Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[The Romulan Republic]

The overall plan with TFA seems very clear: "Ape the OT to appease the Prequel bashers."

To their credit, they managed quite a few innovative things despite that (like having non-white male leads, a deconstruction of a Sith Lord, and a redeemed Stormtrooper protagonist).

[jollyreaper]

The MCU is an interesting comparison, because it's constantly building up to something on multiple levels. The solo ventures follow fairly standard narrative structures, and are able to exist largely independent of each other. You don't need to have seen Iron Man 1 and 2 to understand what's going on in the first Captain America, for example, but if you do see them first, you have basically bonus content with the inclusion of Howard Stark, and get a little more insight into Tony by getting to know more about his father. Then, on top of that, all of the solo movies in each phase build up towards the ensemble movies that end the phase. And the third layer is gradually setting up the Infinity War through the introduction of the Infinity Stones and Thanos. As for what comes after, I remember Feige saying that they plan on shifting the focus of the MCU after they finish the Infinity War. Maybe, for instance, they are going to use the Captain Marvel movie to plant the seeds of the Kree/Skrull war.

I think the MCU development has gone far better than it really should. There were a few cinematic misfires (Thor 2, Iron Man 2, 3) and for much of the run the villains were underdeveloped and generic but they've managed to make broadly entertaining movies that hold together remarkably well rather than seeming like trailers for the cool thing that won't be out for another year. There's easter eggs for the comic geeks, tie-ins to other films in the continuity that serve as world-building rather than feeling shoe-horned, and overall they deliver on the promise of being fun popcorn movies with your favorite comic heroes (or heroes who have become your favorites.)

Given the usual history of comic book films, the MCU should be looking more like the DCU.

The way I read the article for post-Infinity War, it sounds like they're going to try for smaller films along a different genre because you can't really go bigger than the infinity gauntlet and threatening all of space-time. So even if they end up building towards another infinity war eventually, they're going to take some time to get there so it doesn't feel like another comic crossover stunt of the week.

Remaining in Phase 3
Black Panther (2018)
Avengers: Infinity War (2018)
Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018)
Captain Marvel (2019)
Untitled Avengers Film (2019)

Phase 4 2019 to 2028(?!)
Untitled Spider-Man: Homecoming Sequel (2019)
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 (TBA)
Unnamed movie under development (Black Widow maybe?)
Unnamed movie under development
Unnamed movie under development
(undetermined number of additional movies not even mentioned)

[Elfdart]

I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to.

Fair enough, though belittling Holdo by calling her "Admiral Cocktail Dress" is bordering on sexism, in my opinion. Though I do agree that she ought to have worn a more practical military uniform.

Oh blow it out your ass.

He's complaining about her uniform and stupidity, not her plumbing.

For me, the entire movie was painful to watch because of Fisher.

Very much so, in light of all the shit she took about her age and her weight -and not just from internet neckbeards. She was told to slim down a lot for TFA and given her age and history with substance abuse, I doubt pressure to lose weight and being sent on publicity junkets was a good idea. Lurking in the back of my mind the whole time I watched TLJ was the suspicion that Carrie Fisher might still be alive were it not for these sequels.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh blow it out your ass.

He's complaining about her uniform and stupidity, not her plumbing.

Agreed reg. the lack of uniform, with the caveat that people should be aware of the long history of people using a female leader's appearance to belittle her accomplishments.

Regarding her "stupidity"... care to address any of my arguments as to why her actions were reasonable under the circumstances?

Very much so, in light of all the shit she took about her age and her weight -and not just from internet neckbeards. She was told to slim down a lot for TFA and given her age and history with substance abuse, I doubt pressure to lose weight and being sent on publicity junkets was a good idea. Lurking in the back of my mind the whole time I watched TLJ was the suspicion that Carrie Fisher might still be alive were it not for these sequels.

That is a very disturbing thought.

All the more so since, leaving aside the obvious sexism issues, they could very easily have altered her appearance with CGI rather than impose physically arduous demands on her. It would still be sexist, but at least you wouldn't be potentially endangering the actor's health.

[GuppyShark]

Why does a space admiral need to wear a bland jumpsuit to be taken seriously? Officer attire has a long history of being impractical and designed for show. It's just stage dressing. If I was in the shit and General Patton showed up in a T-shirt and shorts I'd still follow his orders.

[tezunegari]

Why does a space admiral need to wear a bland jumpsuit to be taken seriously? Officer attire has a long history of being impractical and designed for show. It's just stage dressing. If I was in the shit and General Patton showed up in a T-shirt and shorts I'd still follow his orders.

Psychology.
Everyone else on the Raddus is shown in uniform.
Having Holdo dressed as she is removes her from the group or at least it distances her and gives the impression of her being in the wrong place.

As audience we do not know her, so comparing her to Patton is a bit of a stretch...
If some random dude in T-shirt and shorts tells you "have faith, a miracle will save us." while surrounded by people trying to kill you, would you trust him to be a professional soldier?
Now put the same guy in a uniform of a known professional army / police / EMT.

There is a saying in german: "Kleider machen Leute." ("Clothes make people.")
And it applies.

With her dress she looks like a politician, not a military commander. And I apply that to Leia too. She should have kept her outfit from TFA.

[Alkaloid]

So? Montgomery was described as dressing like a Bohemian Artist. Pretty much everyone that ever served under him worshipped him. You don't even know what Resistance uniforms look like, or if there even is one. For all you know that is the uniform because it can wrap around more or less any life form regardless of how many legs it has.

[Gandalf]

Good thing everyone knew to listen to Mon Mothma, despite her crazy robes.

[Civil War Man]

Why does a space admiral need to wear a bland jumpsuit to be taken seriously? Officer attire has a long history of being impractical and designed for show. It's just stage dressing. If I was in the shit and General Patton showed up in a T-shirt and shorts I'd still follow his orders.

I'm not at all invested in what Holdo was wearing, but the stage dressing does carry some importance in that it provides information. How a military character is dressed, for instance, can tell the audience a lot about the character's rank and personality without having to have some other character verbally explain those traits. It's pretty bog-standard showing versus telling. A general wearing fatigues is usually a character who is down-to-earth or practical, and not interested in theatrics, while one in a very flamboyant uniform tend to be eccentric, aristocrats, or both. A soldier wearing a uniform that is neatly starched and pressed is often a hard-ass who's a stickler for details, while one who is more messy or dressed down is either lazy, insubordinate, or is more interested in results than appearances. In the context of Star Wars, someone wearing (non-Jedi) robes or dresses like Mon Mothma, Leia, or Amidala tend to be aristocrats who are more political leaders than military, so I'm guessing some of the complaining over Holdo's dress is due to her being dressed like a political leader but addressed as a military one.

[tezunegari]

You don't even know what Resistance uniforms look like, or if there even is one. For all you know that is the uniform because it can wrap around more or less any life form regardless of how many legs it has.

Have you watched TFA and TLJ?!
Both on Da'q and on the Raddus people are wearing uniforms. Pilots in red with white vests, engineers in yellowish-green (Rose) and Officers wear a brownish uniform reminiscient of the imperial grey ones.



See these people? That is the Resistance Uniform. Or possibly New Republic Navy uniforms with Resistance applications.
Pilots in red (x-wing) or green/blue (A-wing, not shown here), Officers in brown or mustard-brown, technicians in greenish-brown

The only two people in this picture not wearing a uniform are Holdo and C3-PO, and C3-PO is technically naked.
Everyone else wears either battle dress, or service dress.

And for her dress to be a uniform... a Mess Dress perhaps... but those are only used for formal occasions.
Also her outfit shows no allegiance. Everyone else wears the Phoenix Symbol. (Leias outfits lacked that one too, but at least her TFA outfit didn't stand out of the crowd in Da'q base)

[CaoCao]

Good thing everyone knew to listen to Mon Mothma, despite her crazy robes.

Mon is a politcal leader, and dresses the part. Leia, to a point, too; but when she has to manage the base in Hoth or lead the assault on Endor, she wears combat outfit like the rest of the rebels. Holdo wearing that dress is akin to Leia wearing her ANH clothes in Hoth or Endor.

If Holdo was given clothes that matched her crew(other than in colour), or something more military but rank based, if they wanted to set her apart, that would have been fine. Hell, if they made her a brunette, gave her a slight blueish skin and red contacts, it would have worked far more.

[Vendetta]

Good thing everyone knew to listen to Mon Mothma, despite her crazy robes.

Mon is a politcal leader, and dresses the part. Leia, to a point, too; but when she has to manage the base in Hoth or lead the assault on Endor, she wears combat outfit like the rest of the rebels. Holdo wearing that dress is akin to Leia wearing her ANH clothes in Hoth or Endor.

If Holdo was given clothes that matched her crew(other than in colour), or something more military but rank based, if they wanted to set her apart, that would have been fine. Hell, if they made her a brunette, gave her a slight blueish skin and red contacts, it would have worked far more.

Mon Mothma also directly gives military briefings, so the distinction is not as sharp as you pretend.

Remember what I was saying about framing earlier on? Holdo's costume is there to make you agree with Poe when he doesn't trust her.

[Mange]

These are opinions and no opinions are more valid than others but...

I beg your pardon, but some opinions are definitely less valid than others- bigoted opinions, for example (though that doesn't particularly apply here), or ones that are based on objective factual inaccuracies (which does apply to some of these, in my opinion).

That is absolutely true and I should have written in the context of appreciating fiction. My apologies!

Finn and Poe are the two worst main Star Wars characters. Finn is essentially useless if it wasn't for him having been a janitor and thus somehow knows pretty much everything there is to know about the hyperspace tracking device.

I would also have liked if it had been Admiral Ackbar who had sacrificed himself instead of Admiral Cocktail Dress whom we just had been introduced to.

Fair enough, though belittling Holdo by calling her "Admiral Cocktail Dress" is bordering on sexism, in my opinion. Though I do agree that she ought to have worn a more practical military uniform.

It has nothing to do with sexism. I would have written the same thing if it had been a male Admiral wearing something similar to the Canto Bight outfits. I think some military protocol would be in order and I can't quite understand Johnson's reasoning here. Someone mentioned Mon Mothma, but she was a civilian, and not a military, leader. EDIT: Well, Vendetta brings forward a good point.

I do like your theory on Snoke!

Thanks. I think it would fit very neatly with the existing canon.

I think it's the best fan Snoke theory I've read and it works perfectly within the canon. I hope the canon explanation that'll come sooner or later is as good.

[Imperial Overlord]

Remember what I was saying about framing earlier on? Holdo's costume is there to make you agree with Poe when he doesn't trust her.

Yep. They got me with that, although I did clue in late. I was quite happy with it. It's like what they do with Denzel in Training Day, except in reverse. Pulpy adventure fiction leads us to trust in the hotshot pilot over the clueless brass, but if TLJ there's a reason Poe is just a squadron leader. He's good at leading an attack run, but someone else should be making the decision whether or not to make an attack run. He's not good at big picture stuff.

[CaoCao]

Good thing everyone knew to listen to Mon Mothma, despite her crazy robes.

Mon is a politcal leader, and dresses the part. Leia, to a point, too; but when she has to manage the base in Hoth or lead the assault on Endor, she wears combat outfit like the rest of the rebels. Holdo wearing that dress is akin to Leia wearing her ANH clothes in Hoth or Endor.

If Holdo was given clothes that matched her crew(other than in colour), or something more military but rank based, if they wanted to set her apart, that would have been fine. Hell, if they made her a brunette, gave her a slight blueish skin and red contacts, it would have worked far more.

Mon Mothma also directly gives military briefings, so the distinction is not as sharp as you pretend.

Mon is the leader of the rebellion (which, in this case, would be Leia), so her giving a speech is not that out of place, and the battle order is given by Riekan as far as I remember. She doesn't take command of a ship nor gives orders to Ackbar, Wedge or anyone else on the battlefield, which is what Holdo is trying to do. Not to mention that there is a plan for the attack on DS II, that is explained to all of the commanding officers.

Remember what I was saying about framing earlier on? Holdo's costume is there to make you agree with Poe when he doesn't trust her.

Yep. They got me with that, although I did clue in late. I was quite happy with it. It's like what they do with Denzel in Training Day, except in reverse. Pulpy adventure fiction leads us to trust in the hotshot pilot over the clueless brass, but if TLJ there's a reason Poe is just a squadron leader. He's good at leading an attack run, but someone else should be making the decision whether or not to make an attack run. He's not good at big picture stuff.

The thing that makes one agree with Poe is not only a dress, it's that the guy had enough of an strategical knowledge to know when a big enemy asset is floating without protection, that he elaborates a plan (even a a shitty one), and that we see, on screen, the resistance fleet being whitled as time passes.

Oh, but she had a plan in the end...what a twist.

[Elheru Aran]

Mon is the leader of the rebellion (which, in this case, would be Leia), so her giving a speech is not that out of place, and the battle order is given by Riekan as far as I remember. She doesn't take command of a ship nor gives orders to Ackbar, Wedge or anyone else on the battlefield, which is what Holdo is trying to do. Not to mention that there is a plan for the attack on DS II, that is explained to all of the commanding officers.

Minor detail: Rieekan wasn't the briefing officer at Endor, that was Crix Madine.

(god I am such a nerd sometimes)

[Alkaloid]

And for her dress to be a uniform... a Mess Dress perhaps... but those are only used for formal occasions.
Also her outfit shows no allegiance. Everyone else wears the Phoenix Symbol. (Leias outfits lacked that one too, but at least her TFA outfit didn't stand out of the crowd in Da'q base)

So now her formal outfit which matches the colour scheme for the rest of the bridge crews is possibly her Dress Uniform but she still somehow isn't in uniform enough? Literally no one but Poe and his merry band of mutinous fuckwits had an issue with taking orders from her. Poe had to lock the rest of the crew out of the bridge to prevent them from taking the ship back from him. It clearly was not an issue.

The thing that makes one agree with Poe is not only a dress, it's that the guy had enough of an strategical knowledge to know when a big enemy asset is floating without protection, that he elaborates a plan (even a a shitty one), and that we see, on screen, the resistance fleet being whitled as time passes.

Oh, but she had a plan in the end...what a twist.

Poe achieved literally nothing beyond getting resistance members killed and equipment destroyed. He has zero 'strategical' sense, he can barely conceive of a tactical blan beyond 30 seconds from what is happening right now. The resistance fleet couldn't fight off the FO fleet while the whatsits name was alive. It also couldn't fight off the FO fleet after the whatsits name was dead, only now the resistance fleets entire bomber force was destroyed pushing a desperate attack they clearly weren't well suited for. The only possible reason pushing the attack could have made sense is if they were still trying to stop the ship from firing on the base, which became irrelevant once they completed evacuating, which funnily enough was why Leia ordered him to break off the attack.

Sure would of been nice if the bomber force had survived and they could have used them on the gate cracking gun on Crait, but sadly , Poe the 'strategical' genius got them all pointlessly killed instead.

[Civil War Man]

Poe achieved literally nothing beyond getting resistance members killed and equipment destroyed. He has zero 'strategical' sense, he can barely conceive of a tactical blan beyond 30 seconds from what is happening right now. The resistance fleet couldn't fight off the FO fleet while the whatsits name was alive. It also couldn't fight off the FO fleet after the whatsits name was dead, only now the resistance fleets entire bomber force was destroyed pushing a desperate attack they clearly weren't well suited for. The only possible reason pushing the attack could have made sense is if they were still trying to stop the ship from firing on the base, which became irrelevant once they completed evacuating, which funnily enough was why Leia ordered him to break off the attack.

Sure would of been nice if the bomber force had survived and they could have used them on the gate cracking gun on Crait, but sadly , Poe the 'strategical' genius got them all pointlessly killed instead.

Assuming that Poe accomplished nothing in that run is assuming that the guns on that dreadnought would have been equally ineffective against the shields of the Resistance ships as the other FO ships. They don't really bother to state one way or the other, since the dreadnought's already been destroyed by that point, but it can't be taken as a given that the guns would have been ineffective when they specifically took time out of the movie to call that ship and only that ship a "fleet killer." The sacrifice of the bomber wing could very easily have been the reason the Resistance fleet even had enough time to implement a plan to begin with. It only seemed pointless in the beginning because the Resistance didn't know about the hyperspace tracking at that time (though still short-sighted on Poe's part, since he also didn't know about the tracking).

The later deaths were definitely pointless losses resulting from Poe's bad decisions, but that still doesn't speak well of Holdo since she recognized he was short-sighted and impulsive, yet she kept him in a position where he could potentially jeopardize the fleet with his impulsiveness. I mean, Poe only felt obligated to try to come up with a plan because Holdo seemed to go out of her way to make Poe think that there was no plan. And, as others have pointed out, the fact that Rose stopped 4 separate desertion attempts at just one of the escape pods means that Poe wasn't the only one who got that impression. There are lots of very valid arguments in favor of not sharing the details of a plan with your subordinates before they need to know those details, but what purpose is served by apparently trying to convince them that a plan doesn't even exist?

[CaoCao]

The thing that makes one agree with Poe is not only a dress, it's that the guy had enough of an strategical knowledge to know when a big enemy asset is floating without protection, that he elaborates a plan (even a a shitty one), and that we see, on screen, the resistance fleet being whitled as time passes.

Oh, but she had a plan in the end...what a twist.

Poe achieved literally nothing beyond getting resistance members killed and equipment destroyed. He has zero 'strategical' sense, he can barely conceive of a tactical blan beyond 30 seconds from what is happening right now. The resistance fleet couldn't fight off the FO fleet while the whatsits name was alive. It also couldn't fight off the FO fleet after the whatsits name was dead, only now the resistance fleets entire bomber force was destroyed pushing a desperate attack they clearly weren't well suited for. The only possible reason pushing the attack could have made sense is if they were still trying to stop the ship from firing on the base, which became irrelevant once they completed evacuating, which funnily enough was why Leia ordered him to break off the attack.

The Fulminatrix (yeap, that's the name), was mentioned to be a fleet killer and to be able to shoot past planetary shields. Which means that, as long as it was active, no safe haven could be found in either space or sympathetic planets. And it was unprotected.

Sure would of been nice if the bomber force had survived and they could have used them on the gate cracking gun on Crait, but sadly , Poe the 'strategical' genius got them all pointlessly killed instead.

Because, if that ship was still working, there wouldn't have been a chase and, even if they had somehow made it to Crait, they would have been on shot by it. They wouldn't have had the chance to deploy the bombers (even if Kylo didn't destroy their fighter wing inside the Raddus).

[Patroklos]

Poe achieved literally nothing beyond getting resistance members killed and equipment destroyed. He has zero 'strategical' sense, he can barely conceive of a tactical blan beyond 30 seconds from what is happening right now. The resistance fleet couldn't fight off the FO fleet while the whatsits name was alive. It also couldn't fight off the FO fleet after the whatsits name was dead, only now the resistance fleets entire bomber force was destroyed pushing a desperate attack they clearly weren't well suited for. The only possible reason pushing the attack could have made sense is if they were still trying to stop the ship from firing on the base, which became irrelevant once they completed evacuating, which funnily enough was why Leia ordered him to break off the attack.

Sure would of been nice if the bomber force had survived and they could have used them on the gate cracking gun on Crait, but sadly , Poe the 'strategical' genius got them all pointlessly killed instead.

Nothing anyone in this series of events does makes sense until the movie breaks itself to justify it after the fact. NOTHING.

As for Pink, she could have hypered out her crew at at will, as Finn and Rose demonstrated (and Rey, to a lesser extent), anytime she wanted. There was zero need to hide out on that death trap of a planet, there was zero need to call in her allies to fight on that particular spot. Note she was calling them into an engagement where the Supremacy and attendant capital ships were still alive and well. Presumably she wasn't calling them into a death trap (although there is ZERO reason to give her the benefit of the doubt here, since all portions of her plan involved death traps) so presumably she was anticipating pretty powerful response (which speaks to a setting I would love to explore, we never will though). Which means there was zero reason to have them fight over that deserted planet vice anywhere they fucking wanted to that would hurt the FO unless we think there are common collections of such firepower in FO space.

[Vendetta]

The Fulminatrix (yeap, that's the name), was mentioned to be a fleet killer and to be able to shoot past planetary shields. Which means that, as long as it was active, no safe haven could be found in either space or sympathetic planets. And it was unprotected.

It's also spoken of as if it's one of several. "They're fleet killers". The First Order have others.

Also, attacking it delayed the Resistance's escape long enough for Snoke to arrive with his fancy hyperspace tracker turned on.

[Crazedwraith]

All the destroyers had tracking. Or at least the Finn/Poe/Rose brain trust assumed they did.

The bombers were slow even evacuating them would slow them down. I find unlikely they'd survive and end up on Crait regardless.

[Vendetta]

All the destroyers had tracking, but only one could have it active at once.

That would mean either the First Order switched over to tracking from Hux' ship to the Supremacy once it arrived (unnecessary) or it wasn't active before the Supremacy arrived. Given that Hux is the only man in space stupider than Poe Dameron, him not using a potentially useful asset (like him not shooting the Raddus in the first place and instead ordering his whole fleet to sit and watch an empty base getting demolished) is quite in character.

[Patroklos]

I loathe coming to the defense of any character in this shit show but I don't think the FO knew the Rebels were done evacuating.

No, they are stupid for a different reason, which is that the Raddus should have been the target regardless of the status of the Rebel base because empty or not, destroying the Raddus and the attendant vessels would have either killed all the just evacuated Rebels or stranded the not evacuated Rebels on the planet to be dealt with at the FO's leisure.

And all this talk about Poe being a dumbass for charging the dreadnaught is just masking the ture strategic dunce in the Rebel HQ, dumbass Leia. We literally watch her tell Poe is on a suicide mission that is just going to waste lives for no relative benefit by her estimation. Yet despite this and watching Poe continue the attack against her orders, she just sits there and watches what she predicted unfold instead of escaping with the bulk of the Rebel material and personnel. Its like not only can some hot head junior officer commandeer a strike force, but because he does so the fleet commander is now compelled to disregard her now public pronouncement of orders and suffer whatever may come? Talk about a fucking lack of military leadership, and Leia is supposed to be the mature and calculating one of the two?

Keep in mind most of the Rebel fighters disobeying her had hyperdrives, so her leaving them there isn't just stranding them with their dicks in their hands (maybe the bombers, but she didn't expect them to survive...). Not only that, they actually announced the Rebel evacuation was complete before the FO even got there. There is ZERO reason for Leia to not hightail it out of their the second the FO arrived, and especially when Poe was giving her and excellent distraction (which is what his attach should have been written as, with a unexpected survival and victory over the dreadnaught).

[EnterpriseSovereign]

One of the things that annoyed me was how they referred to the rebel transports as being "cloaked", even though none of the ships were shown to have either cloaking devices or actually turning invisible. What would have been more accurate would have been to say that they were using some sort of scrambling tech to keep themselves off the FO's sensors, since actual cloaking devices have been around since the Clone Wars.

As for the remaining Jedi students, I got the impression it was they who comprised the Elite Praetorian Guard, based on their numbers and capabilities.