Attack Of The Clones... Damnit.

[stormthebeaches]

Oh good point. So Kay had even more exposure and time to understand Micheal and his family before still deciding to marry him. After he became Hutt Don.

At the beginning of the film Micheal makes it clear that he wants nothing to do with the family business. It is only after a rival mafia attempts to assassinate his father and he gets beaten up by a corrupt cop that he starts getting involved.

No, what I'm saying, I already said. The Tusken kids that Anakin killed are going to grow up to kidnap and torture someone elses mom. Anakin realizes this and easily could have been used to further fuel Anakin's rage.

This still doesn't justify the atrocity he committed. And there has to be more to Tusken society than murdering, torture and kidnapping people. Their society would be unable to sustain itself otherwise. For all we know, it could have only been a small minority of the Tusken's who were torturing her.

A choice that he didn't have to make. Even Sonny and Tom at that point were still trying to dissuade him from doing so. They were going to handle things, but Mike made the VERY rational decision "It's business, not personal" to take an active roll and become a killer and drug pusher and pimp etc. Keep in mind that Mike killing the police officer and Solotzo (?) took place days, maybe even a few weeks after his father was shot. Mike also had a very large family base to use as support. It doesn't even come close to Shmi dying in Anakin's arms, her being the only family he ever knew, and going on his killing spree literally SECONDS after Shmi actually died.

Mike was worried about his families safety. He may not have liked his families business but he still felt that it was his duty to protect his family. Besides, Mike killed people who actually deserved it (a corrupt cop and a mafia boss) whilst Anakin murdered children.

And learn to read. My point about Mike joining the Marines was not a jab at his character dumbass, but showing that it was not a normal life (the life Tom, Sonny, Vito, Fredo, his mother and the rest of the family wanted for him) Mike wanted for himself.

Mike probably joined the marines out of a sense of patriotic duty. "I want to live a normal life but first I must do my duty to my country". You are aware that the majority of the soldiers in WW2 went on to lead normal lives after the war, right? Just because Mike joined the marines it does not mean that he didn't want a normal life.

Oh you are a fucking idiot. NO ONE IS SAYING IT IS OK DIPSHIT. Are you purposely ignoring the circumstances Anakin was in? The emotional stress of the moment he faced just seconds before? The overall circumstances of his life at the moment?

Which is why he needed immediate psychiatric help.

CIRCUMSTANCES. Fuck you are a thick brick. What caused Anakin to snap, is something that can literally NEVER happen again, because his mother is now dead. The only way that anything remotely the same could happen again, is if someone pretty fucking evil spent like, over a decade manipulating his mind and actions and influencing him with some sort of external... force and make him think the same thing might happen to Padme... Oh wait.

You are aware that most soldiers who commit atrocities have nasty post tramatic stress syndrome afterwards right? The idea that someone can massacre a whole village and be perfectly okay mentally afterwards is comical. Are you really that ignorant about basic human psychology?

However, even ignoring the fact that Anakin would probably be suffering PTSD for the rest of his life there is still the fact that he could snap again if he lost another person who was important to him. Like say, his wife? Oh wait.

That reply has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Are you just plagiarizing what Channel has already said and then doing a piss poor job of figuring out where to copy/paste it?

What Channel said is absolutely correct. Meeting someone when they are nine and meeting them again ten years later IS like meeting two entirely different people. Are you really trying to tell me that Padme was in love with a child she meet ten years ago? So love struck that she couldn't see that the object of her affections has obviously changed into a monster?

Wow it is great that you would imagine that, BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT HAPPENED FUCK HEAD. Padme wasn't horrified, we saw that. Or maybe she was and figured that moment might not be the best time to chastise Anakin and a shoulder to cry on was what he needed at the moment since his mom just died in his arms and he committed a heinous act as retribution that he can't seem to come to grips with.

Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to chastise Anakin. What she should have is inform the Jedi council, or at least Obi Wan about Anakin's actions.

And Anakin didn't just accidentally save her planet... he was THE KEY component in allowing Padme to even get to Coruscant, let alone get back to Naboo. Then he did, what no other pilot was even capable of doing unless you are going to say that Ben Burtt was going to fly through the TF droid control ship?
Without Anakin's courage and bravery and complete lack of worrying about his own well being, he wouldn't have been in a position to 'accidentally' destroy the droid control ship.

Of course the only reason they were reliant on Anakin to get them off Tattoine was because of plot induced stupidity. But regardless, I'll conceed this point.

As for the whole tribe taking part in the actual torture, I never said they were. If the EU crap is to be believed, then in fact the whole tribe was reaping the benefits of her torture, and certainly, EU or no, no one was opposed to it.

That EU crap sounds like, crap. Besides, even if no one was actively opposed to the torture it still does not make it okay to kill them all. By that logic it is okay to kill all white people in 1980's South Africa.

I really can't understand how you fucking idiots can ignore the circumstances that led to Anakin killing the Tuskens. The only conclusion I can come to, is that you all have shitball mothers that you don't give two fucks about.

Oh, I understand the circumstances perfectly. It still doesn't make it okay for Padme to be okay with it.

[stormthebeaches]

You are an idiot. It is not a group of people coming to the conclusion that it is best to wipe them out. (Something which clearly never happens) It is one distraught teenager who just had his mom die in his arms because the people in question tortured her to death.

Many people in this thread are pointing to the bad aspects of Tusken culture as a justification for why Anakin did what he did. And its not just this thread, I have gotten into plenty of arguments about this topic on other boards where people say "The Tuskens had a history of savagery therefore it is okay to wipe them all out."

[Havok]

Oh good point. So Kay had even more exposure and time to understand Micheal and his family before still deciding to marry him. After he became Hutt Don.

At the beginning of the film Micheal makes it clear that he wants nothing to do with the family business. It is only after a rival mafia attempts to assassinate his father and he gets beaten up by a corrupt cop that he starts getting involved.

I love how you keep pointing out that he kills a corrupt cop like that makes any difference. Not to mention his father is a fucking MURDERER. How can you sit here with a straight fucking face and defend Micheal Corleone's actions, but not understand Anakin's motivations for his actions.

But YES I KNOW THESE THINGS. Havok says: Kay is fucking naive.

No, what I'm saying, I already said. The Tusken kids that Anakin killed are going to grow up to kidnap and torture someone elses mom. Anakin realizes this and easily could have been used to further fuel Anakin's rage.

This still doesn't justify the atrocity he committed. And there has to be more to Tusken society than murdering, torture and kidnapping people. Their society would be unable to sustain itself otherwise. For all we know, it could have only been a small minority of the Tusken's who were torturing her.

You fucking imbecile. NOT ONE PERSON IN THIS THREAD IS TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHAT ANAKIN DID. They are trying to explain, from a character and In Universe perspective WHY he did it. There is not one person defending the action itself.

A choice that he didn't have to make. Even Sonny and Tom at that point were still trying to dissuade him from doing so. They were going to handle things, but Mike made the VERY rational decision "It's business, not personal" to take an active roll and become a killer and drug pusher and pimp etc. Keep in mind that Mike killing the police officer and Solotzo (?) took place days, maybe even a few weeks after his father was shot. Mike also had a very large family base to use as support. It doesn't even come close to Shmi dying in Anakin's arms, her being the only family he ever knew, and going on his killing spree literally SECONDS after Shmi actually died.

Mike was worried about his families safety. He may not have liked his families business but he still felt that it was his duty to protect his family. Besides, Mike killed people who actually deserved it (a corrupt cop and a mafia boss) whilst Anakin murdered children.

So it is understandable for Mike to become the head of a crime family that is responsible for hundreds of deaths,(including many innocent ones) prostitution, gambling and all sorts of other illegal acts, because his dad got shot and his brother got killed, both who were also MURDERING CRIMINALS, but it is totally incomprehensible for Anakin to snap and kill, in a emotionally unstable, Dark Side powered rage, the people responsible for not just plain old killing, but torturing to death, his mother... a mother that was completely innocent of anything other than raising a child alone in slavery, and the rest of the people associated with them, women and children alike, who just happens to die in his arms. Something for which he absolutely shows remorse for... that is NOT understandable?

And learn to read. My point about Mike joining the Marines was not a jab at his character dumbass, but showing that it was not a normal life (the life Tom, Sonny, Vito, Fredo, his mother and the rest of the family wanted for him) Mike wanted for himself.

Mike probably joined the marines out of a sense of patriotic duty. "I want to live a normal life but first I must do my duty to my country". You are aware that the majority of the soldiers in WW2 went on to lead normal lives after the war, right? Just because Mike joined the marines it does not mean that he didn't want a normal life.

Look dude... Micheal Corleone has as normal a life going as his father can provide. He is even going to be able to keep him out of the military. Micheal chooses to disregard that normal life. P.S. Deciding to fight in a war, is not choosing normalcy. P.P.S. Joining the family CRIME business in not 'normal'.
The assertion, which was made, that Mike wanted a 'normal' life is BULL SHIT. He rejected every opportunity for a normal life.

Oh you are a fucking idiot. NO ONE IS SAYING IT IS OK DIPSHIT. Are you purposely ignoring the circumstances Anakin was in? The emotional stress of the moment he faced just seconds before? The overall circumstances of his life at the moment?

Which is why he needed immediate psychiatric help.

Oh for fuck's sake.

CIRCUMSTANCES. Fuck you are a thick brick. What caused Anakin to snap, is something that can literally NEVER happen again, because his mother is now dead. The only way that anything remotely the same could happen again, is if someone pretty fucking evil spent like, over a decade manipulating his mind and actions and influencing him with some sort of external... force and make him think the same thing might happen to Padme... Oh wait.

You are aware that most soldiers who commit atrocities have nasty post tramatic stress syndrome afterwards right? The idea that someone can massacre a whole village and be perfectly okay mentally afterwards is comical. Are you really that ignorant about basic human psychology?

Key word: MOST. Not all. You are also AGAIN ignoring the CIRCUMSTANCES of why Anakin did what he did. He is not some random fucking soldier in a jungle that is gleefully wiping out a village for no fucking reason. This is not a case of combat stress causing him to snap.

However, even ignoring the fact that Anakin would probably be suffering PTSD for the rest of his life there is still the fact that he could snap again if he lost another person who was important to him. Like say, his wife? Oh wait.

Holy fucking dog shit. You realize that you just repeated the exact same thing I said. Of course once AGAIN you completely disregard the very specific CIRCUMSTANCES that allow it to happen. So specific in fact that only one person IN COMPLETE SECRECY in the ENTIRE GALAXY can bring those circumstances about.

That reply has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Are you just plagiarizing what Channel has already said and then doing a piss poor job of figuring out where to copy/paste it?

What Channel said is absolutely correct. Meeting someone when they are nine and meeting them again ten years later IS like meeting two entirely different people. Are you really trying to tell me that Padme was in love with a child she meet ten years ago? So love struck that she couldn't see that the object of her affections has obviously changed into a monster?

Again, for the sheltered basement dwellers. YOU CAN LOVE SOMEONE WITHOUT WANTING TO FUCK THEM. And no, what I said if you bothered reading the thread is that Padme fell into a more adult love when she saw Anakin again...which she actually says.

Wow it is great that you would imagine that, BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT HAPPENED FUCK HEAD. Padme wasn't horrified, we saw that. Or maybe she was and figured that moment might not be the best time to chastise Anakin and a shoulder to cry on was what he needed at the moment since his mom just died in his arms and he committed a heinous act as retribution that he can't seem to come to grips with.

Obviously it wouldn't be a good idea to chastise Anakin. What she should have is inform the Jedi council, or at least Obi Wan about Anakin's actions.

Yeah no fucking shit Sherlock. Why do you think that anyone in this thread is somehow advocating for anything other than that. This thread is about the WHYS not the SHOULD HAVE DONES.

And Anakin didn't just accidentally save her planet... he was THE KEY component in allowing Padme to even get to Coruscant, let alone get back to Naboo. Then he did, what no other pilot was even capable of doing unless you are going to say that Ben Burtt was going to fly through the TF droid control ship?
Without Anakin's courage and bravery and complete lack of worrying about his own well being, he wouldn't have been in a position to 'accidentally' destroy the droid control ship.

Of course the only reason they were reliant on Anakin to get them off Tattoine was because of plot induced stupidity. But regardless, I'll conceed this point.

Oh hey look 'the writers did it'. Concession accepted.

As for the whole tribe taking part in the actual torture, I never said they were. If the EU crap is to be believed, then in fact the whole tribe was reaping the benefits of her torture, and certainly, EU or no, no one was opposed to it.

That EU crap sounds like, crap. Besides, even if no one was actively opposed to the torture it still does not make it okay to kill them all. By that logic it is okay to kill all white people in 1980's South Africa.

The EU is crap. And I wouldn't be opposed to that idea... well at least punching all the white people in that face a few times.

I really can't understand how you fucking idiots can ignore the circumstances that led to Anakin killing the Tuskens. The only conclusion I can come to, is that you all have shitball mothers that you don't give two fucks about.

Oh, I understand the circumstances perfectly. It still doesn't make it okay for Padme to be okay with it.

[/quote]*sigh*

Last time, for the cheap seats.... NO ONE IS SAYING IT IS OK.
This whole thread has been 'Well this is why Anakin did what he did and this is why Padme did what she did" Not "Padme was right in being OK with it." Seriously dude. Fuck.

[Havok]

You are an idiot. It is not a group of people coming to the conclusion that it is best to wipe them out. (Something which clearly never happens) It is one distraught teenager who just had his mom die in his arms because the people in question tortured her to death.

Many people in this thread are pointing to the bad aspects of Tusken culture as a justification for why Anakin did what he did. And its not just this thread, I have gotten into plenty of arguments about this topic on other boards where people say "The Tuskens had a history of savagery therefore it is okay to wipe them all out."

Then those people are fucking retards. However, that has never been MY contention on the matter. I simply can understand and sympathize with why Anakin did what he did, while still being able to understand that it is completely fucking wrong.

[stormthebeaches]

I love how you keep pointing out that he kills a corrupt cop like that makes any difference. Not to mention his father is a fucking MURDERER. How can you sit here with a straight fucking face and defend Micheal Corleone's actions, but not understand Anakin's motivations for his actions.

I am not defending Micheal's actions. He is almost certainly a criminal.

You fucking imbecile. NOT ONE PERSON IN THIS THREAD IS TRYING TO JUSTIFY WHAT ANAKIN DID. They are trying to explain, from a character and In Universe perspective WHY he did it. There is not one person defending the action itself.

I understand from a character and in universe perspective why he did it. Now seeing that he both agree that his actions were not justified. Is it safe to agree that he deserves to be locked up for war crimes?

So it is understandable for Mike to become the head of a crime family that is responsible for hundreds of deaths,(including many innocent ones) prostitution, gambling and all sorts of other illegal acts, because his dad got shot and his brother got killed, both who were also MURDERING CRIMINALS, but it is totally incomprehensible for Anakin to snap and kill, in a emotionally unstable, Dark Side powered rage, the people responsible for not just plain old killing, but torturing to death, his mother... a mother that was completely innocent of anything other than raising a child alone in slavery, and the rest of the people associated with them, women and children alike, who just happens to die in his arms. Something for which he absolutely shows remorse for... that is NOT understandable?

Now your distorting my argument. I understand why Mike did what he did. Likewise, I understand why Anakin did what he did. I thought the issue here is why the love interests in both cases act the way they do.

Look dude... Micheal Corleone has as normal a life going as his father can provide. He is even going to be able to keep him out of the military. Micheal chooses to disregard that normal life. P.S. Deciding to fight in a war, is not choosing normalcy. P.P.S. Joining the family CRIME business in not 'normal'.
The assertion, which was made, that Mike wanted a 'normal' life is BULL SHIT. He rejected every opportunity for a normal life.

Micheal originally wanted nothing to do with the family business. It is when a rival mafia attempted to kill his father and he got beaten up by a corrupt cop who was taking bribes from the rival mafia. This has nothing to do with wanting "a normal life", it is about Micheal and the family business. Micheal initially wanted nothing to do with the family business and only took an interest when the rival mafia started going after his family.

Key word: MOST. Not all. You are also AGAIN ignoring the CIRCUMSTANCES of why Anakin did what he did. He is not some random fucking soldier in a jungle that is gleefully wiping out a village for no fucking reason. This is not a case of combat stress causing him to snap.

Unless if someone is an outright sociopath they will suffer some form of PTSD from committing an atrocity on that scale. Circumstances doesn't change the fact that Anakin will carry mental scars from that action, nightmares PTSD and all the problems it brings. He needed help.

Holy fucking dog shit. You realize that you just repeated the exact same thing I said. Of course once AGAIN you completely disregard the very specific CIRCUMSTANCES that allow it to happen. So specific in fact that only one person IN COMPLETE SECRECY in the ENTIRE GALAXY can bring those circumstances about.

Anakin snapped once because he lost someone who was very close to him. Who is to say that he won't snap again because he loses someone else who is close to him. Or if those circumstances drove him to committing that atrocity, what's to say that lesser circumstances won't drive him to committing a lesser atrocity?

Again, for the sheltered basement dwellers. YOU CAN LOVE SOMEONE WITHOUT WANTING TO FUCK THEM. And no, what I said if you bothered reading the thread is that Padme fell into a more adult love when she saw Anakin again...which she actually says.

So Padme fell in love with a child that she only knew for a few days? And stayed in love with this child for ten years? And this love carried over to his adult self? Love strong enough to blind her to the fact that adult Anakin has serious mental issues.

Last time, for the cheap seats.... NO ONE IS SAYING IT IS OK.
This whole thread has been 'Well this is why Anakin did what he did and this is why Padme did what she did" Not "Padme was right in being OK with it." Seriously dude. Fuck.

Well, I still don't see why Padme would be so in love with Anakin that she would look over such a blatant red flag. She hardly knew the guy.

[stormthebeaches]

Actually, in ROTS Padme is again, OK with Anakin slaughtering kids. Even then she is all 'lets just run away and leave it all behind', which is fairly baffling.
However, after watching all the movies, just a few times , I have come to the conclusion that Padme isn't quite the defender of life that you and others think she is, but more just a defender of liberty. She doesn't really seem to have any qualms about life being taken, aside from the people of Naboo when she was Queen, and doesn't seem to really oppose the Army because she is worried about who they will kill, but more that it will give power to the wrong people. People who will subvert liberty with the Army.

Padme looked pretty horrified about Anakin's child murdering in ROTS. She still loved him but she looked absolutely horrified at his actions.

Also, I would disagree that she opposed the army on the grounds that it will kill people. It's been a while sense I've seen the movie but didn't she oppose the army on the grounds that she was opposed to war? Padme is portrayed as someone who dislikes violence throughout the series.

[Batman]

How exactly do you charge someone with war crimes for something he did to people you AREN'T at war with OUTSIDE the war zone?
You want to bring him in on criminal charges, sure, nobody said he DIDN'T murder all those Sand People, and given his Jedi powers calling it self defense is going to take some doing even IF the entire village Zergrushed him, but I don't see how that constitutes a WAR crime (as opposed to 'mere' multiple (considerably multiple) homicide.

[stormthebeaches]

How exactly do you charge someone with war crimes for something he did to people you AREN'T at war with OUTSIDE the war zone?
You want to bring him in on criminal charges, sure, nobody said he DIDN'T murder all those Sand People, and given his Jedi powers calling it self defense is going to take some doing even IF the entire village Zergrushed him, but I don't see how that constitutes a WAR crime (as opposed to 'mere' multiple (considerably multiple) homicide.

Your right. War crime is a bad phrase. I guess hundreds of counts of murder would be better.

[Channel72]

Last time, for the cheap seats.... NO ONE IS SAYING IT IS OK.
This whole thread has been 'Well this is why Anakin did what he did and this is why Padme did what she did" Not "Padme was right in being OK with it." Seriously dude. Fuck.

No, you're arguing that:

A) Padme's (lack of) reaction to Anakin's killing spree is understandable, given her prior relationship with Anakin and/or Anakin's reputation
B) Padme's willingness to overlook Anakin's killing spree is similar to Kay's willingness to overlook Michael's mafia-related activities

But arguing this forces you into defending two equally ridiculous positions:

Firstly, you have to equate the wholesale, indiscriminate slaughter of an entire tribe of people with the relatively less severe crimes of a mafia thug. You can argue about mitigating circumstances (such as Anakin's emotional state) until you're blue in the face. That does absolutely nothing to make the Michael/Anakin or Kay/Padme comparison valid. Seriously, Anakin's act is in an entirely different league than Michael Corleone's mafia thuggery. This is like equating the crimes of some drug-dealer who kills a rival dealer with an emotionally unstable American soldier who slaughters an entire village in Afghanistan. The second act is clearly more horrific than the first, by just about any standard. In Anakin's case it's even worse, because he used a sword rather than a range weapon, meaning he had to methodically slaughter each man, woman and child in the camp, which would take a while. (But it's okay 'cause maybe the kids were hitting him with sticks!)

Secondly, you have to argue that Padme's love for Anakin was so overwhelming that she was willing to overlook Anakin's killing spree, despite the fact that she is otherwise portrayed as an upstanding leader and a staunch defender of democracy, peace, and diplomacy. But since Padme only knew Anakin for a couple of days, you have to actually argue that the events in Phantom Menace (when Anakin was only 9 years old!) somehow contributed to Padme's overwhelming, deep romantic love for him 10 years later. Can anyone seriously imagine meeting a 9 year old child, and then falling deeply in love with them a decade later because of something they did as a child!? That's so ridiculous, I can't believe I actually have to explain this to another human being.

Sure, Padme certainly admired Anakin's bravery, and was deeply grateful for his help in Phantom Menace, but to argue that this somehow believably translates into adult, romantic love 10 years later, (a love so powerful even that is was able to blind Padme to Anakin's homicidal rage) is utterly preposterous.

Love can blind people, we all know that. In Kay's case, it's understandable; she knew Michael since college, he promised to become legitimate in 5 years, etc. Maybe she was naive, but it's still understandable. With Padme, it's just preposterous. A guy she met like two days ago turns out to be a raging maniac capable of wiping out an entire tribe in a moment of emotional weakness. And she marries him.

[Channel72]

As an aside, I caught a part of Attack of the Clones the other day, and it was interesting to see how Anakin and Padme actually have some bantering dialogue reminiscent of the old Han/Leia squabbles, in the scene when Anakin and Padme address the Queen on Naboo. Padme condescendingly refers to Anakin as "not a real Jedi yet", and Anakin is clearly pissed. However, this whole banter angle is promptly dropped, and immediately replaced with the sappy crap that AotC is famous for. This is unfortunate, because the banter was actually a lot more enjoyable and realistic than the silly love dialogue. Really, it was a terrible writing decision to have Anakin express his love while hanging around doing nothing on Naboo; they really needed to be off on some adventure, where circumstances would make them realize their love for one another.

[Vympel]

A better way to do things would have been for Anakin to slaughter the village, but simply lie about the magnitude of his crime to Padme. That would form an early basis for one of his problems in RotS - i.e. the inability to be honest/ forthright with Padme about what was going on.

[Formless]

'Kay, so I just got done watching the scene where Anakin snaps, and a few things jump out at me:

1) Shmi sure chooses a convenient time to up and die, doesn't she. Right when Anakin gets there-- no sooner, no later. Says her last words, dies. I'm not even sure what she died of, but if I had to guess I'd say it was Generic Dramatic Moment Syndrome. Yes, this has nothing to do with the debate about Anakin, its just one of those uninspired bits of directing I couldn't let slide.

2) the very next scene is of Yoda talking to Mace Windu about sensing "pain. Suffering. Death, I fear. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain." Hmmm... not going to bring this up ever again, are you Yoda? No therapy? No internal investigation? Not even going to consider how vulnerable this guy is next time he asks you for help? I guess he got too sidetracked what with the war and everything, but you would think one of the two Jedi masers has a secretary or some underling they can delegate authority to to make sure Anakin doesn't snap from stress or, I dunno, fall to the dark side and join the Sith.

3) Anakin was on Tatooine in defiance of direct orders from Obi Wan to stay on Naboo. I forgot he has a tendency to do that. I know, trying to mirror Luke's departure to Bespin in Empire, but then again, that was to show how courageous and loyal Luke was to his friends. Anakin does it for a mother he hasn't seen in ten years, in the process risking the life of his love interest just bringing her to a backwater like Tatooine, and the entire political situation that he's officially on duty protecting her from assassination for. Anakin does what he does in spite of his responsibilities: Luke does it because he is responsible (if a bit young and foolish). Oh, and afterwards, Luke doesn't do this:

4) in the scene where he talks to Padme, Anakin's first instinct is to childishly shift the blame off of himself and onto Obi Wan for not training him how to be a God. The same guy you said you thought of as a father, and now "he's jealous, he's holding me back." What an ingrate.

5) same scene; "they're animals; and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them! [*que Imperial March motif*]" That's not remorse. The emotions he's going through are "grief" and "motherfucking pissed" respectively. His statement "I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this." is nice and all, but does he really believe it? I mean, its bluntly obvious that he's not better than this because he failed to be better right when it counted. It doesn't even sound like he's addressing his little atrocity so much as his shows of emotion in general. And by the way, Padme, anger may be human, but so is anger management.

6) Padme decides that since they are closer to Genosis than Coruscant, they should go and try and help Obi Wan... which leads to them getting captured. So I guess she's not exactly the brightest or most responsible girl either. Just in case you thought I was being unfair.

7) this whole debacle with Anakin and his obsession with being able to save lives sounds to me like good reason for the Jedi to spend a little less time training with archaic weapons and a little more time learning first aid. You would think such a basic emergency skill would be essential for their duties. And you don't even need to be force sensitive to learn a thing or two about medicine, either!

[RecklessPrudence]

I'm not looking to get involved in this, partly because my debating skills are massively lacking (at least, compared to my arguing skills :p), as well as for many other reasons, but I have to point out a few things.

In Anakin's case it's even worse, because he used a sword rather than a range weapon, meaning he had to methodically slaughter each man, woman and child in the camp, which would take a while. (But it's okay 'cause maybe the kids were hitting him with sticks!)

Looked at in another light, the fact that he was using a melee weapon would actually make it harder for him to stop halfway, as he's right in the middle of the encampment, all the inhabitants of which have taken up arms against him - if he attempts to disengage, he's almost certainly surrounded, probably cut off from his means of retreat (the speeder bike), against enemies skilled in both melee and ranged combat, who have been demonstrably effective against a technologically-superior force (the earlier rescue party, when Cliegg Lars lost his leg), who have superior desert-craft, are skilled at hunting down survivors/hunt targets, and who possess at least high-end human strength as a matter-of-course (hey, I'd like to see how long you could carry and use four foot of weaponised scrap metal!).

This isn't taking in to account that Tusken Raiders are pretty much the bogeymen of Tatooine, that Anakin was essentially sleep-deprived and what little sleep he did get was plagued by nightmares, all the stuff Hav said about what he had been going through, that he's just had his tortured-to-death mother die in his arms, that he knows that Raiders are rumoured to drink the moisture of those they kill (which he, being mechanically-inclined and Tatooine-bred, and therefore used to moisture-collecting stuff, can probably look at what his mother was hooked up to and discern what it was used for), or that at some point he probably just slipped into a mechanical state of reacting to perceived threats ("Tusken-there-weapon?-screaming-threat!-kill"). All that taken together, and once he got started it probably would have been hard to stop, either for practical reasons or psychological ones.

Oh, and by the way? Those "sticks" you're so contemptuous of? It's not exactly like Afghani kids having sticks against US soldiers. For one thing, Anakin's in melee with them already, as opposed to some distance away with an assault rifle. Gaffi sticks are one of the main two weapons of most Tuskens, one that both males and females are trained in from a young age, one that's ownership and proficiency in is highly prized by Tuskens as a culture. They may be lacking in a "melt through a blast door" comparison to a lightsaber, but you don't need anywhere near that level of power to be dangerous to a human. For fuck's sake, they're four feet of iron/steel/durasteel with a mace on one end and a giant spike on the other! It's not like Afghani kids with sticks, it's like Afghani kids with third-world knock-off Cold War Soviet assault rifles! Not as good as what the hypothetical unstable soldier's carrying, but more than effective enough to kill the hell out of you.


The only other thing I want to respond to is:

1) Shmi sure chooses a convenient time to up and die, doesn't she. Right when Anakin gets there-- no sooner, no later. Says her last words, dies. I'm not even sure what she died of, but if I had to guess I'd say it was Generic Dramatic Moment Syndrome. Yes, this has nothing to do with the debate about Anakin, its just one of those uninspired bits of directing I couldn't let slide.

This is anecdotal, I know, but my great-grandfather was dying. Terminal. All that time in the coal mine as a kid catching up to him. "All we can do is make his last days comfortable (and-there-won't-be-many-of-those)" level of already dead. But he knew that on the other side of the state, his second great-grandchild, my eleven-years-younger little brother, was due soon, and his son and daughter-in-law wanted to go welcome their second grandchild into the world, but were afraid to go and be too far to make it back in time. He told them to go, said that he'd be there when they got back, but that he couldn't make any promises after that. This was over a month before my brother was born, and the doctors had already said that he was all but gone.

Grandma and Pop hung around until it was almost too late to make it (this is an Australian decent-sized state, not these "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" things I understand other countries have), and all the while Old Poppy was telling them to go, he'd be fine (with a number of insults and swearwords, but then, he was an old bushie who came to the city under protest, what are you going to do?). When they finally left, he was fine. When my little brother was born, he was fine. When Grandma and Pop rang him to tell him, he was fine, he told them to hang around, make sure his granddaughter and great-grandson were okay. They did so, only going back after two weeks. They got back, he was fine, joked with them about "now that you've got a hole in your busy schedule, the old bastard can finally kark it". The next day, they got an urgent call from the hospital, saying that if they didn't come right now, it'd be too late. He died the day after he promised he would, surrounded by all his children and their spouses.

I know that was anecdotal, and tangential at best, but I offer it to show that even the most terminal of terminal cases can hold on a little longer, if they have something to aim for.

I know it's a cliché, but some clichés are clichés for a reason.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with 2, parts of 3, parts of 4 & 5, and all of 6 & 7.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Looked at in another light, the fact that he was using a melee weapon would actually make it harder for him to stop halfway, as he's right in the middle of the encampment, all the inhabitants of which have taken up arms against him - if he attempts to disengage, he's almost certainly surrounded, probably cut off from his means of retreat (the speeder bike), against enemies skilled in both melee and ranged combat, who have been demonstrably effective against a technologically-superior force (the earlier rescue party, when Cliegg Lars lost his leg), who have superior desert-craft, are skilled at hunting down survivors/hunt targets, and who possess at least high-end human strength as a matter-of-course (hey, I'd like to see how long you could carry and use four foot of weaponised scrap metal!).

Where this all falls apart is when you take into consideration the fact that earlier in the movie Anakin was hopping out of vehicles and falling hundreds or thousands of feet without a problem and generally doing all sorts of superhuman feats. He's a Jedi Knight, he's one of the supermen of the galaxy. It sure as hell didn't look like he was having any trouble at all cutting down the Tusken, and when he saw Padme a little later he certainly didn't look like someone who had just barely survived a pitched standoff against an entire village.

Basically the entirety of the scene gave the impression that even a whole village of Tusken raiders was no threat to an armed Jedi Knight, and he felt bad because he made the conscious choice to kill them all, which implies (as did the scene of his killing them) that he could have easily retreated by, say, jumping forty feet through the air or any number of the other feats we saw him do throughout the movie. Retreat wouldn't be an option for a normal human, for a Jedi it could have easily been done.

[Jim Raynor]

I went over Anakin's big drop in that other thread. He had prior knowledge of where the target vehicle was coming from and needed to bring his vehicle to a complete stop, look down twice, and used at least 12 seconds of preparation to do it. It's a total leap in logic to think that because Anakin was able to accomplish that feat, he can do anything without being threatened. We see what happens when a Jedi, even one of Anakin's talent, gets surrounded by just a few guys with blasters: they surrendur. The Sand People don't just have big sticks, they also have rifles.

This isn't to say that Anakin necessarily had a hard time massacreing the Sand People. It was night time and they were caught unaware. We never see most of the killing, so we don't know the level of resistance they were able to put up. But if they were able to come at Anakin in numbers and surround him, it's possible that it turned into a fight that he could dismiss at will.

[Formless]

Looked at in another light, the fact that he was using a melee weapon would actually make it harder for him to stop halfway, as he's right in the middle of the encampment, all the inhabitants of which have taken up arms against him - if he attempts to disengage, he's almost certainly surrounded, probably cut off from his means of retreat (the speeder bike), against enemies skilled in both melee and ranged combat, who have been demonstrably effective against a technologically-superior force (the earlier rescue party, when Cliegg Lars lost his leg), who have superior desert-craft, are skilled at hunting down survivors/hunt targets, and who possess at least high-end human strength as a matter-of-course (hey, I'd like to see how long you could carry and use four foot of weaponised scrap metal!).

Compared to a Jedi Fucking Knight? Anakin isn't a normal human being. Its not like a bunch of primitive desert nomads are any threat to him. And he not only knows this, his ego is practically the size of a moon because he knows this. If he can slaughter the lot of them, why can't he cut down any of them between him and his speeder? He's been in combat situations before, he should know when to fold 'em. And you really think the tuskins are so stupid that even after he's single handedly slaughtered half the tribe that they aren't going to just say "fuck this shit, RUN AWAY!"? I can't believe anyone could watch that scene and think "he's actually fighting for his life and not killing out of anger."

This isn't taking in to account that Tusken Raiders are pretty much the bogeymen of Tatooine, that Anakin was essentially sleep-deprived and what little sleep he did get was plagued by nightmares, all the stuff Hav said about what he had been going through, that he's just had his tortured-to-death mother die in his arms, that he knows that Raiders are rumoured to drink the moisture of those they kill (which he, being mechanically-inclined and Tatooine-bred, and therefore used to moisture-collecting stuff, can probably look at what his mother was hooked up to and discern what it was used for), or that at some point he probably just slipped into a mechanical state of reacting to perceived threats ("Tusken-there-weapon?-screaming-threat!-kill"). All that taken together, and once he got started it probably would have been hard to stop, either for practical reasons or psychological ones.

Funny thing, but according to Anakin, "they are animals. And I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM!" Not a single sentence of his dialogue doesn't indicate that he's just a bigoted violent sociopath or that his actions weren't done with malicious intent. The tuskins being the bogeymen of tatooine doesn't excuse things one bit.

Oh, and by the way? Those "sticks" you're so contemptuous of? It's not exactly like Afghani kids having sticks against US soldiers. For one thing, Anakin's in melee with them already, as opposed to some distance away with an assault rifle. Gaffi sticks are one of the main two weapons of most Tuskens, one that both males and females are trained in from a young age, one that's ownership and proficiency in is highly prized by Tuskens as a culture. They may be lacking in a "melt through a blast door" comparison to a lightsaber, but you don't need anywhere near that level of power to be dangerous to a human. For fuck's sake, they're four feet of iron/steel/durasteel with a mace on one end and a giant spike on the other! It's not like Afghani kids with sticks, it's like Afghani kids with third-world knock-off Cold War Soviet assault rifles! Not as good as what the hypothetical unstable soldier's carrying, but more than effective enough to kill the hell out of you.

Gaffie stick vs Jedi Knight wielding lightsaber. The stupid money is on the guy with a metal stick-- especially if its in the hands of a child. For fucks sake, a lightsaber can cut through the damned thing. A more accurate metaphore would be kid with pistol vs well armed squad of soldiers armed with machine guns. Hell, gaffie stick vs guy with a blaster is still an unfair fight because of range issues. The only reason the Tuskins are any threat at all to the locals is because the locals are fucking farmers, not warriors or Jedi Fucking Knights.

[RecklessPrudence]

First off, I apologise if I gave a false impression of my position. It was late, I had taken my meds, I was tired - although not yet zonked out of my head. I never meant to imply that I was betting on the Tuskens, or that they even had much of a chance, just that they would have provided some threat to Anakin. Not enough that he's fighting for his life, but enough so that he's not exactly going to get bored and wander off. A pistol-wielding child can still get lucky, especially if there's enough of them.

And yes, the smart thing for the Tuskens would probably be to escape, but he's killing/killed your friends, spouses, children, parents. It's not like he took out all the warriors, then the other adults and only then hit the children. He killed them as he came across them, so a good proportion of them probably tried to revenge-kill him (only to fail miserably). Hell, for all we know after a certain point the warriors got as many noncombatants out as they could, only for them to hesitate and try and kill this demon in the night when their spouses got killed. History is full of people in roughly similar situations who don't do the smart thing. It's even vaguely possible, since every Tusken is supposed to be able to fight, that the majority of them were killed in two or three massed charges. Do we know how big the village was? I can't remember, having not seen the movie for a while. If it was like thirty people and Anakin killed about eight before they realised roughly how dangerous he was, it's even possible that the majority of the village died together, attempting to rush him.

I agree, Anakin could have cut down all those between him and his speeder bike. Hell, he probably could have done it even encumbered with his mother's corpse. But he's enraged and wants revenge (the thought of carrying his mother's corpse to the speeder bike probably didn't help), and they're providing just enough fight that he can feel justified in killing them as threats. At the time, which carries on to his encounter with Padme, he's in the grip of completely understandable emotions, as well as whatever unquantifiable influence the dark side has on that. Haven't you ever been so pissed off that, even after the initial encounter is over and you're attempting to talk it out with someone, you still rationalise whatever horrible thing you've done and feel mostly justified in it, to yourself, if nobody else? Granted, neither of us have killed an entire village as a result of being enraged, but we haven't been in a situation like Anakin's, where his mother died in his arms, he had a clear target for his rage, and the means to easily carry it out. It's not excusable, but it is understandable.

"Fucking Farmers", in a rough enough situation, without ready means of help to call on (the planet's run by the Hutts, who occasionally pay bounty hunters to bring the number of Tuskens down when they're impinging on the Hutt's business interests) can be damn dangerous. "Fucking Farmers" have organised and killed threats to themselves and their families before. Granted, they're not as good as soldiers or even the more martial types of law enforcement, but they can get the job done.

By the way, the animals line? He could be (probably is) attempting to justify his actions to himself. After all, if they're just animals, then he didn't commit thirty+ counts of murder (after a certain point, it stops being justifiable homicide). He just killed the animals who killed his mother. He almost certainly knows this isn't true, as Tuskens have a limited amount of technology, a language, and could torture his mother, all of which requires at least some cognitive ability, and taken together probably means they're not animals (although humans in the here and now have trouble recognising any other species as possibly being smart enough that we shouldn't kill them for sport*).

Jedi being super[species] doesn't mean they're invulnerable. Yes, Anakin can do impressive things, but even as skilled as he is, a spike through the skull is still going to slow him down. Enough opponents, enough angles of attack, he's still going to have trouble. It doesn't even have the be them getting lucky, just Anakin not having enough time, even with precog, to react to all the (gaffi sticks, blaster bolts, nerf bats, whatever) coming from different angles. Eventually, his lightsaber is going to have to be in three different locations to block, and he's going to have to dodge a further five threats, all at one time. Unless Jedi can suddenly do that, then threat saturation is still a viable, if costly and difficult, method of defeating them. The Tuskens didn't, likely couldn't, manage it, but later on in the movie the battledroids did (although still not as well as you'd think, considering they were all networked and immune to morale concerns).

None of this takes away from what he did, but it wasn't a matter of Anakin being mildly annoyed and deciding to go commit genocide. I know I haven't covered the main point of this thread - or at least, what it's become - that of Padme's reaction, but I'm unsure whether I can. I'm not sure how well I'm expressing myself here, but I think I got most of your points - feel free to point out the ones I missed or messed up on, and I'll try again.



* - I think I read a while ago that the original definition of a non-human sentient species would have covered species at different technological and cognitive levels, but then we found that animals like most apes and cetaceans, some monkeys, and a lot of other animals that you don't typically think of as "smart", fulfilled enough criteria that they should be granted at least some human rights, like language, tool use, stuff like that. Only this made people uncomfortable, so they tightened the criteria. Then we found that the animals fulfilled those criteria, as well, so they were tightened again and again until, now, the definition of a sentient species is basically, "human". Anyone else got a link or something?

[Formless]

And yes, the smart thing for the Tuskens would probably be to escape, but he's killing/killed your friends, spouses, children, parents. It's not like he took out all the warriors, then the other adults and only then hit the children. He killed them as he came across them, so a good proportion of them probably tried to revenge-kill him (only to fail miserably). Hell, for all we know after a certain point the warriors got as many noncombatants out as they could, only for them to hesitate and try and kill this demon in the night when their spouses got killed. History is full of people in roughly similar situations who don't do the smart thing. It's even vaguely possible, since every Tusken is supposed to be able to fight, that the majority of them were killed in two or three massed charges. Do we know how big the village was? I can't remember, having not seen the movie for a while. If it was like thirty people and Anakin killed about eight before they realised roughly how dangerous he was, it's even possible that the majority of the village died together, attempting to rush him.

Your use of the words "probably" and "possibly" should have tipped you off that you are just dealing in speculation without evidence.

They probably tried to kill him and raise the alarm as soon as the first two guards at the tent bit the dust. Anakin then killed the warriors that sounded the alarm, in an attempt to make the slaughter easier for himself. Since his assault was at night (interesting little detail you missed, and I thnk you will see why its important momentarily), the tribesmen were probably all asleep save for the one's we see and maybe a few lookouts. As the fight broke out, its possible whoever else was awake and out of lightsaber range probably tried to rouse whoever they could who was good in combat first to try and deal with the threat while the rest tried to either get to safety or, well, gawk. Chaos ensues as Anakin swiftly deals with whatever warriors try to get in his way while the tribe panics from not being able to efficiently communicate whats going on due to being asleep. As people are getting out of their beds and tents there's Anakin, weapon out, slaying anything that moves. And its a target rich environment. As he whittles away the fast responders, he moves on to killing people in their tents and in their sleep who were too slow on the uptake to effectively save themselves. At this point there are possibly more than a few who got away and were smart enough not to take on the Warrior With Superhuman Skill that painted the sand with the blood of the biggest and strongest warriors in the tibe. Anakin either hunts them down with his Jedi senses, or doesn't notice them as he finishes the cleanup of his little Dark-Side fueled rampage.

Now, I will admit that all I just wrote is a lot of narrative and speculation with lots of "probably"s thrown in there, but doesn't it sound a bit more realistic than "LOL, desert nomads with l33t warrior skillz surround Anakin and rush him with sticks in big impressive fight, even the children, making him feel threatened for his life [a fight he started]."?

"Fucking Farmers", in a rough enough situation, without ready means of help to call on (the planet's run by the Hutts, who occasionally pay bounty hunters to bring the number of Tuskens down when they're impinging on the Hutt's business interests) can be damn dangerous. "Fucking Farmers" have organised and killed threats to themselves and their families before. Granted, they're not as good as soldiers or even the more martial types of law enforcement, but they can get the job done.

When faced with dedicated warriors of any sort whatsoever? Not really. It really does take experience and/or training (maybe vast technological advantage which they don't apparently have) to take on that kind of threat. Not determination or organization whatever BS, actually knowing what you are dong. So it shouldn't be a surprise that they failed to mount a successful rescue against a tribe of nomads from a warrior culture.

By the way, the animals line? He could be (probably is) attempting to justify his actions to himself. After all, if they're just animals, then he didn't commit thirty+ counts of murder (after a certain point, it stops being justifiable homicide). He just killed the animals who killed his mother. He almost certainly knows this isn't true, as Tuskens have a limited amount of technology, a language, and could torture his mother, all of which requires at least some cognitive ability, and taken together probably means they're not animals (although humans in the here and now have trouble recognising any other species as possibly being smart enough that we shouldn't kill them for sport*).

Then you can put this line down with the ones blaming Obi Wan as being childish, selfish bullshit of the worst sort. Oh, yeah, much better.

[RecklessPrudence]

Since his assault was at night (interesting little detail you missed, and I thnk you will see why its important momentarily)

*headdesk* Dammit! I knew that, I was remembering the scene and it was night and everything, I just wasn't thinking through the obvious implications, for some reason. Sorry.

I wasn't trying to say that the Tuskens had a chance, or even that a calm Anakin would see them as legitimate threats, just that in his state of Dark Side-fueled rage, they were providing enough provocation that he felt justified, that it wasn't a matter of hunting down the fleeing women and children. I apologise if I gave the wrong impression.

When faced with dedicated warriors of any sort whatsoever? Not really. It really does take experience and/or training (maybe vast technological advantage which they don't apparently have) to take on that kind of threat.

I admit, I was thinking of situations where the farmers had a vast technological advantage (early North American/Australian colonisation), not a roughly comparable, even if scavenged, tech base. So, not applicable here.

Then you can put this line down with the ones blaming Obi Wan as being childish, selfish bullshit of the worst sort. Oh, yeah, much better.

Childish bullshit is better than out-and-out sociopathy, I guess? *shrug*

I guess I'm just trying to see Anakin as a more nuanced, sympathetic character. Or at least one that's written better. I'm seeing him as a little childish, yes, but that being at least understandable, if not excusable, when you take into account his life to this point. But while I see him as childish, which he can grow out of, I don't want to see him as a complete sociopath. Yes, he only really cares about a limited pool of people, but do you feel the same sense of loss when you hear that someone you don't know died in a car crash as when you hear someone close to you died the same way? Some people's pool of who they care about is smaller, and considering that Anakin isn't supposed to care about anyone in that way according to Yoda's idiotic version of the Jedi code, his emotional growth in that area is stunted and is probably stuck around about the level it was when he became a padawan, ie. about a 10-year-old's level.

I'm going to stop now, because I think you and I are arguing different things*. I see where you're coming from, and to an extent I agree with you, I just think we differ in our interpretations of the character, Anakin. Or at least where we like to think of him being.

* - Plus, because my little brother's bugging me to do something with him.

[Formless]

*headdesk* Dammit! I knew that, I was remembering the scene and it was night and everything, I just wasn't thinking through the obvious implications, for some reason. Sorry.

'Tis alright.

Childish bullshit is better than out-and-out sociopathy, I guess? *shrug*

With great power comes great responsibility? If you give someone a weapon and train them how to use it responsibly, they have much less of an excuse than an ordinary person who doesn't. Perhaps I'm channeling my own life experience with guns here, but yeah. You see where I'm coming from.

* - Plus, because my little brother's bugging me to do something with him.

Can't argue with that!

[hongi]

A better way to do things would have been for Anakin to slaughter the village, but simply lie about the magnitude of his crime to Padme. That would form an early basis for one of his problems in RotS - i.e. the inability to be honest/ forthright with Padme about what was going on.

Yes. Showing that he himself struggles with what he's done, because lying to Padme implies some sort of shame with his actions, or at least an understanding of what she and normal people would consider acceptable. Lying about the scope of the massacre i.e. it was self defense! would explain why Padme still pursues a relationship with Anakin, whereas Padme just rolling over after hearing about a massacre is simply mind-boggling.

Goddamn it. The PT sucks so bad.

And if it wasn't immoral to kill all the Tuskens, why was Qui-Gon saying 'Noooo!'?

[Havok]

Who said it wasn't immoral?

That aside, more for Anakin going down the path of the Dark Side. As Yoda said, 'once you start...', it's not like Luke is the first person he informed of that.

[Spartan]

The ATOC novel details the massacre a bit more. Not all of the Tuskens attacked him, some fled in fear...he killed them anyway. Dropping large boulders on their huts and such. It was an indiscriminate slaughter. Even in the movie itself you can see the women and children were unarmed. I'm sorry there just is no way to sanitize the murder of children.


Honestly, Padame is just as morally reprehensible as Anakin; because she new he was fucked up and never even tried to get him any help. Hell, she enabled him. Vympel's right though, had he just lied the whole scene could have worked.