Which side are you on?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-16 02:25am

So this applies how to the sizes of the New Order and NR fleet size again how?

The NR has shown throughout EU to have substaionally less forces...so how is this somehow to bring the assumption that the Empire would not defeat the Vong given the sheer scale they worked at vs the NR?

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-16 07:35am

I have to object to the way the poll answers are phrased. They depict the Empire negatively, as if its only goal was to destroy. The Empire stood for so much more. Maybe we should start a new poll with answers like:

- The Glactic Empire (peace and stability)
- The Rebel Scum (coward terrorist strikes against the military and civilians alike in order to reestablish an obsolete regime)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-02-16 03:56pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I'm not even going there because you're assuming that the NR and New Order had similar scaled fleets.
No I'm not, I'm assuming that First Fleet would be on the same scale as Fifth Fleet, and Fifth was a bigass force.

The Fifth Fleet was pathetic; only comparable to a Imperial Sector Group at her height; the other four were larger though, some substancially so.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-16 06:34pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:I'm not even going there because you're assuming that the NR and New Order had similar scaled fleets.
No I'm not, I'm assuming that First Fleet would be on the same scale as Fifth Fleet, and Fifth was a bigass force.
The Fifth Fleet was pathetic; only comparable to a Imperial Sector Group at her height; the other four were larger though, some substancially so.

Okay, I stand corrected, but this only helps me.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-16 06:44pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
dworkin wrote:The Rebellion: Where a regular guy from the rim can aspire to fly an obselete starfighter and fight impossible odds.
And win, too.

Yeah, but you're not a Jedi.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-02-16 06:47pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote: No I'm not, I'm assuming that First Fleet would be on the same scale as Fifth Fleet, and Fifth was a bigass force.
The Fifth Fleet was pathetic; only comparable to a Imperial Sector Group at her height; the other four were larger though, some substancially so.
Okay, I stand corrected, but this only helps me.

In what way?

The whole arguement was that would the Vong come in and able to manhandle the New Order as they did the New Republic...and by sheer strength of fleet size.

Unless you want to backpedal and go "They did with less thus they were better" You had kindly explain that odd bit of logic.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-16 06:47pm

dworkin wrote:
The Rebellion: Where a regular guy from the rim can aspire to fly an obselete starfighter and fight impossible odds.

And die, as did all the regular guys from the rim, except for Wedge, and was hit anyway.
Luke only got away because he's far from regular.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-16 06:56pm

Howedar wrote:You've got a good point. I'd take the Rebellion over the Empire, although not necessarily what the Rebellion became (IE the NR).

The RA is the NR, the governors of the NR sponsored the RA to begin with, the RA was no more than their ignorant, brain washed forces who wanted something different, but had no idea what they actually wanted and didn't even care to look at their superiors agenda for personal power, and just fallow the naïve guidance of a few, too young to know anything about the real world, role models (Luke, Leia and the like). Just the usual fanatical terrorist, I have no more sympathies for them than I do for the empire.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-16 07:12pm

Shogoki wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:
dworkin wrote:The Rebellion: Where a regular guy from the rim can aspire to fly an obselete starfighter and fight impossible odds.
And win, too.
Yeah, but you're not a Jedi.

*Draws lightsaber.* Wanna bet?

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-16 07:24pm

As much as you would want to believe otherwise, it'll be easier to win the lottery a few hundred times that to be a Jedi, and then you have to be the jedi that gets recruited, and you also need the only master left to make you realize you are a jedi, it's just not going to happen, the jedi has already been chosen, perhaps you can be Biggs or Porkins.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-16 07:34pm

I know that. Read the SN.

Then if you don't get it go read the X-wing series. I got the Rogue 9 designation playing XWA online before I ever read the X-wing novels, but find it quite apt.

Biggs or Porkins? If you absolutely must have a non Force sensitive pilot, try Wedge, Hobbie, Janson, or someone else who was good enough to live.

When I'm shot down there are some loooooong odds involved. Either that, or another exceptionally great pilot, but I don't fall to your average first run turn n' burner.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-16 07:34pm

Death to the Jedi witches.

Wedge only survived by pure fucking luck.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-02-16 08:07pm

Shogoki wrote:The RA is the NR, the governors of the NR sponsored the RA to begin with, the RA was no more than their ignorant, brain washed forces who wanted something different, but had no idea what they actually wanted and didn't even care to look at their superiors agenda for personal power, and just fallow the naïve guidance of a few, too young to know anything about the real world, role models (Luke, Leia and the like). Just the usual fanatical terrorist, I have no more sympathies for them than I do for the empire.

WTF? propaganda++

1. The New Republic was not formed until after the Rebel Alliance had their victory at Endor.
2. There is no evidence of brainwashing.
3. I don't think Bel Iblis, Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, General Madine or a host of others had an "agenda for personal power."
4. I don't think Leia was "too young to know anything about the real word."
5. I don't think that most of the Rebellion's personel were "fanatical," and their tactics match an insurrection more than a terrorist campaign.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-17 12:48am

phongn wrote: 1. The New Republic was not formed until after the Rebel Alliance had their victory at Endor.

And I’m sure the RA just went: "Hey, Galactic Empire defeated here, who calls shotgun to rule the galaxy?”.
I meant the people that rule the NR are the same ones that sponsored the RA or managed it at a very high level; they didn't just get hired for the job.

phongn wrote: 2. There is no evidence of brainwashing.

Sure, guys from all over the outer rim just decided to hate the empire, even though it had little presence around there, and didn't realize or care about the mostly good quality of life of the people in the core planets, maybe not brainwashed, but there's some heavy anti-empire propaganda.

phongn wrote: 3. I don't think Bel Iblis, Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, General Madine or a host of others had an "agenda for personal power."

I don't think they put down the money required to buy all that equipment either.

phongn wrote: 4. I don't think Leia was "too young to know anything about the real word."

You have to be very naive to believe that setting up a half-assed imitation of a galaxy wide regime that has just recently fallen apart is going to work; except for the elite who rules the place, which is exactly what happened.

phongn wrote: 5. I don't think that most of the Rebellion's personel were "fanatical," and their tactics match an insurrection more than a terrorist campaign.

Well, i kindda give you this one, still, the RA's stunt caused more death and blood shed than the Empire did while it was at peace, both during the war, and after they won it, with their stupid aristocratic beaurocracy and lack of ability to make the most simple decisions.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-02-17 01:06am

Shogoki wrote:And I'm sure the RA just went: "Hey, Galactic Empire defeated here, who calls shotgun to rule the galaxy??.
I meant the people that rule the NR are the same ones that sponsored the RA or managed it at a very high level; they didn't just get hired for the job.

Read the Thrawn trilogy? Because in it, there's a clear difference between the Rebels and the New Republic. What the fuck am I talking about?

Admiral Ackbar is accused of treason. Admiral Ackbar was a hero of the Rebel Alliance. His victories over the Imperial fleet at Endor and the capture of Coruscant mean nothing to the kind of people who now run the New Republic, namely...

Borsk Fey'lya! The bothan everybody loves to hate. In the HttE trilogy the NR is clearly separated in two distinguished camps - Ackbar Diehards (or the rebels, as Wedge was a supporter of good ol' fishface), and Borsk supporters (such as Captain What's-his-face, on the Assault Frigate at the end of Darkforce Rising - he was dispatched to arrest Solo, Skywalker et al because they had the initiative to seize the Katanna fleet before the Empire could).

From there on, there's a clear breach between the Old Rebels and the New Republic. It comes up rather poignantly in the NJO, when Leia resigns from the gov't because they're nothing more than officious bureaucrats and corrupt politicians. The people that ran the NR were opportunistic pollies, who had their own affairs in mind; the people that ran the RA were disenfranchised citizens who saw and suffered, first hand in some cases (like Luke, and Ackbar) the brutality of the Empire, and sought to replace it with something better.

What about Viqi Shesh? She wasn't a rebel, but she was certainly a NR senator. There's a difference between the two (RA and NR). Personally, I like the irony. I hate the NR, but I appreciate the irony of it becoming the very thing they opposed (you can be just as brutal with neglect).

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 01:07am

The Alliance owns you. Lets just put it that way, mmkay?

Wedge only survived by pure fucking luck.

How do you figure he racked up so many kills that the silhouettes had to be denoted in squadrons by sheer luck? Those are some elite skills.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-17 01:09am

I was refering to the Battle of Yavin. I couldn't honestly give a fuck what goes on in those video game transcriptions some pass off as a coulple of book series.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 01:10am

He has half kill on the second Death Star. In movie canon. Skill.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-02-17 01:12am

And I was talking about YAVIN, dunce.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-02-17 01:14am

Rogue 9 wrote: He has half kill on the second Death Star. In movie canon. Skill.

Admittedly though, Wedge did survive the trench run by pure luck. Biggs was a good pilot, and he went up thanks to Vader. Wedge suffered a glancing blow (meaning that he survived based on luck - maybe with a combination of evasive flying or sensor jamming helping him out) and immediately pulled out to survive.

He did apologise to Luke. Pretty decent of him.

[edit] I was talking about Yavin, obviously.[/edit]

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 01:16am

Unfortunately Biggs was a good pilot with no maneuvering room. Y'know, for the life of me I'll never figure out why Wedge or Biggs wasn't taking the shot.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-02-17 01:21am

Rogue 9 wrote:Unfortunately Biggs was a good pilot with no maneuvering room. Y'know, for the life of me I'll never figure out why Wedge or Biggs wasn't taking the shot.

Probably because both were shell-shocked thanks to the attrition, and Luke wasn't pissfarting around. As soon as Red Leader went down Luke essentially and immediately said "Fuck this. Alright, let's do it. Full throttle. NOW." Wedge and Biggs didn't have time to voice any dissent, and as it turned out they were running out of time anyway. At that point, it didn't matter who pulled the trigger, just as long as it was indeed pulled and the DS went up like a firecracker.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-17 02:10am

Stofsk wrote: Read the Thrawn trilogy? Because in it, there's a clear difference between the Rebels and the New Republic. What the fuck am I talking about?

The NR is the product of the RA's efforts, or maybe is the other way around, the people who rule the NR created the RA in order to reach power; or do you think the NR fought a second war against the RA in order to place itself in the throne? They didn't force the RA into putting them in power; they are there because they are the sponsors or high level leaders of the RA. It's just that they weren't called NR before, they were what the RA called "High Command" or "Political Contacts".

Stofsk wrote: Admiral Ackbar is accused of treason. Admiral Ackbar was a hero of the Rebel Alliance. His victories over the Imperial fleet at Endor and the capture of Coruscant mean nothing to the kind of people who now run the New Republic, namely...

And now that the NR is in power what do they need an aging war hero for? They created the RA, now they are in power, that was what they wanted, it only shows how naive the soldiers of the RA were.

Stofsk wrote: Borsk Fey'lya! The bothan everybody loves to hate. In the HttE trilogy the NR is clearly separated in two distinguished camps - Ackbar Diehards (or the rebels, as Wedge was a supporter of good ol' fishface), and Borsk supporters (such as Captain What's-his-face, on the Assault Frigate at the end of Darkforce Rising - he was dispatched to arrest Solo, Skywalker et al because they had the initiative to seize the Katanna fleet before the Empire could).

It does not change the fact that the RA was naive and clueless and only exchanged one evil for another, except the later was not necessarily the lesser one. That a faction has problems with the government they themselves put in power does not change the fact that they were the ones that put them in power in the first place.

Stofsk wrote: From there on, there's a clear breach between the Old Rebels and the New Republic. It comes up rather poignantly in the NJO, when Leia resigns from the gov't because they're nothing more than officious bureaucrats and corrupt politicians. The people that ran the NR were opportunistic pollies, who had their own affairs in mind; the people that ran the RA were disenfranchised citizens who saw and suffered, first hand in some cases (like Luke, and Ackbar) the brutality of the Empire, and sought to replace it with something better.

And failed to do so, because they may have had a vague idea of what they were fighting for, but didn't know who they were fighting for. And the RA does not even exist as an established political faction anymore; they are just a bunch of old soldiers that are starting to have doubts about putting the NR in power, because now the NR doesn't need them anymore and wont listen to them.

Stofsk wrote: What about Viqi Shesh? She wasn't a rebel, but she was certainly a NR senator. There's a difference between the two (RA and NR). Personally, I like the irony. I hate the NR, but I appreciate the irony of it becoming the very thing they opposed (you can be just as brutal with neglect).

One has to wonder what connections she had among the RA's high command. They didn't put empire sympathizers in the senate, at least not knowingly, did they?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-02-17 02:23am

It does not change the fact that the RA was naive and clueless and only exchanged one evil for another, except the later was not necessarily the lesser one.

Emphasis mine. Are you insane?!? The New Republic didn't build Death Stars or slaughter its own citizens wholesale. When they start, let me know. Sheesh.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2004-02-17 02:38am

No, they just let local wars between planets run rampant, wondering if it would be profitable to stop them, and then they wondered if they should stop the Vong, much the same way someone doesn't wonder if he should use the gun in one's hand on the lion currently mauling one's throat because the bullets were expensive. Of course, as long as the citizens were the ones being slaughtered and not them, it was not so bad.

And the Death Star was only to be used against rebel planets, so it would not have been used had it not been for the Rebels, in the first place, since they where the only faction actually troubling the empire on such a scale.
I'm not saying i sympathize with the Empire, but the RA are not saints, either, if the rebels had been destroyed there would probably have been peace until they Vong came around, and they would have been promptly vaped.