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McC
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Post by McC »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Shut up Spanky if you're not going to say anything of substance or constructiveness.
Can we apply this to everyone? I don't mean this to be inflammatory, but this thread has deviated from its intended purpose and turned into a question of my character. :?
Illuminatus Primus wrote:He's being evasive, refusing to debate logically, refusing to clarify points, nitpickes and refuses to awknowledge or develop his own alternative theory, and doesn't refute the existing theory. He simply repeats his claims ad nauseum.
Are you not reading my latest posts? :?
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

revprez wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:He's being evasive, refusing to debate logically, refusing to clarify points, nitpickes and refuses to awknowledge or develop his own alternative theory, and doesn't refute the existing theory. He simply repeats his claims ad nauseum.
Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the focus of this debate on lens assumption?

Rev Prez
No, it's on how fast it took the superlaser beam to leave the grouping and hit Alderaan. McC is bringing up other crap to stall, make himself look smart, and further his agenda.
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Post by McC »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, it's on how fast it took the superlaser beam to leave the grouping and hit Alderaan. McC is bringing up other crap to stall, make himself look smart, and further his agenda.
Dude, seriously, will you please tell me what's wrong in my actual speed calculations so I can discuss it with you instead of just telling me that it's wrong in some abstract way? You're doing the exact same things of which you're accusing me.
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Post by revprez »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No, it's on how fast it took the superlaser beam to leave the grouping and hit Alderaan. McC is bringing up other crap to stall, make himself look smart, and further his agenda.
Okay, I'll go over the discussion and weigh in later.

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Post by McC »

revprez wrote:Location: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Hey, we should put our heads together in person on this some time! :) I go to school at Northeastern University near the Fens.
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Post by revprez »

McC wrote:Hey, we should put our heads together in person on this some time! :) I go to school at Northeastern University near the Fens.
Hey hey! Cool! We have a lot of kids from Northeastern come by. You've got some fine bonasses there. Tell you what, I'll hit you up next time we're getting shitfaced. You can probably link up with whatever NE crew's coming by.

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Post by McC »

revprez wrote:Hey hey! Cool! We have a lot of kids from Northeastern come by. You've got some fine bonasses there. Tell you what, I'll hit you up next time we're getting shitfaced. You can probably link up with whatever NE crew's coming by.
Drinking presents something of a problem for me, actually, due to a medical condition with my stomach. Plus my work hours are funny (I'm on co-op this semester). However, if you want to work out some time where I could hop over to MIT and we could chat and such, that'd be cool. Probably should do that via e-mail rather than here on the forum, though.

Anyway, back to questioning my character and, oh yeah, the superlaser's speed. ;)
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Post by revprez »

McC wrote:
revprez wrote:Drinking presents something of a problem for me, actually, due to a medical condition with my stomach. Plus my work hours are funny (I'm on co-op this semester). However, if you want to work out some time where I could hop over to MIT and we could chat and such, that'd be cool. Probably should do that via e-mail rather than here on the forum, though.
No prob. You should check out the new Z Center. It's the shit.
Anyway, back to questioning my character and, oh yeah, the superlaser's speed. ;)
I'll weigh in later.

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Post by Darth Wong »

It seems to me that the last several pages began with:
McC wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Yeah, I know, but why the hell should that matter?
If you know the focal length of the lens in question, you can determine the field of view of the lens, and thus the size of the frame in ANH when we see Alderaan, and thus the minimum Z distance the superlaser must have traveled over the 7-8 frame span of time, thus telling us the speed of the superlaser.
And I don't see why any of that flaming was necessary, since he had already conceded earlier that he could not justify his assumption that the "omniscient observer's" camera must be assumed to have the same focal length as the physical cameras used to make the special effects in 1977 (leaving aside the fact that the SE version was completely CGI, and there was no physical camera at all).
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Post by Lord Poe »

McC wrote:

I don't think it's as false as you're suggesting:

"What is Canon? The Creators Speak: Star Wars"
snip

Discussed here
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Post by Darth Wong »

Has McC changed his mind about it being an unjustified assumption to treat the omniscient observer's camera as identical to the physical FX camera?
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Post by McC »

Lord Poe wrote:snip

Discussed here
Certainly a matter that is somewhat tenuous. I realize the stance of the majority of people here, but it still seems to me that there's some slack in exactly where the line falls.

As I've said, though, I don't want to ignore the EU, I just want to analyze its 'data points' as a secondary priority. The first priority (to me) is to analyze what we see on film. Then, go back and rationalize the EU stuff into it. If it can be rationalized, excellent. If not, then it's a historical inaccuracy.
Darth Wong wrote:Has McC changed his mind about it being an unjustified assumption to treat the omniscient observer's camera as identical to the physical FX camera?
Nope. I concede that we can't assume that the physical FX camera is the same as the 'documentor' camera. However, I do point out that the calculations based on the novel distance and the filmic frame rate yield remarkably similar results to the lens method calculations. But this is little more than coincidence.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Ender wrote:It has as much proof for it as Mad's TL theory that we agree is right: It rationalizes what we see with what we know:
You don't discharge the coolant, you circulate it to radiate it away; in fact the E-11 has an outersleev dedicated to increasing the surface area for that. But we do see steam/smoke/something come from the barrel of blasters and occassionally we see discharges from TLs.
Mad's theory is irrelevant to this discussion, so don't bother trying to dodge the issue by mentioning it.

Incidentally, I've discussed the issue of "waste gasses" with Curtis, and he made mention to me that his intention was that the "waste gasses" were to be the tibanna "coolant" gas. This is consistent with the apparent existence of a refilling port for blaster gas (the gas needs to be expended before it is replaced.)
My explanation accounts for it; yours requires them to have less engineering knowledge and be more wasteful then we are now.
Bullshit. Your explanation requires more assumptions, as you have yet to actually provide any evidence to back up your assertion. For that matter, how do you *know* it is as impractical/wasteful as you claim? Having waste heat "carried off" by say, a gas in fact makes sense (particularily as an emergency measure.). For that matter, the gas could very well be "recycled" for other purposes (the other forms of blasters, for example, which would explain the apparent uses of tibanna gas as "ammunition."
As am I.
You have an odd way of going about it, then.
Hypocritical much? You did the same WRT the ISDs/Destroyers.
So you think I'm doing it so you think its perfectly acceptable to do so. What kind of logic is that?
Explain to me how the explanation as presented in the literature is not wrong and that that explanation should not be ignored in favor of finding a new interpratation Connor.
Because quite simply we only ignore evidence when there is no other choice to do so, not because "its stupid and I don't like it." Dismissal of evidence is a last resort, not a convenience.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

McC wrote: See most recent calculation post. Turns out that the c beam theory is still wrong, based on the union of novelization and film information, and actually closely coincides with the figures I was deriving with my FOV method (although this could easily simply be sheer luck).
Its not wrong. At best, you simply may have established a possible lower
limit. That does not invalidate Curtis' observations in the least. (Do you also need to be told the difference between lower and upper limits?)

There are additional considerations that complicate your "observation". For example, if the "particle beam" only moved at .25c, care to explain where the Death Star gets all the "mass" for the beam (they can't carry it onboard the Death Star - no fuel tanks.) And how they release it - since the Death Star appears to use "crystals" as partt of the firing mechanism.

And for that matter, since they clearly have the power generation capabilities for it, why would they use such a clearly inefficient method?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

On E-11 coolant:
[i]Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology[/i], page 6 wrote:To prevent dangerous heat buildup, the E-11's cooling coils force-feed a liquid cooling agent called freelol through an intricate capillary system that carrries heat away from vital components and into the forward vent capacitator.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:On E-11 coolant:
[i]Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology[/i], page 6 wrote:To prevent dangerous heat buildup, the E-11's cooling coils force-feed a liquid cooling agent called freelol through an intricate capillary system that carrries heat away from vital components and into the forward vent capacitator.
It's sad that someone actually wrote that. The whole idea of capillary systems is to induce fluid flow without driving pressure. In a forced-flow situation, capillary systems only create frictional drag on fluid flow (you're better off with relatively unrestricted fluid channels).
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:On E-11 coolant:
[i]Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology[/i], page 6 wrote:To prevent dangerous heat buildup, the E-11's cooling coils force-feed a liquid cooling agent called freelol through an intricate capillary system that carrries heat away from vital components and into the forward vent capacitator.
It's sad that someone actually wrote that. The whole idea of capillary systems is to induce fluid flow without driving pressure. In a forced-flow situation, capillary systems only create frictional drag on fluid flow (you're better off with relatively unrestricted fluid channels).
So do we say the author's a moron, and throw it out, or assume on or the other on the fluid circulation?

Interestingly, the illustration seems to contradict the fluff--the fluid is directed into coils around the barrels, and then coils around the reciever to radiate some of that away.

No matter what, I think its pretty clear that coolant is fluid and not Tibanna in the E-11.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:So do we say the author's a moron, and throw it out, or assume on or the other on the fluid circulation?
Well, the author is obviously ignorant of technology, but that goes without saying. As for our reaction, it's difficult to say how one should react to a statement which is obviously wrong. It seems arbitrary to simply choose one of several possible interpretations of exactly which way it's gone wrong.
Interestingly, the illustration seems to contradict the fluff--the fluid is directed into coils around the barrels, and then coils around the reciever to radiate some of that away.

No matter what, I think its pretty clear that coolant is fluid and not Tibanna in the E-11.
Not necessarily. Gases are technically considered fluids as well, which is why the study of aerodynamics falls under the category of "fluid mechanics". Moreover, in real-life, pressurized hydrogen is a superb coolant (except for that little "blow up in the event of a leak" drawback) with an astonishingly high specific energy of 14.3 kJ/(kgK) and (obviously) very low viscosity, so while it seems counter-intuitive, it is not unthinkable to use a gas as a fluid coolant.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:Not necessarily. Gases are technically considered fluids as well, which is why the study of aerodynamics falls under the category of "fluid mechanics". Moreover, in real-life, pressurized hydrogen is a superb coolant (except for that little "blow up in the event of a leak" drawback) with an astonishingly high specific energy of 14.3 kJ/(kgK) and (obviously) very low viscosity, so while it seems counter-intuitive, it is not unthinkable to use a gas as a fluid coolant.
I was tempted by the AOTC ICS placing superfluid coolants in the Naboo Yacht.
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Post by McC »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Its not wrong. At best, you simply may have established a possible lower limit. That does not invalidate Curtis' observations in the least. (Do you also need to be told the difference between lower and upper limits?)
It does not invalidate them in and of themselves, but look at this:
Star Wars Technical Commentaries wrote:The beam that struck Alderaan took less than a second to progate from the dish to the target. The range was about 75000km, which is about a quarter of a light-second. Thus the beam's speed is equal or approiximately equal to the speed of light.
Whether you're talking about a visible tracer or not, it takes at least one second to reach Alderaan (closer to two -- it depends whether you regard Leia's reaction as concurret with the firing frames or in sequence with them). In order to travel at/near c, the beam/bolt would have had to have been travelling for only 0.25 seconds (6f @ 24fps, 7.5f @ 30fps). This coincides with the number of frames that the superlaser "tracer" is in view in the same shot as Alderaan before it impacts the planet's shield. It does not include the frames immediately after the tributary beams are forming the 'central beam' nor does it include Leia's reaction shot (which I see no reason to deem as not being part of a linear sequence rather than a coincident event). So, unless the "tracer wave" element that everyone continues to bring up can travel ahead of the beam as well as lag behind, then a c-speed beam seems impossible for at least this scene. If you do the temporal calculation in a short a time span as possible ("tracer" visible streaking from DS, no Leia shots included), it takes 27-28 frames, yielding a maximum speed of ~82,000 km/s. So unless superlasers (and TLs and lasers) have variable velocities (and I can't think of a reason why this would make sense)...
Connor MacLeod wrote:There are additional considerations that complicate your "observation". For example, if the "particle beam" only moved at .25c, care to explain where the Death Star gets all the "mass" for the beam (they can't carry it onboard the Death Star - no fuel tanks.) And how they release it - since the Death Star appears to use "crystals" as partt of the firing mechanism.
*shrug* Where does the DS get all its fuel for its reactor? Who's to say it's not the same material? The DS obviously doesn't carry hypermatter, which in turn has an obviously high energy density. As such, the beam might be composed of this (I'm speculating, not making an assertion that I intend to actually back up -- just throwing it out as an idea). The crystals (I'm not sure where they're located -- are they located at the firing 'ports' or further in?) may be involved in the same way 'lasers' have been suggested to be involved in turbolasers -- as mechanisms to increase gaseous energy through heating. Again, mere speculation.
Connor MacLeod wrote:And for that matter, since they clearly have the power generation capabilities for it, why would they use such a clearly inefficient method?
Can you elaborate on what you mean?
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Post by McC »

On Tibanna gas/blaster ammo

Everything I've read on the subject suggests that blasters require two 'clips,' so to speak. Blaster power packs are energy cells that provide the necessary 'umph' for the blaster to work (much like gunpowder propels bullets in modern arms). The blaster gas packs provide the actual ammunition for the gun and are analogous to bullets themselves (it's not my intention to suggest that blasters fire projectiles as has been proposed, merely to draw analogy for the sake of visualization). I think it's the EGTW&T that states this (not sure how highly revered as a source that is around these parts...the general opinion on EGT-anything seems pretty low), but I'm fairly certain I've read it elsewhere.

I apologize for being so vague, but my SW library is at 'home' in CT whereas I'm here at school/work in Boston. I'm gradually trying to transport stuff up here in preparation from a more permanent move to Boston this summer. Books are not as high on the list as computer stuff, however, so they're still absent and I have only my memory, the internet, and the movies to rely on presently.

Not as if this really corroborates anything, given the general sentiment towards role-playing material, but the WotC role-playing material does support the blaster gas-as-ammo and blasteer pack-as-power cell idea put forth in the EGTW&T.

I realize I'm opening a new can of worms without assuring that the first one has been dealt with, but if we put forth the idea that blaster/turbolaser/superlaser technology is all fundamentally the same, then analyzing the superlaser might help in figuring out the blaster's functional nature. I realize the invisible beam theory is rather popular and seems to be rabidly guarded, but I put forth this image and the following conjecture:

Image

This is, obviously, one of the frames from the tributary beam formation sequence in ANH. We observe that, when emitting from their nozzles/ports/insert term of choice, the tributary beams and the final superlaser beam itself is vibrantly green. The only indication of green in this frame, however, is the ethereal green column around the vibrant orange thin central column. It is my hypothesis that the orange central column is actually the functional part of the weapon, with the green field providing the color and perhaps containment/path for the beam.

Allow me to digress for a moment to address some rebuttals that I anticipate will arise. First is the fact that we see turbolasers and blasters affect objects before the visible component of the beam actually strikes the object. Consider: the superlaser tributary beams are enormous when they are finally emitted. Yet here we clearly see the orange central column does not appear to be significantly larger than a human head (granted, there may be significant issues of perspective involved here which could seriously skew this sense of scale, but the beam should scale consistently with itself, which is what's important). The large outer sheath, on the other hand, appears to be at least as large, if not larger than a full human. Given the vibrancy of the beam that we later see (a distinctively green vibrancy), I would put forth that the orange component that I suggest does the damage is not invisible so much as it is merely too small to be seen in scale with everything around it.

Consider this principle on a turbolaser scale, which is obviously much smaller than that of a superlaser. The visible beam component is actually quite narrow to begin with. If you consider, then, that the inner damaging core will scale poroportionally as well, then it may in fact become so fine as to be rendered invisible (although close enough examination would show it to be there, were one able to survive so close to such a blast) from any appreciable distance. This would allow this component to travel ahead of the visible component of the beam without actually requiring that it be invisible.

This proposition necessarily includes the idea that one is able to project columnar fields of containment from some form of source that will benefit from travelling down the length of a barrell (perhaps to accelerate the damaging component of the beam) and that these columnar fields will manifest an ethereal green glow. This glow may result in interaction with stray particulate matter from the damaging portion of the beam. The notion that the beam is composed of particulate matter is also included in this proposition, which is also in serious dispute at the moment.

I apologize if this suggestion does not take into account EU material. As I outlined above, I do not have easy access to any published material other than my WotC RPG sourcebooks at the moment, so I am unable to reconcile this with other passages. If you will look past this oversight on my part and, instead, provide for me contradictory scenarios to this theory, I will be more than happy to attempt to discuss them as best I can.

In summary: I propose a tibanna gas-based particle beam weapon that travels at approximately 40,000-80,000 km/s sheathed in a projected containment field which provides to the beam its glow, due to interaction with the particles in the particle beam, which is the damaging component and rendered invisible at appreciable distance due to its narrow dimensions. This theory is based exclusively on visual evidence, published material of apparently questionable validity, and personal conjecture. It does not include calculations of any kind and is intended only as an idea for discussion rather than an absolute conclusion.

EDIT Just thought of another idea regarding the green shaft. It could actually be some form of laser, since lasers can in fact impart momentum. Perhaps it is the laser doing the propulsing in this instance, and its interaction with the orange particle field is what creates the green glow in the column. The explanation for why the laser seems to terminate when the superlaser tributaries form could have something to do with a counter-EM field holding the particle beam in place (thus rendering the laser invisible against the backdrop of space once again when it no longer has a particle stream to reflect off of). The final superlaser is then fired (the central point in the dish serving as an emission point for the final propulsing laser), which conducts the accumulated particle 'field' towards the intended target. This removes the need to have columnar electromagnetic fields, which to my knowledge is impossible, and also retains the use of a laser as both part of the mechanism and as part of the weapon (since the laser will still contribute to the damage).
Last edited by McC on 2004-01-25 06:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Looks like a rehash of Marc's idiot theory.
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Post by McC »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Looks like a rehash of Marc's idiot theory.
Doesn't appear to be a 'Marc' in the hate mail section. Can you elaborate?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

I am disturbed by your lack of research here into this, despite the fact its clearly a commonly rehashed argument.

There's no evidence for a containment field, and canonical information like the ICS must be considered before official information.

Your theory is invalid.
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"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

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McC
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Post by McC »

Ah, thanks for the link!
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I am disturbed by your lack of research here into this, despite the fact its clearly a commonly rehashed argument.
I interpreted Mike's earlier comment about me not being added to the older archives yet to mean that I wouldn't be able to find any of these old discussions. Suppose I should've been a bit more inquisitive anyway. :oops:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:There's no evidence for a containment field, and canonical information like the ICS must be considered before official information.
See the Edit remarks.
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Your theory is invalid.
I'll assume your link contains evidence to indisuputably back this statement up. *goes off to read*
-Ryan McClure-
Scaper - Browncoat - Warsie (semi-movie purist) - Colonial - TNG/DS9-era Trekker - Hero || BOTM - Maniac || Antireligious naturalist
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