Box Office: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Turned ‘Star Wars’ Into A $6 Billion Wash

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think a new trilogy should have been all about the old heroes. That may be what the typical old OT fan wanted, but that's ultimately the franchise looking backward, not moving forward. Passing the torch, maybe. I think it needed to be about the changing of the guard, but in a way that is true to who the OT heroes are.

I don't think it should be about old heroes. I am saying it should be about the old heroes growing into a position where they realised they have to pass on the torch. Like Luke realising that he's getting to an age where he cannot run around saving the galaxy at the frontline, and he have to step back to a more Jedi council position and let the younger students do the fieldwork. Same goes to Han and Leia.

That could work. I think the idea of the old heroes realizing that the world needs fresh blood and new ideas to complete the work they started would be both timely and timeless, if done well.

[ray245]

That could work. I think the idea of the old heroes realizing that the world needs fresh blood and new ideas to complete the work they started would be both timely and timeless, if done well.

Or a story where the heroes realised they can't just blow up more bad guys to save the galaxy. It's an easy cop-out for heroes if that's all they need to do to save the galaxy.

[chimericoncogene]

So here's a question. What should the sequel trilogy have even been about? What is the reason this story needs to be told?

While there are lots of problems with the details of the sequel trilogy, this is the underlying problem that really came to a head with Rise of Skywalker. The sequel trilogy ultimately did very little to justify its own existence.

The reorganization of the galaxy into a new stable political equilibrium following the demise of the galactic empire.

An interesting backdrop for the Sequel Trilogy should have shown the unavoidable mess that would have followed the fall of the Galactic Empire, and had our heroes build a New Republic (or Galactic Alliance or whatever) out of the ashes.

Enemies would typically have included the Imperial Remnant(s) of all stripes, the Hutts, the Chiss Empire, the Killiks (or whoever else other than the NR trying to step into the power vacuum), criminal organizations, and possibly New Republic extremists or fallen New Jedi, depending on what kind of story was desired.

It would have been a nice backdrop for some kind of underlying Jedi redemption/fall arc (the journey of e.g. Kylo Ren), in the vein of the Darth Caedus story. The fall and redemption of Kylo Ren (or the fall, or the salvation, etc, etc) possibly by Rey might have been an interesting story. Leia gets to politic/general, you get lots of shooting and new toys to sell from new factions, and you get a nice Jedi arc.

[FaxModem1]

Okay, here's a possible idea. Have it be that the heroes are doing good things, but are focusing on keeping all the plates spinning. If you want inspiration, go with how Young Justice had reasons for the Justice League being busy, with the protagonists of the 'Team' being the ones handling the thing that was causing it all, while also having to deal with the lack of care by those who they share power with.

If you're going to go for heroes who's heroic days are behind them, have it be a mixture of the West Wing style riffing antics and exposition meets The Incredibles. Leia can't lead a ragtag team of people to fight whatever trouble, she has to fight for a relief bill that will save lives for millions of people, while also dealing with the spending bill on the New Republic fleet upgrades, while also dealing with the public works project, etc.

Leia's the type of person to save the galaxy, but she's kind of fucking busy keeping the Republic's head out of it's ass.

Structurally, all her scenes should be akin to this scene out of Charlie Wilson's War, wherein each time she's trying to focus on the main character's problems, some other issue keeps on coming and she has to deal with it, until the heroes do something a little wacky to get her attention:



Leia having to face these type of people as well:



IE, Leia is constantly dealing with the type of people who would send the entire fleet to deal with Star Destroyers, but dealing with an infrastructure package to help the Geonosians rebuild their cities? Why, that's just a waste of taxpayer money. Who cares about those stupid Gungans anyway, with Leia having to gently correct them that it's the Genosians who the latest bill is about.

With Han, have him be someone who used to be a dashing smuggler/Rebel hero, who is now....a freaking bureaucrat. Yeah, he's doing good work and getting stuff where it needs to go, but now he's handling forms all day and it's slowly killing him. His best part in life is when he can find a way to subvert the bureaucracy and just do something like this to get things done:



He's essentially only feeling alive when he's directly helping people, instead of making sure plenty of Item A is getting to Place B, by the time of Date C, while filling out forms D, E, and F, etc. Such a thing can be draining, especially when you don't want to be in that position, and really aren't suited to work there, but if you weren't there, how badly would the people who need help not be helped?

Have Luke be someone who has mastered a lot in the force, and teaching new students. Go full on Martial Arts movie here, and have him be the old master. He's learned a lot, has taught a lot, and is training, but is clearly beyond his prime here. He walks with a cane, both echoing Yoda, and showing that he has scars form when he was a hero for the Rebellion. He can teach, he can even fight, but his best days are clearly behind him.

Summing up, the OT heroes are doing good where they are, and can't really get involved in whatever crisis the movies are going to bring about. As opposed to the Disney ST's version of having them all be failures.

As for what the main plot is about? I'd imagine having it be about something that the original characters never got to fixing would be best. Just something that's always been in the background, but never gotta around to. The Hutts, the slavery going on, and all the organized crime that is still there, and is corrupting Leia's political opponents in the wings.

[ray245]

That will requires a director who isn't JJ Abrams to set up the conflict for the entire sequel trilogy. ANH 2.0 basically render all other possibilities null and void.

[FaxModem1]

That will requires a director who isn't JJ Abrams to set up the conflict for the entire sequel trilogy. ANH 2.0 basically render all other possibilities null and void.

Yeah, I'm thinking Brad Bird would probably be the best pick.

[MKSheppard]

1. You need to capture the core metaphysical conflict of Star Wars: Light Side Force users vs Dark Side.

That was done.

Phantom Menace to Return of the Jedi. The Culmination of the Jedi vs Sith, Light v Dark over thousands of years.

What I'd really like to see is genuine use of the OT characters.

ROS fridged so many people.

Denis Lawson is coming back!

No wait, he has a 2 second cameo as a gunner on the Falcon!

[ray245]

Yeah, I'm thinking Brad Bird would probably be the best pick.

Most directors will be a better pick than JJ Abrams. The media is partly to blame for JJ Abrams getting the job. The media has been giving a massive voice to all the RLM-kind of fans who talked up Abrams as this saviour of Star Wars.

[Vympel]

Feels like I'm going to have to beat this drum for years until its finally absorbed.

If you actually think that TLJ is wildly inconsistent with TFA, that's because you're confusing how TFA made you feel when you walked out of the cinema with the story it actually told.

TFA told a story which in no uncertain terms thoroughly ruined the lives of every single protagonist of the OT. Unambiguously.

It also explicitly turned Luke Skywalker into a MacGuffin, establishing that Luke fucked off for years without telling anyone where he was going, what he was doing, or if he ever planned to come back, with Han explicitly saying that he felt responsible and walked away from everything.

All of that is unamibguously in the damn film.

It's not 'subversion' that Luke was a bitter exile when Rey met him, it's the inescapable consequence of the story TFA told. You just weren't paying attention. And that's fine - in 2015-2017. Because TFA doesn't want you to notice what it's done. It's not nice. But its there. But 2017-2020? No. Stop it.

Just be honest with yourself and stop acting like it came out of nowhere. It didn't. Every attempt to argue there was some other explanation is stupid as shit and sounds like a kid made it up on the playground, and none of it is based on anything actually in the movie ("he was off getting even stronger in the Force!"). Because they're all contrived backwards from wanting to protect Luke's character, and succeed in doing nothing more than turning him into a bizarre god-like inhuman figure who does really damaging things for no good reason.

The same with the empty teases in TFA sort of vaguely alluding to Rey's parents being somehow 'significant'. To the extent that TFA is to blame for this (and I think fan expectation played a role), there's absolutely no indication that her parents could've been someone that would've been anything other than something completely idiotic or totally dramatically inert. If Abrams ever thought Rey had 'special' parents, he clearly had no idea at any point who they were and vastly overestimated how interesting any potential answer could possibly be - if he put any thought into it at all, which I very much doubt.

The implicit pass all the "oh TLJ is inconsistent with TFA" complaining gives JJ Abrams is baffling to me. Nothing in TLJ is subversion for the sake of subversion. It all serves a particular, specific purpose.

[ray245]

Feels like I'm going to have to beat this drum for years until its finally absorbed.

If you actually think that TLJ is wildly inconsistent with TFA, that's because you're confusing how TFA made you feel when you walked out of the cinema with the story it actually told.

TFA told a story which in no uncertain terms thoroughly ruined the lives of every single protagonist of the OT. Unambiguously.

It also explicitly turned Luke Skywalker into a MacGuffin, establishing that Luke fucked off for years without telling anyone where he was going, what he was doing, or if he ever planned to come back, with Han explicitly saying that he felt responsible and walked away from everything.

All of that is unamibguously in the damn film.

It's not 'subversion' that Luke was a bitter exile when Rey met him, it's the inescapable consequence of the story TFA told. You just weren't paying attention. And that's fine - in 2015-2017. Because TFA doesn't want you to notice what it's done. It's not nice. But its there. But 2017-2020? No. Stop it.

Just be honest with yourself and stop acting like it came out of nowhere. It didn't. Every attempt to argue there was some other explanation is stupid as shit and sounds like a kid made it up on the playground, and none of it is based on anything actually in the movie ("he was off getting even stronger in the Force!"). Because they're all contrived backwards from wanting to protect Luke's character, and succeed in doing nothing more than turning him into a bizarre god-like inhuman figure who does really damaging things for no good reason.

The same with the empty teases in TFA sort of vaguely alluding to Rey's parents being somehow 'significant'. To the extent that TFA is to blame for this (and I think fan expectation played a role), there's absolutely no indication that her parents could've been someone that would've been anything other than something completely idiotic or totally dramatically inert. If Abrams ever thought Rey had 'special' parents, he clearly had no idea at any point who they were and vastly overestimated how interesting any potential answer could possibly be - if he put any thought into it at all, which I very much doubt.

The implicit pass all the "oh TLJ is inconsistent with TFA" complaining gives JJ Abrams is baffling to me. Nothing in TLJ is subversion for the sake of subversion. It all serves a particular, specific purpose.

I think you should consider the possibility that JJ Abrams give absolutely no shit about what he wrote, given that TROS itself shit on the story-threads in TFA.

There's a difference between what was written vs what JJ Abrams might have intended to do. This is a director that fails to convey what he intends to convey in many of the scenes that he shot ( Kirk looking at Alice Eve, Chewie walking past Leia and etc). You are giving too much faith in directorial vision and intention to a director who has never give a shit about good story writing and good world-building. I am more inclined to believe many of those dialogue are merely throwaway lines that JJ Abrams did not care about at all, based on what we saw for ROS.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think you badly misread his post if you think he's defending JJ, ray.

I also don't know if there's much point paying attention to what Abrams says his intention was, given that Abrams has a history of lying through his teeth (he's been known to deliberately leak misinformation to hide spoilers, but I wouldn't put it past him to lie about his intent to try to make a bad decision sound more well-intentioned than it was).

He's also got a loooong history of low-key and not-so-low-key sexism and racism in his films, dating back long before RoS. Like the completely gratuitous underwear shot of Alice Eve you referenced above, or making Kirk a Peeping Tom, or changing Sulu's sword to a Katana 'cause, you know, he's Japanese, and of course we can't forget his snow-white Khan Noonien Singh.

Which might be a clue as to why certain fans (not Vympel, obviously) tend to defend him despite his shitting all over the Sainted OT as well as TLJ, while making Rian Johnson the scapegoat for all of his fuck-ups. Because they sense deep down that he's one of them. He's not "woke". He's a fan bro.

[ray245]

I think you badly misread his post if you think he's defending JJ, ray.

I also don't know if there's much point paying attention to what Abrams says his intention was, given that Abrams has a history of lying through his teeth (he's been known to deliberately leak misinformation to hide spoilers, but I wouldn't put it past him to lie about his intent to try to make a bad decision sound more well-intentioned than it was).

He's also got a loooong history of low-key and not-so-low-key sexism and racism in his films, dating back long before RoS. Like the completely gratuitous underwear shot of Alice Eve you referenced above, or making Kirk a Peeping Tom, or changing Sulu's sword to a Katana 'cause, you know, he's Japanese, and of course we can't forget his snow-white Khan Noonien Singh.

Which might be a clue as to why certain fans (not Vympel, obviously) tend to defend him despite his shitting all over the Sainted OT as well as TLJ, while making Rian Johnson the scapegoat for all of his fuck-ups. Because they sense deep down that he's one of them. He's not "woke". He's a fan bro.

I am saying it's clear JJ Abrams has an intention to move story in certain way, he is just bad at executing it. The whole Rey mystery parentage thing is something JJ Abrams want to play around with, even if the script he wrote does not support that.

I think Vympel is giving JJ Abrams too much credit for his writing if JJ Arbams in TFA.

[The Romulan Republic]

Hell, he can't even follow a story through to conclusion in one film very well.

Oh, hey, this movie's about finding Luke.

Oh, now its about destroying Death Star III.

Oh, shit, we gotta resolve the Luke plot. Okay, um... And then R2 wakes up for no reason! Problem solved!

Jesus Christ.

[Vympel]

I think Vympel is giving JJ Abrams too much credit for his writing if JJ Arbams in TFA.

Yeah to be clear, that's definitely not my intent. I think at this stage it's clear that if Abrams had actually written Episode VIII he would've acknowledged none of what TFA implies. Luke would've just been Wise Yoda and the audience would be expected to just forget about just how ridiculous Luke's behavior was in favor of some contrived "I was waiting until the time was right" handwave before the film rushed off to the next scene.

He would've had no interest in actually justfiying the situation TFA created, if he even noticed that it had been created in the first place.

(Also, its important to not erase Kasdan from TFA - a much better writer)

Which might be a clue as to why certain fans (not Vympel, obviously) tend to defend him despite his shitting all over the Sainted OT as well as TLJ, while making Rian Johnson the scapegoat for all of his fuck-ups. Because they sense deep down that he's one of them. He's not "woke". He's a fan bro.

I don't know, maybe. Another explanation is that people don't like to admit things that call their own judgement into question. I've argued everything TFA does with people like this a bunch of times over the years. The consistent theme that emerges is that they walked out of TFA without noticing what it implied, and rather than admit even basic facts about what happened in the movie, they prefer to come up with convoluted, poorly supported apologetics* that conveniently absolve them of their apparent failure to only notice what they hated in the despised and franchise-ruining TLJ rather than the previous film which seems to have dazzled them into a totally incurious stupor that's lasted for years.

(I've never been particularly hard on TFA and I'm not at all ashamed to say I still enjoy it, despite its apparent flaws and lazy premise.)

*"Luke didn't abandon the galaxy! What, who said in TFA that he did exactly that? Who's this Han person? Don't know him. Anyway forget all that - he was off on a secret quest! But he wanted to be found, so he left a (incomplete, and explicitly quite useless) map! Which was found by Lor San Tekka years later! What do you mean that's insane? It makes perfect sense! It's just so obvious that JJ Abrams had a Plan, which Rian Johnson Ruined!"

[ray245]

I think Vympel is giving JJ Abrams too much credit for his writing if JJ Arbams in TFA.

Yeah to be clear, that's definitely not my intent. I think at this stage it's clear that if Abrams had actually written Episode VIII he would've acknowledged none of what TFA implies. Luke would've just been Wise Yoda and the audience would be expected to just forget about just how ridiculous Luke's behavior was in favor of some contrived "I was waiting until the time was right" handwave before the film rushed off to the next scene.

He would've had no interest in actually justfiying the situation TFA created, if he even noticed that it had been created in the first place.

(Also, its important to not erase Kasdan from TFA - a much better writer)

Which might be a clue as to why certain fans (not Vympel, obviously) tend to defend him despite his shitting all over the Sainted OT as well as TLJ, while making Rian Johnson the scapegoat for all of his fuck-ups. Because they sense deep down that he's one of them. He's not "woke". He's a fan bro.

I don't know, maybe. Another explanation is that people don't like to admit things that call their own judgement into question. I've argued everything TFA does with people like this a bunch of times over the years. The consistent theme that emerges is that they walked out of TFA without noticing what it implied, and rather than admit even basic facts about what happened in the movie, they prefer to come up with convoluted, poorly supported apologetics* that conveniently absolve them of their apparent failure to only notice what they hated in the despised and franchise-ruining TLJ rather than the previous film which seems to have dazzled them into a totally incurious stupor that's lasted for years.

(I've never been particularly hard on TFA and I'm not at all ashamed to say I still enjoy it, despite its apparent flaws and lazy premise.)

*"Luke didn't abandon the galaxy! What, who said in TFA that he did exactly that? Who's this Han person? Don't know him. Anyway forget all that - he was off on a secret quest! But he wanted to be found, so he left a (incomplete, and explicitly quite useless) map! Which was found by Lor San Tekka years later! What do you mean that's insane? It makes perfect sense! It's just so obvious that JJ Abrams had a Plan, which Rian Johnson Ruined!"

The problem is Abrams had a known problem behind what he intends to depict on screen and what actually ends up on-screen. The Chewie walking past Leia encapsulate his flaws perfectly.

As a visual storyteller, the fact that he fails to pick up a rather obvious visual language problem is a big sign that he is shit at communicating things to his audience. I think he did a lot of things that fans did pick up on, but he didn't realise what is actually written on the script. Him failing to get what Kasdan wrote is not something that will surprise me.

Kasdan can write how Luke abandoned the Galaxy and Abrams can still take it as he is biding his time. Put it this way, Abrams is your typical average fanboy on the Internet. The way he thinks about storytelling and writing is exactly the same as those fanboy. He is just lucky to have all the connections and people willing to overlook his prior flaws compared to your average fanboy.

[Vympel]

The problem is Abrams had a known problem behind what he intends to depict on screen and what actually ends up on-screen. The Chewie walking past Leia encapsulate his flaws perfectly.

As a visual storyteller, the fact that he fails to pick up a rather obvious visual language problem is a big sign that he is shit at communicating things to his audience. I think he did a lot of things that fans did pick up on, but he didn't realise what is actually written on the script. Him failing to get what Kasdan wrote is not something that will surprise me.

Kasdan can write how Luke abandoned the Galaxy and Abrams can still take it as he is biding his time. Put it this way, Abrams is your typical average fanboy on the Internet. The way he thinks about storytelling and writing is exactly the same as those fanboy. He is just lucky to have all the connections and people willing to overlook his prior flaws compared to your average fanboy.

That sounds scarily accurate.

[Elfdart]

This is a few days old, but it was a good one:

Gallows humor runs strong with you, so you might like this:

[Elfdart]

So at what point do you think that Luke, Han, and Chewie became "known" as key rebels?

Empire Strikes Back seems like as good any point as to use for that; since at this point, the Rebellion is no longer about surviving and they're now looking ahead towards ENDGAME -- ROTJ happens about a year after ESB.

Aside from Obi-Wan, Han and Chewie would have been found out soonest, since their ship was reeled into the Death Star. My guess is that since Tarkin and his officers were in contact with the command on Tatooine, they were already receiving inquiries about the Millennium Falcon. Add to that any surveillance footage of the heroes running around the battle station and they might have identified the whole bunch (aside from Luke) before they escaped. As for Luke, I'd say somehow his name was found out shortly after Yavin, whether inquiries on Tatooine turned something up, or someone in the Alliance blabbed, or an Imperial spy discovered Luke's identity.

[Captain Seafort]

any surveillance footage of the heroes running around the battle station and they might have identified the whole bunch (aside from Luke) before they escaped. As for Luke, I'd say somehow his name was found out shortly after Yavin, whether inquiries on Tatooine turned something up, or someone in the Alliance blabbed, or an Imperial spy discovered Luke's identity.

Even Luke would probably have been identified from surveillance. Even if Owen and Beru had registered him under a false name (perhaps passing him off as their son rather than nephew), I suspect his ID would have had his photo and (now rather charred) address.