Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[fractalsponge1]

"fan whiner bullshit"

There's several types of whining about the sequels
1) from some fringe element that thinks having non-white people in SW is anathema - they can go fuck themselves
2) uberfanboys that don't like their sacred cows getting slaughtered
3) people that don't like the movies because they think they are bad movies

Don't lump them all together, because that's a fucking stupid thing to do if you actually care about the franchise.

Disney has the marketing muscle and enough residual franchise strength on SW to make money off almost anything in the short term. But the long-term health of the franchise is going to depend on two things - building a new fanbase for new stories, and keeping the old fans who actually have the money on board.

As to a new fanbase, the sequels flopped in China. This is absolutely something Disney cares a huge amount about. But go figure. Maybe if they made better movies they would catch on. Making most of the plot a plothole isn't the way to do it. This gravy train is supposed to last for centuries right? So why the hell risk it by delegating to directors that come and go? This seems as much writing by committee as totally caving to sects of fans. Lucas was full of shit a lot of the time but at least he imposed some continuity on the overall creative process. LFL since he left seems to be unable to do so at least as far as the sequels are concerned. I think Johnson was right to tear up a fair bit of Abrams' crap from TFA, but regardless of if he was right or if you agree with him, why the hell was he allowed to do so in the first place? Isn't there a goddamn overall plan for this stuff?

Tied into this and the new fanbase side - the EU was full of total shit. But there was some genuinely good writing and art going on there. Taking some of the basics and rework it as a segue into totally new stuff would probably have been a better idea. Maybe you'll never get the old fans that grew up with OT and EU on board with new stories. But they are the ones that are going to be spending the real money keeping it all going unless there's the kind of quality that is going to hook a new generation of fans the same way as the OT.

[Vympel]

"fan whiner bullshit"

There's several types of whining about the sequels
1) from some fringe element that thinks having non-white people in SW is anathema - they can go fuck themselves
2) uberfanboys that don't like their sacred cows getting slaughtered
3) people that don't like the movies because they think they are bad movies

Don't lump them all together, because that's a fucking stupid thing to do if you actually care about the franchise.

Disney has the marketing muscle and enough residual franchise strength on SW to make money off almost anything in the short term. But the long-term health of the franchise is going to depend on two things - building a new fanbase for new stories, and keeping the old fans who actually have the money on board.

As to a new fanbase, the sequels flopped in China. This is absolutely something Disney cares a huge amount about. But go figure. Maybe if they made better movies they would catch on. Making most of the plot a plothole isn't the way to do it. This gravy train is supposed to last for centuries right? So why the hell risk it by delegating to directors that come and go? This seems as much writing by committee as totally caving to sects of fans. Lucas was full of shit a lot of the time but at least he imposed some continuity on the overall creative process. LFL since he left seems to be unable to do so at least as far as the sequels are concerned. I think Johnson was right to tear up a fair bit of Abrams' crap from TFA, but regardless of if he was right or if you agree with him, why the hell was he allowed to do so in the first place? Isn't there a goddamn overall plan for this stuff?

Tied into this and the new fanbase side - the EU was full of total shit. But there was some genuinely good writing and art going on there. Taking some of the basics and rework it as a segue into totally new stuff would probably have been a better idea. Maybe you'll never get the old fans that grew up with OT and EU on board with new stories. But they are the ones that are going to be spending the real money keeping it all going unless there's the kind of quality that is going to hook a new generation of fans the same way as the OT.

I just completely disagree with the claim that Johnson 'tore up' with Abrams did in TFA. These seem to be centered entirely around Rey's parentage and Snoke's identity, to which I say the following:

a. JJ Abrams never set up Rey to have auspicious or special parents. I used to believe this, but the more I read up on it, the move obvious it is that the fandom did that all by themselves. Rey's parents being nobody important was obvious to Daisy Ridley (in TFA - she said this at the time) and telegrpahed by Maz Kanata in the film itself. Further, JJ Abrams gave an interview on the Force before the film even came out, saying in no uncertain terms that he had no interest in the 'bloodlines' concept.

b. Snoke's identity is not intended to be some sort of puzzle for the films to unravel. I'd believe this if anything in TFA (e.g. any sort of character making a remark about it - like Rey's family!) indicated this was some sort of unresolved question to be answered, but it simply doesn't. He's a supporting character to drive the actual antagonist's (Ben) plot forward, nothing more.

[fractalsponge1]

It's either Johnson decided to burn all of Abrams' macguffins or bad storytelling. Either way it doesn't inspire confidence. I suppose we are not likely to know in the near future.

OT could get away with stuff like that (i.e. what Sith are or who the Emperor is), because it's the first time we've seen any of it. The sequels are explicitly in the same timeline, so questions like "where did that come from?" are much more important to see fleshed out.

[Knife]

Oh go fuck yourself.

I'm not saying anyone has to like what I like.

I'm saying that I am so tired of this shit where no, its not enough to dislike the movies: No, they have to be completely bad in every possible way, to the point of ridiculous hyperbole and outright fabrications, and attacking anyone who does like them. I have seen lots of criticisms of TLJ which are flatly contradicted by on-screen evidence- which tells me that either people are lying, or they are seeing what they want/expect to see.

Its this kind of shit that gives fandom a bad name (well, that and the endless porno fanfics).

As opposed to you coming in every time with a long sob story about how you ride the middle and if you look at it side wards long enough it was actually ok. The show, in a lot of peoples opinion, was ridiculous and an outright mockery of earlier movies. No matter how you try to massage it, those people are going to have that opinion. You don't. We get it.

At some point, with a thing subjective like art, you let it go man. You're every bit as guilty of feeding into this as someone who is typing 'I hate it' on every page. People who hate it can play the "if fans like RR will accept anything, no wonder the movies are shit and fandom is dumb."

It goes both ways. Your opinion on it is no more objective than any other.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh go fuck yourself.

I'm not saying anyone has to like what I like.

I'm saying that I am so tired of this shit where no, its not enough to dislike the movies: No, they have to be completely bad in every possible way, to the point of ridiculous hyperbole and outright fabrications, and attacking anyone who does like them. I have seen lots of criticisms of TLJ which are flatly contradicted by on-screen evidence- which tells me that either people are lying, or they are seeing what they want/expect to see.

Its this kind of shit that gives fandom a bad name (well, that and the endless porno fanfics).

As opposed to you coming in every time with a long sob story about how you ride the middle and if you look at it side wards long enough it was actually ok. The show, in a lot of peoples opinion, was ridiculous and an outright mockery of earlier movies. No matter how you try to massage it, those people are going to have that opinion. You don't. We get it.

Having a different opinion on a film than you, or giving a film a second viewing before making a snap judgment, is "a long sob story", now? But I get it: You can't win on facts, so you try to demean and ridicule me personally.

And I reiterate: Go fuck yourself, with a side of "Go kiss my ass".

At some point, with a thing subjective like art, you let it go man. You're every bit as guilty of feeding into this as someone who is typing 'I hate it' on every page. People who hate it can play the "if fans like RR will accept anything, no wonder the movies are shit and fandom is dumb."

You're going to "both sides" this?

I have never claimed that everyone has to like the film. I have never attacked anyone simply for disliking it. I have criticized people for making ridiculous and false arguments, engaging in absurd hyperbole, and trying to cover it up with personal attacks when called on it. And will continue to do so.

Nor is it fair to say that I "will accept anything"- I have had some rather harsh things to say in the past about Phantom Menace, The Clone Wars film, and TFA and TLJ, for that matter (even if I did not think the flaws ultimately outweighed the positives on the last two). I simply have a different view of the ST than you do. "Different standards" is not the same as "No standards". More on that in a moment.

But I have no interest in continuing this discussion if you persist in trying to shift the topic from a debate on the merits of the film, to a debate on the merits of me as a fan, critic, or poster.

It goes both ways. Your opinion on it is no more objective than any other.

My personal enjoyment is not purely objective, no, but what factually appeared on-screen is. And I have seen attacks on this film making objectively false or misleading claims repeatedly. Including not only about what was on-screen, but about the film's box office success (as if that is or ever was a measure of artistic quality), and about Disney supposedly pressuring reviewers (though that one was quickly retracted). And that's just on this board.

Edit: Likewise, the claim that started this exchange (before you joined in) that the films "have no story". That's hyperbolic at best.

[The Romulan Republic]

And yeah, sure, we can say "Its all subjective, just let it go." We can just stop discussing the point altogether. Hell, why don't we close down this whole forum while we're at it, if that's the best defense you can offer.

That sounds to me, though, a lot like an admission that you can't defend your position on the merits of the evidence. Or at any rate are unwilling to do so.

[The Romulan Republic]

"fan whiner bullshit"

There's several types of whining about the sequels
1) from some fringe element that thinks having non-white people in SW is anathema - they can go fuck themselves
2) uberfanboys that don't like their sacred cows getting slaughtered
3) people that don't like the movies because they think they are bad movies

Don't lump them all together, because that's a fucking stupid thing to do if you actually care about the franchise.

No, they're not all the same, but they sometimes overlap, and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?).

Disney has the marketing muscle and enough residual franchise strength on SW to make money off almost anything in the short term. But the long-term health of the franchise is going to depend on two things - building a new fanbase for new stories, and keeping the old fans who actually have the money on board.

In terms of fans willing to buy tickets:

Well, at the box office, TLJ scores lower-middle of the pack adjusted for inflation at the North American box office. Not adjusted for inflation, its world-wide box office is second only to TFA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... erformance

Of course, box office gross says fuck all about artistic quality, but when discussing the financially viability of the franchise, its highly relevant.

Face it: No matter how much die-hard internet OT fans hate the new films, they keep making money.

As to a new fanbase, the sequels flopped in China. This is absolutely something Disney cares a huge amount about.

No doubt. But see above.

And frankly, I can stand the films not selling well in China, if it means that the studio feels less pressure to bow to Chinese government censors.

But go figure. Maybe if they made better movies they would catch on.

This is bordering on an appeal to popularity fallacy.

Making most of the plot a plothole isn't the way to do it. This gravy train is supposed to last for centuries right? So why the hell risk it by delegating to directors that come and go? This seems as much writing by committee as totally caving to sects of fans. Lucas was full of shit a lot of the time but at least he imposed some continuity on the overall creative process. LFL since he left seems to be unable to do so at least as far as the sequels are concerned. I think Johnson was right to tear up a fair bit of Abrams' crap from TFA, but regardless of if he was right or if you agree with him, why the hell was he allowed to do so in the first place? Isn't there a goddamn overall plan for this stuff?

Disney management does seem a little adrift, and that concerns me. But they may be correcting course now, since they've given both Ryan Johnson and the GoT guys long-term multi-film deals.

Of course, we also will have to wait on the next ST film to see how well it meshes, or not, with TLJ.

Tied into this and the new fanbase side - the EU was full of total shit. But there was some genuinely good writing and art going on there. Taking some of the basics and rework it as a segue into totally new stuff would probably have been a better idea. Maybe you'll never get the old fans that grew up with OT and EU on board with new stories. But they are the ones that are going to be spending the real money keeping it all going unless there's the kind of quality that is going to hook a new generation of fans the same way as the OT.

A lot of the old EU has been reintroduced. Including some things (see Mon Cal. cruisers being converted passenger liners) that I really could have done with out.

[fractalsponge1]

In terms of fans willing to buy tickets:

Well, at the box office, TLJ scores lower-middle of the pack adjusted for inflation at the North American box office. Not adjusted for inflation, its world-wide box office is second only to TFA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... erformance

Of course, box office gross says fuck all about artistic quality, but when discussing the financially viability of the franchise, its highly relevant.

Face it: No matter how much die-hard internet OT fans hate the new films, they keep making money.

That's not where the money is. It's in all the associated material, toys, etc. The box office receipts will pay for the movie and give a single glug of profit, but long term it's all the other stuff. And I'm willing to bet OT stuff sells better than PT and ST material. But really long term, whether that pans out is whether people feel invested in the movies. *Right now*, I'll bet money that OT fans are where the margins are at, since they are now old enough to have the money to blow on much more expensive merchandise. If you can't hook people on the ST, that pattern will not repeat as well.

And I already said Disney can force these movies to make money, but if they don't back marketing with quality and consistent quality then it will eventually turn off.

A lot of the old EU has been reintroduced. Including some things (see Mon Cal. cruisers being converted passenger liners) that I really could have done with out.

I didn't mean as a new EU, I meant as a source of movie material and a new consistent set of stories that the canon reboot allows for. Right now it seems like old EU stuff is being reintroduced piecemeal, which goes back to my point about the overall story and content oversight not being strong.

[Knife]

Having a different opinion on a film than you, or giving a film a second viewing before making a snap judgment, is "a long sob story", now? But I get it: You can't win on facts, so you try to demean and ridicule me personally.

And I reiterate: Go fuck yourself, with a side of "Go kiss my ass".

And everyone who disagree's did a "snap judgment"?

And no, I've put my opinion on the flaws of this film pages ago and left it at that. Pretty much every page has you being a mushy middle in it but even then I didn't chime in until you became condescending as fuck.

You're going to "both sides" this?

I have never claimed that everyone has to like the film. I have never attacked anyone simply for disliking it. I have criticized people for making ridiculous and false arguments, engaging in absurd hyperbole, and trying to cover it up with personal attacks when called on it. And will continue to do so.

Your condescending as hell, you equate people who don't like the film with radical political positions. You are lumping serious shit together with trivial shit.

Nor is it fair to say that I "will accept anything"- I have had some rather harsh things to say in the past about Phantom Menace, The Clone Wars film, and TFA and TLJ, for that matter (even if I did not think the flaws ultimately outweighed the positives on the last two). I simply have a different view of the ST than you do. "Different standards" is not the same as "No standards". More on that in a moment.

But I have no interest in continuing this discussion if you persist in trying to shift the topic from a debate on the merits of the film, to a debate on the merits of me as a fan, critic, or poster.

Again, I put my two cents in earlier, and the pile of shit is still swirling. I have no interest in going in circles about nazi's and people who just don't like the film. I have no interest in listening to more pages of justifications on why a plot hole isn't a plot hole, or I'm just to dumb to get it. It's gone full circle in this thread.

My personal enjoyment is not purely objective, no, but what factually appeared on-screen is. And I have seen attacks on this film making objectively false or misleading claims repeatedly. Including not only about what was on-screen, but about the film's box office success (as if that is or ever was a measure of artistic quality), and about Disney supposedly pressuring reviewers (though that one was quickly retracted). And that's just on this board.

Edit: Likewise, the claim that started this exchange (before you joined in) that the films "have no story". That's hyperbolic at best.

Oh please, interpretation of statistics isn't false claims. You can make an argument that analysis of the data on ticket sales could be misleading, but you don't do that by saying "Your analysis is false and misleading because I say so."

[Knife]

No, they're not all the same, but they sometimes overlap, and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?).

This, you swarmy ass. WHO are these 'alt reich' types. Are they in this thread? This board? Name the motherfuckers. Because when you don't you imply we are these alt reich types because we don't like this film.

[The Romulan Republic]

That's not where the money is. It's in all the associated material, toys, etc. The box office receipts will pay for the movie and give a single glug of profit, but long term it's all the other stuff. And I'm willing to bet OT stuff sells better than PT and ST material. But really long term, whether that pans out is whether people feel invested in the movies. *Right now*, I'll bet money that OT fans are where the margins are at, since they are now old enough to have the money to blow on much more expensive merchandise. If you can't hook people on the ST, that pattern will not repeat as well.

And I already said Disney can force these movies to make money, but if they don't back marketing with quality and consistent quality then it will eventually turn off.

Thank you for clarifying.

And yes, merchandise sales certainly matter. I haven't seen any stats. off-hand for merchandise sales for the ST- that would be useful information to have when discussing the viability of the franchise long-term. As to weather it will acquire a long-term older fan base willing to shell out the big bucks on merchandise, though... that's a question we won't know the answer to for a while, I expect. It may be that the younger generations, who's introduction to Star Wars is the newer films, may fill that niche someday- but maybe not for ten or twenty years.

One thing I can say: catering only to OT fans who hate the new material will make it almost certain that said fanbase dies off over the next few decades.

But it may be that there will never be quite the same devoted fanbase as the OT had- not because the new material is objectively worse, or widely despised by younger viewers, but simply because inevitably, no new Star Wars film will ever be as fresh, as original, as unique as A New Hope was.

I didn't mean as a new EU, I meant as a source of movie material and a new consistent set of stories that the canon reboot allows for. Right now it seems like old EU stuff is being reintroduced piecemeal, which goes back to my point about the overall story and content oversight not being strong.

Ah.

I do think more consistent oversight would be for the best. I take some encouragement, however, from Ryan Johnson and the GoT guys being signed on for multi-film series, rather than changing directors/writers every film (or part way through production), as has been the rule thus far. We'll see if that has a stabilizing effect- I hope so.

But as to drawing on the old EU for film material- while that would likely cater to the wishes of many older fans (though also alienate many when, inevitably, the material being adapted was not exactly the same), it would have to be done very selectively. A lot of the old EU was... not good, and a lot of it wouldn't really have worked for a new film series, I suspect.

I think that, as painful as it may be to loose certain things, just ditching the old EU outright was largely for the best, when it came to the films.

Although, I do think there is far more of KotOR in the ST than most people give credit for.

[The Romulan Republic]

And everyone who disagree's did a "snap judgment"?

I never said that.

You mocked me for taking me time before making up my mind on the film, implying that I was somehow being disingenuous in doing so:

As opposed to you coming in every time with a long sob story about how you ride the middle and if you look at it side wards long enough it was actually okay.

I pointed out that it was ridiculous to attack someone for actually giving the film a second viewing before making up their mind on it.

You, being a lying cum bucket who has decided to try to hijack this thread into a debate on me personally, then spun that as "Anyone who disagrees with me is making a snap judgement." But I never said that. You just pulled it out of your ass.

And no, I've put my opinion on the flaws of this film pages ago and left it at that. Pretty much every page has you being a mushy middle in it but even then I didn't chime in until you became condescending as fuck.

Having a more nuanced position on the film than "Pure adulation" or "Pure hate" is grounds for a personal attack now?

What am I saying? Of course it is.

Your condescending as hell, you equate people who don't like the film with radical political positions. You are lumping serious shit together with trivial shit.

I am often told I am condescending when I do not mean to be, so you may be right on that score (though your other accusations and insults make me more inclined to think that this is simply part of your strategy of turning the thread from a debate on the merits of TLJ to a debate on the merits of TRR).

But I have never said that anyone who dislikes the film is guilty of political extremism. This is a lie, or else you simply assuming that that is what I'm doing and interpreting everything I say in the most negative possible light.

Again, I put my two cents in earlier, and the pile of shit is still swirling. I have no interest in going in circles about nazi's and people who just don't like the film. I have no interest in listening to more pages of justifications on why a plot hole isn't a plot hole, or I'm just to dumb to get it. It's gone full circle in this thread.

Some of the criticism is from Right-winger and knee-jerk bashers. Do you hear me? Some. Not all, some.

Oh please, interpretation of statistics isn't false claims.

Not necessarily, but there comes a point where you're stretching an "interpretation to the point of being disingenuous.

You can make an argument that analysis of the data on ticket sales could be misleading, but you don't do that by saying "Your analysis is false and misleading because I say so."

If I did that, that would be a problem.

If I said that.

No, they're not all the same, but they sometimes overlap, and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?).

This, you swarmy ass. WHO are these 'alt reich' types. Are they in this thread? This board? Name the motherfuckers. Because when you don't you imply we are these alt reich types because we don't like this film.

Blow it our your ass.

I am not implying that anyone here is an "Alt. Reich type". My statement meant exactly what I said. Do you dispute that some of the attacks on this film are politically motivated?

All I see here, despite my repeatedly calling it out, and my best efforts to steer the discussion back on track, is a determined effort, yet again, to change the topic of the thread from a debate on the subject at hand, to a debate on me personally.


Good day.

[CaoCao]

I am not implying that anyone here is an "Alt. Reich type".

What are these Alt. Reich types? You're against them and your sign speaks against russkies but, say, do you support the anti-russian ukrainian government? Just to understand wtf we're talking about.

[CaoCao]

On a more related note, there are claims of TLJ having taking inspiration (as in plagiarizing) a fan fiction. Haven't read it so I can't make an opinion.

Linky:

http://archiveofourown.org/series/413710

[Galvatron]

I predicted that Revenge of the Sith would be the name of Episode III because it was logical. LFL clearly stole the idea from me.

The sheer volume of fan fiction stories written over the past 40 years makes it inevitable that there will be coincidental similarities between them and the real thing.

[GuppyShark]

On a more related note, there are claims of TLJ having taking inspiration (as in plagiarizing) a fan fiction. Haven't read it so I can't make an opinion.

Linky:

http://archiveofourown.org/series/413710

Two weeks after TFA came out, I wrote a fanfiction called Signs and Smoke Signals that ended up having some really freaky similarities between the story and The Last Jedi in terms of Rey's origins, Phasma's staff, and the whole Snoke plot. My friend wrote an article about the similarities that I posted on my friend's website, intending only to share it with people who read the story and also noticed the similarities. Unfortunately, that went viral, with people claiming that I intend to sue Disney and Rian Johnson for "plagiarizing my work" so I can make millions.

Umm...yeah. That's not true. It's just fanfic, guys. If you still want to read the story, please feel free, but as you can see from the description, TLJ this is not.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

HISHE just released their take:



Definitely worth a look!

[Vympel]

HISHE just released their take:



Definitely worth a look!

The 'Darth Plagueis' bit was my favorite. Leaving aside the usual plot hole stuff, a lot of it movies seems to be poking fun at shallow fan wish fulfillment fantasies and it's pretty hilarious seeing all the unironic "this is better than the movie!" comments.

[Galvatron]

Whether you liked the movie or not, it seems that it didn't sell many toys:

[The Romulan Republic]

I am not implying that anyone here is an "Alt. Reich type".

What are these Alt. Reich types? You're against them and your sign speaks against russkies but, say, do you support the anti-russian ukrainian government? Just to understand wtf we're talking about.

I have said absolutely nothing about Russia in this thread or any other TLJ-related thread to the best of my recollection. It is you, not I, who made a link between my comments about the Alt. Reich, and Russia (while falsely implying that I was doing so). And you, I might add, who just posted a slur for Russians, not I (while implying that my sig-a 150-plus year old Lincoln quote which focusses primarily on American politics-is Russophobic).

I am happy to debate the subject of Russian hacking and election interference with anyone who wishes in the News and Politics forum, where it belongs, but it has nothing to do with TLJ, and I can see no reason to bring it up other than an attempt to bait me, or to derail the thread.

In fact, considering that this post has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread, but is focused entirely on criticizing/questioning me over my views on an unrelated topic- could we get a moderator ruling on weather this post constitutes a violation of the vendetta rule?

[The Romulan Republic]

On a more related note, there are claims of TLJ having taking inspiration (as in plagiarizing) a fan fiction. Haven't read it so I can't make an opinion.

Linky:

http://archiveofourown.org/series/413710

Yeah, you haven't read it, but that won't stop you from spreading the rumor of plagiarism to try to undermine a man's reputation and career because he made a film you didn't like.

Hell, with how many fanfictions there are now, its practically inevitable that there would be some similarities to some of them in the film, even if only by pure chance.

Edit: Especially since, as quoted above, the fic's own author says its not plagiarized.

[CaoCao]

I am not implying that anyone here is an "Alt. Reich type".

What are these Alt. Reich types? You're against them and your sign speaks against russkies but, say, do you support the anti-russian ukrainian government? Just to understand wtf we're talking about.

I have said absolutely nothing about Russia in this thread or any other TLJ-related thread to the best of my recollection. It is you, not I, who made a link between my comments about the Alt. Reich, and Russia (while falsely implying that I was doing so). And you, I might add, who just posted a slur for Russians, not I (while implying that my sig-a 150-plus year old Lincoln quote which focusses primarily on American politics-is Russophobic).

I am happy to debate the subject of Russian hacking and election interference with anyone who wishes in the News and Politics forum, where it belongs, but it has nothing to do with TLJ, and I can see no reason to bring it up other than an attempt to bait me, or to derail the thread.

In fact, considering that this post has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread, but is focused entirely on criticizing/questioning me over my views on an unrelated topic- could we get a moderator ruling on weather this post constitutes a violation of the vendetta rule?

I don't care about the hacking stuff, or your opinion on Russia (I asked about Ukraine, but I'll let you dodge it). You're being nebulous about what Alt. Reich means, and you bring it way too often. It is you, not anyone else playing politics here.

On a more related note, there are claims of TLJ having taking inspiration (as in plagiarizing) a fan fiction. Haven't read it so I can't make an opinion.

Linky:

http://archiveofourown.org/series/413710

Two weeks after TFA came out, I wrote a fanfiction called Signs and Smoke Signals that ended up having some really freaky similarities between the story and The Last Jedi in terms of Rey's origins, Phasma's staff, and the whole Snoke plot. My friend wrote an article about the similarities that I posted on my friend's website, intending only to share it with people who read the story and also noticed the similarities. Unfortunately, that went viral, with people claiming that I intend to sue Disney and Rian Johnson for "plagiarizing my work" so I can make millions.

Umm...yeah. That's not true. It's just fanfic, guys. If you still want to read the story, please feel free, but as you can see from the description, TLJ this is not.

[sarcasm] God, I didn't read that part [/sarcasm]

Yeap, I read it, and still found it interesting to bring. In my opinion, be it that Johnson copied the "sold for drinking money" part or not, it was stupid (you know, one of the plot points in TLJ was fuel, and her parents burned quite a few just to get to a bar).

[The Romulan Republic]

I am "dodging" nothing- Neither Russia nor the Ukraine is the topic of this thread, and I am under no obligation to explain or defend any position on either of them in this thread.* You want to talk about that, make a thread in the News and Politics forum. I will not address any further posts on that subject.

As to what I mean by "Alt. Reich", it should be fairly obvious to which political movements I am referring, but I'll lay it out anyway: I use the term "Alt. Reich" to refer to a broad collection of reactionary Right-wing groups, generally based on bigotry and a misplaced belief that white people/men/conservatives/etc. are the "real" victims of persecution (by Leftists/women/minorities/"SJWs"). Because "Alt. Right" gave them a sense of mainstream legitimacy that they did not deserve.

The underlying attitude they have in common could probably be summed up as "Society is a zero-sum game played along demographic lines, where only one demographic can win."- though I doubt most of them could or would phrase it that directly, or articulately. With white people, especially white male conservatives, generally treated as the "norm", and any success outside of "traditional" roles by anyone from another group presumed to be at the expense of a more deserving white man. Or, to put it even more succinctly "I've got mine, fuck everyone else."

I bring it up here because some (not all, some) of the attacks that have been made against TLJ are reminiscent of Alt. Reich narratives (though not so much on this site as some other places). Not always by people who are politically extremist in general, either- one of the nasty things about the Alt. Reich is that it tends to be very good at hijacking other peoples' subcultures to its agenda, and getting people who normally know better to repeat its narrative.

It was not meant, ever, to insinuate that everyone who criticizes TLJ is part of this movement- that is a straw man based on either an honest misinterpretation, or an attempt to derail the thread into personal attacks.

Reg. plagiarism: So you read the author saying that it wasn't like TLJ, and you still peddled the rumour that it might be plagiarism anyway?

Fuck you.

*Edit: Indeed, I would be guilty of derailing the thread if I entertained this absurd attempt at highjacking any further.

[ray245]

I bring it up here because some (not all, some) of the attacks that have been made against TLJ are reminiscent of Alt. Reich narratives (though not so much on this site as some other places). Not always by people who are politically extremist in general, either- one of the nasty things about the Alt. Reich is that it tends to be very good at hijacking other peoples' subcultures to its agenda, and getting people who normally know better to repeat its narrative.

It was not meant, ever, to insinuate that everyone who criticizes TLJ is part of this movement- that is a straw man based on either an honest misinterpretation, or an attempt to derail the thread into personal attacks.

What on earth is the point of bringing it up? I think everyone in this discussion is well aware of who the alt-right are and how they are attempting to hijack the discussion on SW. You're telling a forum that's quite aware of this fact.

Bringing up a point that's obvious to everyone is just plain silly and can be seen as a disguised attack on your opponents. It's like saying "I know you aren't a Nazi, but the Nazi were also people criticising communism". That's what you sound like to people, whether you intend to do so or not.

[The Romulan Republic]

I bring it up here because some (not all, some) of the attacks that have been made against TLJ are reminiscent of Alt. Reich narratives (though not so much on this site as some other places). Not always by people who are politically extremist in general, either- one of the nasty things about the Alt. Reich is that it tends to be very good at hijacking other peoples' subcultures to its agenda, and getting people who normally know better to repeat its narrative.

It was not meant, ever, to insinuate that everyone who criticizes TLJ is part of this movement- that is a straw man based on either an honest misinterpretation, or an attempt to derail the thread into personal attacks.

What on earth is the point of bringing it up? I think everyone in this discussion is well aware of who the alt-right are and how they are attempting to hijack the discussion on SW. You're telling a forum that's quite aware of this fact.

Bringing up a point that's obvious to everyone is just plain silly and can be seen as a disguised attack on your opponents. It's like saying "I know you aren't a Nazi, but the Nazi were also people criticising communism". That's what you sound like to people, whether you intend to do so or not.

I'll try not to bring it up when its not relevant, but I can see at least a couple scenarios I've run into where it would be, even if no one posting here is a member of that particular ideology.

1. If people are unwittingly repeating Alt. Reich-ist rhetoric (As I've said before, they're good at dominating the discourse, and co-opting other peoples' ideas/sub-cultures). For example, you'll see lots of people who don't carry Tiki torches and Swastikas, and probably don't even like Donald Trump, casually repeating stuff about "SJWs" (a slur with connotations of a Left-wing campaign to oppress and persecute whites/men/conservatives). Or suggesting that (insert character here) was just cast for political reasons, without really presenting any evidence for why they believe that to be the case (though we don't get that one much on this board).

2. When discussing weather the level of criticism directed towards TLJ is indicative of the film's quality, or of an overall negative audience response. In that case, the presence of ulterior motives behind some of that criticism is relevant, especially since the most obnoxious voices tend to dominate the debate, even if they're not the majority.

I promise you, if I think that a specific person is motivated by Alt. Reich sympathies, I shan't hesitate to state so very directly. If I am not stating so directly, then I am not accusing anyone here.