The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

[VT-16]

Hahaha, PPOR, is what I say to that. Do keep grasping at straws, though. It's highly amusing.

[Ender]

You know what's really hilarious? Even if we assume the nonsense in Odds is 100% accurate, i.e. that the average factory only produced 2730 droids per day (996,125 per year)- taking a bare minimum of 2,000,000 factories (millions of factories) works out to 5.5 billion droids of all types produced per day.

Goddamn that's funny. Three million clones. Yeah, sure.

Of course, we know Odds is utter garbage, so combined with the lower limit for millions of factories, it's extremely, extremely over-generous.

Multiply that by 15 for the total. the NEGD says that Baktoid and others were producing battledroids for a decade and a half before the end of the cloe wars. 82.5 billion droids.

Quotes tomorrow, I'm at work on duty today.

[Master of Ossus]

You know what's really hilarious? Even if we assume the nonsense in Odds is 100% accurate, i.e. that the average factory only produced 2730 droids per day (996,125 per year)- taking a bare minimum of 2,000,000 factories (millions of factories) works out to 5.5 billion droids of all types produced per day.

Goddamn that's funny. Three million clones. Yeah, sure.

Of course, we know Odds is utter garbage, so combined with the lower limit for millions of factories, it's extremely, extremely over-generous.

Multiply that by 15 for the total. the NEGD says that Baktoid and others were producing battledroids for a decade and a half before the end of the cloe wars. 82.5 billion droids.

Quotes tomorrow, I'm at work on duty today.

Actually, you need to multiply by 5475--Vympel was reporting on the number of droids produced per day. That gives us 3.0E13. Not quite in the "quadrillions" range, but certainly making quadrillions plausible since these are with VERY conservative figures for the number of droids per factory produced.

Also, where are people claiming that ODDS was written after NEGD even though NEGD was published later?

[Mange]

You know what's really hilarious? Even if we assume the nonsense in Odds is 100% accurate, i.e. that the average factory only produced 2730 droids per day (996,125 per year)- taking a bare minimum of 2,000,000 factories (millions of factories) works out to 5.5 billion droids of all types produced per day.

Goddamn that's funny. Three million clones. Yeah, sure.

Of course, we know Odds is utter garbage, so combined with the lower limit for millions of factories, it's extremely, extremely over-generous.

Multiply that by 15 for the total. the NEGD says that Baktoid and others were producing battledroids for a decade and a half before the end of the cloe wars. 82.5 billion droids.

Quotes tomorrow, I'm at work on duty today.

Actually, you need to multiply by 5475--Vympel was reporting on the number of droids produced per day. That gives us 3.0E13. Not quite in the "quadrillions" range, but certainly making quadrillions plausible since these are with VERY conservative figures for the number of droids per factory produced.

Shouldn't it be in the quintillions range?

Also, where are people claiming that ODDS was written after NEGD even though NEGD was published later?

In the Odds thread over at TFN: +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... /p80/?1997

[Jim Raynor]

Shouldn't it be in the quintillions range?

Yes, it should be. Using 51 million inhabited worlds (1 million members, 50 million colonies, according to WEG), and assuming an extremely conservative average population of 3 billion each, the galaxy would have a population of 153 quadrillion. A droid army numbering in the low quadrillions could be matched, or even exceeded if the Republic resorted to a simple draft. That doesn't match the descriptions of battledroid swarms being used as cannon fodder against a badly outnumbered Republic.

Saxton knew what he was talking about when he said there were quintillions of battledroids. While I would take quadrillions over Traviss's retarded hundred million any day, I find it slightly annoying that the "sensible" number of droids has been unknowingly lowered by several orders of magnitude. Some of the better EU sources carelessly state quadrillions, Traviss treats quadrillions like some impossibly big number in Odds, and all of a sudden some of us are arguing for mere quadrillions. It's quintillions, people!

Also, where are people claiming that ODDS was written after NEGD even though NEGD was published later?

In the Odds thread over at TFN: +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... /p80/?1997

Wow. Just when you think you've killed their last lameass excuse, they come up with another one.

[VT-16]

It's quintillions, people!

Durrrr, how can that be possible, there's no source that says the CIS had that much time or resources to build them!!?!?!?!?!??!?!!? I use calculator to add up!!!!!!![/Dark Shit]

[Ender]

24 factory worlds ("dozens"), call each factory 1 square km, and 2 million other factories. Each as 3 lines, making 1 droid per second for 15 years amounts to a total of 17.6 quintillion droids.

Dan Wallace FTW.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I know its been argued many, many times, but is there a generally accepted population number for city-worlds like Coruscant? Those would really pump up the galactic population.

[Connor MacLeod]

has anyone bothered to actaully look at Jedi Trial and its take on the whole Praestilyn battle? I know someone on TFN mentioned that, but I believe that in alot of ways its another source suggesting the 3 million figures are rather absurd.

[President Sharky]

The wikipedia article on the battle is mostly written by me, it goes into the details of the battle fairly in-depth. I find Jedi Trial somewhat more on the maximalist side, seeing as the CIS committed over 200 warships and 1 million droids to an unpopulated desert planet that had only one installation of note.

[Lord Poe]

Oh, but didn't you know? The NEGTD was "written before Odds". That's the 'defense' against the NEGTD.

Well, won't they be surprised when they have to bend over, spread their cheeks, and accept the fact that the Complete ICS comes out next year?

[Vympel]

Unless, of course, they try and change the text. Which I don't think is permitted without the author's consent, surely?

[Connor MacLeod]

Traviss doesn't pay any attention to other author's works anyhow, so what does it matter?

This makes me wonder how her collaboration with Allston and Denning will work out. I think it will be rather hilarious if her works end up being discordandtly different from the stuff they write.

[Connor MacLeod]

The wikipedia article on the battle is mostly written by me, it goes into the details of the battle fairly in-depth. I find Jedi Trial somewhat more on the maximalist side, seeing as the CIS committed over 200 warships and 1 million droids to an unpopulated desert planet that had only one installation of note.

Uh, I wouldn't go that far. Its nice, the same way Wallace's stuff is nice, but its hardly the "Pro-Saxton" type attitude. The fact is is that the novel still has tens of thousands of clones (rather than hundreds of thousands or maybe millions.. that's more the Clone Wars shorts.)

The reason I consider Jedi Trial noteworthy is because of how they portray the deployment of 50,000 troops by Slayke against the million+ droid army, or the way that 20,000 clones (used to Garrison one of Coruscant's moons) is not considered a "standard" troop deployment but rather as the only available troops they have to send into a situation - (an emergency reserve, as it were, and only then to support/assist the forces already there.

There is also the fact that the Separatist commander occupying Praestilyn demanded that Dooku send more reinforcements to assist him (Evidently 1 million battle droids was not enough.) There was the fact that the original garrision had at least 50,000 troops (more numerous than the decoy Tonith deployed before wiping out the Garrison) yet the General commanding the Garrison insisted he needed more troops to defend Praestilyn. There's the fact that Slayke and others knew and felt that while 50,000 troops would be enough to disrupt and hamper the Separatist forces, it wouldn't be enough to decisively beat them (barring a miracle, which IIRC basically happened.

like a number of other sources (Clone wars and otherwise), its blatantly OBVIOUS that massive numbers of troops would be needed to wage wars across hundreds or thousands of worlds. But what do you expect? Traviss ignores such mundane details as deploying thousnads of regiments in the ROTS novel, that according to WOTC the Republic ordered 1000 more Acclamators after Geonosis, that the Clone Wars micro series showed individual Jeid commanders frequently commanding multiple acclamators (half a dozen to a dozen in some cases, or dozens in others.) There's the fact that in her own novel Hard Contact that the Clone Army deployed to Geonosis suffered substantial casualties in the battle, despite the fact that hey had better support than the Separatists. And, of course, there's the NEGtD...

[Master of Ossus]

Nice of them to lock the thread as soon as virtually indisputable evidence appeared of KT's idiocy (NEGtD).

[FTeik]

Nice of them to lock the thread as soon as virtually indisputable evidence appeared of KT's idiocy (NEGtD).

See, you can have a rational POV (i don't say maximalist, because then i would claim that there were billions of ISDs) in the SW-EU. Your name just shouldn't be Curtis Saxton.

[Mange]

Nice of them to lock the thread as soon as virtually indisputable evidence appeared of KT's idiocy (NEGtD).

Isn't the "Guide to the Grand Army" thread still open?

[Ender]

Nice of them to lock the thread as soon as virtually indisputable evidence appeared of KT's idiocy (NEGtD).

Isn't the "Guide to the Grand Army" thread still open?

Indeed, and I'm bumping it with the following information

The New Essential Guide to Droids is written in universe, but it is post NJO and reveals a number of Lord Sidious' secrets, indicating that by this time all has been declassified.

...during the clone Wars, the Geonosian workers of Baktoid Combat Automata built one of the largest mechanical armies ever seen

Speaks for itself

The Seperatists fielded a military made up almost exclusively of droids. The sheer number and variety of Seperatist war droids was unprecedented in galactic history. Droids dominated water, land, air, and outer space in forms such as the manta droid subfighter, the dwarf spider droid, the HMP droid gunship, and the vulture droid starfighter.

That the army was almost exclusively droids eliminates the idea the conscripts made up most of the fighting forces on both sides.

Of the millions of droid manufacturing plants in the galaxy, the two lagest are Mechis III and Telti, which together produce a sizable percentage of all new automata. Both locations are entire worlds covered with sprawlingconstruction facilities and fully automated assembly lines; any sentient interaction in the fabrication process otehr than the most minimal supervision is unnecessary and counterproductive.

Millions of factories in the galaxy. As in, between 2,000,000 and 999,999,999. That the Confederacy would control a sizable share of them is far more likely then the idea that they had so few that 47 factories serve as a representative sample. That's not even counting the "mechworlds", of which the largest were Mechis III and Telti.

No longer in existance, Baktoid Combat Automata (a sister company to Baktoid Armor Workshop) cranked out innumerable droids for the Trade Federation and the Confederacy of Independent Systems in the decade and a half leading up to the conclusion of the Clone Wars. As a member of the Techno Union, Baktoid had access to the galaxies best equipment, and its factories on Geonosis and hundreds of other worlds could mass-produce battle droids in uncountable numbers.

Baktoid alone had hundreds of factories, to say nothing of the other compaines that made up the Techno Union and other factions. And they were building constantly for 15 years. Finally, terms such as "inumerable" and "uncountable" hardly mesh with "100 million".

Prior to the rise of the Empire, the Tecnho Union was the galaxy's greatest conglomeration of high-tech manufacturers, with members including Baktoid Combat Automata. Headed by foreman Wat Tambor, the Techno Union controlled dozens of "mechworlds," from Foundary to Metalorn, that were dominated by smoke, fire, and machinery. Anakin Skywalker killed Wat Tambor on Mustafar, and Imperial officials nationalized the Techno Union soon after.

The Techno Union had "dozens", as in at least 24, planets covered in factories. That's an insane production capacity. And it doesn't even count the independent factories.

Once ubiquitous on worlds belonging to the Confederacy of Independent Systems, battle droids (also called war droids or combat droids) practically disappeared after the rise of the Empire.

They were prolific enough that they were everywhere on the worlds controlled by the Confederacy. As the Commerce Guild alone had millions of worlds (see below), and 100 things on a world is anything but ubiquitous, Odds has a real hard time fitting into continuity.

During the Clone Wars, super battle droids became the face of the Confederacy of Independent Systems on thousands of worlds, from Ando to Vandos.

Again, the Confederacy deployed these things in defense of their worlds so liberally it isn't funny.

The new ultra battle droid was huge and expensive, Baktoid entertained no illusions about the droid being deployed in numberless hordes, like the B1 and B2, but the company hoped to add the selectively as heavy hitters to the arsenel of every Seperatist commander

Again supports the notion presented in "Lord of War" that the sheer number of droids available is insane.

The greedy Commerce Guild had its fingers in millions of mining operations across the galaxy, and constantly hungered for new mineral strikes.

We've seen from Bespin and Jabiim that a mining opeation is usually world wide run from a single operations center, not each and every mine. So that's millions of worlds for the Commerce Guidl alone, to say nothing of the other factions and the independents.

While assault ships shelled Colla IV's surface with a turbolaser bombardment, four platoons of troopers advanced on the shielded factory. When the clones reached the innermost wall, an annihilator droid rose up and shredded a duracrete barrier with its laser cannons, offering the clones no cover and killing most of the landing force within minutes. The surviving clones retreated.
...
"We don't know what it was, sir, but it took out three platoons. We can't let the Colicoids get these things offplanet." -ARC trooper Stec, after a failed strike at Colla IV

4 platoons of ARC troopers deployed as a spec ops mission get killed by a single droid. Testament to the droid, but also raises the issue of how 96 ARCs out of 128 can die if there are only 100 ARCs total. Unless there are more then 100 ARCs total and only 100 of the Alpha series.

At the end of the Clone Wars, the Republic siezed tens of thousands of crab droids from a Techno Union factory on Tar Morden.

This is during the outer rim sieges, so they weren't being deployed elsehwere. And it says they siezed, so they were finished, not half complete. That means that a single factory had 20,000+ of one kind of droid (ignoring all the other kinds of droids that might have been present as well) defending it. And there are millions of factories out there. That's tens of billions of droids only playing defense.

What's real fun is the math. We see in AotC that droids are built at a rate of ~1 per sec. There are 3 lines in a factory. Lets say a factory is 1 square kilometer (a gross overestimate). 24 worlds with Earth sized diameter plus 2 million other factories each with 3 lines producing at that rate for 15 years yields a total of 17.67 quintillion droids. Which (depending on casualties, logistics, and naval crewing requirements) matches the numbers in Lord of War, Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic, and the Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections.

[Mange]

Damn, those are great quotes, Ender! I'd like to put them before a certain Moose...

[apocolypse]

Well I'll be. Sounds like one of the Essential Guides managed to get it right for once. I had wondered about picking it up, but it seems like this one is worth it.

[Alan Bolte]

While assault ships shelled Colla IV's surface with a turbolaser bombardment, four platoons of troopers advanced on the shielded factory. When the clones reached the innermost wall, an annihilator droid rose up and shredded a duracrete barrier with its laser cannons, offering the clones no cover and killing most of the landing force within minutes. The surviving clones retreated.
...
"We don't know what it was, sir, but it took out three platoons. We can't let the Colicoids get these things offplanet." -ARC trooper Stec, after a failed strike at Colla IV

4 platoons of ARC troopers deployed as a spec ops mission get killed by a single droid. Testament to the droid, but also raises the issue of how 96 ARCs out of 128 can die if there are only 100 ARCs total. Unless there are more then 100 ARCs total and only 100 of the Alpha series.

Am I missing some context here? IIRC, in Clone Wars cartoon out of multiple Acclamators' complements of troops deployed we see only a handful of ARC troopers, so there's no reason to assume that the four platoons consisted entirely of ARC troopers, but rather we might at most have a full squad deployed, none of whom were necessarily killed.

[Ender]

While assault ships shelled Colla IV's surface with a turbolaser bombardment, four platoons of troopers advanced on the shielded factory. When the clones reached the innermost wall, an annihilator droid rose up and shredded a duracrete barrier with its laser cannons, offering the clones no cover and killing most of the landing force within minutes. The surviving clones retreated.
...
"We don't know what it was, sir, but it took out three platoons. We can't let the Colicoids get these things offplanet." -ARC trooper Stec, after a failed strike at Colla IV

4 platoons of ARC troopers deployed as a spec ops mission get killed by a single droid. Testament to the droid, but also raises the issue of how 96 ARCs out of 128 can die if there are only 100 ARCs total. Unless there are more then 100 ARCs total and only 100 of the Alpha series.

Am I missing some context here? IIRC, in Clone Wars cartoon out of multiple Acclamators' complements of troops deployed we see only a handful of ARC troopers, so there's no reason to assume that the four platoons consisted entirely of ARC troopers, but rather we might at most have a full squad deployed, none of whom were necessarily killed.

We never see ARCs in command (they are advisers to Jedi who are in command) and the Republic habitually sends spec ops to take out factories, not regular troops.


And it starts. First off the bat- LtNOWIS who seeks to dismiss all those factories because civillain droid productiona dn battle droid production are not the same.

[Noble Ire]

We never see ARCs in command (they are advisers to Jedi who are in command) and the Republic habitually sends spec ops to take out factories, not regular troops.

ARCs seem to serve in a great many roles. Indeed, I can recall sources that state that they almost always work alone, and yet we see them in a commando team during the CW cartoon. Additionally, since Colla IV was being shelled at the time of the attack, it seems likely that there was a full-scale battle going on. If that was the case, the four platoons might have simply been marching on whatever city or facility the factory was in (as suggested by the word "advancing", as opposed to something that would suggeest a more covert move), seen that the thing was on the priority targets list, and decided to take it out.

Of course, I prefer the explanation that there were more than one hundred ARCs. The number seemed too low, anyways. Still, that must have been one hell of a battle droid.

And it starts. First off the bat- LtNOWIS who seeks to dismiss all those factories because civillain droid productiona dn battle droid production are not the same.

What a moron. I suppose he doesn't realize how much of the USA's civilian manufacturing capability was given over to the war effort during World War Two.

[Ender]

Of course, I prefer the explanation that there were more than one hundred ARCs. The number seemed too low, anyways. Still, that must have been one hell of a battle droid.

Thing a destroyer droid with starfighter grade cannons instead of medium blasters. Huge refire rate, personal shield, etc. The things were only made in a short production run apparently, but they demolished tanks like no tomorrow before going down.

What a moron. I suppose he doesn't realize how much of the USA's civilian manufacturing capability was given over to the war effort during World War Two.

I made that exact point.

[VT-16]

What a moron. I suppose he doesn't realize how much of the USA's civilian manufacturing capability was given over to the war effort during World War Two.

When I see people accepting that the galaxy-spanning GAR would only be a fraction of the troops who fought in WWII and not find that strange, I'm not surprised idiotic posts like that pop up.