The Karen Traviss Database

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-30 11:39pm

Haven't you read the debates? Traviss thinks troopships that are 'groaning' from the load could mean millions of troops per ship, or hundreds. She's a fucking retard.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-04-30 11:50pm

To give even a worse idea of how low 3 million is?

The top ten countries on Earth outproduce the GAR in a year of people reaching military age. The number is somewhere in the 36 million range(excluding Bangladesh). The more you do research, the more you laugh at the number and wonder exactly why is she so adamant(other then to save face).

China is around the 10 million mark, with a possible army(on the extreme Pablo was speaking of) of 342,956,265 Literally the GAR couldn't occupy China with numbers alone...in fact they would need their orbital support, and somehow I doubt the CIS had that much difference in technology.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-05-01 12:04am

Ghost Rider wrote:Overall, well done. It does get to heart of the matter(as does MoO's debate with her...gotta love that "It's fun to attack a woman!" line she does throw out), that she has attacked and ignored other authors and claims that she's right in her cause and obviously everyone disagreeing are misogynist pigs.

I don't recall ever debating her. She left TFN at about the time I started discussing the whole situation, and after she left and posted those blogs of hers on SW.com I decided I had no reason to correspond with her.

What is sad is really none of this would happen if she would for but one second see that 3 million wouldn't work in if we invaded China, let alone the scale she's going for. Instead she ties everything to 3 million and tries to actually state that Lucas is off his rocker and really this is all one giant scam by Palpatine.

Oh, but GR, she's a real life defense expert!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-05-01 12:20am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Overall, well done. It does get to heart of the matter(as does MoO's debate with her...gotta love that "It's fun to attack a woman!" line she does throw out), that she has attacked and ignored other authors and claims that she's right in her cause and obviously everyone disagreeing are misogynist pigs.
I don't recall ever debating her. She left TFN at about the time I started discussing the whole situation, and after she left and posted those blogs of hers on SW.com I decided I had no reason to correspond with her.

Ah, gotcha

Master of Ossus wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:What is sad is really none of this would happen if she would for but one second see that 3 million wouldn't work in if we invaded China, let alone the scale she's going for. Instead she ties everything to 3 million and tries to actually state that Lucas is off his rocker and really this is all one giant scam by Palpatine.
Oh, but GR, she's a real life defense expert!

Ugh, yes...I keep forgetting that part of her credentials

Some defense expert. Instead of making 3 million into somethat could be thought as platoons, squads, anything...she goes for individual soldiers. Thus proving if we had GAR tech, China alone could outstrip her precious Mandos by four times the amount yearly.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-05-01 01:37am

Master of Ossus wrote:Oh, but GR, she's a real life defense expert!

I find that disturbing.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-01 02:31am

Very well put together, Lord Poe! I particulary liked these points:

* that you emphasized that Karen Traviss in no way was "driven away" from the TFN boards and that her defenders couldn't find anything offensive.

* the points about the uninspired mess known as Odds which completely goes against anything that George Lucas has hinted about.

* the disturbing things she posts on her LJ.

Oh, and I particulary liked that you posted this:

jedi_haiku (Ryan Kaufman) and I are standing by for the inevitable wave of arguments that will follow the article, but we did it to set down the continuity about the clone army and put an end to a few debates. Common sense tells me this will never happen, and that folks wouldn't find it much fun if it did. But it does give us the ability to brandish the document, repel all boarders, and yell: "Because we bloody well say so!"

So she wrote the piece just to be able to stave criticism by pointing to it.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-05-01 02:45am

If I ever become an EU writer I'll be sure to write up a short story to establish the fact that in the Star Wars universe, 1!=1. That's right, the reflexive property of equality doesn't apply in SW. Because I bloody well say so.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-05-01 02:49am

Pablo Sanchez wrote:If I ever become an EU writer I'll be sure to write up a short story to establish the fact that in the Star Wars universe, 1!=1. That's right, the reflexive property of equality doesn't apply in SW. Because I bloody well say so.

....

I'm sure that Dark Moose and Thrawn McEwok would immediately describe it as brilliant, and inform us all that your story fits perfectly with a theory they've been working on for years.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-01 03:26am

Master of Ossus
This could be a joke, however, I notice the disturbing trail of thought...

We were discussing the possibility of changing the "Odds" nonsense numbers by public backslash, and one of the posters at TF.n wrote:

And hopefully, Lucasfilm will listen to fans who DON'T want the change and we can work to defeat this initiave. I certainly will fight and write letters against any campaigns fans may make to have the changes and furthermore work actively against any I see because I think its important to keeping the feel of the Clone Wars as a primarily non-clone and non-droid war.

See? Clone = non-clone.

How much more anti-Lucas can one get, I wonder..

It's just sad.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-05-01 03:30am

Stas Bush wrote:See? Clone = non-clone.

How much more anti-Lucas can one get, I wonder.. It's just sad.

Where did you get that? Don't hotlink it, use the +http://.... format.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2006-05-01 03:37am

Stofsk wrote:Good job man. I don't get involved in these kinds of debates because evidentally many, more capable than I, are already doing that. But still, the fact you're doing it is something to be commended.

I find it horrifying that over a simple disagreement of a single number in a fictional universe someone would start chucking death threats around like that. Thats damn sackable material right there.

I hope people are trying to contact her bosses and the like to see if they are even going todo anything about it.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-01 03:37am

Stas Bush wrote:
Master of Ossus... because I think its important to keeping the feel of the Clone Wars as a primarily non-clone and non-droid war.
See? Clone = non-clone.

How much more anti-Lucas can one get, I wonder.. It's just sad.

Erk! What? Isn't the Clone War specifically about it being between Clones and Droids? Isn't, uh... that... what the Clone Wars are? Why would we ever want to make it seem LESS like that? Who is this insane person? Who, besides the Clones and the Droids, were fighting?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-01 03:43am

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 986/p3/?71

Scroll down to bottom of page. I'm "Gross-admiral_Thrawn".

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-01 03:53am

Stas Bush wrote:+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 986/p3/?71

Scroll down to bottom of page. I'm "Gross-admiral_Thrawn".

Good points, Stas. I mean, what's this:

TFN member wrote:And hopefully, Lucasfilm will listen to fans who DON'T want the change and we can work to defeat this initiave.[...] because I think its important to keeping the feel of the Clone Wars as a primarily non-clone and non-droid war. They're superheroes in the war, ditto with the Jedi.

Trying to change what George Lucas intended, uh?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-01 05:12am

Making the Clone Wars into a non-Clone war is just about the dumbest idea I've ever heard coming from the fandom.

Star-Blighter · Post by **Star-Blighter** » 2006-05-01 05:28am

All I can say on this is that people who actually argue that the CLONE wars should not be about the topic material clearly stated in the title are utter lunatics who most likely have no knowledge about SW in general and may not even have anything but the most casual interest in it to begin with.

In other words, they're all fucking posers, just like certain brain-damaged trekies...

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-01 05:32am

Well, there's the Complete SW VD from DK coming out this year, isn't it? From what I heard, it deals with Clone Wars. And it already says "Clones turning on the Jedi throughout the entire Galaxy"

feel teh scope.

So his notions of this error being repeated in other sources after Traviss may be false anyway.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-05-01 05:49am

And hopefully, Lucasfilm will listen to fans who DON'T want the change and we can work to defeat this initiave.[...] because I think its important to keeping the feel of the Clone Wars as a primarily non-clone and non-droid war. They're superheroes in the war, ditto with the Jedi.

Wow. You can't make this shit up...

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-05-01 05:50am

Indeed. I almost fell out of my chair.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-01 05:55am

It's times like this that I really understand what George Lucas is saying here:

Starlog wrote:I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.

This is really an example of going off in another direction. Instead of going with what is established in the movies, criticism is brushed aside and critics ridiculed. I wonder what George Lucas would say if he read the claims about the Clone Wars which is very different from the vision he has showed that are now being pushed upon us fans.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2006-05-01 06:19am

Wayne I pimped for Colonel Olrik before, and now if you'll let me I'd like to pimp for myself, I see that you included the following 'Travissty';

Karen Traviss wrote: Digest of my replies from yesterday: I hope nobody's ever put off asking questions. I don't mind what folks ask as long as they're prepared to hear the answers. You know why the number of clones will never work out right? Because there are a number of things already floating around that make the two ends of the equation irreconcilable using real world numbers.

We know how big Kamino is, we had existing clone numbers, but we also have mega-figures for droids. The two don't mix. But what we did know was that the war would never run its course, and so most of those droids would never see battle. So that's how we took the numbers we had and retconned them the way we did.

If you took this to its logical conclusion, the numbers of clone soldiers needed would have been many billions. Kamino is about half as big again as Earth (population 6 billion, with lots of land masses) and a waterworld. It has a billion inhabitants. So - and this is where it takes the fun out of it - real science and numbers means that they could never have produced and trained anything like that number of clones, because the infrastructure alone would have been unworkable. In fact, the whole physics and economics of them having an advanced industrial world doesn't stack up - using hard facts.

And they wouldn't have had the resources or infrastructure to create huge training and exercise areas, either. And clones produced by that method wouldn't have been functional enough as human beings to operate on the battlefield. And you can't teach everything by flash training; you need them to do it for real. And...keeping secret the supply of the hardware alone would have been impossible. And...

So...bang goes the whole clone wars thanks to reality. And that's why I get a litle impatient when I get folks flaming me about the numbers. They're being selective. They don't look at the whole equation, which is a lot more complex than dividing droids by clones!

I ripped into that one when it first appeared here, and I would be honoured if you used it;

Crown wrote:I'm sorry - but you're dead wrong. Let me rephrase;

There is no way using 'hard facts' that the island of Manhattan could support a population of 1.5 million people given it's land size ... you'd be right too, if we were moronic enough to treat the island of Manhattan as a closed system - which is the way you're treating Kamino.

But here's the thing, Manhattan isn't a closed system, it doesn't need to supply food, water, electricy, etc on it's given landmass to support its population.

Much like Kamino doesn't need to supply those things inorder to support a population greater than 6 billion - simply because in a universe where intra galactic travel is measured by the hour, no planet could be seriously analysed as a closed system.

Don't believe me? Then explain Coruscant.

Crown wrote:Honestly though, I get the impression that she's trying to convince herself more than anything - since she obviously knows those numbers are batshit insanely wrong - and is just throwing out the first thing that pops into her head as justification ... unfortunately it is by and large groundless.

I mean she does make some valid points, for example; 'In fact, the whole physics and economics of them having an advanced industrial world doesn't stack up - using hard facts.'

But this is a red herring. The fact that they are an advanced industrial world is a fait acompli in the movies, too bad for her, now she has to explain why this 'advanced industrial world' can only put out an army (and according to her claims support said army) that is in essence only twice the population of Manhattan.

I'm sorry; it's a water world! Doesn't fly, as Earth's oceans can actually support 1.5 times the population than Earth's land mass can!

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-01 06:26am

It's only ~30K, so I hope it's ok...

Tales from the Non-Clone Wars.

~10k.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-01 06:57am

That's excellent.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-01 07:04am

Every time retards in SW debates try to enforce ludicrous assumptions with sources, they almost always turn out to quote assumptions made by in-universe characters. (And in this case, a clone. A completely random clone?)

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-01 12:23pm

Hmm, the database found its way to Traviss who labels it as "abuse":

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... tart=01425