The New SW Canon

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yes. GCSN just establishes things like where it came from; i.e., G is canon originating from George Lucas personally. C is anything else considered canonical. S is iffy things which are often ignored and frequently contradicted. N is anything labeled outright apocryphal.

The films are the ultimate, supreme canon. Nothing may contradict them. Next comes the secondary canon sources, which address the movies. Comic depictions, novelisations, radio dramas, DK nonfiction all fall in this camp. Then comes the tertiary canon of EU sources not solely refering to the films. The closer to the films something is, the higher the canonical authority.

[Lord Poe]

I've seen something that is just hilarious. The RSA circlejerk forum is declaring an "easy victory" over their "EU is inadmissible" war, due to a recent "Starlog" quote by Lucas! Does he say, "The EU is not, and never will be a legitimate continuation of Star Wars!" ? Nope. Does he say, "Only the films offer a glimpse into the world of Star Wars! The EU is nothing more than a complete seperate alternate what-if reality that has no correlation to the TRUE Star Wars universe at all!"? Nope. Here's what he says in Starlog:

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world...We decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one."

Quick! Burn your EU books! Lucas said they mean nothing! Nope, he didn't. He's saying the exact same thing he's always said: the filmed portion of the Star Wars story is his alone to do with as he wishes, and no one else is allowed to mess with it. What the RSA circlejerk is developing carpal tunnel syndrome over is his mention of Star Trek's "different universes"! Now I ask you, if Lucas claims to know absolutely nothing about his own company's continuity (as an idiotic interpretation of everything Lucas has said alleges), how would ANYONE be delusional enough to think he knows anything at all about the continuity policy of Star Trek???

One of Darkstar's sock puppets recently crowed about this quote on ASVS, and was smacked down by Lord Edam himself!
(RSA sockpuppet quotes bolded):

Lord Edam de Fromage
Newsgroups: alt.startrek.vs.starwars
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:41:07 +0100
Subject: Re: New disproof of "EU = canonical" theory

On 30 Aug 2005 01:02:20 -0700 in alt.startrek.vs.starwars, said...

> Hi. I found a new bit of disproof of your "EU is CANON" theory:

you're quoting darkstar again, I see.

> (referring to the EU)
> "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't
> know anything about that world. That's a different world than my
> world... We decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes:
> My universe and then this other one. " (Starlog, August 2005)
> How can you explain this?

there are two universes. One, Lucas', has no restrictions other than
what has gone before in Lucas' universe.

The other, EU, has restrictions on what has gone before in EU, *AND*
what has gone before in Lucas'.

Two parallel universes, with one (EU) being dependent on the other
(Lucas) where they intersect.

> You've tried numerous attempst to distort the
> original Cinescape quotes by redefining "parallel" as "interdependent"
> or whatever,

No, they are not *inter*dependent (it would interest me to see where on
ASVS you are taking that from - link?) If that were the case canon would
be ammended to accomodate EU, but that is explicitly not the case.

> but now here comes somethign that flies in the face of
> your whole theory. The statement that "we" decided "we" would have two
> universes seems to suggest that George Lucas has dictated this "Movies
> = Canon" and "EU = Crap" policy to the LucasFilm itself.

Yes, Lucas would be the one that declared his ideas prime. Lucas decided
that his stories would not be governed by the EU in any way whatsoever.
However, the EU still has to fit with his ideas. There is nothing new in

this argument.

> Another quote, this time from January, and Leland Chee (no that's not a
> mistake!) no less, on a SW.com forum posting:

> ""Parallel universe" suggests that each universe can go in separate
> directions which really isn't the case with regard to the EU. The EU is
> bound by what is seen in the most current version of the films and by
> directives from George Lucas."

> See -- the EU is dependent on the canon, but not the other way around.

Which is the way it has always been. What makes you think "we" have ever
believed canon is dependent on EU?

> Your theory:
> EU, whenever not contradicted directly and inarguably by the films, is
> as authoritatve and definitive as those films themselves and forms an
> accurate part of the "overall Star Wars Universe/Contuinuity/etc.".
> This policy applies EVERYWHERE to the ENTIRE "Lucas Corporate Empire".

Let's just reiterate our hierarchy of canon here.

1.1. - films
1.2. - novellisations of films
1.3. - scripts
1.4. - radio plays

2. - other lucas licensed sources.

this applies to all Star Wars, everywhere, everywhen, with a few
specific exceptions - "infinities" and the "Star wars Tales" comics have
been declared completely irrelevant, as have game mechanics.

> My theory:
> EU has absolutely no authority except when the films directly
> incorporate a part of it (then that part ALONE becomes canon). The "EU
> = CANON" policy is a LucasBooks/Lucas Licensing in-house deal alone,
> and need not apply to the whole of LucasFilm Ltd.

the requirement to fit with EU doesn't apply to the whole of Lucasfilm
Ltd. No one has ever claimed it did. The entire hierarchy SPECIFICALLY
PRECLUDES that. Anyone with authorisation to create canon can ignore EU
if they wish. That's why canon is above EU in the hierarchy.

> Evidence for your theory:
> Various LucasBooks/Lucas Licensing quotes (including one that says
> EXPLICITY that this is an "in-house" deal, hehehehe)

> Evidence for my theory:
> Direct comments from George Lucas, backup from various sources
> including Leland Chee and Steve Sansweet

your claims would be much better if you provided a table of the
competing evidence, since most of the quotes that support "us" are from
the same people as the ones that support darkst...sorry, "you".

> Problems with your theory:
> 1. Your theory relies upon to misrepresentation or elimination of
> evidence -- you must redefine "parallel universes"
> to "interdependent, connected universes" instead of "seperate
> universes", for example.

No, we simply take the accepted hierarchy and a correct understanding of
"parallel" - they are parallel universes that intersect during the
specific occurences of high-canon, dependent on high-canon at the point
of intersection.

> 2. Your theory does not predict that quotes like the above would
> appear.

"our" theory implicitly includes quotes like the one Darkstar gave you
from Lucas (two worlds, one governed by the other), and merely expands
on your Chee quote.

> In fact, it predicts that George Lucas should be
> saying "I've read most of the novels and have a great
> familiarity with this stuff, and respect the great
> contributions it makes to the overall history of the Star Wars
> Universe" or something like that, but he in fact says the
> opposite. It also predicts that he would try to maintain
> absolute continuity with the EU as best as he can, instead of
> outright disregarding of it (see for example the Boba Fett
> thing -- he made up his mind that Fett is DEAD and he's
> not swayed by the EU!)

"our" theory makes no such predictions. If "we" predicted that Lucas
would try to fit canon with EU then EU would not be placed below canon
in the hierarchy. If Lucas drew from EU as much as EU draws from him
then they would be equal. They never have been.

> Meanwhile, my theory does not have any of these problems. It is totally
> and entirely consistent with the full body of evidence.

bullshit.

your full body of evidence includes comparisons of the "two worlds" as
"parallel universes" intersecting during canon governed by canon. This
is something you have made no allowances for, prefering instead to
attack the strawman "eu and canon are equal".

EU is the tapeworm of Canon

Oh! Can I introduce yet ANOTHER Lucas quote into the fray? This is from the annual "newsletter" SW Fan Club members get directly from George Lucas. This was the newsletter sent out as he was filming ROTS:

While Episode III will be my last Star Wars movie, I can assure you that Star Wars will continue as a strong, creative force well into the future.

Here's a scan of the newsletter for those wishing to see it.

Damn, I just hate to break up a celebration...

(BTW, remember where you've seen the newsletter first. Rabid Stupid Assholes like to leech things off my website without permission.

[VT-16]

Add to that the quote that there will most likely be characters in the live-action tv series that have been developed in comics and books. A series developed and precided over by GL himself.

[nightmare]

The books for the new movies were in many ways easier than the Classics because we were the first to do them. Our work is considered definitive and used for reference by Lucasfilm and ILM!!! We didn't have to reconcile our work with twenty years worth of previously published material which often conflicted with each other.

Well, I guess that answers my previous question, which was kind of rethorical anyway.

[K. A. Pital]

TV series - is it G-canon after all? I guess so:

Series producer Rick McCullum confirmed the TV version would go ahead.

Speaking at the Empire Film Awards in London he said: "We're very excited - we just got confirmation George Lucas has committed himself to writing the Star Wars TV series. I guess this is the news all fans have been waiting to hear."

Linko

[Kurgan]

Uh oh, I just read this:

Date Posted: Dec 07, 2005 02:11 PM

Or do they (LucasFilm Ltd Proper & George Lucas) use a different policy, if they have one at all??

Anybody can have their own perception of what is and isn't canon. The Holocron comes into play for anything official being developed for books, games, websites, and merchandise. For anything beyond that, it is simply a reference tool.

How do you decide which to call "canon"? I've also heard that there's some sort of "official" category in addition to "canon". Does that exist?

To me, everything new is canon. If it's produced by one of the Lucas companies, it's official.
...

Does LucasFilm Ltd. itself actually have a Canon Policy?

No. I'm not exactly sure what the existence of such a thing would actually mean. Beyond the merchandise and online, I don't see how or where it would be applied. It's not like there's a document that exists that says "these are the things that are canon" that everyone in the company can look at.

If Greedo can shoot first and an old Anakin ghost can be replaced with a young Anakin ghost, then there's always room for things to change.

How could I miss this? That's it! Debate over! Only what I like is canon!

Couldn't resist...

[Alien-Carrot]

just one question kurgan.

Who was talking to who in that post?

[Surlethe]

just one question kurgan.

Who was talking to who in that post?

Tasty-Taste is, IIRC, the screen name of Leland Chee, a consistency-checker for Lucasfilm who posts in the SW.com holocron thread and answers obscure questions.

[Kurgan]

That's right. The bold portions are random people on the official forum asking Chee questions, the regular text is his response.

[Alien-Carrot]

Thank you both for the clarification.

[VT-16]

New canon info from the man himself, at ShoWest 2008:

Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?

But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it.

Emphasis mine. 8)

Link

[VT-16]

More Lucas quotes for the grinder. I like the allusions to Christianity in this. :P

[Pint0 Xtreme]

More Lucas quotes for the grinder. I like the allusions to Christianity in this.

Ah...

The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story, Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married...

Excellent...

[Mange]

That was excellent. While GL maintains that the EU is not what he would've done, he nevertheless recognizes it.

[Havok]

So this basically just enforces the way it has been. You can have a movies/TV only debate and disregard the EU completely, or you can have an EU debate which includes the movies/TV.

[Mange]

In an article in the LA Times which mostly has been given attention to the fact that Samuel L. Jackson will be voicing Mace Windu in the upcoming Clone Wars animated movie, there's also a few interesting things concerning the EU:

"Whatever it is that happens afterward [ROTJ]," the 63-year-old filmmaker said, "that isn't the core 'Star Wars' story that I like to tell."

he stories that do interest Lucas are the ones that take place before Anakin Skywalker dons the ebony mask of Darth Vader, which is why he and his 5-year-old Lucasfilm Animation venture will add a seventh feature film to the "Star Wars" canon on Aug. 15 with "The Clone Wars."
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/ne ... 9545.story
The movie has been produced with state-of-the-art computer-generated animation and voice actors, including Samuel L. Jackson, reprising his Mace Windu character, and Anthony Daniels as the familiar voice of C-3P0.

The fact that Daniels is back raises the idea that this new approach could provide a digital fountain-of-youth for other original trilogy actors, such as Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher, who haven't been in the universe of the Jedi since they frolicked with the furry Ewoks on the forested moon of Endor at the end of "Return of the Jedi" in 1983.

If there's any force behind that concept, Lucas isn't feeling it.

"There really isn't any story to tell there," the filmmaker said. "It's been covered in the books and video games and comic books, which are things I think are incredibly creative but that I don't really have anything to do with other than being the person who built the sandbox they're playing in."

In the non-film versions of the saga, for instance, Han Solo and Princess Leia marry and have three children, one of them named Anakin after his notorious grandfather. All of it has been popular with core fans, but Lucas doesn't see any upside to extending the tale past the leafy luau on Endor where Vader's corpse was torched.

"I get asked all the time, 'What happens after "Return of the Jedi"?,' and there really is no answer for that," he said. "The movies were the story of Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker, and when Luke saves the galaxy and redeems his father, that's where that story ends."

LA Times

[Kurgan]

Sorry if this is old news to folks here, but this was news to me:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=1348

Leland Y Chee

Date Posted: May 12, 2007 04:53 PM

regarding the 3d clone wars cartoon and the live action star wars tv series, are they g-canon or c-canon?
So far I'm using the term T-canon for the upcoming animated series and live-action series. Nothing prior is being considered T-canon.
===

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... tart=01755

Halfway down the page:


Leland Y Chee
Total Posts: 1377
Member Since: 05/00

Date Posted: Feb 20, 2008 04:19 PM

so i'm assuming the film only continuity only consists of tpm through rotj, and not the clone wars movie and other possible future sw films?
Correct. I'll be treating the material from The Clone Wars theatrical release as "Television Canon".
===

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... tart=01779

Leland Y Chee

Date Posted: Mar 11, 2008 02:00 AM

Undoubtedly T-level canon would be above C-level, primarily because of George Lucas's increased involvement. The secondary reason is that the the potential audience for the theatrical release and television run is likely to be many times greater than the rest of the EU combined.
===

[Illuminatus Primus]

Important clues: fan/public familiarity and Lucas involvement are both metrics by which the canon increases in value.

[The Dark]

Sorry if this is old news to folks here, but this was news to me:

*snip Chee*

So, we're now essentially looking at:

1. G-canon (Lucas' own inputs, including but not limited to films)
2. T-canon (television shows [hopefully not including the Holiday Special])
3. C-canon (non-Lucas canon, including but not limited to books, comics, and fluff from games [though not mechanics])
4. S-canon (secondary canon, with the story being non-canon but elements being canon, such as Galaxies)
5. N-canon (non-canonical - Infinities stories, game stats, et cetera)

Based on previous quotes, G and C canon are often indistinguishable to people without access to the Holocron, suggesting that to a non-Lucas employee, G and C canon could be considered essentially identical; as T canon falls between the two, it also could not be excluded without contradicting the official canon (although not the "film only" continuity Chee has mentioned before).

[Kurgan]

When I first saw that, I wondered the same thing (SWHS), but it sounds like he's ONLY considering the following "T-Canon":

- The Clone Wars (theatrical movie)
- The Clone Wars (cgi series on TV)
- The upcoming live action tv series

So the Droids, Ewoks, SWHS (the parts that get incorporated into other sources I guess), Ewok Adventure movies, and the previous Clone Wars animated series would all be still part of C-canon.

Now the real question is... where does Lego Star Wars fit in all this? And the Star Wars Transformers? Potato-Head Vader? Everything must be categorized and cataloged! We want all the crap indexed and labeled so we can update our wookieepedias or we won't be able to sleep at night!


Funny though how stuff will become special in the "canon" if it's popular, I agree. That's never stopped Lucas before though... (SWHS none withstanding, though thanks in part to fan interest and bootlegging, we still get parts of it that won't go away)

[Coyote]

This is great news. Because not only does it undermine the accursed "Yuuzhan Vong" chunder, but T-canon can introduce elements that may not be reflected upon in the established EU since the established EU doesn't necessarily matter.

So, for example, the existance of Ahsoka Tano is no longer problematic. Her name or existence naver came up in the post CW movies because there was no need; she wasn't a subject of discussion. Just because the entire volume of the EU never addressed her in Anakin/Vader's past means squat-- the EU is nothing but a resource pool for Lucas to draw from what he needs, and nothing more.

Don't get too attached to some of the crap in the EU, then... heheh. Thankfully. A lot of it is crap anyway. Vonda McIntyre should not even be allowed to write the words "Star Wars".

[Kurgan]

Sorry, I didn't get the impression that suddenly "C-Canon" disappears in favor of "T-Canon."

It's a seperate canon category, but does this mean that the three don't mix? I think you're interpreting it as a hierarchy (G, T, C)?

[Havok]

The way it seems to me is...

Movies, New T.V. = GLU i.e G and T level canon.

Movies, New T.V., Old T.V., Novels, Comics, Games, Tech Books = EU i.e. G, T, C, and S level canon.

So the EU is inclusive to all, but still has the G Level on down canon breakdown. Where the GLU is anything he is personally working on and doesn't include the other canon levels as basically, they don't really exist to GL other than as a "naming" source or an extensive art department.

[Kurgan]

It seems to be another unnecessary, meaningless term...

How is "T canon" really different from any of the other "levels" of canon?

So now SOME of the stuff on TV is part of "T-canon." Does that mean it's "higher" and "more real" than the rest of the EU (including the other stuff on TV prior to 2008)?

Is the "T-canon" it's "own parallel universe" in which parts of the rest of the EU didn't happen?

They might as well go the rest of the way and give us "V-canon" (video game canon), change "C-canon" to "comic canon" and "N-canon" to "novel canon" and so forth. Perhaps we'll also get P-canon ("Park canon" for Star Tours) and K-canon ("kiddie canon") for Potato Head Vader and Star Wars Transformers...


This strikes me as some kind of weird fan appeasement... everything is canon, even if none of it is really consistent with the rest (nevermind loads of retcons). Do most fans really care anymore which parts of the "universe" are "canon"?

Oh well, whatever...

[VT-16]

Well, it's stuff he works on that gets seen by a lot of people. That's part of the criteria. Most people see the films, less people see the series, even less people read the comics, books, play the games etc.