Karen Traviss at SWEndirect

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2006-03-18 04:48pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
The Dark wrote:It doesn't get any better in the Bug War (current end of the NJO), where a Killik strike force of forty thousand is supposed to be some uber force of doom. Apparently, fifteen vessels the size of an Executor, a single captured and damaged Mon Mothma Star Destroyer, and 40,000 troops can plunge the entire galaxy into eternal warfare .
Apparnetly you didn't read all the books. IIRC later on when they actually get into a ground war with the chiss, they're using a fuckload of bugs (The Chiss IIRC had at LEAST 100,000 troopers on the planet, and the Killiks had far far more.)

This was in the third book, which claims to be "the explosive conclusion." Yeah, there were a crapton on the planet that Jaina and Zekk were on, but Han and Leia were panicking over "close to forty thousand troops" on page 97 of the softcover version of the book.

And the Executor-sized vessels were really just mobile asteroids, remember (although that implies vessels of similar scale-mass.)

Fifteen egg-shaped vessels ranging from 7952 to 8234 meters. Given that their length is nowhere near the Executor, the "Executor-sized" must refer to mass. Plus they're unshielded.

There was also the sixteen-engine flagship in the third novel, which might be an Executor-sized starship (it certainly had a big-ass hangar bay)

I must've missed that ship entirely. The only big hangar bays I recall were at the nest Han and Leia visited and aboard the Megador, which was a ship being used by the Jedi Order.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-03-18 06:00pm

Can we split off the Palpatine stuff and get back to how KT is a dumbass please?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-03-18 06:06pm

And split for whether Palpatine: Madman or Genius?.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-03-18 06:47pm

Hey, here's an awesome bit th throw out - At Merson, being outnmbered 5:1 resulted in a total wipeout of Republic forces, and at Parcellus Minor being outnumbered 10:1 meant that only 10% of republic forces escaped, and they only escaped because the Space commander started shooting down at both sides and did a quasi-BDZ on the place.

Source is DHC Clone wars book 5

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2006-03-18 06:59pm

Or how about an entire Army Corps of troopers (38,000) being decimated on Jabiim by an army of 10,000 droids and an unknown number of Jabiimi Separatists (local militia)? In the evacuation scene, only 1 Consular Cruiser and 8 gunships descend to extract the surviving clones. This is enough to carry perhaps 200 clones (20 per gunship + ~50 on the cruiser), and Anakin's troops were supposedly the only survivors of the battle. Source is DHC Clone Wars 3.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-19 02:50am

I was thinking about the ROTS novelization. Senator Eekway was describing how "full regiments of clone troops" were accompanying the new governors. Bail Organa asks a little later "How do we stop him from garrisoning troops in all our systems?" With three million clone troops, that's not a problem.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-19 04:48am

I was thinking about the ROTS novelization. Senator Eekway was describing how "full regiments of clone troops" were accompanying the new governors. Bail Organa asks a little later "How do we stop him from garrisoning troops in all our systems?" With three million clone troops, that's not a problem.

Oh man, you have to use that one in the blog!

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2006-03-19 11:18am

Labyrinth of Evil has Palpatine dispatching 500,000 clone troops from Coruscant's own defensive forces to reinforce the Outer Rim sieges and Bail makes the observation that it is about half of theri garrison strength leaving Corusacnt weakened. That would imply that Coruscant's garrison is 1 million clones. So fully 1/3 ofthe Grand Army never even saw battle during the Clone Wars as they were stationed on Coruscant so the odds are even more ridiculously stacked with only 2 million clones avilabale and frankly if a world like Coruscant merits 1 million clone garrison (IMO woefully small already) what about the garrisons on other key worlds like Corellia?

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-03-19 12:08pm

Corellia wasn't a part of the war, but I'd imagine core worlds like Alsakan, Metellos, Kuat, Anaxes, and so on would have had garrisons too.

Only a million clones on Coruscant, though? That's not nearly enough to have the "clone on every corner" the same book mentions several times.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-19 12:52pm

Stravo wrote:Labyrinth of Evil has Palpatine dispatching 500,000 clone troops from Coruscant's own defensive forces to reinforce the Outer Rim sieges and Bail makes the observation that it is about half of theri garrison strength leaving Corusacnt weakened. That would imply that Coruscant's garrison is 1 million clones. So fully 1/3 ofthe Grand Army never even saw battle during the Clone Wars as they were stationed on Coruscant so the odds are even more ridiculously stacked with only 2 million clones avilabale and frankly if a world like Coruscant merits 1 million clone garrison (IMO woefully small already) what about the garrisons on other key worlds like Corellia?

For those of you that are quite familiar with the EU, are there any more such specific examples?

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-03-19 01:31pm

The 1,000,000 Clones might have been from the elite 'Homeworld Security' forces under Palpatine i recall reading about.

The other Clone on Every Corner troops would just be 'regular' Clone Troopers while these are the elite, maybe like proto-stormies.

Which would explain the fear of sending half away, that would be a lot of expensive, perhaps irreplacible elite forces. Like sending half of Delta Force on a single mission where many will not return, thats a lot of experience and skill going down the drain there.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-03-19 01:52pm

I just want to fucking tear my hair out.

Why couldn't they just have countless billions of clone troopers fighting a horrific, nigh-incomprehensibly massive war that stretches across the galaxy? Do they actually not think that's fucking cool?

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2006-03-19 02:04pm

Cykeisme wrote:I just want to fucking tear my hair out.

Why couldn't they just have countless billions of clone troopers fighting a horrific, nigh-incomprehensibly massive war that stretches across the galaxy? Do they actually not think that's fucking cool?

It's been mentioned thousands of times before, but it is rather confusing that many EU Fanboys actually don't overstate Star Wars' capabilities and instead seem to wank to how small it is.

Odd.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-03-19 02:12pm

Jackpot.

From Insider #65
[quote="CIS Shadowfeed 14:2:14 Edition; article Dooku Addresses "Spurious" Republic Reports"]
"The forces on our borders and outlying colonial assets are admittedly facing greater numbers, but with our inexhaustible supply of troops and materiel from the Neimoidian coffer-worlds, Techno Union home foundaries and might guild-worlds, its only a matter of time before the republic is overwhelmed."[/quote]

In comparing the total clone forces to total droid forces, Dooku admits that the clones outnumber the droids, and that it will take the continued exponential growth of the droid army to win.

The Clone army outnumbered the Droid army.

Jackpot.

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2006-03-19 02:20pm

Two predictable Travisite responses will probably follow:

A) This is proof that the Droid Army was small, too, and that the conflict was a tiny special ops wankfest and (Palpantine chess bullshit follows)
B) He only meant deployable ones, not the 99.9% left around for some vague reason because the Chancellor plays a mean game of chess.

A good find, it basically demolishes the idea of the 3 million clones for- what is this?- the fourth time?.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-03-19 02:28pm

MRDOD wrote:A good find, it basically demolishes the idea of the 3 million clones for- what is this?- the fourth time?.

That figure was demolished before it was even published. They'll probably, actually, respond by claiming that the only forces that were outnumbered were isolated, since they were on their borders and outlying colonial assets.

The really good ones are still the quotes where a 5:1 numerical disadvantage caused TPK's for the clones.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2006-03-19 04:41pm

Stravo wrote:Labyrinth of Evil has Palpatine dispatching 500,000 clone troops from Coruscant's own defensive forces to reinforce the Outer Rim sieges and Bail makes the observation that it is about half of theri garrison strength leaving Corusacnt weakened. That would imply that Coruscant's garrison is 1 million clones. So fully 1/3 ofthe Grand Army never even saw battle during the Clone Wars as they were stationed on Coruscant so the odds are even more ridiculously stacked with only 2 million clones avilabale and frankly if a world like Coruscant merits 1 million clone garrison (IMO woefully small already) what about the garrisons on other key worlds like Corellia?

Actually, Palpatine only commits 200,000 more clones to the Outer Rim Sieges, and Bail Organa says that its half of the Coruscant garrison, bringing the total to a pitiful 400,000. This is supposed to be Coruscant, where in the ROTS novelization Bail states that there are troopers on practically every street corner. For Coruscant to become an effective police state patrolled by clones, there would have to be tens of millions for the upper levels alone. Laybrinth of Evil actually still uses the older 1.2 million clones number, stating that there are only 600,000 of the original clones left, but perhaps he excludes any clones produced later.

The New Essential Chronology has some good anti-minimalist quotes, namely:

San Hill, the arrogant chairman of the InterGalactic Banking Clan, had worked to make his homeworld of Munnilinst an unassailable castle keep. The Republic countered with sheer numbers, sending hundreds of assault ships, each one groaning from the weight of troopers and war machines. Many vessels reached the surface only as smoldering hulks; others found themselves cut off from their drop zones, forced to make landings behind enemy lines.

This quote directly supports evidence that the Republic sent millions of troops to Munnilinst alone. 200 assault ships is enough for 3,200,000 clones. So this would mean that the Republic sent the entire clone army to a single battle according to Traviss. I think this is all the refutation of that number that we need. This also counters the idiotic "chess game" idea, as the Republic didn't send a strategic unit to eliminate the droids, they sent more troops than the Confederacy had droids. Munnilinst is a CIS homeworld, likely with its own foundries and access to millions of droids. From this information, it is obvious that the Republic sent enough clones to outnumber the droids.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-03-19 04:50pm

Many vessels reached the surface only as smoldering hulks

Sent millions, and lost a big portion of them, too!

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2006-03-19 09:44pm

Mange the Swede wrote:I was thinking about the ROTS novelization. Senator Eekway was describing how "full regiments of clone troops" were accompanying the new governors. Bail Organa asks a little later "How do we stop him from garrisoning troops in all our systems?" With three million clone troops, that's not a problem.

Let's see.....around a million worlds that were part of the Empire. Even if we figure half of them came from the CIS, that would leave 500,000 Republic worlds to be garrisoned. That means that the largest possible average clone garrison would be six soldiers, and there'd be nobody left to attack the CIS.

Yeah. Three million. Sure.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-03-19 11:43pm

MRDOD wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:I just want to fucking tear my hair out.

Why couldn't they just have countless billions of clone troopers fighting a horrific, nigh-incomprehensibly massive war that stretches across the galaxy? Do they actually not think that's fucking cool?
It's been mentioned thousands of times before, but it is rather confusing that many EU Fanboys actually don't overstate Star Wars' capabilities and instead seem to wank to how small it is.

Odd.

Yeah incredibly so.

I mentioned this before, to Red Imperator, when this first came up. I just dont understand it, its like they're anti-Fanboys from the antimatter universe who believe it is wanking to nerf one's favorite series, and vice versa.

Its not just odd, its practically unheard of elsewhere. I think its a phenomenon unique to SW EU fandom.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-03-20 12:46am

WOTC's revised 2nd edition RPG had a source where the Republic put in an order for at least 1000 assault ships for the clones, IIRC. which means at least 16,000,000 clones just after GEonosis.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-03-20 03:21am

MRDOD wrote:It's been mentioned thousands of times before, but it is rather confusing that many EU Fanboys actually don't overstate Star Wars' capabilities and instead seem to wank to how small it is.

It's not really confusing at all. They knee-jerk a number without really thinking about it, and then they refuse to admit error because of pride. Think of Iraq War syndrome: how many people ran around waving flags to the idea before the invasion, and are now just stubbornly defending it because they won't admit they were wrong?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-20 11:37am

The Dark wrote:
Mange the Swede wrote:I was thinking about the ROTS novelization. Senator Eekway was describing how "full regiments of clone troops" were accompanying the new governors. Bail Organa asks a little later "How do we stop him from garrisoning troops in all our systems?" With three million clone troops, that's not a problem.
Let's see.....around a million worlds that were part of the Empire. Even if we figure half of them came from the CIS, that would leave 500,000 Republic worlds to be garrisoned. That means that the largest possible average clone garrison would be six soldiers, and there'd be nobody left to attack the CIS.

Yeah. Three million. Sure.

IIRC, the TPM novelization implied that the Republic had 100,000 systems. While no hard figures has been stated (that I know of) about how many systems formed the CIS, the AOTC opening crawl stated that "Several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic". Let's assume that's 5,000 systems (it says "several thousand" after all) together with the 10,000 systems figure mentioned by Dooku later, that leaves 85,000 systems or 35 clone troopers (as that's specified by Senator Eekway) per system (of course, the balance would be different after three years of war, but that's about the highest figure I can get) and that's still forgetting that the war was still going on.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-03-20 01:53pm

IIRC, the TPM novelization implied that the Republic had 100,000 systems. While no hard figures has been stated (that I know of) about how many systems formed the CIS, the AOTC opening crawl stated that "Several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic". Let's assume that's 5,000 systems (it says "several thousand" after all) together with the 10,000 systems figure mentioned by Dooku later, that leaves 85,000 systems or 35 clone troopers (as that's specified by Senator Eekway) per system (of course, the balance would be different after three years of war, but that's about the highest figure I can get) and that's still forgetting that the war was still going on.

It gets worse than that. Shatterpoint, originator of the million man clone army, listed the number of Republic systems as 1.2 million. Comparetively, the CIS has about 100,000 systems (IIRC), but the disparity is pretty huge. Laughably so. Three clones a world.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-03-20 02:24pm

Noble Ire wrote:
IIRC, the TPM novelization implied that the Republic had 100,000 systems. While no hard figures has been stated (that I know of) about how many systems formed the CIS, the AOTC opening crawl stated that "Several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic". Let's assume that's 5,000 systems (it says "several thousand" after all) together with the 10,000 systems figure mentioned by Dooku later, that leaves 85,000 systems or 35 clone troopers (as that's specified by Senator Eekway) per system (of course, the balance would be different after three years of war, but that's about the highest figure I can get) and that's still forgetting that the war was still going on.
It gets worse than that. Shatterpoint, originator of the million man clone army, listed the number of Republic systems as 1.2 million. Comparetively, the CIS has about 100,000 systems (IIRC), but the disparity is pretty huge. Laughably so. Three clones a world.

Thanks, Shatterpoint is a novel that has passed me by. Well, two and a half clone trooper per Republican system then...