Extremely flawed SW military?

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Typo
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Typo »

Bakustra wrote:
That's not quite supported by the film: one of the bridge crew reports "We've lost our bridge deflector shield", so the shield was actually down when the A-wing hit, and the bridge is clearly vulnerable to attack without the shield, as Piett orders intensified firepower around the bridge to keep Rebel ships away.
So, if one Rebel capital warship target the "Executor" bridge, after the shields are down, and hit the bridge the "Executor" is doomed?

That is a capital design flaw! :mrgreen:

By the way, it seems, in the films, that George Lucas, after realised the Empire is too strong, put some stupid flaws in imperial ships (the extreme weakness of the unshielded bridge of the "Executor"), bases (a small torpedo down a small hole is enough to destroy the "Death Star I"), tactics (the Emperor`s order to the fleet to stay quiet in the Endor Battle, and only stop the Rebel to run away) and strategy (the idea that fear is enough to control the planets, when, in reality, only make more people atracted to the Rebels ideals) to give a chance too the good boys...
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Ghost Rider »

Typo wrote:By the way, it seems, in the films, that George Lucas, after realised the Empire is too strong, put some stupid flaws in imperial ships (the extreme weakness of the unshielded bridge of the "Executor"),
You mean after the fleet of capital ships knocked down the shields of the ship? How is that a weakness?
bases (a small torpedo down a small hole is enough to destroy the "Death Star I"),
Which wouldn't been hit unless a Force User got lucky? You do know how close the Empire was to winning, right?
tactics (the Emperor`s order to the fleet to stay quiet in the Endor Battle, and only stop the Rebel to run away)
Because if not for the Rebels getting completely lucky, that shield DSII would've destroyed the fleet.
and strategy (the idea that fear is enough to control the planets, when, in reality, only make more people atracted to the Rebels ideals) to give a chance too the good boys...
When they can destroy ANY world, you fucking better believe fear will keep you in line. Joining the other side means you die, don't collect $200.
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Bakustra
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Bakustra »

Typo wrote:
Bakustra wrote:
That's not quite supported by the film: one of the bridge crew reports "We've lost our bridge deflector shield", so the shield was actually down when the A-wing hit, and the bridge is clearly vulnerable to attack without the shield, as Piett orders intensified firepower around the bridge to keep Rebel ships away.
So, if one Rebel capital warship target the "Executor" bridge, after the shields are down, and hit the bridge the "Executor" is doomed?

That is a capital design flaw! :mrgreen:
Yeah, sure, if you want to think that way, but don't go attributing it to me. Alternately, you could realize that I only said that the bridge is vulnerable with the shield down, and the crew on the bridge might want to protect it so they can, you know, not die. Also, the Executor doesn't actually "die" until it plunges into the DSII, but that's a secret. Don't go spreading it around.
By the way, it seems, in the films, that George Lucas, after realised the Empire is too strong, put some stupid flaws in imperial ships (the extreme weakness of the unshielded bridge of the "Executor"), bases (a small torpedo down a small hole is enough to destroy the "Death Star I"), tactics (the Emperor`s order to the fleet to stay quiet in the Endor Battle, and only stop the Rebel to run away) and strategy (the idea that fear is enough to control the planets, when, in reality, only make more people atracted to the Rebels ideals) to give a chance too the good boys...
Stupid flaws? Okay, did you know that a modern fighter jet would also probably destroy the bridge of an aircraft carrier if it rammed into it? It's true! But I guess that modern ships are just full of stupid flaws, too.

The Death Star has one weak point on a 160-km diameter vessel. That's an incredibly stupid flaw, you're right. I suppose that in the original script, the Death Star was destroyed in a colossal duel of starship against starship, that ended with the Rebel ship turning into MegaMaid and kicking the Death Star into a black hole to score the winning point of the Empire-Rebels space-soccer game.

It couldn't have developed as a deliberate homage to a pair of WWII movies and a reference to the story of David and Goliath, which itself reflects the conflict between the Rebels and the Empire, that's just silly. It's a flaw. The same with the decisions of the Emperor- they cannot be hubris and thus the cause of his downfall, it's just stupidity.

I'm also well aware of Star Wars' status as an outwardly philosophical film about the rise of a popular movement against an unpopular government, though it simultaneously lacks deeper meaning, as a part of the anti-cinema movement. Clearly the idea of ruling through fear is unique to fictional civilizations, as no ruler in human history has ever made use of such an obviously ill-conceived notion.

Okay, enough sarcasm for now.
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Elfdart »

Azron_Stoma wrote:
Elfdart wrote:It's when they're fleeing Bespin in the Falcon. She points to Vader's ship and says "Star Destroyer" (6:02):

Sorry, couldn't find a clip with dialog but she said it.
Wasn't the entire Death Squadron there too?
No, just the Executor.
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Huh, I thought a few stayed with the Executor after the fleet broke up, oh well. Guess I have to watch it again :P

also how about a List of competent Imperials in the Films and EU

I compiled a short list with

Film

Chief Baast,
General Tagge
General Veers
Captain/Admiral Piet
Lieutenant Tanbris
Moff Jerjerod

EU

Grand Admiral Thrawn
Gilad Pellaeon
Maarek Stele
Soontir Fel
Jagged Fel *
Ysanne Isard **
Wullf Yularen (technically film but we never saw him do anything that would make him one thing or another until the EU)


* Can't remember if He defected or not.
** From what I've heard, though I wouldn't mind a second opinion if that is true or not.

Officers I personally would consider competent in spite of their errors in judgement.

Captain Needa
Captain Kurghee

Captain Lennox "Good, Our First Catch of the day"
Grand Moff Tarkin

Officers from the films I would consider incompetent

Admiral Ozzel

The rest I have no opinion of/don't know enough of to judge.

Wouldn't mind seeing more, or what you guys think of my list, Not sure if I should include Defectors or not though.

Most of the officers I recall seeing in the films were quite competent, it's seems it's just the EU that has a love affair with the bombastic, overly self absorbed and incompetent Imp officer. :finger:
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Edward Yee »

Soontir Fel did defect after his capture, I believe in part due to being disgruntled with Ysanne Isard, as well as his bad experience with Adm. Lon Isoto. According to Wookiepedia, this would actually cause Isoto to be officially recognized as the "hero" at Brentaal IV, even though Isoto's a definite list for the "incompetent" category.

Isoto did absolutely nothing to help himself in the "competence" department other than agreeing to Fel's initial request for stationary defenses and a launch site for the 181st, and this'd be why he was left in charge -- basically "leave an incompetent commander in charge of your enemies," but for the sake of Isard's ambition. (He ended up assassinated by an agent of Isard's undercover as Isoto's concubine, and was "rescued" by the New Republic.)
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Ritterin Sophia
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Hold up I just noticed these:
Norade wrote:If you're wearing armor IRL, and I nail you in the chest with an SMG how fast are you getting back up? Also, how long do we stay and watch the downed soldiers? A few seconds at most... Yeah.
Not long? Most of the pistol rounds used in submachine guns don't have enough mass to give it sufficient force on an adult human, especially (if we're going to make this analogy correct) if he's wearing a 16lb IBA equivalent, to knock him down. Hell sometimes 5.56x45mm doesn't do it. As the Rebels typically use rifles, with the exception of unusually powerful DL-44s like Han's which are specifically noted to be one of the only pistols with sufficient power to penetrate Stormie armor.
Hint, the US training programs are considered in many cases poor compared to nations such as Canada or Israel. These smaller nations can afford more time and money per soldier so they often end up with a better product.
Israel better trained? Why don't you show me where American SF fast-roped into a mob of potential hostiles on a boat?
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Adam Reynolds »

General Schatten wrote:Israel better trained? Why don't you show me where American SF fast-roped into a mob of potential hostiles on a boat?
I believe this was referring to the Israeli military as a whole, not merely their SF units.
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by JointStrikeFighter »

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Ritterin Sophia
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Re: Extremely flawed SW military?

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Adamskywalker007 wrote:
General Schatten wrote:Israel better trained? Why don't you show me where American SF fast-roped into a mob of potential hostiles on a boat?
I believe this was referring to the Israeli military as a whole, not merely their SF units.
SF are supposed to be better trained than your typical grunt and are typically far more experienced than your average conscript, especially the officers in charge of such a unit. Israel's entire reputation is made fighting a bunch of people who are horrible at conducting mechanized warfare. The Army isn't as bad as the Air Force, which in turn isn't as bad as the Navy; but they are certainly not better trained when you have mistakes like that within the past year.
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