Karen Traviss' Bloodlines

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-09-09 07:13pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:I suppose it isn't entirely unprecedented either. In the Exar Kun saga 4,000+ years ago, Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma are fighting, when, from the past, a long-dead Sith Lord communicates to them and legitimizes their Sith-ness. Of course, that was future time travel, of a sort.

I thought that that was Ragnos's ghost.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-09 08:11pm

You know, after reading the horror that was the Dark Nest series, I didn't think the SW EU could sink much lower.

But from what I'm reading here, it's seriously sinking under (late) ST levels...

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-09-10 01:19am

Well, to be a bit fair:

"Through the Force, things you will see. The future, the past...old friends long gone."

Yoda, TESB

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-09-10 07:02am

Guardsman Bass wrote:I suppose it isn't entirely unprecedented either. In the Exar Kun saga 4,000+ years ago, Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma are fighting, when, from the past, a long-dead Sith Lord communicates to them and legitimizes their Sith-ness. Of course, that was future time travel, of a sort.

This is an example of time travel only in an extremely literal sense, in that the ghost passed forward through time at the same rate as everyone else. The Jen'ari who appeared to Kun and Qel-Droma had been dead for a thousand years or more, and his ghost had merely loitered about the corporeal plane for that time. It was not a spectral projection 'anchored' in the past, anymore than Exar Kun's own ghost was when it appeared in the Jedi Academy trilogy.

While it is clear that Jacen is experiencing some sort of 'vision,' the actual nature of the phenomenon remains unknown. It may be nothing more than a powerful hallucination, in which he believes to be causing or experiencing things that in reality have no causal connection to him.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-09-10 04:14pm

It could be a kind of 'retro-precog' wherein he sees things that have already happened. Like psychoysmetry (i believe thats the word) where you touch and object and get the memories of those who touched it before you. If Force Users can see the future and remote view, then a wide range of possible astral projection abilities should be open to them. Just as, if they can lift X-Wings and such, they should be able to look at a person and smash their head like a grape under an Elephant's foot.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2006-09-11 01:01am

Publius wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:I suppose it isn't entirely unprecedented either. In the Exar Kun saga 4,000+ years ago, Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma are fighting, when, from the past, a long-dead Sith Lord communicates to them and legitimizes their Sith-ness. Of course, that was future time travel, of a sort.
This is an example of time travel only in an extremely literal sense, in that the ghost passed forward through time at the same rate as everyone else. The Jen'ari who appeared to Kun and Qel-Droma had been dead for a thousand years or more, and his ghost had merely loitered about the corporeal plane for that time. It was not a spectral projection 'anchored' in the past, anymore than Exar Kun's own ghost was when it appeared in the Jedi Academy trilogy.

While it is clear that Jacen is experiencing some sort of 'vision,' the actual nature of the phenomenon remains unknown. It may be nothing more than a powerful hallucination, in which he believes to be causing or experiencing things that in reality have no causal connection to him.

But doesn't Leia "see" or sense his ghostly form at the crash site... that would be backwards from this though wouldn't it?

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-09-11 01:15am

Luke Skywalker also 'saw' himself as Darth Vader in the cave on Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back, and experienced a vision in which Mara Jade foiled his escape plan at the Great Pit of Carkoon in Dark Force Rising. The fact that one 'sees' -- more accurately, believes oneself to 'see' -- a vision in the Force, even one that manages to convey accurate details, does not necessarily mean that the person one 'sees' is sending a message. Considering that Jacen Solo 'sends' the message a month or so after the message was already received heavily undermines the idea that he sent it. He may have simply hallucinated the sending of the message.

Remember, Luke Skywalker 'saw' a vision of his friends in pain on Cloud City before it actually happened. The Princess Leia's prescience is perfectly capable of having accurately revealed to her details of her son's plight before it happened, without any sort of nonsensical time-traveling on his part. There is no concrete causal relationship between what she 'received' and what he 'sent', especially considering that the two are separated by the iron curtain of time, which, pity to say, is permeable in only one direction.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-09-12 09:03am

Publius wrote:Luke Skywalker also 'saw' himself as Darth Vader in the cave on Dagobah in The Empire Strikes Back, and experienced a vision in which Mara Jade foiled his escape plan at the Great Pit of Carkoon in Dark Force Rising. The fact that one 'sees' -- more accurately, believes oneself to 'see' -- a vision in the Force, even one that manages to convey accurate details, does not necessarily mean that the person one 'sees' is sending a message. Considering that Jacen Solo 'sends' the message a month or so after the message was already received heavily undermines the idea that he sent it. He may have simply hallucinated the sending of the message.

Remember, Luke Skywalker 'saw' a vision of his friends in pain on Cloud City before it actually happened. The Princess Leia's prescience is perfectly capable of having accurately revealed to her details of her son's plight before it happened, without any sort of nonsensical time-traveling on his part. There is no concrete causal relationship between what she 'received' and what he 'sent', especially considering that the two are separated by the iron curtain of time, which, pity to say, is permeable in only one direction.

All this is an interesting rational...but IIRC Jacen actauly explicitly says that he somehow 'fixed' the future using some kind of Ang-Tigh (sp) Force skill. I think Luke was so distrurbed by it he forbade him from doing it anymore.

Of course I could be remembering this wrong, the Dark Nest books are something I REALLY am trying to erase from my mind.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2006-09-12 03:17pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:Of course I could be remembering this wrong, the Dark Nest books are something I REALLY am trying to erase from my mind.

It'd be easier to do so if you were Jacen...

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-09-12 06:35pm

Chris OFarrell wrote:All this is an interesting rational...but IIRC Jacen actauly explicitly says that he somehow 'fixed' the future using some kind of Ang-Tigh (sp) Force skill. I think Luke was so distrurbed by it he forbade him from doing it anymore.

Luke Skywalker perceived himself to have decapitated Darth Vader, only to discover his own face beneath Vader's mask. That does not mean it actually happened, no matter how 'real' it might have seemed to him, and no matter how adamant he insisted upon it. Seeing that the shallow philosopher seen in the NJO, Dark Nest, and LotF series is a murderous delusional, his claims regarding psychotropic experiences are dubious to say the least.

Gilad Pellaeon explicitly said in Darksaber that the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire, but that doesn't make it true.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-09-19 12:26am

I'd like to take a moment to thank the people that contributed to this thread. My brother, having been unawares of most of the Travissty situation went out and bloodlines. After showing him this thread i'm happy to report that he was so disgusted he immediately returned to Borders and returned the book.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2006-09-19 01:15am

I'm tempted to do so as well. You know, the Dark Nest trilogy got the ball rolling in my head and while Betrayal was good, Bloodlines got me thinking once again. It's been suggested since 2003 and I'm feeling in agreement once again: The Unifying Force should have been the end of the post-ROTJ EU. It wasn't perfect, but it was still an effective close to not only the NJO, but also to the OT-era characters. That could have been the curtain call.

Instead, we're now getting the main bulk of the film saga recycled, a Mandalorian fanwanker whose reactions to criticism remind me of Marguerite Perrin, and LFL pulling a Cassandra Cain with Jacen Solo (who, granted, has never been one of my favorite EU characters ,but still). Thank God for Luceno's Plageuis novel in a year...

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-09-19 02:10am

JME2 wrote:Thank God for Luceno's Plageuis novel in a year...

Hear Hear. It's a shame that we have to wait so long for a book like that to come out, yet a new turd like "bloodlines" comes out every few months anymore. I'm coming to realize that whatever LFL is doing with the pre-RoTJ EU, they should apply more of that philosophy to the post RoTJ EU.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 02:15am

Darth Fanboy wrote:Hear Hear. It's a shame that we have to wait so long for a book like that to come out, yet a new turd like "bloodlines" comes out every few months anymore. I'm coming to realize that whatever LFL is doing with the pre-RoTJ EU, they should apply more of that philosophy to the post RoTJ EU.

Hey, quality work takes time. This just once again proves that KT doesn't put any real work into her crap.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-09-19 10:18am

Well, I finally got a copy of it from the library. The first bit so far hasn't really caught my interest yet.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-09-19 12:51pm

Even the shithole that is TFN has people complaining about that book, especially the characterizations. Guess you just can't get those right from crib notes...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-09-19 01:07pm

Lord Poe wrote:Even the shithole that is TFN has people complaining about that book, especially the characterizations. Guess you just can't get those right from crib notes...

Even TFN has its limits for shitty writing? Amazing.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2006-09-19 01:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:Even the shithole that is TFN has people complaining about that book, especially the characterizations. Guess you just can't get those right from crib notes...
Even TFN has its limits for shitty writing? Amazing.

Hmm. Hell must have finally frozen over...

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-09-19 01:13pm

Lord Poe wrote:Even the shithole that is TFN has people complaining about that book, especially the characterizations. Guess you just can't get those right from crib notes...

Yes, a few, but on the whole most reviews are very positive. I find that quite remarkable considering the author's feelings on continuity and the author herself.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-09-19 04:04pm

A friend of mine got it and I borrowed it off him. In short it was crap ranking right up there with Crystal Star. Every one from Luke down seem to have had new personalities installed, in perticular Han Solo. He doesn't want to kill Sal-Solo in cold blood despite huge provocation, how the fuck did this guy live as a smuggler and occasional pirate, the nutering of Solo has beeing going on since the SE's but this is getting way beyond a joke? Leia becomes a non-person and Mara Jade encourages Ben to become a Sith apprentice. What capped it for me was Fett. A 70 odd year old man being the deadliest, richest man in the galaxy? Give me a fucking break. My guess is that she sat back one day and asked her self who does rabid fan boys wank off most to, remembered that trawn was dead and has already been rezed once (sort of) and decided to champion Fett to get said fan boys on her side.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-09-19 04:36pm

Mara wants her son to do WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-09-19 04:45pm

So substituting the Holocron for actual reading, and openly interpreting the characters in your own way will lead to contradictory characterizations? I'm shocked.

Lord Pounder wrote:What capped it for me was Fett. A 70 odd year old man being the deadliest, richest man in the galaxy? Give me a fucking break. My guess is that she sat back one day and asked her self who does rabid fan boys wank off most to, remembered that trawn was dead and has already been rezed once (sort of) and decided to champion Fett to get said fan boys on her side.

Nah, Traviss has just been Mandalorian wanker from the start. Ever since she started Klingonizing the GAR, and making it so that typical clones could take out 200 droids each. Do you expect any less from even a geriatric Boba Fett?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Mara wants her son to do WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't you know? The Jedi have a history of siding with the Sith. They helped Palpatine commit his huge fraud, after all.

Seriously though, I would like to hear how this was supposed to make sense in the book.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-09-19 04:56pm

They helped Palpatine commit his huge fraud, after all.

That notion of hers still makes me lol. I guess we can now safely conclude Traviss was a one-hit wonder who should never have written more books.

In short it was crap ranking right up there with Crystal Star

But, Lord Pounder, don't you know criticising female authors is "misogynistic"? For shame. You will enjoy Crystal Star, damn you! :P

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-09-19 05:05pm

We REALLY need to get that petition for KT's dismissal from LF going.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-09-19 05:10pm

Ugh, not that shit again. Just let her own writing and methodology (or lack of) be her undoing in SW publishing.