remember, when
that sun is gone, that weapon will
be ready to fire! But as long as
there's light, we got a chance.

(Poe has no way of knowing this to be true unless the Base uses one star per shot.)

Its apparent that Starkiller Base in the film extinguished one star, then jumped to new system, fired, then proceeded to extinguish that star and was destroyed before it could fire.

No, that isn't apparent at all. There is nothing in the film that indicates it can travel - in fact that it fires its weapon across the galaxy instead of being able to travel to the target was a plot point. We are told it eats the star to get the power. We see it powering up for a second shot eats the last of the star. So 2 shots per star. This whole bit of nonsensical techobabble is present solely so the star can go out and darkness fall over Ren's face for ~*~symbolism~*~ and to call back the good shots from RotS of Anakin's face being framed in darkness as he joins the Sith.

While it isn't stated in the film that Starkiller Base was mobile, its been subsequently clarified that this was the case, and it was fairly obvious IMO (otherwise it'd be comically useless).

My goodness, a JJ Abrams film where the tenuous plot points make no sense and make every action completely nonsensical? That this terrible plot exists only so he can string together recreations of imagery from the existing intellectual property he is referencing? What a thought! Next you will tell me that his protagonists do nothing to earn their victories because he runs up to a wall and just needs the movie to end now that he is out of shots to rehash. Or that he will casually show mass devastation, death, and mayhem without every establishing connection or exploring fallout, leaving it an exercise in SFX masturbation

(In case it isn't clear, I really don't like JJ Abrams as a film maker, and didn't particularly like TFA - I put it about on par with Phantom Menace in terms of quality. I rank the series 5463172)

"It has been subsequently clarified" may be fine for doing tech analysis (though it requires allowing a contradiction to the film's framing on the grounds of "we know this is fucking stupid, roll with it") but it is terrible for a film. That excuse has been their papering over for a whole hell of a lot of things, like the fact that R2 woke up and solved the whole mystery that the preceding 2 hours and 25 minutes had done nothing to resolve. It is one of the many things that makes this a bad film.

It is one of the same problems the prequels had. The text needs to stand coherently on its own. "read the director interviews on the post release press circuit, these 3 novels, and these 18 comic book collections" is not an acceptable film making technique.

[Vympel]

Is there another term for "sanitation department worker" I should have used from my thesaurus instead?

Except he never said he was a sanitation department worker. For all we know he was a guard. Though I don't see anything wrong with an organisation like the First Order having its personnel do double duty, since it makes sense they wouldn't have unlimited manpower, as you say. Further, there's no reason to belive that was a current job at all - he's doing missions with Kylo Ren and Captain Phasma in the film, not sanitation. It could've been several years prior for all we know.

No, that isn't apparent at all.

I've already expalined why it is - that is, both Finn and Poe clearly say so. In particular, Poe's statement makes no sense if the Starkiller can fire multiple shots from one star, as he would have no justification for saying that only the star disappearing would mean their chance to stop the base is over. Complaining that its there for 'symobolism' as you go on to do is irrelevant - the reason(s) its there doesn't matter, only the obvious implications.

Your '2 shots for one star' interpretation takes no account of this aspect of the script save to ignore it, and is wholly fixated on not being expressly told that the base can move.

There is nothing in the film that indicates it can travel

Expressly? No. Implicitly? Sure there is - since the base needs a star to fire, and the star disappears upon completion of charging (as Finn states and as Poe also clearly indicates) it is obvious that the base must be able to travel to another star system in order to fire more than once.

- in fact that it fires its weapon across the galaxy instead of being able to travel to the target was a plot point.

So? No one ever tied the weapon's range to it being stationary. Immense galactic-scale range has obvious tactical and strategic benefits beyond "necessary because the base can't move".

We are told it eats the star to get the power. We see it powering up for a second shot eats the last of the star. So 2 shots per star.

No, we're told by two seperate quotes that it eats an entire star to get the power to fire a shot. Nothing about it being only 'the last of a star' or 2 shots per star.

This whole bit of nonsensical techobabble is present solely so the star can go out and darkness fall over Ren's face for ~*~symbolism~*~ and to call back the good shots from RotS of Anakin's face being framed in darkness as he joins the Sith.

I don't see how its anymore nonsensical or technobabbly than anything else technological in the saga. Its really quite simple, conceptually. Where's the 'technobabble' exactly?

(In case it isn't clear, I really don't like JJ Abrams as a film maker, and didn't particularly like TFA - I put it about on par with Phantom Menace in terms of quality. I rank the series 5463172)

I rank the series 5467321. But if you ask me 6 months from now I'd probably say 5467312 because the degree to which AotC and TPM are more garbage than the other changes in my mind quite often.

"It has been subsequently clarified" may be fine for doing tech analysis (though it requires allowing a contradiction to the film's framing on the grounds of "we know this is fucking stupid, roll with it") but it is terrible for a film. That excuse has been their papering over for a whole hell of a lot of things, like the fact that R2 woke up and solved the whole mystery that the preceding 2 hours and 25 minutes had done nothing to resolve. It is one of the many things that makes this a bad film.

R2 couldn't have solved anything without BB8's portion of the map. If you're referring to R2 waking up at the end, to me it didn't need clarification. If anything, I thought JJ Abrams explaining his thinking wasn't very good:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj ... ce-awakens

I quickly decided after seeing the film the first time that since the only thing that changed in between BB8 first arriving at the Resistance base with the map and the second time was the additional presence of Rey, then Rey is the relevant thing that made him awake (possibly because Luke told him so?).

[Vympel]

This is a minor nitpick but that sorta annoys me. It was hidden to begin with, and while I can buy that once it fired it's location was able to be discerned, once it moved it's just another planet in the galaxy. Especially if it stays in Unknown Space finding it should be- literally- an astronomical task.

That said it also seems that it could more or less wreck a system just by jumping in, draining the sun and leaving.

Yeah, this goes back to my issues with the film - take a little more time, slow down, and you can dispatch minor nitpicks like this with one or two lines of dialog.

EDIT: this goes to the core, of course, as to what makes a minor nitpick minor. If its a supposed story problem that can be resolved with a line or so of dialog, its almost certainly not that big a flaw in the story.

[Kojiro]

In my opinion though TFA contains enough 'minor' nitpicks that the accumulation detracts from my overall liking of it.

[Vympel]

In my opinion though TFA contains enough 'minor' nitpicks that the accumulation detracts from my overall liking of it.

IMO, how much I like a movie will directly inform whether I can be bothered nitpicking it to death or be willing to ignore minor unexplained plot points. Anal leakage like 2015's Spectre (easily the worst Daniel Craig Bond film, by a huge margin, and IMO the worst film of the year) will get absolutely no mercy from me.

[Kojiro]

IMO, how much I like a movie will directly inform whether I can be bothered nitpicking it to death or be willing to ignore minor unexplained plot points.

The key word here for me is 'bothered' as if some conscious effort has to be expended to find them. I don't mind if I notice these things after the fact, it's the mid movie ones that really annoy me.

[Channel72]

I was hoping Ep 7 will be able to match the visuals we saw in Avatar, and on a much grander scale. Instead we have a movie that tries too hard to recreate the feeling of ANH ( not even ROTJ). The story we saw in TFA could easily be depicted on a TCW cartoon budget.

I guess it's this kind of expectation that baffles the type of people who thought TFA was awesome. Perhaps it's an age/generational thing, I don't know. But really, from where I'm standing, the kind of visuals in Avatar are utterly mediocre. The fact is that visual F/X have stagnated to a pretty major degree, and so they're never really a major selling point to me anymore.

See, back in the late 80s/early 90s, there were some major F/X breakthroughs in terms of CGI. The kind of effects in The Abyss and Terminator 2 (involving liquid-metal/water tentacles) was truly something amazing that hadn't been seen before. And then, of course, in the mid-90s, Jurassic Park came along and utterly redefined what everyone expected from visuals in a film. But after that, nothing so revolutionary really happened again. Star Wars Episode I came along and provided the first all-CGI main character, except (1) he sucked, and (2) the CGI didn't age well at all. I think the LOTR trilogy provided the definitive CGI character breakthrough with motion-captured Gollum. I still haven't seen a CGI character that looks better. Even the breathtaking city-scapes in Episode I and 2 weren't entirely new - I mean, Coruscant looks great, and is definitely one of the coolest visuals in the Prequels, but even that had been done before in 5th Element's futuristic NYC. Regardless, after all this, Avatar was utterly underwhelming. Seriously, half the scenes in that movie seem indistinguishable from a video game to me. And the CGI motion-capture wasn't even half as impressive as Gollum from Two Towers.

So I just don't understand this desire to see more crazy CGI city-scapes and creatures and have 5 billion rendered NURBS on the screen shooting lasers. There's just nothing impressive about it anymore - you see the same shit on the average video-game commercial. I think CGI is best used to complement practical effects, like how Jurassic Park used a rendered T-rex when it was running from a distance, but practical models when up close. To that extent, I thought the many practical effects in TFA were a refreshing change from the usual Polygon-saturated bullshit you see in the average Transformer sequel. In fact, the worst effects in TFA were the CGI creature effects (the tentacle monsters in Han's ship, and of course Snoke.)

[SilverDragonRed]

Rey getting kidnapped did that too, really, but it also balances the destruction of the Republic capitol, you can't just ignore that and do nothing, in favor of the treasure hunt, but without blowing up the Republic there would be either the sense that this is a small battle that doesn't matter, or that apparently no progress was made after ROTJ. You'd have to show the Republic restored, but then somehow neutralized I think to give the characters actions significance.

I'd love to believe a SW trilogy could run on small scale character driven plots, but I mean, the title is Star Wars.

Doesn't really make sense to me considering the confusion of scale that comes with the introduction of the Centerpoint StationStarkiller Base. But that is more than likely just me. I would have preferred the story to have remained low-key. Questions I have about the socio-political or economic state of the galaxy only sprung because of the Starkiller.

[Simon_Jester]

Its apparent that Starkiller Base in the film extinguished one star, then jumped to new system, fired, then proceeded to extinguish that star and was destroyed before it could fire.

This is a minor nitpick but that sorta annoys me. It was hidden to begin with, and while I can buy that once it fired it's location was able to be discerned, once it moved it's just another planet in the galaxy. Especially if it stays in Unknown Space finding it should be- literally- an astronomical task.

That said it also seems that it could more or less wreck a system just by jumping in, draining the sun and leaving.

Maybe Starkiller Base is so big that attempts to move it around show up on long range sensors? It's literally the size of a planet, maybe its hyperdrive is in some sense 'noisy.' We know that in Star Wars, many people have sensors capable of detecting hyperspace jumps that pass near them.

This base is literally the size of an entire Earth-like world, it's probably thousands of times larger in mass and bulk than anything else that has ever traveled through hyperspace (namely, the first Death Star). It might very well be that you can see it moving around from the other side of the galaxy. Especially once you know it's there and can focus your long range sensors on its location to watch it move around.

The part where he is interrogating Rey really nails it home. He takes off his mask to reveal... nothing. Not a damn thing. Nothing at all... It is him trying to pretend to have the power and control of Vader, when from what we’ve seen is he just doesn’t. Kylo Ren's connection to the Force is so tenuous that he has to punch himself in his wound to get angry enough to call upon the dark side while Anakin was a literal demigod...

I love this observation and think it's a good one... but I honestly thought Ren was thumping the wound more to keep some kind of bandage or restraint in place. Am I wrong?

Anakin was born of the Force and could use it with proficiently, subtlety, and with a causal ease we don’t see from any other master, not even Yoda. For him there was no challenge to it, any more than there was for a fish to swim, it was his natural element. It was only when he ran up to anything the Force could not do, to save those he loved from death, that he found any limits to his abilities, leading to his fall from grace and he sought to circumvent those limits. While Kylo Ren couldn't master the very basics of commanding the Force, and got his shit kicked in by someone untrained as a result.

Although we may well learn that Rey is herself such a being who swims in the Force and is immensely powerful; hard to know. Anakin himself was such a natural that he could do Force-aided piloting and fly vehicles no ordinary human could fly, even at the age of eight or nine or whatever. If he'd also had adult experiences and engaged in hand to hand combat on a regular basis (as Rey did; we saw how tough she can be with a quarterstaff), he might have been quite dangerous the very first time someone put a lightsaber into his hand.

Likewise, we do see Ren pull off impressive feats of Force use, in particular his ability to just freaking stop a blaster bolt in midair, and leave it hanging there, which is not a thing we've ever seen before and which recalls how Vader "caught" Han's blaster fire on Bespin without even bothering to draw his lightsaber.

He can't forge an empire and instead joins a cult; he can't build armor and instead wears a tattered disguise...

Oooh, I like that... It's very true.

Although, again in mitigation, Ren must have had some defense going for him. I mean, Chewie's bowcaster is played up as a powerful heavy weapon in this movie, they repeatedly bring up just how deadly it is and how it knocks people flying and kills them instantly. And yet Ren is capable of moving around and fighting pretty well even after being gutshot with the thing. If he's not wearing armor, he must be doing something pretty effective.

Anyway, I'd say that he's not a totally powerless individual- but he's a lot less powerful than he'd like, and his inner conflicts weaken him so that even if he does have considerable powers, his character is still psychologically a weakling.

This may be why Rey, despite a lack of training, is able to get inside his head in the interrogation scene. Rey has a well-integrated psyche and is stable and reasonable, except perhaps for her one issue of being desperately loyal to the idea that her family will come back for her in spite of the evidence. Meanwhile, Ren... is anything but stable. I can't imagine his mental defenses are very solid; even if he has training he doesn't have the psychic integrity to guard and discipline his own mind.

he can't find a master but is instead a pawn to a man who hasn't even trained him, he can't craft a lightsabre and instead wields a sputtering, failing device...

I did notice the thematic difference between Ren's lightsaber and those of others. At first I looked at Ren's saber and thought 'oh, that is how they're portraying lightsabers in the new trilogy, with all this crackling fire...' and that would actually make a certain sense. Lightsabers were always meant to thematically recall flaming magical swords, after all.

But then I saw the contrast between that and Anakin's saber, which was the same cool, controlled, blue cylinder of cutting light we'd seen in four previous movies. And realized it was a deliberate, thematic choice.

Likewise, the way Ren customizes it with the lightsaber-crossguard; he's trying random new stuff in an attempt to be 'stronger' or 'better,' but it looks foolish and he comes across as a poser, as people actually commented on back when the trailers were out. People made fun of the crossguard, but now I'm realizing that this may be exactly the point of having the crossguard. It's the weapon of a posturing creep who is trying desperately to be 'strong' enough to commit the evils he associates with big bad dark Vader. Or of a tornado of deadly malice like Darth Maul. But he just doesn't have it in him.

So he's always searching for an edge, always trying to somehow make himself stronger, willing to cheat and trick and betray for personal advantage. Whereas Vader never needed to cheat- he was just flat out stronger and nastier than others.

The arc between Han-Kylo Ren-Leia and the worldbuilding tied up in it is all that keeps The Force Awakening from being worse than Attack of the Clones.

Mhm. I can go with that.

I should point out that on a meta level having Kylo Ren be a Vader wannabe is just perfect. Any villain they created was going to be compared to Vader, and with the exception of like 3 people in Hollywood no one would be able to create a character to match, let alone surpass, the iconic power and sheer presence of Darth Vader.

So if your villain is going to be called a Vader knockoff no matter what, make him an actual Vader knockoff and tie that into his character development. It is a brilliant way to sidestep the problem while adding weight to the new character at the same time.

I really like your take on the character.

No, that isn't apparent at all. There is nothing in the film that indicates it can travel - in fact that it fires its weapon across the galaxy instead of being able to travel to the target was a plot point. We are told it eats the star to get the power. We see it powering up for a second shot eats the last of the star. So 2 shots per star...

They don't explicitly spell out that Starkiller Base is mobile, but they DO explicitly say it eats stars, and we see it shoot twice.

It honestly never occurred to me, while I was watching the movie, that Starkiller Base hadn't jumped from one system to another in order to fire its second shot.

This whole bit of nonsensical techobabble is present solely so the star can go out and darkness fall over Ren's face for ~*~symbolism~*~ and to call back the good shots from RotS of Anakin's face being framed in darkness as he joins the Sith.

I don't know, I think it actually makes a good superweapon that is "Death Star-like" without just being yet another Death Star identical to the last two.

Its ability to destroy planets across galactic distances is a major escalation of firepower, although not one that actually makes it much harder for hyperdrive-equipped heroes to attack, so you make it seem more dangerous without making it unbeatable.

The fact that it devours stars for power rather than having its own onboard reactor ties into the whole "First Order is operating on a shoestring;" they don't have the resources to build a self-powered weapon of planetary destruction, so they build one that draws power from an outside source... but then they find a way to turn that very limitation into a potential weapon by having the base destroy the star it's fired from.

Next you will tell me that his protagonists do nothing to earn their victories because he runs up to a wall and just needs the movie to end now that he is out of shots to rehash. Or that he will casually show mass devastation, death, and mayhem without every establishing connection or exploring fallout, leaving it an exercise in SFX masturbation

...but it is terrible for a film. That excuse has been their papering over for a whole hell of a lot of things, like the fact that R2 woke up and solved the whole mystery that the preceding 2 hours and 25 minutes had done nothing to resolve. It is one of the many things that makes this a bad film.

Now, that, you are correct, I did not like either.

It would have been much better if Fin had somehow managed to locate a copy of the map the First Order already had (we hear Snoke say they have most of the map and just need the missing piece), while they were on Starkiller Base. Then they find it on his body, try to use it, and realize that hey, he accomplished a significant chunk of the mission! That would have helped to make his contribution to the overall struggle more heroic; he actually accomplishes something that helps advance the second half of the plot other than "inform Resistance of the base's existence" and "think of taking Phasma hostage" and "try to fight Ren and fail."

Having R2 'wake up' isn't so bad as such, but using R2 as a literal Deus Ex Machina to resolve the problem of finding Skywalker... not so good. It kind of makes sense R2 might have special information about Luke's whereabouts, but it should have taken more effort for the protagonists to get that information.

[Vympel]

The fact that it devours stars for power rather than having its own onboard reactor ties into the whole "First Order is operating on a shoestring;" they don't have the resources to build a self-powered weapon of planetary destruction, so they build one that draws power from an outside source... but then they find a way to turn that very limitation into a potential weapon by having the base destroy the star it's fired from.

I don't think that was the intent, but in any event it doesn't really work - Starkiller Base having to consume an entire star to fire its weapon puts it many orders of magnitude above either Death Star - and that its able to absorb all of this without vaporizing itself is stunning. There's nothing cheap about it - Death Star firepower estimates were pegged off multiples of the instantaneous power generation of stars - Starkiller Base requires everything the star consumes over the course of its entire life time - so its entirely reasonable to posit that an onboard reactor is simply inadequate.

[Channel72]

The fact that it devours stars for power rather than having its own onboard reactor ties into the whole "First Order is operating on a shoestring;" they don't have the resources to build a self-powered weapon of planetary destruction, so they build one that draws power from an outside source... but then they find a way to turn that very limitation into a potential weapon by having the base destroy the star it's fired from.

I don't think that was the intent, but in any event it doesn't really work - Starkiller Base having to consume an entire star to fire its weapon puts it many orders of magnitude above either Death Star - and that its able to absorb all of this without vaporizing itself is stunning. There's nothing cheap about it - Death Star firepower estimates were pegged off multiples of the instantaneous power generation of stars - Starkiller Base requires everything the star consumes over the course of its entire life time - so its entirely reasonable to posit that an onboard reactor is simply inadequate.

Which is why, I think, it would be better if Starkiller Base was not a First Order engineering project, but actually another superweapon the Empire was developing secretly - and the First Order simply took it over after the Empire fell apart. (And probably hired/absorbed many of the Imperial engineers who worked on it.)

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think that was the intent, but in any event it doesn't really work - Starkiller Base having to consume an entire star to fire its weapon puts it many orders of magnitude above either Death Star - and that its able to absorb all of this without vaporizing itself is stunning. There's nothing cheap about it - Death Star firepower estimates were pegged off multiples of the instantaneous power generation of stars - Starkiller Base requires everything the star consumes over the course of its entire life time - so its entirely reasonable to posit that an onboard reactor is simply inadequate.

Fair point. On the other hand...

The Sun outputs about four hundred trillion terawatts of power. Charging a weapon capable of blowing up a planet by absorbing the full energy output of the Earth's sun (or a similar G-class star) would take days, at least. To perform a Death Star style rapid dispersion of the planet's mass (such that it would appear to be blown to fragments like a globe with a firecracker inside, as opposed to looking like it's just slowly coming apart) would require absorbing the full output of the sun for years, maybe even centuries.

However, there's no reason to assume that the Starkiller weapon actually uses the lifetime energy output of a star. Stars aren't gigantic batteries that store a fixed amount of energy which can be released 'quickly' or 'slowly' with equal efficiency. They're gigantic fusion reactors that have to maintain high temperatures and pressures in order to function. If they stop functioning, they stop generating any energy.

Draining the star's core of heat so that it can no longer sustain nuclear fusion would 'kill' it, and trigger a preemptive collapse of the star's core, probably resulting in a nova or other such event.* But this would not necessarily yield the same amount of energy you could get just by parking a Dyson sphere around the star and trickle-charging for a million years. Likewise, draining the star's surface of heat would cause it to visually 'go out' in that no more light could be seen from it until the core warmed the outer layers back up (and possibly destabilize the star somehow, though this is less certain)... but again, it wouldn't supply total energy equal to the total lifetime output of the star.
____________________

*Note that this is another very good reason to make your Starkiller weapon mobile- if it is not mobile, it will soon be located in the same star system as a nova triggered by the collapse of the destroyed remnants of the star you just drained! That might take hours or days to happen, but it would happen.

Even if the First Order explicitly planned for that result ahead of time and knew an immobile Starkiller weapon would be destroyed after firing one or two shots, they would then NOT have made Starkiller Base a major installation to be used for other purposes. They wouldn't muster large armies of troops there, and they wouldn't put senior personnel there, nor would they take prisoners there for interrogation. The facility might be well fortified, but it would be a 'disposable' installation containing only the equipment and military functions necessary to serve its purpose. And, presumably, have everyone evacuate after the final, 'star-killing' shot that makes destruction of the base certain.

Which is why, I think, it would be better if Starkiller Base was not a First Order engineering project, but actually another superweapon the Empire was developing secretly - and the First Order simply took it over after the Empire fell apart. (And probably hired/absorbed many of the Imperial engineers who worked on it.)

That would make a lot of sense except that we already know exactly what the Empire was working on as its secret weapon right up until the destruction of Endor- namely, the second Death Star.

The Empire might have planned Starkiller Base, might have done the preliminary work on developing it, but that doesn't mean they would have gotten far along with the construction. Why would they do so when that would distract resources from the Death Stars?

Also, the First Order/Imperial remnants have thirty years or more to build Starkiller Base. Given that the Empire managed to construct the second Death Star in no more than a year or two, without making enough of an obvious dent in the Imperial economy for anyone to comment on it in canon. It seems likely that a remnant controlling a few percent of the Empire's strength could, by great sacrifice, construct a weapon of comparable size and scale in thirty years.

[Vympel]

Fair point. On the other hand...
The Sun outputs about four hundred trillion terawatts of power. Charging a weapon capable of blowing up a planet by absorbing the full energy output of the Earth's sun (or a similar G-class star) would take days, at least. To perform a Death Star style rapid dispersion of the planet's mass (such that it would appear to be blown to fragments like a globe with a firecracker inside, as opposed to looking like it's just slowly coming apart) would require absorbing the full output of the sun for years, maybe even centuries.

Are you referring to the difference in Starkiller Base destroying the Hosnian system and the Death Star destroying Alderaan? If so, you're forgetting the energy expended in making that multi-shot-beam travel faster-than-light across the galaxy via hyperspace.

However, there's no reason to assume that the Starkiller weapon actually uses the lifetime energy output of a star. Stars aren't gigantic batteries that store a fixed amount of energy which can be released 'quickly' or 'slowly' with equal efficiency. They're gigantic fusion reactors that have to maintain high temperatures and pressures in order to function. If they stop functioning, they stop generating any energy.

Yes, the star would stop functioning, but that's the point - it isn't relying on the star to generate the energy, its apparent that the star's mass/energy is being directly absorbed by the Starkiller, which uses it for its own purposes (ref: "as the weapon is charged, the sun is drained until it disappears", / Starkiller Base seen literally vacuuming the star's mass). Starkiller Base would have to absorb only a comically small amount of a star's mass in order to reach the Death Star's 10^38J*.

It doesn't really matter though - while we could enter into a semi-academic discussion of the mechanics of how Starkiller Base's power generation works based off of the film, the novelization tells us that absorbing a star is just the intermediate stage to enable the collection of 'dark energy' so that Starkiller Base has access to an "almost literally infinite source of energy" (actual quote) anyway.

When you're talking about faster-than-light trans-galactic weaponry, referring to almost infinite sources of energy is probably wise. Its clearly a weapons system with engineering / power requirements far in excess of either Death Star by default (indeed, the novelization has Admiral Ackbar decry the engineering required to draw on dark energy as being impossible).

Draining the star's core of heat so that it can no longer sustain nuclear fusion would 'kill' it, and trigger a preemptive collapse of the star's core, probably resulting in a nova or other such event.* But this would not necessarily yield the same amount of energy you could get just by parking a Dyson sphere around the star and trickle-charging for a million years. Likewise, draining the star's surface of heat would cause it to visually 'go out' in that no more light could be seen from it until the core warmed the outer layers back up (and possibly destabilize the star somehow, though this is less certain)... but again, it wouldn't supply total energy equal to the total lifetime output of the star.

Recall that Finn tells us that stars absorbed by the Starkiller disappear. This isn't a matter of just taking heat, but mass- which is probably why there's no indication that any of the star is left behind or any sort of resulting stellar catastrophe in any of the material.

That would make a lot of sense except that we already know exactly what the Empire was working on as its secret weapon right up until the destruction of Endor- namely, the second Death Star.

The Empire might have planned Starkiller Base, might have done the preliminary work on developing it, but that doesn't mean they would have gotten far along with the construction. Why would they do so when that would distract resources from the Death Stars?

Also, the First Order/Imperial remnants have thirty years or more to build Starkiller Base. Given that the Empire managed to construct the second Death Star in no more than a year or two, without making enough of an obvious dent in the Imperial economy for anyone to comment on it in canon. It seems likely that a remnant controlling a few percent of the Empire's strength could, by great sacrifice, construct a weapon of comparable size and scale in thirty years.

Note, the Episode 7 Visual Dictionary says that Starkiller Base is the culmination of Galactic Empire research on dark energy and hyperspace tunneling - and also makes apparent that it was constructed by the First Order, and not the Empire (it refers to the planetary selection process being conducted by the First Order).

*EDIT: http://nerdist.com/the-physics-of-stark ... perweapon/

As Dr. Carpenter explained to me, our sun is 73 percent hydrogen. And when that hydrogen fuses, 99.3 percent of it becomes helium. The rest is converted into raw energy according to Einstein’s famous equation, E=mc2. That’s a small percentage, but more than enough. “If all the hydrogen in the Sun were to be fused into helium,” Carpenter told me, “The energy equivalent of this [would be] 8.7 x 10^44 Joules.”

[Highlord Laan]

I should point out that on a meta level having Kylo Ren be a Vader wannabe is just perfect. Any villain they created was going to be compared to Vader, and with the exception of like 3 people in Hollywood no one would be able to create a character to match, let alone surpass, the iconic power and sheer presence of Darth Vader.

So if your villain is going to be called a Vader knockoff no matter what, make him an actual Vader knockoff and tie that into his character development. It is a brilliant way to sidestep the problem while adding weight to the new character at the same time.

This kind of ties into what I hope happens in the next installment. I hope that Kylo is a spoiler. That he truly believes himself to be some grand Dark Lord and return from training at the feet of Snoke to take his "rightful place," after being built up by his own scenes and parts into someone menacing and powerful...


..only to get completely, utterly, one-sided ROFLstomped by Luke. To the point of Luke looking a bit like a bastard for how firmly he is stamping that bootprint on Kylo's ass. Broken and thrown aside by The Jedi Master as a contemptible sideshow to facing down Snoke, who it turns out actually is a Dark Lord worthy of the name that was using his wannabe apprentice and the laughable First Order as a smokescreen.

Cue Rey and Finn rebuilding Ben Solo as a human being in preparation for facing Snoke and the new Sith.

Is there another term for "sanitation department worker" I should have used from my thesaurus instead?

Well, to be honest. If I heard a soldier, let alone one that had been brainwashed into being an unthinking killer, say "sanitation" was his assigned duty, I would in no way think he mopped floors and emptied trash bins. "Sanitizing" an area of operation (read: leaving no witnesses) is not entirely unheard of.

[The Romulan Republic]

I wouldn't call the First Order "laughable". Sure, they have their moments of weakness (the pathetically easy to escape and disarm star ship Poe and Finn fled comes to mind, as does the poor security around the shields on Starkiller Base). However, the Starkiller Base is genuinely impressive, Snoke is evidently a capable mastermind, and their ground troops and tie fighters seem far better equipped in at least some ways, and more competent in terms of personnel, than what we saw from the Empire. I also appreciate that they're willing to cut their losses and retreat when things go against them, rather than futiley fighting to the death. Thrawn would approve, I believe.

No, they don't have the near-unchallenged galactic dominance of the Empire, but neither do their opponents, and they've done a lot with what they have.

As to Ren... his problem, quite simply, is his state of mind. He is clearly powerful with the Force and skilled, but he's conflicted and self-doubting. Remember the exchange from Empire Strikes Back?

"I don't believe it."

"That is why you fail."

He'll be a lot more dangerous if he gets past that, I think.

Still, I wouldn't expect him to beat Master Luke.