Likelihood of a Second Galactic Empire?

[Bakustra]

Another issue:

Blockading Alderaan is far more helpful to the cause of the Empire than destroying it. You see, if Alderaan is armed (and it may well be) then if they shoot back at the blockading ships, they've just fired the first shot and essentially declared war on the Empire. Couple that with the evidence of gunrunning to armed terrorist groups people insist is available, and suddenly Alderaan is planeta non grata and you've got the perfect excuse to go in guns blazing and talk the senate into financing a galactic War on Insurrection. No mass-murder needed!

Contrast this to the actual plan they developed, where they butchered a planet known for pacifism and lied about it. Yes, that looks really credible, especially coupled with dissolving the Senate hours beforehand. No wonder people went to join the Alliance, especially given their victory at Yavin.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I'm not a fan of Tarkin's philosophy either. It's counterproductive on the whole and it destroys the benevolent image that Palpatine had been using since TPM. In the long run it also gave the Rebels more ammo for their propaganda and recruiting machine. However, from what I understood, that is what the Empire circa ANH sees as being good [the Tarkin Doctrine] and so it blew up the planet.

So what you're saying is that if this is genuinely perceived as 'good' by the Empire, then the Empire comically evil and incompetent.

Basically what most rational people in this thread are already arguing.

[Boeing 757]

I'm not a fan of Tarkin's philosophy either. It's counterproductive on the whole and it destroys the benevolent image that Palpatine had been using since TPM. In the long run it also gave the Rebels more ammo for their propaganda and recruiting machine. However, from what I understood, that is what the Empire circa ANH sees as being good [the Tarkin Doctrine] and so it blew up the planet.

So what you're saying is that if this is genuinely perceived as 'good' by the Empire, then the Empire comically evil and incompetent.

Basically what most rational people in this thread are already arguing.

Yea. I said that back on page five, I believe, although the way that I said it made it sound like I was contesting that.

Somehow this thread became derailed on page one and turned into one of those 'Is the Empire evil' threads. I'm not sure where the benefit of arguing over this lies when the answer is so fucking obvious.

[Darth Fanboy]

I'm not sure where the benefit of arguing over this lies when the answer is so fucking obvious.

Shockingly enough there are idiots on the internet.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yea. I said that back on page five, I believe, although the way that I said it made it sound like I was contesting that.

You had it coming.

Somehow this thread became derailed on page one and turned into one of those 'Is the Empire evil' threads. I'm not sure where the benefit of arguing over this lies when the answer is so fucking obvious.

This thread had it coming too.

Deserve's got nothin to do with it.

[bz249]

Snip

Hi, I see you are new. Can you please explain to me why you think an entire planet's population needed to be destroyed outright, including a number of children and young adults numbering at least in the low millions (probably a lot higher i'm guessing) had to be killed to? Oh wait I forgot it is totally bad ass to blow up a planet that makes it right! Furthermore, read down that list of atrocities I posted and see if you can spot the pattern that TC Pilot is apparently too dumb to figure out.

Again I the Empire is evil, examples of enslaving the wookies or the Mon Calamari, the BDZ of Caamas, murdering the crew of Tantive after they surrenderd, the unnecessary killing of the jawas and the Owen family, the unnecessary torture of Han, Jerjerrod intention of destroying the Endor after battle was lost etc... would prove it.

Alderaan however was a valid military target, and the destruction of it offered a potential to grant victory for the Empire in the current war and make any further insurgency impossible. They destroyed it not because they were evil, but because that was the way to win now and forever. Thus it is the path which minimize the overall death toll of the conflict (one planet vs the whole Galaxy). Judged on the Empire actions, they would used the deterrence provided by the Death Star to increase the exploitation of the Galaxy and oppression to previously unimaginable level (since there is no chance to resist). But winning a galactic scale war with the destruction of one lone planet is not evil by itself.

2.) Palpatine was the evilest Sith Lord of all time, who has to be stopped no matter of the cost, and one should join the first group which is capable of that. In their war agains the Empire the Rebels were the good guy, since they were the only group with a decent enough chance to kill that bastard. So siding with the Rebels is the morally just action.

And it is exactly my fucking point that the empire is far from "morally just".

3.) Fighting against an oppressive regime does not make anyone a competent administrator, the Rebels were incredibly untalaneted in ruling the Galaxy after they took it over.

That has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the Galactic Empire was a force for good in the galaxy, it's piss poor justification.

I don't want to justify anything, the Rebels were piss poor administrators later on, way unqualified to rule the Galaxy with any effciency. That's a simple fact. So if we look them on their merit of their own, they created a bad regime. However since anything is better than a Galaxy ruled by Palpatine (even a YV ruled Galaxy), their administrative qualities are not really important in the conflict. Who has no horse should accept the mule he has.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Contrast this to the actual plan they developed, where they butchered a planet known for pacifism and lied about it. Yes, that looks really credible, especially coupled with dissolving the Senate hours beforehand. No wonder people went to join the Alliance, especially given their victory at Yavin.

This is something I've been wondering about while reading this thread. Was the destruction of Alderaan really part of any plan? Or was it more of a spur of the moment idea on the part of Tarkin?

Also, does anybody know what Palpatine thought of the event? Tarkin seemed pretty nervous afterword ("This plan of yours had better work"). It may be that Tarkin had to end the rebellion right then and there or face punishment from Palpatine for his actions. Hell, he may have been punished even if he had destroyed Yavin 4, as I can't see Palpatine being especially pleased at losing a prominant core world.

Of course, its possible that Palpatine was pleased as punch at the news and this was covered in some book I haven't read, if so, please disregard.

[Tiriol]

... No. My statement is clear: worlds with planetary shields can be conquered even without a superweapon like the Death Star. It just takes more effort. The fact that worlds were conquered both by the Separatists and the Republic proves it, unless there is a proof floating around somewhere that all those worlds were without planetary shields.

You can, just like the US could have invaded Japan and lost countless soldiers. The entire purpose of the Death Star was to bypass these shields.

So it becomes a matter of convenience. Why risk losing soldiers against presumably DE-MILITARIZED WORLD FULL OF CIVILIANS when you can blow the place up, no questions asked, killing everyone, including all those who remained loyal to the Empire?

They could have just laid an orbital siege, you know: while Alderaan certainly isn't Coruscant, not being able to get out and contact the rest of the galaxy or even getting any supplies from outside (including the miracle cure bacta) would have an effect at some point and such a siege would also have prevented any contact with Rebels outside. That option wouldn't have even cost the Empire soldiers.

Is there any proof that even a sizeable minority or a majority of Alderaanians were Rebels or actively helping them? Or does simply having Rebel sympathies count?

You mean like Winter after being persuaded by Bria Thranten's arguments and the convincing Bail to secretly arm his own people?

When did this happen and how does arming one's own people equal rebellion? And I note that you still haven't provided information if we are talking about a majority of Alderaanians being Rebels or even a sizeable minority of them.

So because the ruling family engaged in rebellion - in secret, actually, since there apparently wasn't any proof of their rebellion before Leia blew their cover during the Death Star plans' acquisition - the whole planet, along with billions of sentient living beings living there peacefully, has to go the way of supernova?

The Force Unleashed remains canon no matter how much you dislike it.

I have no idea what you are talking about there; how is The Force Unleashed relevant, besides having (to my almost non-existent knowledge) yet another Revan-type super Force-user as Gary Stu main character?

Is there any proof that a majority of the Alderaanians were actually Rebels, or that there was even a sizeable minority?

You mean except Alderaan payrolling the Rebellion?

Once again, any proof?

Having Rebel sympathies does not cut it, since Coruscant was not blown up (and it was apparently pretty obvious to just about everyone that the Imperial Senate, stationed on Coruscant, had Rebel sympathies)? We know that there were some Rebels on Alderaan, but we also know that there were some Rebels on Corellia or that they were hailing from it and Corellia wasn't punished in any shape or form. Alderaan was unceremoniously blown up under the justification of a demonstration and "they were asking for it".

No, it was blown up because they were complicit in sedition and treason and were being used to blackmail Leia into revealing the Yavin IV base.

You still haven't answered how many Alderaanians were even part of the Rebel Alliance besides Bail Organa and his adopted daughter. Hell, we don't even know if Alderaan's political elite outside the House of Organa are Rebels, Rebel sympathizers or loyal opposition, but that didn't prevent Tarkin from blowing them up on the grounds of blackmail and demonstration (pretty much like Lord Jax and his interrogation of a New Republic agent about a decade after Alderaan's destruction).

And immediately after Vader rebuked the Princess, Vader's officer commented that it might be dangerous to hold her and that the Senate would become enraged, if we go by the novelization: Vader even mused as much in there. Of course, it's not like the Empire would care much for the rule of law or that Vader in particular would give a rat's ass about it. I'm willing to grant that diplomatic immunity covering sedition could be excluded, though: but based on Vader and stormtrooper officer's dialogue, they didn't have that much of an evidence or at least so much that it would please the Senate. Fortunately for them the Emperor saw fit to dissolve the Senate.

There's a lot of things that could enrage the Senate, but it wouldn't matter if it were still illegal.

And it would matter quite a lot if it was legal or if Vader happened to violate a consular ship without adequate proof.

You know what, I'm going to go through some sources about Alderaan and see what they mention about sedition, rebellion and arming dissidents.

Though Alderaan had long been a democracy, it still retained a royal family: House Organa. The Organas, ruling from the capital, Aldera, took an active role in the Old Republic government and helped oversee the voluntary demilitarization of their world after the bloody Clone Wars. After Palpatine's rise, Bail Organa became a founding member of the Rebel Alliance, and his adopted daughter, Leia, followed in his footsteps.

But Princess Leia was captured above Tatooine by Darth Vader and brought aboard the newly constructed Death Star. Grand Moff Tarkin had planned to use his new weapon on Alderaan - as an example to other free-thinking worlds - but now he could also crush the Rebellion.

The princess was brought to the control center and led to believe that she could save her homeworld by divulging the site of the secret Rebel base. Leia named alocation, but it made no difference - the defenseless planet was obliterated.

Leia Organa disseminated much of the propaganda that helped to bind the Alliance together. Because of her outgoing nature, she traveled from world to world on well-publicized "mercy missions", which were often a cover for her Rebel activities. Darth Vader and the Emperor suspected Organa's involvement, but could not prove it.

<snip>

Captain Antilles of Tantive IV died at the hands of Darth Vader. Leia was brought as a prisoner to Grand Moff Tarkin's newly completed Death Star. She resisted Vader's rigorous interrogations in order to conceal thelocation of the new Rebel headquarters on Yavin 4. Tarkin, anxious to test his Death Star and to reinforce the Emperor's iron grip, found another way to coerce her: he threatened to destroy Leia's peaceful homeworld unless she divulged the information he demanded.

Knowing full well the capabilities of the superweapon, and Tarkin's own prior record of ruthlessness, Leia understood that he was not bluffing. Reluctantly, she announced the location of the Dantooine base, hoping that it had already been abandoned as planned. Tarkin, however, needed to make Alderaan a brutal example for the Rebels and the entire galaxy.

Alderaan formally adopted pacifism after the horrors of the Clone Wars, ridding itself of all major weaponry. Cynics noted that this seemingly idealistic move made it easier for the planet and its respected leader, Bail Organa, to actively oppose the New Order in the Senate - all in the name of the finest traditions of the Republic, of course. Alderaan finally crossed the line between opposition and treason when Bail's successor, his adopted daughter Leia Organa, was caught receiving secret transmissions from Rebels above the planet Toprawa. Leia was interrogated and her homeworld destroyed by the Death Star before her eyes.

All in all, Alderaan had no major weapons with which to oppose Imperial invasion and/or blockade. In fact, it had formally adopted pacifism. So far it seems that only the royal family itself, along with some close friends (Winter, for example) were even working for the Rebellion. And even if that is enough to judge the world treasonous, why didn't the Empire demand Alderaan's own political circles to remove the Organas from power? Alderaan was a democractic world, so surely there was an option for that. Why didn't they simply blockade the planet? Invade it (since the inhabitants couldn't mount an effective resistance besides their planetary shield)?

The answer seems to be that Tarkin wanted his demonstration to be as showy as possible; and that the Empire simply did not care about collateral damage (a planet full of sentient beings). They didn't even try to restrict the world's HoloNet access, since Tycho Celchu was in contact with his parents on Alderaan when Tarkin blew the planet up. Even if the usage of the Death Star could be argued to be necessary to spare Imperial personnel, there is no inclination that any alternative method was even tried beforehand. The Imperials were simply lazy, drunk with power and absolutely loathsome in their disregard for civilian lives and lives of those whom they considered possible Rebel sympathizers.

[Norade]

I'm going to step out of this debate. I'm getting far too defensive and ending up arguing points that I don't even really support in some insane attempt to win.

[Shroom Man 777]

You had it coming. Norade.

[Norade]

You had it coming. Norade.

I don't disagree, that's why I'm stepping away from it. I get way too attached to a debate and end up arguing for a side I don't even agree with at times. That's why I'm going to make an effort to take more time to read before I type, because I'm smarter than what I've showed in these debates and I'd rather show that.

[Shroom Man 777]

Dude, I was just kidding.

I really, really, really couldn't resist it, mang. I just had to say it!

They had it coming! They all had it coming!

I don't deserve this... to die like this! I was building a house!

Deserve's got nothing to do with it!

I'll see you in hell William Shroomy.

Yeah.

We all have it coming.

[Norade]

Dude, I was just kidding.

I really, really, really couldn't resist it, mang. I just had to say it!

They had it coming! They all had it coming!

I don't deserve this! I was building a house!

Deserve's got nothing to do with it!

We all have it coming.

Shroomy, I know you were joking, even I can tell your jokes from when you're making a real point. I couldn't think of a better thread to say that in than this one though.

[Bellosh101]

Also, does anybody know what Palpatine thought of the event? Tarkin seemed pretty nervous afterword ("This plan of yours had better work"). It may be that Tarkin had to end the rebellion right then and there or face punishment from Palpatine for his actions. Hell, he may have been punished even if he had destroyed Yavin 4, as I can't see Palpatine being especially pleased at losing a prominant core world.

The Emperor has placed me in charge of this affair with a free hand, and the decision is mine! And you will have your information that much sooner.

I won't bet on Palpatine giving a damn for the destruction of Alderaan conisdering that the Emperor would have to be a total dumbass to not see what sort of person the Grand Moff was.

[Bakustra]

I have no idea what you are talking about there; how is The Force Unleashed relevant, besides having (to my almost non-existent knowledge) yet another Revan-type super Force-user as Gary Stu main character?

The Force Unleashed offers an alternative version of the events surrounding the Corellian Treaty and Declaration of an Alliance to Restore the Republic, wherein Organa, as well as Bel Iblis and Mothma, was taken aboard the Death Star and almost executed by Palpatine and Vader shortly after signing the Treaty. They escape with the help of said main character, who lends his family crest to the Rebellion as its symbol. This version is not only contradicted by every source that uses the events described in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook but is incredibly stupid in and of itself. Apparently, three politicians can shoot their way out of the Death Star and steal a spaceship when outnumbered, at a minimum, thousands to one just by the people in and around the hangar bay, and thousands to one by the fighters and defensive weaponry aboard the Death Star.

This takes place over a year before ANH, and yet in the interval apparently nobody thinks to arrest Organa or present photographic evidence to denounce him, Mothma, and Bel Iblis or do, well, anything. We are supposed to believe that this Empire, which by all appearances cannot find its collective ass with both hands, maps, and qualified guides, can also wipe the Vong out with trivial ease. That, along with the implausibility of much of the rest of the game, leads me to deem it non-canonical due to contradiction.

Is there some kind of resource you guys/apologists use for these arguments? I had this exact argument thrown at me the last time we had a go-round about the Empire. Or do you have some sort of hive mind that distributes them equitably?

[Shroom Man 777]

The Force Unleashed offers an alternative version of the events surrounding the Corellian Treaty and Declaration of an Alliance to Restore the Republic, wherein Organa, as well as Bel Iblis and Mothma, was taken aboard the Death Star and almost executed by Palpatine and Vader shortly after signing the Treaty. They escape with the help of said main character, who lends his family crest to the Rebellion as its symbol. This version is not only contradicted by every source that uses the events described in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook but is incredibly stupid in and of itself. Apparently, three politicians can shoot their way out of the Death Star and steal a spaceship when outnumbered, at a minimum, thousands to one just by the people in and around the hangar bay, and thousands to one by the fighters and defensive weaponry aboard the Death Star.

Moron. Darth Vader and Palpatine ALLOW them to escape, so they could follow Organa, Bel Iblis and Mothma and find out the location of Alderaan. The stormtroopers aren't incompetent, goddamn it, they were instructed to miss, and to use low-powered shots, and to let those people escape from the Death Star despite the supposedly innumerable defenses arrayed against them inside the battlestation! It was all part of the goddamn plan!

This takes place over a year before ANH, and yet in the interval apparently nobody thinks to arrest Organa or present photographic evidence to denounce him, Mothma, and Bel Iblis or do, well, anything. We are supposed to believe that this Empire, which by all appearances cannot find its collective ass with both hands, maps, and qualified guides, can also wipe the Vong out with trivial ease. That, along with the implausibility of much of the rest of the game, leads me to deem it non-canonical due to contradiction.

Is there some kind of resource you guys/apologists use for these arguments? I had this exact argument thrown at me the last time we had a go-round about the Empire. Or do you have some sort of hive mind that distributes them equitably?

It was part of the plan! The Death Star let them escape and clearly was obviously missing them or setting its superlaser to non-lethal stun rounds! So it could follow them to Alderaan!

[Srelex]

Wasn't the Death Star unfinished in TFU?

[Darth Fanboy]

Alderaan however was a valid military target, and the destruction of it offered a potential to grant victory for the Empire in the current war and make any further insurgency impossible.

Hey dumbass, here's Tarkin's own quote

You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system!

WHY THE SHIT WOULD HE SAY THAT IF ALDERAAN WAS A MILITARY TARGET?

They destroyed it not because they were evil, but because that was the way to win now and forever.

Whoops!

Thus it is the path which minimize the overall death toll of the conflict (one planet vs the whole Galaxy). Judged on the Empire actions, they would used the deterrence provided by the Death Star to increase the exploitation of the Galaxy and oppression to previously unimaginable level (since there is no chance to resist). But winning a galactic scale war with the destruction of one lone planet is not evil by itself.

Of course it is! You're telling me that so long as you win a war it is ok to expedite the process by killing millions, if not billions of innocent people?

I don't want to justify anything, the Rebels were piss poor administrators later on, way unqualified to rule the Galaxy with any effciency. That's a simple fact. So if we look them on their merit of their own, they created a bad regime. However since anything is better than a Galaxy ruled by Palpatine (even a YV ruled Galaxy), their administrative qualities are not really important in the conflict. Who has no horse should accept the mule he has.

But you ARE attempting to justify the Empire blowing up Alderaan, so stop acting like you're not.

And who gives a shit that the New Republic was mismanaged later, that is completely fucking irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the Empire was justified in destroying Alderaan for ANY reason, it is completely irrelevant to whether or not the Empire can be considered a moral and just government.

The Rebels/New Republic had no idea that a few billion zealots on a genocidal crusade were on their way from another galaxy and that they needed to get their shit together to stop that after overthrowing Palpatine TWICE.

[Darth Fanboy]

Pellaeon actually tells the Moffs during the NJO series (Force Heretic 1 maybe?) the obvious by saying something along the lines of "Hey, the Rebels beat us, why should I believe the Empire would have done any better?" This right before he was acting like a total bad ass later on in the book.

[Bakustra]

The Force Unleashed offers an alternative version of the events surrounding the Corellian Treaty and Declaration of an Alliance to Restore the Republic, wherein Organa, as well as Bel Iblis and Mothma, was taken aboard the Death Star and almost executed by Palpatine and Vader shortly after signing the Treaty. They escape with the help of said main character, who lends his family crest to the Rebellion as its symbol. This version is not only contradicted by every source that uses the events described in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook but is incredibly stupid in and of itself. Apparently, three politicians can shoot their way out of the Death Star and steal a spaceship when outnumbered, at a minimum, thousands to one just by the people in and around the hangar bay, and thousands to one by the fighters and defensive weaponry aboard the Death Star.

Moron. Darth Vader and Palpatine ALLOW them to escape, so they could follow Organa, Bel Iblis and Mothma and find out the location of Alderaan. The stormtroopers aren't incompetent, goddamn it, they were instructed to miss, and to use low-powered shots, and to let those people escape from the Death Star despite the supposedly innumerable defenses arrayed against them inside the battlestation! It was all part of the goddamn plan!

Problem: Mr. Gary Stu Starkiller never once says "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you imagine" when fighting the Emperor and Vader at the end of the game. I think that this parallel converges, if you get what I'm saying.

Wasn't the Death Star unfinished in TFU?

If so, then why bring people to it? That's why I'm in favor of ignoring the second half of the game (okay, I'd prefer ignoring it altogether), because it's stupid and we have an out; assume that the second half is young Starkiller's dying hallucinations.

[Srelex]

If so, then why bring people to it? That's why I'm in favor of ignoring the second half of the game (okay, I'd prefer ignoring it altogether), because it's stupid and we have an out; assume that the second half is young Starkiller's dying hallucinations.

So that they can be awed by the Empire's revolutionary advances in disco ball technology, of course.

[Darth Yan]

TFU has some things in it's favor. The rogue shadow is less then a few feet away, so it wouldn't take too long. Plus galen blows himself up less then 15 seconds after they start shooting, and another jedi is with them. Plus palpatine was bullshitting and deliberately allowed himself to lose. They would have had to run 10 feet, to a starship OWNED BY THE HERO with a cloaking device. Plus after Galen blew himself up things became confused. Plus rogue shadow has a cloaking device. So yeah. Your analysis is kind of flawed. They would not have looked back, just jumped immediately. Plus most of the people on Alderaan weren't traitors, but innocents, so killing them was wrong. plus the whole purpose was rule of fear.

[Ritterin Sophia]

If so, then why bring people to it? That's why I'm in favor of ignoring the second half of the game (okay, I'd prefer ignoring it altogether), because it's stupid and we have an out; assume that the second half is young Starkiller's dying hallucinations.

You actually don't get that, the new Galen is a clone with flash imprinted memories, according to a preview on IGN (IIRC, it may be another one but I'm sure if I look I can find it again), so he's trying to figure out if he's Galen Marek or someone entirely else.

[Bakustra]

If so, then why bring people to it? That's why I'm in favor of ignoring the second half of the game (okay, I'd prefer ignoring it altogether), because it's stupid and we have an out; assume that the second half is young Starkiller's dying hallucinations.

You actually don't get that, the new Galen with flash imprinted memories, according to a preview on IGN (IIRC, it may be another one but I'm sure if I look I can find it again), so he's trying to figure out if he's Galen Marek or someone entirely else.

I'm not talking about TFU2, though.

[Thanas]

To be honest, I am quite willing to accept that the Empire can win against the Vong with trivial ease. The dialogue bits pointing that out are good enough for me as well as the fact that even with a conservative and minimalist reading of the sourcebook, the forces described therein far outnumber the Vong.

However - this does not mean Palpatine would have gone to war against the Vong immediately. This is the same guy who was happy enough trading away planets to alien invaders for an obscure bit of technology. He sacrificed worlds and military resources to get a device the Empire could already match in technology. So why won't he do the same with the Vong and their biotechnology? Sure, war will come eventually, but still, some rim worlds would still fall.



In the end though, this dialogue is pointless. We are discussing about whether it was the right thing to do with the benefit of hindsight. Remove that and we have a whole new picture - Palpatine at that time was the highest threat to civilization. Nobody knew the Vong were coming, so their choice to topple the Empire was the morally correct choice.