Why the empire is evil...

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 10:11pm

I would argue that as long as the empire had an emperor, it would do well. imperialism isnt a flaw in itself, and the imperials did bring stability. imperial credits were used galaxy wide, in faith of the system, stormtroopers and stardestroyers patrolled everywhere (how many rebels you seen fight the imps? just shows you good their security was in maintaining the naiton, as per their job), and even crime was being hunted down. the hutts, for example, nearly got their moon scorched.

Shadow Walker · Post by **Shadow Walker** » 2003-01-22 10:36pm

Enforcer, I'll cede that the Empire was relatively stable while the Emporer was alive. But it was not a long term stability. Perhaps that is the nature of Empires forged by tryants: they only last as long as the tyrants that make them.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 10:39pm

they last as long as there's a line of succession. rome was a military based empire, and they named their heirs. lasted for centuries. if palpy had done the same, a minor station's destruction wouldn't matter.

his overconfidence was his weakness.

Shadow Walker · Post by **Shadow Walker** » 2003-01-22 10:54pm

Enforcer Talen wrote: his overconfidence was his weakness.

Big time. Also Palipatine was a ruler more concerned with his own personal power (getting new aprentices, for example) then making a stable government.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 10:58pm

Id disagree. he made the military from the ground up, made it respected and feared, set up his police force and the courts. that remenants have survived even after 25 yrs of war with the new republic, the shattering of power, leadership, and supply bases says something for strength.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-22 11:00pm

I abstained from voting. I don't think that any government is inherently good or evil, as all governments do good for some people and harm to others.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 11:02pm

heh. governments have different morals from people.

Shadow Walker · Post by **Shadow Walker** » 2003-01-22 11:09pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:Id disagree. he made the military from the ground up, made it respected and feared, set up his police force and the courts. that remenants have survived even after 25 yrs of war with the new republic, the shattering of power, leadership, and supply bases says something for strength.

Yes, Palipatine did build the military, police, etc. from the ground up. These things were neccasary to keep him in power. A weakness of these systems was that the Emporer picked men who were loyal to him alone. Not that this is a bad thing for a tyrant to want in his men, but these commanders had no loyalty to the Empire, just it's commander. This might explain why, after the Emporer's death, many high ranking officers tried to carve out thier own kingdoms. They had no loyalty to the state. Of course there are those who WERE loyal to the Empire (like Palleon) but they were too few to keep the Empire from losing much of its glory.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 11:12pm

Shadow Walker wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:Id disagree. he made the military from the ground up, made it respected and feared, set up his police force and the courts. that remenants have survived even after 25 yrs of war with the new republic, the shattering of power, leadership, and supply bases says something for strength.
Yes, Palipatine did build the military, police, etc. from the ground up. These things were neccasary to keep him in power. A weakness of these systems was that the Emporer picked men who were loyal to him alone. Not that this is a bad thing for a tyrant to want in his men, but these commanders had no loyalty to the Empire, just it's commander. This might explain why, after the Emporer's death, many high ranking officers tried to carve out thier own kingdoms. They had no loyalty to the state. Of course there are those who WERE loyal to the Empire (like Palleon) but they were to few to keep the Empire from losing much of its glory.

those who want power - the ones who have intelligence - generally leave a system more effecient then the way they found it, because they want more direct control. its a nice side effect. again, if the emperor had an heir, there wouldnt have been a problem. the pwoer vaccuum demanded filling, which started the civil war.

so, how does this compare to your views that the empire is evil? it provides stability, and better then a number of governments. what more can one demand of it?

Shadow Walker · Post by **Shadow Walker** » 2003-01-22 11:18pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:
so, how does this compare to your views that the empire is evil? it provides stability, and better then a number of governments. what more can one demand of it?

I'd like a government formed by someone who actually cares more about the welfare of the people then his own personal power. If the Emporer had actual cared about his subjects, perhaps he wouldn't have had a rebellion on his hands that eventually killed him and nearly destroyed his empire.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 2003-01-22 11:31pm

Shadow Walker wrote: Yes, Palipatine did build the military, police, etc. from the ground up. These things were neccasary to keep him in power. A weakness of these systems was that the Emporer picked men who were loyal to him alone. Not that this is a bad thing for a tyrant to want in his men, but these commanders had no loyalty to the Empire, just it's commander. This might explain why, after the Emporer's death, many high ranking officers tried to carve out thier own kingdoms. They had no loyalty to the state. Of course there are those who WERE loyal to the Empire (like Palleon) but they were too few to keep the Empire from losing much of its glory.

Were any of them truly loyal to him? Even the members of his allegedly hand-picked coterie of advisors turned against him - his executor fantasized about seizing the throne (Darth Vader), his inquisitors left him (Aldric Brandl), his admirals betrayed his service (Harkov, Zaarin), his hands proved disloyal (Lumiya, Arden Lyn), and it was his guardsman who killed him (Carnor Jax).

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 11:31pm

if a man is to keep his personal power, he *has* to care about their welfare. every tyrant who doesnt dies very very quickly. stability is worth a lot, and he gave it to them, so he could have power. they knew it, and signed up all the same. even skywalker wanted to join the academy, a minor farmboy on an insignificant planet millions of stars away from the capital.

the rebellion, from what I can see, is quite small. if we use sea skimmer's number http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=10951 that the rebles lost 20% of their entire fleet, then even if they lost the endor fleet, they only had 4 times again left - under a hundred capital ships. from what we know of sw production capabilities, that is nothing.

as well, the ds raid was high priority, in which they bid their top admiral and the last jedi knight. it is not likely they had huge forces hiding off screen somewhere, so it appears the rebellion was truly insignificant. a city's worth of terrorists that got lucky.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-22 11:32pm

Loki wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote: Yes, Palipatine did build the military, police, etc. from the ground up. These things were neccasary to keep him in power. A weakness of these systems was that the Emporer picked men who were loyal to him alone. Not that this is a bad thing for a tyrant to want in his men, but these commanders had no loyalty to the Empire, just it's commander. This might explain why, after the Emporer's death, many high ranking officers tried to carve out thier own kingdoms. They had no loyalty to the state. Of course there are those who WERE loyal to the Empire (like Palleon) but they were too few to keep the Empire from losing much of its glory.
Were any of them truly loyal to him? Even the members of his allegedly hand-picked coterie of advisors turned against him - his executor fantasized about seizing the throne (Darth Vader), his inquisitors left him (Aldric Brandl), his admirals betrayed his service (Harkov, Zaarin), his hands proved disloyal (Lumiya, Arden Lyn), and it was his guardsman who killed him (Carnor Jax).

how loyal do you need? to be loved isn't neccessary - only to be obeyed. and palpatine got that from vader till the very end.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 2003-01-22 11:51pm

... Until the very end of the movie. Who knows how long he'd have lasted if he hadn't gotten tossed off the balcony? A lot longer than if he'd been left alone while frying Luke.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-01-24 10:06am

I think Palpatine's government was ike the Roman Empire, in that there was order but not much freedom. The Rebel's so called government was the opposite side of the coin.

One could argue that anarchy, although it is total freedom from any kind of rule, allows conditions to exist in which people can take away the freedoms of others.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-24 11:58am

anarchy means *everything* is allowed. and the man with the fast draw wins.

not a good idea with the weapons their using can melt cities.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-24 06:37pm

Simply from the fact that the Empire is racist, sexist, xenophobic, and practices slavery you can clearly see that it is an unjust organization. What more debate is there past that?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-24 09:15pm

racist?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-26 12:48am

Sure. You need to look no further than the OT to see only white male humans serving in the Empire without exception. Compare that to the Rebel Alliance's colorful display of aliens, women, and different races of humans.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-26 01:40am

we see one black guy in the rebellion, and this makes them paragons of racial equality? Especially when we have only seen four black people ever in the SW Galaxy?

terror tactics on it's own citizens that are in armed rebellion - key difference there, and it's also been done a lot in history, often in civilized nations. if you are declaring war against your government, expect consequences.

did someone say my name?

Seriously, if Alderaan had no weapons, what do you call the Turbolaser on the Tantive, or the blasters the troops on board were carrying?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-26 04:08pm

consequences wrote:we see one black guy in the rebellion, and this makes them paragons of racial equality? Especially when we have only seen four black people ever in the SW Galaxy?

Are you serious? There's at least one black Rebel X-Wing pilot, there's Lando Calrissian, there's a black Rebel commando on Endor (and those are supposed to be elite soldiers, why would they assign different races to elite units if they were racist?). Not to mention they gave Lando the rank of general. So that's three more blacks in the Rebel Alliance than the Empire. NTM the fact that there used to be different races and women in the Old Republic. Apparantly, the Empire has done away with all of that as we see no example of ethinic diversity or women at all in any OT movie. It seems to me that Lucas wanted to show ethnic diversity and women in the few shots you see Old Republic officers and Rebel personnel, to contrast that with the all-white male humans serving in the Empire. Makes perfect sense to me that the Empire was racist. And notice that all of those that attended the Imperial Academy and became Rebel pilots in the early years (ANH-ESB era) were all white human males. My theory is that because the Rebels had no starfighter pilots, they needed to get experienced pilots at first to train their own. This would have been critical as they couldn't afford to lose their valuable starfighters because of crappy pilots. That is why they would attend the Imperial Academy and then defect to the Rebel Alliance upon completion of training.

EDIT: I might as well add in that the Naboo forces had blacks in the NRSF. Bespin security forces also employed blacks. The Jedi Order also contained many different races, genders, and species.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-26 04:12pm

Diversity isn't limited to the human race... the Rebellion (and the Jedi Order) is full of non-human aliens. Yet the Empire seems to be made up soley of white british guys!

; )

Then again, in movies about the Roman Empire, it's usually the British who play the Romans, so go figure.

Their stability is a joke.. the Empire lasts for 50 years, tops, the Republic endured for at least a thousand years (or a thousand "generations" whatever).

The Empire's biggest mistake was building the Death Star. This single feat created probably the most problems and lead to their eventual downfall.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-26 04:16pm

Kurgan wrote:Diversity isn't limited to the human race... the Rebellion (and the Jedi Order) is full of non-human aliens. Yet the Empire seems to be made up soley of white british guys!

I am well aware of this. However, he was only questioning the issue of racism in the Empire.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-26 04:21pm

The biggest clue that Alderaan "has no weapons" is that no fleet came out to meet the Death Star. Nobody fired ion cannons, nothing.

They just sat there, while this heavily armed battle station parked in front of them, and then fired.

The Empire was either so confident in the power of the death star, or they KNEW Alderaan had no weapons. We didn't see a single escort ship for the DS when it came upon Alderaan!

No calls for surrender, no radio chatter ("Why are you threatening our planet? Prepare to be fired upon if you do not withdraw!" etc).

It makes sense that the personal guard of a Republic Senator would have armed guards. Even the supposedly pacifist and weak Naboo had armed guards protecting their Queen.

They just weren't POWERFUL weapons and they weren't anywhere near enough to repell an invasion (even a planetary shield isn't much against a large enough battle fleet), much less the superweapon of the Empire.

As a Senator of the Empire and royalty, Princess Leia would be entitled to some more protection than the average Alderaan citizen, I would wager. That alone doesn't prove that Alderaan was armed to the teeth and just incompetent in battle when threatened.

Now that I think about it, even if the Empire somehow couldn't break through the planetary shield of Alderaan with an orbital bombardment from a fleet of ISD's (and force the planet to surrender), they could still have landed walkers like they did on Hoth, or even, if they wanted to avoid Imperial troop casualties (not citizen casualties, since Alderaan was a member world), they could have simply blockaded the planet.

Heck, if the crappy Trade Federation can blockade a planet, surely the much larger and more well equipped (and better trained) Empire can easily cut off their supplies, which would encourage the people to force their leaders to surrender or discuss terms.

They had so many options open to them, but instead they chose to blow up the entire planet, in typical evil Empire fashion!

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-26 04:23pm

To sum up:

I would expect even the most peaceful planets to have an armed police force, and rich people (if they exist) to have weaopns of some sort stashed away for personal protection, but not anything to repel an invasion. Again, take the Naboo for example...

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Why the empire is evil...

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