Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[ray245]

I freely admit that I'm guilty of intense prequel hatred. What amuses me is that you seem to think I'm something of a rarity.

I don't care if you are rare or common. It's not a popularity contest.

[Galvatron]

Are you kidding? It's ALL about popularity. You can appeal to their tepid critical reception and all the money that they duped the masses into spending on admission tickets, but you're delusional if you think that Disney's current marketing campaign isn't tacitly distancing The Force Awakens from the prequels due to their lack of popularity.

Disney's Solution to the Problem of the Star Wars Prequels

The Mouse’s strategy for selling fans on the sequel trilogy is as much about distancing itself from the prequels as it is about reinforcing its ties to the original trilogy. Everyone involved in the new Star Wars projects, from J.J. Abrams to Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy and numerous other cast and crew members, have talked our ear off about the emphasis on practical effects, minimal CGI, authentic props and costumes. It’s not enough that the original three leads are returning. Disney wants to assure us that its blue milk came from the same cows as the original trilogy.

And it’s hard to blame Disney for adopting such a logical approach. Even though the prequels represented George Lucas’ unfiltered vision for Star Wars, it’s not one that the fans necessarily agreed with. The films have been universally derided since the moment they’ve hit theaters, and they’ve attracted plenty of vitriol toward the actors and actresses involved.

Go ahead, deny it all you want. Reality doesn't care if you believe it.

[Adam Reynolds]

Go ahead, deny it all you want. Reality doesn't care if you believe it.

While I don't disagree with you in terms of the idea that the prequels were not the equal of the originals and that a larger reason why was that there was far less dissent in the prequels when compared to the originals, the prequels are not universally derided. Transformers 2+ is a better example of this phenomenon.

[Galvatron]

I agree that "universally derided" is an exaggeration, but it's not that far off. Widely derided would be more accurate, IMO.

[ray245]

I agree that "universally derided" is an exaggeration, but it's not that far off. Widely derided would be more accurate, IMO.

Then how did ROTS made all its money from if the prequels were as hated as you imagine them to be? What about the fact that ROTS had a fresh rating on Rotten tomatoes?

But hey, all those doesn't matter because only the opinions on the Internet matters!

[The Romulan Republic]

I think the basics of what happened with the Prequels are very simple.

Rabid fans with agendas and nostalgia. When the new films inevitably weren't what those fans expected, because they had been made by different people in a different time than the OT, those fans shrilly insisted that they were this horrible abomination, when in fact they were merely mediocre.

And in their arrogance, said fans simply couldn't accept that their opinion was not so self-evidently correct that every person on Earth must agree with them.

Box office numbers don't matter. Ratings don't matter. Only their bitterness that their unrealistic expectations were not met.

By the way, I fully expect that a lot of those same fans will have a similar reaction to the new films, and already decided that the moment the new films were announced. Though perhaps it won't happen as much because their egos have been sufficiently stroked with all the references to the OT in the new film.

Edit: I know I sound rather bitter over this, but God damn, this kind of whining from rabid fans gets tiresome.

[Galvatron]

I agree that "universally derided" is an exaggeration, but it's not that far off. Widely derided would be more accurate, IMO.

Then how did ROTS made all its money from if the prequels were as hated as you imagine them to be? What about the fact that ROTS had a fresh rating on Rotten tomatoes?

But hey, all those doesn't matter because only the opinions on the Internet matters!

What point are you trying to make? Did anyone deny that the prequels made money or that they had their share of positive reviews?

Edit: I know I sound rather bitter over this, but God damn, this kind of whining from rabid fans gets tiresome.

Agreed. They can really be some soft-shouldered bitches, can't they?

[Joun_Lord]

I agree that "universally derided" is an exaggeration, but it's not that far off. Widely derided would be more accurate, IMO.

Widely derided by critics looking to dick ride the Prequel hate to show how cool and hip they be and fans who can't handle change, sure. By the wider viewing audience who don't give a shit about fatty nerds flapping their manboobs on the internet and people who grew up with the Prequels, probably not.

As in all things the domain of the nerd as we've been learning the loud jackasses whining about it tend to be a very vocal, very whiny, very annoying, very manboobed minority. The same people bitching aboot the Prequels sucking and being failures because they say so are the same ones who whine about Call of Duty being shit or the Transformers movies not being popular or the Ninja Turtles reboot with the horrifying turtles would fail. However the Prequels weren't financial failures by any means, Carl on Duty is one of the highest selling game franchises despite its lack of Steve Erkel, Transformers is still going strong and making stupid amounts of money, and Ninja Turtles did well and was well liked by kids who somehow didn't find the horrifying turtles horrifying.

The same nerds who say all that shit are the same one wondering why their niche nerd shows continuously fail. Shows like Firefly, Dollhouse, Jericho, Fargate Universe, Chuck, and Arrested Development all were lauded by nerds but all received low ratings and low viewer numbers. Turns out the nerds who send in peanuts and do campaigns and make it known on Livespace and Myblr how these shows are teh awesomeness and teh best evar aren't as powerful or as large in numbers (though they are quite large in girth) as they think they are.

Just because some fatty nerd on the net says something is good doesn't mean its actually considered good by the wider and skinnier audience. And just because some rotund geek says a show sucks teh ballz doesn't mean the larger (in numbers) viewing audience agrees with them.

And I am one of those fatty nerds too. I loved those shows (except Stargate Universe and Arrested Development and have yet to watch Dollhouse) and think Call of Duty is mostly shit (I kinda liked the Black Ops campaigns though), Transformers is crap, and the Ninja Turtles being the shitty April O'Neal show guest starring some horrifying roided out mutant monstrosities. But I'm self aware enough to know my opinions no matter how right they might be are not shared by the majority of people. When it comes to my taste in games, movies, tv shows, and music I'm part of a very loud but very small....in numbers minority.

The hate of the Prequels is done by that minority and like everything else its an opinion that is nowhere near universal.

[Galvatron]

Yes. It's our "minority" that Disney is catering to. You've got it all figured out.

[Joun_Lord]

Yes. It's our "minority" that Disney is catering to. You've got it all figured out.

Well they are catering to them. And of course I got it fingered out, I'm a nerd and know everything and am always right.

The majority is going to watch Star Wars either way whether its crap or not and probably enjoy it enough to not complain. Its Star Wars, its a public tradition that nearly everyone is going to go watch. Thats money in the bank for Disney no matter what.

They can count on the money from the hardcore fatties too but they cannot count on the good press. Its Star Wars, its their obsession. An obsession they will look for any fault or defect, any reason to whine, any reason to say this sucks and its bad and you should feel bad. Critics will echo those sentiments to stay hip with the nerds and have nerd cred. The problem of bad word of mouth is even worse then it was for the Prequels with social media being heavily dominant.

Disney isn't worried about Star Wars failing financially but failing critically. TFA could bee two hours of Jar Jar masturbating at the camera and still be profitable. But to be a critical success they need to appeal to the loud nerds, they need to show they are listening to them unlike George Evil Lucas, that they are doing what the nerds want. If they can win over the hardcore nerds and wilt their nerdrage boners then they can win over the critics and, unlike the Prequels, be considered good by the nerds and critics. It might help them some financially but will certainly help them in the press when even the notoriously fickle nerds are on their side.

[The Romulan Republic]

Past experience tells me that that may be a lost cause, though I'll admit the hostility towards the film is somewhat... muted thus far.

[ray245]

Yes. It's our "minority" that Disney is catering to. You've got it all figured out.

Which is exactly why your argument has no actual weight.

[Elfdart]

Jesus ass fucking Christ the George Lucas hate was strong in that Honest Trailer. I can understand the Prequel from old fogies who think anything new is bad same as I can understand the OT hate from youngsters who think anything old is bad, but the level of vitriol by "fans" of Star Wars towards it creator is mindboggling. They don't just seem to dislike some of the shit he did, they seem to hate him, hate everything he touched beyond the OT and like to make excuses that they only reason they were good was his wife and people like Kasdan. They think other people know Star Wars better then the guy who created, some demented motherfuckers even try to say he didn't create it.

You would think from the response of some people Lucas really did go in their house and erase their old SW tapes and rape them considering how angry some people are at him and any changes he made.

Just another reason why Star Wars fans really piss me off sometimes. I mean even Trekkies don't hold hate for Roddenberry despite him doing some pretty shitty things both on and off set.

In the past I've compared these "fans" to Mark David Chapman, for obvious reasons. They really have made it unpleasant to be a fan of the series. Any time an article is posted on mainstream sites about Star Wars -whether it's about the new movie, the toys, or even some little kid dressing up his dog like Chewbacca- you can count on it being spammed up by Stoklassholes spewing incoherent abuse at George Lucas and/or linking to hour-long YouTube videos by a creep who thinks abducting and mutilating women in his basement is "edgy" comedy.

This sort of "fan" is the Star Wars version of the kind of loudmouthed, belligerent racist drunk who has become all too common at NFL games, and a reason I've avoided them for the last few years.

[Elfdart]

If you've read anything about the making of ANH and TESB, you'd know that there were PLENTY of people disagreeing with George back then. That creative tension resulted in a better product. George even admitted that TESB was better than he wanted it to be.

Care to give examples? Start with ANH, if you would please.

I admit that ANH would not have existed without George.

That's awfully big of you.

TESB might have been just fine without him, but I think Kershner might have given us a slower movie.

So who, exactly was going to create the characters and story other than George Lucas? Gary Kurtz, who contributed zilch to the creative side of any movie he's credited with? Irvin Kershner, who never made a movie that wasn't based on someone else's work? Lawrence Kasdan, who has never done anything novel, let alone original? The studio? Yes, let's make Lucas vanish and put it in the hands of 20th Century Fox, letting suits make the creative decisions.

You'd have had a new Star Wars movie every six months with Scott Baio as Luke's streetwise cousin, and Frank Stallone singing.

[Elfdart]

I think the basics of what happened with the Prequels are very simple.

Rabid fans with agendas and nostalgia. When the new films inevitably weren't what those fans expected, because they had been made by different people in a different time than the OT, those fans shrilly insisted that they were this horrible abomination, when in fact they were merely mediocre.

And in their arrogance, said fans simply couldn't accept that their opinion was not so self-evidently correct that every person on Earth must agree with them.

Box office numbers don't matter. Ratings don't matter. Only their bitterness that their unrealistic expectations were not met.

By the way, I fully expect that a lot of those same fans will have a similar reaction to the new films, and already decided that the moment the new films were announced. Though perhaps it won't happen as much because their egos have been sufficiently stroked with all the references to the OT in the new film.

Edit: I know I sound rather bitter over this, but God damn, this kind of whining from rabid fans gets tiresome.

It's like when an old band gets back together, but their new music isn't just like the old stuff. Most reasonably well-adjusted fans, even if they don't like the new material, are just glad to see the band back together and hear the old songs get played again. Other fans might lose interest in the band entirely if the band changes so much that it no longer sounds anything like the old group.

Then there are the schmucks who nurse a raging hate-on against the band for not catering to their every desire. Jefferson Starship had the perfect response in Stairway to Cleveland:

hey we gotta a new band - a new face - a new time!
sing a song of rock & roll & drive us all crazy
people tell me everything I need to know about
rock & roll
politics n' all about our new band
but some people never happy "don't like it" - "didn't see it" oh oh
they had to make a comment!

...

New York - L.A. times rock & roll magazines, said we couldn't make it
but here we go again on rock and roll radio, rock and roll radio,
people tell me everything I need to hear about what we need, what we
got, what we're never gonna get

old singers gone away - whatcha gonna do about it? gold records rock &
roll n' why dontcha sound like you used to in '65? '69? '75?
everybody stand up, they got to make a comment, critics said they'll
never make it, never make it, never never never never never never never
never never!

fuck you! we do what we want!

[Galvatron]

If you've read anything about the making of ANH and TESB, you'd know that there were PLENTY of people disagreeing with George back then. That creative tension resulted in a better product. George even admitted that TESB was better than he wanted it to be.

Care to give examples? Start with ANH, if you would please.

Nah, I'm done with you. You have a long history of selectively ignoring any quotes or examples I post after you ask for them, so you can go ahead and fuck your own face.

[The Romulan Republic]

I agree that "universally derided" is an exaggeration, but it's not that far off. Widely derided would be more accurate, IMO.

Widely derided by critics looking to dick ride the Prequel hate to show how cool and hip they be and fans who can't handle change, sure. By the wider viewing audience who don't give a shit about fatty nerds flapping their manboobs on the internet and people who grew up with the Prequels, probably not.

As in all things the domain of the nerd as we've been learning the loud jackasses whining about it tend to be a very vocal, very whiny, very annoying, very manboobed minority. The same people bitching aboot the Prequels sucking and being failures because they say so are the same ones who whine about Call of Duty being shit or the Transformers movies not being popular or the Ninja Turtles reboot with the horrifying turtles would fail. However the Prequels weren't financial failures by any means, Carl on Duty is one of the highest selling game franchises despite its lack of Steve Erkel, Transformers is still going strong and making stupid amounts of money, and Ninja Turtles did well and was well liked by kids who somehow didn't find the horrifying turtles horrifying.

The same nerds who say all that shit are the same one wondering why their niche nerd shows continuously fail. Shows like Firefly, Dollhouse, Jericho, Fargate Universe, Chuck, and Arrested Development all were lauded by nerds but all received low ratings and low viewer numbers. Turns out the nerds who send in peanuts and do campaigns and make it known on Livespace and Myblr how these shows are teh awesomeness and teh best evar aren't as powerful or as large in numbers (though they are quite large in girth) as they think they are.

Just because some fatty nerd on the net says something is good doesn't mean its actually considered good by the wider and skinnier audience. And just because some rotund geek says a show sucks teh ballz doesn't mean the larger (in numbers) viewing audience agrees with them.

And I am one of those fatty nerds too. I loved those shows (except Stargate Universe and Arrested Development and have yet to watch Dollhouse) and think Call of Duty is mostly shit (I kinda liked the Black Ops campaigns though), Transformers is crap, and the Ninja Turtles being the shitty April O'Neal show guest starring some horrifying roided out mutant monstrosities. But I'm self aware enough to know my opinions no matter how right they might be are not shared by the majority of people. When it comes to my taste in games, movies, tv shows, and music I'm part of a very loud but very small....in numbers minority.

The hate of the Prequels is done by that minority and like everything else its an opinion that is nowhere near universal.

While I feel that hatred of the Prequels is absurdly overblown at times, I also would like to point out that you're basically engaging in an Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Perhaps an Appeal to profitability fallacy, if their is such a thing.

Also, I hate it when people use "nerd" as an insult or perpetuate stereotypes about nerds. Especially when they do it while posting on a site like this.

[Joun_Lord]

While I feel that hatred of the Prequels is absurdly overblown at times, I also would like to point out that you're basically engaging in an Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Perhaps an Appeal to profitability fallacy, if their is such a thing.

Also, I hate it when people use "nerd" as an insult or perpetuate stereotypes about nerds. Especially when they do it while posting on a site like this.

Well in this case the appeal to popularity does work. People say things like the Prequels, Transformers, Cod are all sucky, hated by everyone, and all that when clearly they are at the very least well liked enough to be incredibly popular even discounting the impossible to pin down variant of something being good. Popularity isn't really an indicator of somethings artistic worth but shirley it shows most people don't think something is sucky. I mean I think Justin Bieber sucks bawls and his music is akin to the tortured screeching of the restless dead tormented by nails on a chalk board and Justin Bieber music but he is ridiculously popular so alot of people must think his shite is good even if I don't.

And I wasn't really using nerd as an insult but more the fatty nerd as popularized by Flagg I think. When people act like the stereotype of the fatty nerd who thinks anything they hate is hated by everyone because they spend all their time in echo chamber circle jerks, when they think anything new is bad, they changed it therefore it sucks, when they think they know better then the great unwashed masses what is good, and when they act like douchey douches they deserve to be insulted and derided because they give other nerds who don't act like obsessive basement dwellers a bad rep.

Like I said, I'm quite the nerd myself (as it should be obvious with me posting here) but I usually ain't full on fatty nerd (despite having the tits for it) like the obsessive Prequel haters and the like. I've had my moments (anything to do with Karen Traviss gets my boobs a' flappin') mind you but not so bad as the Prequel haters.

[Lord Revan]

The problem with alot of prequel haters is that they're comparing the PT to the version of the OT they have in their mind so of course it's not compare favorbly, hell the actual OT is not gonna compare favorbly as it still has the bad parts of those movies while the mental version has tuned those out while making the cool parts cooler.

That's why at least 99.9% of the "fixed" versions of the PT you find in fan fics suck, they either create something that's utterly unfilmble, have poor characterization as in even worse then the actual PT, are strings of "cool" actions scenes with no rime or reason or any combination of above.

One of the worse possible miss characterizations I can think of is to have Anakin Skywalker act like Darth Vader from the get go, or more specifically acting like the image of Vader they have in their mind. I might be the heretic here but I actually liked that Anakin didn't act like Darth Vader from the OT in the PT even after he was given the "mantle" of Darth Vader, while the actual execution could have been done better, it actually makes Vader a better character in my opinion to have him be a broken man paying for the arrogance of his youth, it adds depth to him.

now to steer this conversation back to TFA, I wonder what will be Kylo Ren's connection to Vader, just fanboy or something more.

[Galvatron]

One of the worse possible miss characterizations I can think of is to have Anakin Skywalker act like Darth Vader from the get go, or more specifically acting like the image of Vader they have in their mind. I might be the heretic here but I actually liked that Anakin didn't act like Darth Vader from the OT in the PT even after he was given the "mantle" of Darth Vader, while the actual execution could have been done better, it actually makes Vader a better character in my opinion to have him be a broken man paying for the arrogance of his youth, it adds depth to him.

I prefer the TCW version of Anakin over the live-action one. Funny how they're both canon and yet seem so different.

now to steer this conversation back to TFA, I wonder what will be Kylo Ren's connection to Vader, just fanboy or something more.

The obvious answer is grandson. That's what I'm assuming, but I also expect a twist that they hope will shock us as much as TESB did.

[Adam Reynolds]

I prefer the TCW version of Anakin over the live-action one. Funny how they're both canon and yet seem so different.

Frankly I have a hard time believing that version would ever turn to the Dark Side. Despite the fact that it wasn't entirely likable, I preferred the ROTS depiction as it felt closer to what needed to be the case.

The obvious answer is grandson. That's what I'm assuming, but I also expect a twist that they hope will shock us as much as TESB did.

If that is the case, it should logically occur in the second film in the trilogy. Given the choice in director, I suspect that it will be a more character driven piece analogous to TESB. I have to say that I rather like the way the different directors have played out for the ST.

[ray245]

New trailer for TFA.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdAUiyeJMFQ[/youtube]

[Elfdart]

If you've read anything about the making of ANH and TESB, you'd know that there were PLENTY of people disagreeing with George back then. That creative tension resulted in a better product. George even admitted that TESB was better than he wanted it to be.

Care to give examples? Start with ANH, if you would please.

Nah, I'm done with you. You have a long history of selectively ignoring any quotes or examples I post after you ask for them, so you can go ahead and fuck your own face.

I knew you couldn't. Concession accepted.

[Borgholio]

International trailer was released today. Lots of new footage.

Excuse the mess, I have to clean up after having several nerdgasms in a row.

[Prometheus Unbound]

TIEs in the sun looks cool.