Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[Patroklos]

It actually doesn't matter if the last shuttles made it to the Raddus, because Leia would have still be right to leave a portion behind if it meant not putting the entire Rebel fleet and whatever portion had already made it off the base behind. There is no tactically logical way to make this work.

Remember when The DSII was discovered to be operational, an existential threat to the entire Rebel fleet, and Ackbar ordered a retreat that would have left the Rebels on Endor to their fate?

Lando eventually pointed out there was a good reason to risk the fleet in that situation so that order was not carried out, but the whole point of the scene was for Leia to point out there was no such similar extenuating circumstances in the TLJ situation and the audience is obviously supposed to think she was right given the further (failed) attempts at Poe character building. So Leia is right, got it director, so why the hell is she not following through?

Also I have no issue with the Raddus having non-hypercapable transports for ship to planet utility purposes. It makes perfect sense. I do find it odd, however, that such craft would have what the continuity has always declared to be super valuable and rare cloaking devices but then not a hyperdrive. It would be the equivalent of building a stealth C-2 Greyhound. And yeah I could also see the utility of having a stealth transport for clandestine activities (a Rebel favorite), but then again I would also expect that craft to have a hyperdrive because otherwise it would have to rely on some other ship to get it in system which sort of defeats the point of the cloak.

Lets not kid ourselves, exactly zero thought went into this by the writers and director. Its a fun/frustrating exercise to shoe horn it into the world here on this board, but it is almost certainly a failure in story telling out of universe.

[GuppyShark]

In the very first movie of the franchise, they established you can sell a repulsorlift terrestrial landspeeder that was owned by a moisture farmer on a backwater planet for enough money to buy a hyperdrive-capable ship. Hyperdrives therefore cannot be meaningfully expensive. The only scenario in which a military force would buy or build a ship that does not have a hyperdrive is when you are an arrogant star empire that assumes you will always have local dominance.

[Crazedwraith]

In the very first movie of the franchise, they established you can sell a repulsorlift terrestrial landspeeder that was owned by a moisture farmer on a backwater planet for enough money to buy a hyperdrive-capable ship. Hyperdrives therefore cannot be meaningfully expensive. The only scenario in which a military force would buy or build a ship that does not have a hyperdrive is when you are an arrogant star empire that assumes you will always have local dominance.

Did it? The 'could almost buy a ship for that' was the price for the whole journey.

They sold Luke's speeder to pay the down payment with most money being due on reaching Alderaan IIRC.

[GuppyShark]

Yes. Luke was outraged because you could buy an entry level starship for the price Obi-wan threw at Solo.

EDIT: I have car in my backyard at the moment I'd be lucky to get $200 for, and it costs millions to get to orbit. Even if Luke would have had to sell two of his speeders to buy a ship, it's still amazingly cheap to buy an interstellar craft.

[Kojiro]

Hyperdrives are thousands of years old and the one they have on the transport (the one that Finn and Rose take) is explicitly noted in the ICS as being a small and easily built knock off. It looks to be no larger than a mini fridge.

The pod Rose and Finn take is off the end of this. It can hold 20 people plus crew seated but seems to have room for far more. The transports used to escape can hold sixty. Someone fucked up.

[Silver Jedi]

Can we get some canon confirmation that the transports don't have hyperdrive? All I see in this thread is TRR saying that they apparently don't. Wookipedia doesn't say anything one way or the other, and it frankly makes no sense. Other than some snubfighters where mass is at a premium, I can't think of a single other ship that doesn't have a hyperdrive. The Falcon has two!

[The Romulan Republic]

Can we get some canon confirmation that the transports don't have hyperdrive? All I see in this thread is TRR saying that they apparently don't. Wookipedia doesn't say anything one way or the other, and it frankly makes no sense. Other than some snubfighters where mass is at a premium, I can't think of a single other ship that doesn't have a hyperdrive. The Falcon has two!

You want to read the thread a bit more carefully.

I raised the possibility that they were not (which seems heavily implied by the fact that they didn't hyper out at the end of the space battle). Batman then confirmed that they were not, citing ICS:

Edit: For that matter... when did the last transport dock? Before or after Poe launched his attack on the dreadnought? If the transports aren't hypercapable (which seems to be the case)...

According to the ICS the bombers are hyper-capable while the transports are not.

[Galvatron]

In the very first movie of the franchise, they established you can sell a repulsorlift terrestrial landspeeder that was owned by a moisture farmer on a backwater planet for enough money to buy a hyperdrive-capable ship. Hyperdrives therefore cannot be meaningfully expensive. The only scenario in which a military force would buy or build a ship that does not have a hyperdrive is when you are an arrogant star empire that assumes you will always have local dominance.

Did it? The 'could almost buy a ship for that' was the price for the whole journey.

They sold Luke's speeder to pay the down payment with most money being due on reaching Alderaan IIRC.

Not to derail the thread, but I actually hoped that Obi-Wan was just playing dumb and really HAD heard of the Falcon. In fact, I hoped that she'd made a name for herself during the Clone Wars, which is why he was confident that it was worth the money versus some brand new Space Kia. The Falcon would therefore be like the droids in that it was present in all nine films, just with different owners.

Yeah, yeah, I know all the counterarguments by heart already...

[jollyreaper]

I don't think there's going to be big supporters of TLJ in ten or so years, the movie was way too bad. The prequels had 2 problems, Gungans and AOTC Anakin. The plot was good despite of that. The ST has a poor to no coherent plot.

I read a very convincing argument about how the prequels -- on paper, distilled to the bullet points -- are good. And if I squint very hard and push all memory from my mind, he's right. There's nothing wrong with those bullet points though we might quibble on certain things like meeting Anakin as a young child rather than a late teen like Luke. (I had to look that up. Luke's behavior seemed like a high school senior ready to graduate and see the world. He was actually 24 or 25 when filming started. Wow!) Where the prequels fell apart entirely was in the execution and I will include in that description the stuff that clearly should have been left out like Anakin making C3P0, Chewbacca knowing Yoda, the whole Jango Fett clone thing, etc.

But I don't doubt that the new trilogy will retain defenders. What I think will be telling in the 15 to 20 year analysis is if these films are seen as a rough patch before things got back on track or if they represent the top of the downward slope in a continuing slide in quality. So long as there's a franchise that's still making money, there are going to be defenders.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think they'll be seen as either "a rough patch before things got back on track", or "the top of the downward slope in a continuing slide in quality." Well, unless we start getting Star Trek-level mismanagement for a decade or more, which whatever the ST's detractors say, we really haven't, yet.

I think that we'll see the same cycle repeat again and again- fiercely split opinion on each new movie. Old fans mostly hate it, casual viewers mostly like it, some of them become new fans, who will then say that the new films are the best, and bash the next cycle for ruining the franchise.

[The Romulan Republic]

It actually doesn't matter if the last shuttles made it to the Raddus, because Leia would have still be right to leave a portion behind if it meant not putting the entire Rebel fleet and whatever portion had already made it off the base behind. There is no tactically logical way to make this work.

It would be right under some circumstances to abandon some force to save others. But when you don't have that many force to begin with, it might be seen as worth it to try to take a calculated risk to save as many as you can.

Remember when The DSII was discovered to be operational, an existential threat to the entire Rebel fleet, and Ackbar ordered a retreat that would have left the Rebels on Endor to their fate?

Remember when Lando talked him out of abandoning their only shot to destroy a genocidal weapon that likely would have rendered all their defenses impotent, and they consequently won the battle and the war?

Lando eventually pointed out there was a good reason to risk the fleet in that situation so that order was not carried out, but the whole point of the scene was for Leia to point out there was no such similar extenuating circumstances in the TLJ situation and the audience is obviously supposed to think she was right given the further (failed) attempts at Poe character building. So Leia is right, got it director, so why the hell is she not following through?

Possibly because she does not wish to abandon a significant percentage of what few forces she has, unless she has absolutely no choice?

It may also be that she's simply breaking down under the strain, and can't bear to lose even more lives if she has a chance to avert it. That would fit with her plea to Holdo when the latter remains behind near the end, that she can't take any more losses. In that case, Leia would have technically made the tactically wrong decision, or what she believed to be the wrong decision, but for very relatable and human reasons. Better generals have made worse decisions for worse reasons in real life.

Also I have no issue with the Raddus having non-hypercapable transports for ship to planet utility purposes. It makes perfect sense. I do find it odd, however, that such craft would have what the continuity has always declared to be super valuable and rare cloaking devices but then not a hyperdrive. It would be the equivalent of building a stealth C-2 Greyhound. And yeah I could also see the utility of having a stealth transport for clandestine activities (a Rebel favorite), but then again I would also expect that craft to have a hyperdrive because otherwise it would have to rely on some other ship to get it in system which sort of defeats the point of the cloak.

Has that been reintroduced in the new continuity, about cloaks being extremely rare?

In any case, these weren't "invisible to the naked eye" cloaks like the ones in The Thrawn Trilogy seem to be. More like just good sensor jamming, I guess. Which is probably a lot more common.

Lets not kid ourselves, exactly zero thought went into this by the writers and director. Its a fun/frustrating exercise to shoe horn it into the world here on this board, but it is almost certainly a failure in story telling out of universe.

I wouldn't say zero thought- there are some twists and foreshadowing and references in the film that are quite subtle and complex.

But I would say that they put perhaps too much thought into subverting audience expectations, and not enough into just telling the story that they wanted to tell.

But yes, I enjoy trying to fill in the blanks. I sometimes find a flawed film more rewarding in some ways than a masterpiece, because I enjoy analyzing and making sense of films for its own sake.

[CaoCao]

I don't think there's going to be big supporters of TLJ in ten or so years, the movie was way too bad. The prequels had 2 problems, Gungans and AOTC Anakin. The plot was good despite of that. The ST has a poor to no coherent plot.

I read a very convincing argument about how the prequels -- on paper, distilled to the bullet points -- are good. And if I squint very hard and push all memory from my mind, he's right. There's nothing wrong with those bullet points though we might quibble on certain things like meeting Anakin as a young child rather than a late teen like Luke. (I had to look that up. Luke's behavior seemed like a high school senior ready to graduate and see the world. He was actually 24 or 25 when filming started. Wow!)

For instance, in the worst prequel movie, TPM, we end up knowing:

- How Naboo is ruled.
- Which intelligent species inhabit Naboo.
- How Tatooine is ruled.
- How Tatooine is not part of the Republic and has its own currency.
- How the Republic is ruled and what are its problems (corruption and bureaucracy).
- How the Trade Federation operates.
- How the Jedi order works (we see padawans, masters, the Jedi Council and their policy on students age).
- How the Sith order works (rule of two).

Yes, I hated the Gungans and the comic relief battle droids. I guess Lucas was still in "this is a show for kids" mindset for that movie. It still managed to create a very good villain in Maul and made a massive wordbuilding for the remaining movies to step in.

If I recall right, wasn't Luke (not Mark Hamil, but his character) supposed to be around 18 by ANH?

Where the prequels fell apart entirely was in the execution and I will include in that description the stuff that clearly should have been left out like Anakin making C3P0, Chewbacca knowing Yoda, the whole Jango Fett clone thing, etc.

The temptation of making plot breaking cameos is common nowadays. Think of Rogue One, the R2D2 and C3PO cameo added nothing and put both droids in Yavin when most of the rebel forces (Tantive IV included) were enroute to Scarif. And C3PO didn't know about the rebellion in ANH.

But I don't doubt that the new trilogy will retain defenders. What I think will be telling in the 15 to 20 year analysis is if these films are seen as a rough patch before things got back on track or if they represent the top of the downward slope in a continuing slide in quality. So long as there's a franchise that's still making money, there are going to be defenders.

They have to be very inept to kill the franchise.

[Elfdart]

I wouldn't say zero thought- there are some twists and foreshadowing and references in the film that are quite subtle and complex.

But I would say that they put perhaps too much thought into subverting audience expectations, and not enough into just telling the story that they wanted to tell.

But yes, I enjoy trying to fill in the blanks. I sometimes find a flawed film more rewarding in some ways than a masterpiece, because I enjoy analyzing and making sense of films for its own sake.

They don't have a story. TFA was a bad cover band running through a medley of the real band's hits and TLJ was mostly more of the same, only with a few "surprises" that were anything but. Ten minutes into the movie and I felt like Mr Furious from Mystery Men, when he's heard The Sphinx's hollow platitudes dressed up like counter-intuitive wisdom once too often.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yaaaawwwwnnnn...

If you don't like the movies, that's your affair. I have a fair few complaints against both films myself. But to say that they "have no story" is ridiculous, as are many of the exaggerated and outright false "criticisms" leveled against them.

Sigh... its the fucking Prequels all over again. Its not enough for the whiney fans to dislike the movie. Its not even enough for them to be regarded as bad movies. No, they have to be completely irredeemable in every possible way.

And because we've been down this road before, its hard for me to take it seriously, or regard it as anything but extremely petty.

[Knife]

Yaaaawwwwnnnn...

If you don't like the movies, that's your affair. I have a fair few complaints against both films myself. But to say that they "have no story" is ridiculous, as are many of the exaggerated and outright false "criticisms" leveled against them.

Sigh... its the fucking Prequels all over again. Its not enough for the whiney fans to dislike the movie. Its not even enough for them to be regarded as bad movies. No, they have to be completely irredeemable in every possible way.

And because we've been down this road before, its hard for me to take it seriously, or regard it as anything but extremely petty.

Whaaaa! someone doesn't like what I like.


Been in this boat since 1977. They've gone down hill. TLJ was the first Star Wars movie I hated. The PT was hit or miss, but hell I still kind of like TPM. TLJ is one star wars movie I'm not sure I'll buy on...dvd/blue ray/insert media shit here. I have zero interest in buying this movie. I own TFA, hell I own everything but the holiday special. TLJ... finding it hard to wanna spend shit on it. I have an original (but highly used) toy MF, action figures out the ass, X wings, TIE's, merchandise from everything. Gotta love old school action figures with extendable lightsabers in their arms... lol. Find it hard to want to buy shit from TLJ. Bought two tickets and I think I'm done.

[Patroklos]

I guess Lucas was still in "this is a show for kids" mindset for that movie. It still managed to create a very good villain in Maul and made a massive wordbuilding for the remaining movies to step in.

What? Maul was a one movie mook who got zero character development and who we know nothing about. He is bog standard to include the stupid face paint and horns so we know he is a bad guy. He spends the whole movie doing precisely nothing in disconnected scenes. No detective work. Nothing clever. And then when he finally does show up for more than five seconds is just a stupid set piece that has zero impact on the the plot of the film. He just shows up, dies, and nothing else in the movie is affected due to this in any other way. Shit, it doesn't even matter to Anakin because Liam would have just trained him himself to probably the same end.

The best that can be said is that if you like light saber ballet you got some of that.

[Vympel]

For instance, in the worst prequel movie, TPM, we end up knowing:

- How Naboo is ruled.
- Which intelligent species inhabit Naboo.
- How Tatooine is ruled.
- How Tatooine is not part of the Republic and has its own currency.
- How the Republic is ruled and what are its problems (corruption and bureaucracy).
- How the Trade Federation operates.
- How the Jedi order works (we see padawans, masters, the Jedi Council and their policy on students age).
- How the Sith order works (rule of two).

Notice how absolutely none of that has anything to do with the quality of the movie's story or characters? Yes, TPM is a passable wookiepedia entry. None of it is relevant in even the slightest way to its merits as a film. Its totally tangential to making a good movie. It's just a bunch of random made-up facts for the fandom to catalog and then recite at each other in performative displays of their fandom.

[GuppyShark]

A plot needs a setting, the complaint is that the sequel trilogy has really struggled to establish one.

In a more general sense: Was there a similar backlash against TNG from TOS fans? It was before my time, but now TNG & DS9 seem to be the gold standard of ST.

[Vympel]

A plot needs a setting, the complaint is that the sequel trilogy has really struggled to establish one.

In a more general sense: Was there a similar backlash against TNG from TOS fans? It was before my time, but now TNG & DS9 seem to be the gold standard of ST.

There was a massive backlash. Watch 'Chaos on the Bridge' if you can. It talks about it a bit.

There's probably still some 90 year old TOS fan writing angry letters about how TNG isn't 'real' Star Trek.

As to the setting, I think that's down to a distinctly rose-colored glasses view of the OT. Heck TLJ shows us more of the galaxy than TESB does, but it has no real bearing on anything.

[GuppyShark]

Thanks for the tip. I fired it up, and Netflix AU has it so I'll be back later.

[Vympel]

Thanks for the tip. I fired it up, and Netflix AU has it so I'll be back later.

Yeah that's where I saw it. It's not really about that though, bear in mind.

[GuppyShark]

Yeah. it seems to be mostly about Gene, which would make it off topic for this thread and forum, but you have answered the question I asked.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yaaaawwwwnnnn...

If you don't like the movies, that's your affair. I have a fair few complaints against both films myself. But to say that they "have no story" is ridiculous, as are many of the exaggerated and outright false "criticisms" leveled against them.

Sigh... its the fucking Prequels all over again. Its not enough for the whiney fans to dislike the movie. Its not even enough for them to be regarded as bad movies. No, they have to be completely irredeemable in every possible way.

And because we've been down this road before, its hard for me to take it seriously, or regard it as anything but extremely petty.

Whaaaa! someone doesn't like what I like.


Been in this boat since 1977. They've gone down hill. TLJ was the first Star Wars movie I hated. The PT was hit or miss, but hell I still kind of like TPM. TLJ is one star wars movie I'm not sure I'll buy on...dvd/blue ray/insert media shit here. I have zero interest in buying this movie. I own TFA, hell I own everything but the holiday special. TLJ... finding it hard to wanna spend shit on it. I have an original (but highly used) toy MF, action figures out the ass, X wings, TIE's, merchandise from everything. Gotta love old school action figures with extendable lightsabers in their arms... lol. Find it hard to want to buy shit from TLJ. Bought two tickets and I think I'm done.

Oh go fuck yourself.

I'm not saying anyone has to like what I like.

I'm saying that I am so tired of this shit where no, its not enough to dislike the movies: No, they have to be completely bad in every possible way, to the point of ridiculous hyperbole and outright fabrications, and attacking anyone who does like them. I have seen lots of criticisms of TLJ which are flatly contradicted by on-screen evidence- which tells me that either people are lying, or they are seeing what they want/expect to see.

Its this kind of shit that gives fandom a bad name (well, that and the endless porno fanfics).

[Rogue 9]

And C3PO didn't know about the rebellion in ANH.

Really? "That is how we came to be in your service, if you take my meaning, sir." He totally knew. He was playing it down because he knew that knowledge was trouble. In the radio drama (now decanonized), Captain Antilles ordered C-3PO and R2 to conceal the fact that Leia was aboard the ship, which they did up until R2 showed the hologram to Obi-Wan.

[The Romulan Republic]

And I'll add that this fan whiner bullshit is to the direct detriment of the franchise, because if the ST has one overall failure, it is that the filmmakers appear far too concerned with trying to appease or respond to the angry fanbase.

A few innovative decisions aside, TFA was basically a two hour apology for the Prequels to the OT fans. And of course, it then got bashed for not being original enough.

TLJ replies by throwing out half of what TFA set up, making a theme of doing away with old things, and going out of its way to subvert and play with audience expectations- and gets bashed for not being enough like a proper Star Wars film.

And I am very much afraid that Disney will look at the whining and swing back the other way again, especially with Abrams back in the director's chair. The result: a stylistically, thematically, and narratively uneven franchise which vascilates whichever way the wind is blowing.

I've made my views on this clear before, but I'll restate it anyway: one of the worst things that a franchise can do is start listening to the fanbase. Because the fanbase is composed of millions of people, each with different and often contradictory and often changing tastes, many of whom will never be satisfied, because the latest film didn't check every single one of the boxes on their often-arbitrary personal list, and could not possible do so. Or simply because they decided the film would suck before it even came out, because they didn't like the last film or they don't like Disney or God knows why, and see what they expect to see.

Again: "written by committee" is seldom a compliment, and a fandom is simply a committee of millions lacking any of the structure or oversight that actual beurocracy generally enjoys.