Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[Vympel]

Doesn't work based on what we see in the movie. There is no reason for the ships to wait until they actually run out of fuel. If this was possible it should have been realized instantly by both sides (again, just like 99% of the audience). So unless the max acceleration of all the ships present just happens to be exactly the same (I hope you realize how stupid this would be), a rebel cruiser who is already outside of the destructive range of the FO guns with hours worth of fuel at whatever acceleration should have been able to burn ahead to execute the jump well outside the FOs ability to interfere.

If the max acceleration of all the ships was wildly different then the Rebel fleet would've increased the distance, yet they did not, so its obviously not possible. Further, the ships running out of fuel has nothing to do with anything. Also, your assumption that the jump could be executed at any range is based on what data?

This reminds me of what Pablo Hidalgo said when being questioned about the ram on twitter re: "oh why didn't Holdo just get someone else to do it or use a droid or whatever".

"Why assume it's easy?"

(oh and also, it was never Holdo's original intention to being with, but anyway)

That's pretty much the beginning and the end of it as far as I'm concerned. I don't see the need to deliberately find fault with a really straightforward scene. Probably because I enjoyed the film.

Don't write yourself into corners where such things make sense then.

Any movie you care to name has some sort of 'more logical' solution to a problem baked in that would nullify an entire scene - or even the entire film. That's not the point of writing or watching a movie. It's just a sad exercise in joyless nitpicking and missing the entire point of why we watch films in the first place.

It’s an age old quandary where someone asks “why didn’t they just do __ to solve the problem?” and the answer is because then the movie would be over. Every single conflict scenario you have ever seen on screen has probably had a more logical solution than the one that plays out It in the narrative, but that truly doesn’t matter.

That sentiment should be blindingly obvious to all of us, and yet we still love to ask those logical questions. Especially with horror movies (this is largely because we place ourselves in the stalkee’s shoes a great deal in those kinds of movies and actively look for solutions on our own). But the real answer to “why didn’t they just do ____” in a horror movie is always because if they don’t, it’s the way to make the most effective, dramatic scare, which, lest we forget, is utterly the point of why we are in the theatre. Of course, there are a million other things that have to do with making an effective scare or an emotionally effective scene, but Hulk assures you they often don’t have all that much to do with plot logic either.

So in Hulk’s mind, these sorts of overt logic questions that are “movie-stoppers” are really not even worth getting into that much. They fundamentally misunderstand what the goal of a dramatic experience is all about.

So sure, Rian Johnson could've written the movie so that the Resistance are hyper-competent cold-hard badasses who will of course immediately leap to the idea that suiciding their ships into the enemy fleet will totally work because of [insert unstated assumptions that are nowhere in the film as shot here]. It also would've ruined the film. What a tough call.

[Gandalf]

A person occupying a high position within a military junta not necessarily understanding the full scope of what's going on beneath them? How alien! Are there any examples from real life where political and military overconfidence led a powerful country to get completely fucked over by people it underestimated?

Come on man, we're given a scene and diagram explaining that they Resistance have pulled ahead and are maintaining that distance. Where Hux is explicitly told 'We can't catch them.'

Wasn't that line immediately followed by "They can't keep burning fuel like this, so it's just a matter of time" and one stating that they would keep up the barrage just to remind the Resistance fleet of the FO's presence?

It appeared to be a solved problem, with the added bonus of watching the Resistance fleet face their own mortality for a while. Plant some cameras on the front of a ship, and it'll make great viewing on First Order X News.

There has to be some person, somewhere, out of the literally MILLIONS of crew, that realises over the eighteen god damn hours that the ships aren't using their full capacity. I cannot believe that no helmsman pointed out they weren't at max burn.

Why not? Armies (be they space or land) sometimes go along with dumb things, or at least don't speak up a lot.

[Kojiro]

Wasn't that line immediately followed by "They can't keep burning fuel like this, so it's just a matter of time" and one stating that they would keep up the barrage just to remind the Resistance fleet of the FO's presence?

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact Hux wants them dead *now* and a subordinate is explaining why that can't happen. Except of course it can happen and should happen according to the canon. Hell, it should happen according to basic tactical logic.

It appeared to be a solved problem, with the added bonus of watching the Resistance fleet face their own mortality for a while. Plant some cameras on the front of a ship, and it'll make great viewing on First Order X News.

Except, you know, it isn't. Every minute you give them is a minute they have to pull some shenanigans. Rig up cloaks. Or get to a secret base. Or call in support. If nothing more Hux and Snoke want them dead- that should be sufficient for people to do something as trivial as increase thrust. I'd honestly be surprised if no one accelerated on the assumption that's what the brass wanted.

Why not? Armies (be they space or land) sometimes go along with dumb things, or at least don't speak up a lot.

Because a failure to accelerate during a chase is beyond dumb. It's not like Snoke ordered them 'slow chased' and everyone is too scared to speak up.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, we have to assume that the First Order fleet was at max acceleration until proven otherwise, I think.

[Kojiro]

Yeah, we have to assume that the First Order fleet was at max acceleration until proven otherwise, I think.

Proven by what? The canon source that says Resurgents can outpace a TIE/fo? The same TIE we see running up and down the length of the Raddus, easily faster than it?

At what point will you simply admit RJ fucked up?

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, we have to assume that the First Order fleet was at max acceleration until proven otherwise, I think.

Proven by what? The canon source that says Resurgents can outpace a TIE/fo? The same TIE we see running up and down the length of the Raddus, easily faster than it?

By the fact that the alternative is that the First Order's crews aren't fit to man a row boat. So unless it is unambiguously stated that the First Order was not at max acceleration, I think it makes more sense to assume that they were.

At what point will you simply admit RJ fucked up?

I'm not saying anything about that one way or the other. It may be that a mistake was made here. Though I doubt that it would receive this level of attention, any more than other technical absurdities in Star Wars do, if people weren't going over the film in excruciating detail looking for mistakes to validate their hostility.

[Kojiro]

By the fact that the alternative is that the First Order's crews aren't fit to man a row boat. So unless it is unambiguously stated that the First Order was not at max acceleration, I think it makes more sense to assume that they were.

You honestly believe the more rational answer is canon material is wrong and the Resurgents and Supremacy are equally fast, but not as fast as smaller corvettes or the larger Raddus?

I'm not saying anything about that one way or the other. It may be that a mistake was made here. Though I doubt that it would receive this level of attention, any more than other technical absurdities in Star Wars do, if people weren't going over the film in excruciating detail looking for mistakes to validate their hostility.

Better to be a passive aggressive wanker huh? Let me guess, I hate women and minorities so much I'll even criticise shitty, inconsistent, canon breaking tech specs because they're in the movie? Oh of course you're not saying that, I'm just displaying traits of the kind of people who would do that or be part of the Alt Reich.

[Vympel]

Yeah, we have to assume that the First Order fleet was at max acceleration until proven otherwise, I think.

Proven by what? The canon source that says Resurgents can outpace a TIE/fo? The same TIE we see running up and down the length of the Raddus, easily faster than it?

At what point will you simply admit RJ fucked up?

Wait a second - why is Rian Johnson obligated to be aware of and follow the assertions of some random expanded material book which he obviously hasn't read? Since when does the tail wag the dog like that? Star Wars has literally never done this. If TLJ strongly implies one thing and a book says another, well I'm going to say if i have to choose, the book is the one that is wrong. It's simply unreasonable to expect a screenwriter to have encyclopaedic knowledge of every bit of minor Star Wars canon - which was obviously being written while he was writing his script, by the way.

This is not his fault at all - its the Story Group's fault. And its simply not the movie's problem.

(Before the Awakening - where this comes from - came out on 18 December 2015)

[Kojiro]

This is not his fault at all - its the Story Group's fault. And its simply not the movie's problem.

Well that leaves us with two options- either they said nothing or they did and RJ ignored them. I cannot see any way RJ could suggest an ongoing chase without someone in the room talking about the relative ship speeds. It's far more reasonable to me that RJ simply chose to ignore it.

As shown, we have six (seven if we include Kylo's ship but I'll count it among the TIEs) different craft show in that chase. From smallest to largest:
The TIE/fo are the fastest- able to run up and down the length of the Raddus easily. Clearly much faster and by far the smallest.
The two Anodyne and the Ninka- a medical frigate (Nebulon B class) and a heavy weapon ship (Free Virgillia class) respectively, less than 900m long combined. Relatively small ships, both so old they served the original Rebellion.
The Resurgent class Stardestroyers- 2.9km long, brand new and built for speed.
The Raddus - 3.4km long and over three decades old.
The Supremacy- the monster of them all at 13.2km long and 60km wide.

So how the fuck does it all work? What rationale explains what we see? The Resurgents are smaller than the Raddus but larger than the frigates, yet they are faster than neither. In fact, the Resurgents are as slow as the Supremacy supposedly. If we accept the claim the FO were at full burn, then their brand new SDs are actually slower than aging Rebellion era craft, both those significantly larger and those significantly smaller. This means that the RSDs are equipped with 11 engines and an extra reactor to power them and still don't manage the performance of 30+ year old ships.

Tell me, do you think an ISD2 would be able to catch a Nebulon B?

[Vympel]

Well that leaves us with two options- either they said nothing or they did and RJ ignored them. I cannot see any way RJ could suggest an ongoing chase without someone in the room talking about the relative ship speeds. It's far more reasonable to me that RJ simply chose to ignore it.

More likely the Story Group wasn't aware of it at the time it was being discussed. The relevant book and TLJ were both being written simultaneously. And quite frankly, even if they were aware, they would've nixed it in the book, not the film. The tail doesn't wag the dog.

As shown, we have six (seven if we include Kylo's ship but I'll count it among the TIEs) different craft show in that chase. From smallest to largest:
The TIE/fo are the fastest- able to run up and down the length of the Raddus easily. Clearly much faster and by far the smallest.
The two Anodyne and the Ninka- a medical frigate (Nebulon B class) and a heavy weapon ship (Free Virgillia class) respectively, less than 900m long combined. Relatively small ships, both so old they served the original Rebellion.

Neither of those ships are Rebellion era. They're New Republic era.

The Resurgent class Stardestroyers- 2.9km long, brand new and built for speed.
The Raddus - 3.4km long and over three decades old.

No? The Raddus is a New Republic warship dude. Where did you get this idea that any of the Resistance fleet comes from the Rebellion? These are all 'new' ships, built during the New Republic's reign.

The Supremacy- the monster of them all at 13.2km long and 60km wide.

So how the fuck does it all work? What rationale explains what we see? The Resurgents are smaller than the Raddus but larger than the frigates, yet they are faster than neither. In fact, the Resurgents are as slow as the Supremacy supposedly. If we accept the claim the FO were at full burn, then their brand new SDs are actually slower than aging Rebellion era craft, both those significantly larger and those significantly smaller. This means that the RSDs are equipped with 11 engines and an extra reactor to power them and still don't manage the performance of 30+ year old ships.

Tell me, do you think an ISD2 would be able to catch a Nebulon B?

I just don't get what needs to be explained? Captain Peavey tells Hux that they're smaller and lighter and therefore they can't catch them.

ISD2s should be able to catch a Nebulon B, but the Resurgent isn't just a big copy of an ISD2. The Resurgent is explicitly a battlecruiser (whatever that means in Star Wars parlance), which an ISD2 has never been described as.

[Kojiro]

Neither of those ships are Rebellion era. They're New Republic era.

My bad, they're basically updated Rebellion era designs for the New Republic. Since the NR dismantled it's fleet 30 years prior to TFA, they're still three decades old at the least.

No? The Raddus is a New Republic warship dude. Where did you get this idea that any of the Resistance fleet comes from the Rebellion? These are all 'new' ships, built during the New Republic's reign.

See above. Even the 'new' ships are old compared to the Resurgents.

I just don't get what needs to be explained? Captain Peavey tells Hux that they're smaller and lighter and therefore they can't catch them.

There in lies the problem. The escorts are smaller and lighter but the Raddus is larger and heavier, with the Resurgents sitting nicely in the middle. I don't care if it's smaller/lighter= faster or bigger/more power= faster, either or. It just makes no sense that aging ships both bigger and smaller would outpace a newer ship, especially one built for speed.

ISD2s should be able to catch a Nebulon B, but the Resurgent isn't just a big copy of an ISD2. The Resurgent is explicitly a battlecruiser (whatever that means in Star Wars parlance), which an ISD2 has never been described as.

These things went from the four sublight engines of the IDS2 to eleven and gave them an extra reactor, purely to power the additional engines. When someone nearly triples their engine power and adds a dedicated power plant for said engines, it's reasonable to assume that speed will increase. That's not new information and reading the ICS is the least a new director could do, especially if his entire plot hinges on the capabilities of said vehicles.

Like it or not, the Resurgents are based on the ISDs, but larger, with more guns, engines and armour. They should not be outrun by aging medical ships, heavy ordinance ships or much larger, bulkier cruisers, and they certainly shouldn't have the same acceleration profile as the Supremacy.

[Vympel]

My bad, they're basically updated Rebellion era designs for the New Republic. Since the NR dismantled it's fleet 30 years prior to TFA, they're still three decades old at the least.

See above. Even the 'new' ships are old compared to the Resurgents.

The New Republic didn't dismantle its fleet dude, it simply reduced it in size. They didn't just stop designing ships. We don't actually know how old those ships are.

There in lies the problem. The escorts are smaller and lighter but the Raddus is larger and heavier, with the Resurgents sitting nicely in the middle. I don't care if it's smaller/lighter= faster or bigger/more power= faster, either or. It just makes no sense that aging ships both bigger and smaller would outpace a newer ship, especially one built for speed.

Yeah, but to me I don't think some random tidbit about 'built for speed' in a book virtually no one watching the film will ever read is an issue for the film. The book's wrong, its not TLJ's problem.

These things went from the four sublight engines of the IDS2 to eleven and gave them an extra reactor, purely to power the additional engines. When someone nearly triples their engine power and adds a dedicated power plant for said engines, it's reasonable to assume that speed will increase. That's not new information and reading the ICS is the least a new director could do, especially if his entire plot hinges on the capabilities of said vehicles.

Dude, screenwriters and directors don't read stuff like ICS books - which - again - didn't even come out until his script was already well under way. You think George Lucas did that? Why should Rian Johnson? The tail doesn't wag the dog. I (or Rian Johnson) can easily say they added the extra engines (which never seem to be actually be lit up, just like those on ISDs are never lit up) and all that jazz because the Resurgent is so much heavier than an ISD that it needed the extra oomph just to maintain a respectable speed.

He's not going to fundamentally change his movie's plot because of an inference you draw from the ICS (or a statement in Before the Awakening). That's just unreasonable, and it's not something anyone has ever been expected to do before.

Like it or not, the Resurgents are based on the ISDs, but larger, with more guns, engines and armour. They should not be outrun by aging medical ships, heavy ordinance ships or much larger, bulkier cruisers, and they certainly shouldn't have the same acceleration profile as the Supremacy.

They're not, actually. The ICS says the Resurgent draws from both the Venator and Imperial-class, not just the Imperial-class.

[Kojiro]

The New Republic didn't dismantle its fleet dude, it simply reduced it in size. They didn't just stop designing ships. We don't actually know how old those ships are.

I'm sure I read somewhere they stopped commissioning new ships shortly after the Battle of Jakku. I thought the Raddus was among those decommissioned?

Yeah, but to me I don't think some random tidbit about 'built for speed' in a book virtually no one watching the film will ever read is an issue for the film. The book's wrong, its not TLJ's problem.

Well sure, but then what's the point of canon if you just ignore it at will?

Dude, screenwriters and directors don't read stuff like ICS books - which - again - didn't even come out until his script was already well under way. You think George Lucas did that? Why should Rian Johnson? The tail doesn't wag the dog.

Man, if I was coming into a franchise as venerable as SW I would read the shit out of the lore to make sure I got it right. I mean sure, high and mighty directors don't, but that's just an admission of laxness to me. I mean, there's nothing stopping them.

I (or Rian Johnson) can easily say they added the extra engines (which never seem to be actually be lit up, just like those on ISDs are never lit up) and all that jazz because the Resurgent is so much heavier than an ISD that it needed the extra oomph just to maintain a respectable speed.

Dude, they're the same speed as the Supremacy.

He's not going to fundamentally change his movie's plot because of an inference you draw from the ICS (or a statement in Before the Awakening). That's just unreasonable, and it's not something anyone has ever been expected to do before.

As I said, I'd immerse myself in the lore of a franchise I was coming into. THEN I'd come up with a plot. Just going 'fuck it I'm writing what I want' is hardly a good way to go. Don't get me wrong, you're probably right that certain directors don't do any homework or heavily immerse themselves. I just don't think that's a good thing, and I think that shows in TLJ.

[Vympel]

I'm sure I read somewhere they stopped commissioning new ships shortly after the Battle of Jakku. I thought the Raddus was among those decommissioned?

Checking Wookiepedia it says it was one of the last ships built before the Military Disarmament Act, so you're right that at least the Raddus is about 30 years old. However, its not clear when it was decommissioned and the fact it has advanced prototype shields would seem to indicate it was in service for a while.

But they can't have stopped military development - that makes no sense. At Jakku, they were still using Rebel ships, the T-70 X-Wing wasn't in service, nor the RZ-2 A-Wing, nevermind the T-85 X-Wing (annihilated at Hosnian Prime)

Gonna combine this:

Well sure, but then what's the point of canon if you just ignore it at will?

Man, if I was coming into a franchise as venerable as SW I would read the shit out of the lore to make sure I got it right. I mean sure, high and mighty directors don't, but that's just an admission of laxness to me. I mean, there's nothing stopping them

Like I've said, there's no reason to believe it was 'ignored'. These books you're insisting should've somehow been 'followed' were being written at the same time he wrote with his script. Why should he change his multi-hundred-million dollar movie's script because of what a mere licensed author wrote, if anyone even noticed? What's clearly more important here? What clearly has more on the line?

[quote
Dude, they're the same speed as the Supremacy. [/quote]

So? Why assume the Supremacy is commensurately slow? It's got a fuckton of gigantic engines itself. Even Executor could catch up to the Falcon.

As I said, I'd immerse myself in the lore of a franchise I was coming into. THEN I'd come up with a plot. Just going 'fuck it I'm writing what I want' is hardly a good way to go. Don't get me wrong, you're probably right that certain directors don't do any homework or heavily immerse themselves. I just don't think that's a good thing, and I think that shows in TLJ.

As above.

[Kojiro]

But they can't have stopped military development - that makes no sense. At Jakku, they were still using Rebel ships, the T-70 X-Wing wasn't in service, nor the RZ-2 A-Wing, nevermind the T-85 X-Wing (annihilated at Hosnian Prime)

Oh I'm sure they continued developments. The T-85 as you mention is more advanced than the X-wings used by the resistance. I could be misremembering but I was under the impression that when the Republic scaled back it had a knock on effect to the Resistance. Since they're not official, they don't get the shiny new toys but instead get the older, retired stuff. For example, I'm sure they came into possession of their T-70s shortly after the New Republic got its shiny new T-85s. but being as scaled down as the NR military was, there was necessarily less to give the Resistance under the table. That at least explains their starved for supplies nature.

The Raddus is extensively retrofitted, mostly for automation but I see no reason why that couldn't include shields. For example, a prototype that was maybe picked up by the Republic at large (with the original disappearing into the Resistances hands).

Either way, the Raddus is old and the Resurgents are new. You said it yourself- the reason for the the Resistance outrunning them was 'smaller and lighter'. Except that the Resurgents are a good 600m shorter (and much flatter) than the Raddus. Smaller and lighter simply doesn't fly for the Resurgents, of which there are plenty present to take down the Raddus.

Like I've said, there's no reason to believe it was 'ignored'. These books you're insisting should've somehow been 'followed' were being written at the same time he wrote with his script. Why should he change his multi-hundred-million dollar movie's script because of what a mere licensed author wrote, if anyone even noticed? What's clearly more important here? What clearly has more on the line?

Because adherence to canon is generally a good thing? But this is really an argument for people working on the same fucking trilogy to actively collaborate somewhat. Apparently RJ inherited next to nothing regarding the setting/plot threads (which is no surprise from JJ really) but that again is just poor workmanship, at least in my opinion.

That said I'm not sure that RJ was writing while TFA was being produced. I mean, Episode IX has barely begun being written, if it even has and we're a couple months past TLJ almost. I mean it'd be horrifying if IX's script had been written and the writer/director decided he wasn't going to be fussed with silly technical details from the TLJ so fuck it. I'm sure you can see a problem there.

So? Why assume the Supremacy is commensurately slow? It's got a fuckton of gigantic engines itself. Even Executor could catch up to the Falcon.

Because we're told that smaller and lighter = faster. Like I said, I don't care if it's small and light= fast or a more realistic version, I just want it to be consistent. If the Supremacy wasn't present, what would the excuse be? Some of them are smaller and lighter?

[Vympel]

But they can't have stopped military development - that makes no sense. At Jakku, they were still using Rebel ships, the T-70 X-Wing wasn't in service, nor the RZ-2 A-Wing, nevermind the T-85 X-Wing (annihilated at Hosnian Prime)
Oh I'm sure they continued developments. The T-85 as you mention is more advanced than the X-wings used by the resistance. I could be misremembering but I was under the impression that when the Republic scaled back it had a knock on effect to the Resistance. Since they're not official, they don't get the shiny new toys but instead get the older, retired stuff. For example, I'm sure they came into possession of their T-70s shortly after the New Republic got its shiny new T-85s. but being as scaled down as the NR military was, there was necessarily less to give the Resistance under the table. That at least explains their starved for supplies nature.

The Raddus is extensively retrofitted, mostly for automation but I see no reason why that couldn't include shields. For example, a prototype that was maybe picked up by the Republic at large (with the original disappearing into the Resistances hands).

Either way, the Raddus is old and the Resurgents are new. You said it yourself- the reason for the the Resistance outrunning them was 'smaller and lighter'. Except that the Resurgents are a good 600m shorter (and much flatter) than the Raddus. Smaller and lighter simply doesn't fly for the Resurgents, of which there are plenty present to take down the Raddus.

Smaller and lighter, emphasis on lighter. It's perfectly conceivable for the Resurgent-class to be both shorter than the Raddus and to displace a lot more due to thicker armor, more weapons, etc etc etc.

Because adherence to canon is generally a good thing? But this is really an argument for people working on the same fucking trilogy to actively collaborate somewhat. Apparently RJ inherited next to nothing regarding the setting/plot threads (which is no surprise from JJ really) but that again is just poor workmanship, at least in my opinion.

That said I'm not sure that RJ was writing while TFA was being produced. I mean, Episode IX has barely begun being written, if it even has and we're a couple months past TLJ almost. I mean it'd be horrifying if IX's script had been written and the writer/director decided he wasn't going to be fussed with silly technical details from the TLJ so fuck it. I'm sure you can see a problem there.

There's zero doubt TLJ was being written while TFA was being produced. It's how Rian Johnson asked JJ Abrams to change the story so that it was R2 who went with Rey to see Luke, and not BB-8 as originally intended.

Because we're told that smaller and lighter = faster. Like I said, I don't care if it's small and light= fast or a more realistic version, I just want it to be consistent. If the Supremacy wasn't present, what would the excuse be? Some of them are smaller and lighter?

What's the inconsistency? The answer must be that Supremacy's gigantic enormous engines can push this heavier and larger ship to a speed equivalent to that of its escorts, right? Proportionally, their thrust-to-weight ratio must be similar, while those of the Resistance ships is superior.

[The Romulan Republic]

By the fact that the alternative is that the First Order's crews aren't fit to man a row boat. So unless it is unambiguously stated that the First Order was not at max acceleration, I think it makes more sense to assume that they were.

You honestly believe the more rational answer is canon material is wrong and the Resurgents and Supremacy are equally fast, but not as fast as smaller corvettes or the larger Raddus?

Well, if its stated in cannon we are admittedly between a rock and a hard place, but...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it was ever stated in the film. If the film does something, and then EU material expands on/explains it in a stupid way that makes the film characters out to be blithering morons, only a very biased person would conclude that this is proof that the film director is stupid, rather than that the EU material made a mistake. I mean, its like saying that because the old EU had a line about how the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire, then the OT directors are stupid for having the Empire build the Executor.

Far better to discard the EU material. So give me a quote from the film or from Rian Johnson confirming that the FO ships were not at max. acceleration, or admit that if there is a fuck-up here, its an EU fuck up, not a film fuck up.

Better to be a passive aggressive wanker huh?

Better to be a lying, trolling piece of shit, huh?

I don't see what's "passive aggressive" about stating my opinion that criticism of comparatively minor failures is being overblown, but if its overt aggression that you want, I can certainly oblige.

Let me guess, I hate women and minorities so much I'll even criticise shitty, inconsistent, canon breaking tech specs because they're in the movie? Oh of course you're not saying that, I'm just displaying traits of the kind of people who would do that or be part of the Alt Reich.

I said none of that, I hinted at none of that, I implied none of that. You are putting words in my mouth, trying to evoke a straw man against me to score cheap points. I mean, what's your goal here? To score points with the "We hate SJWs" crowd? Or to bait me into an angry rant in the hopes that you can damage my credibility/get the thread derailed/get me sanctioned by the mods?

I'm not trying to frame you as a Nazi, but I could say (with far greater justification than your accusation had) that you are trying to frame me as a straw-SJW.

I am tired of people putting words in my mouth so that they can attack me for things I never said. Next person who does it gets reported for dishonesty. End of story.

[Kojiro]

I don't see what's "passive aggressive" about stating my opinion that criticism of comparatively minor failures is being overblown, but if its overt aggression that you want, I can certainly oblige.

Let me start with an apology. It's wrong of me to let frustration vent out in such a way. I forget that we're all here because we're all fans sometimes. I'm sure you believe your side as much as I do mine. I intensely dislike when entertainment of a beloved franchise like this becomes divisive and the hostility it kicks up for a moment there I let it do that to me. I apologise TRR.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't see what's "passive aggressive" about stating my opinion that criticism of comparatively minor failures is being overblown, but if its overt aggression that you want, I can certainly oblige.

Let me start with an apology. It's wrong of me to let frustration vent out in such a way. I forget that we're all here because we're all fans sometimes. I'm sure you believe your side as much as I do mine. I intensely dislike when entertainment of a beloved franchise like this becomes divisive and the hostility it kicks up for a moment there I let it do that to me. I apologise TRR.

Its appreciated.

Yes, sometimes it becomes a bit too hostile. I regret it as well, all the more because usually these days its not the SF forums where things get really vicious. Usually, I perceive SF debates as an escape from the tension of political debates, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. It is regrettable to me that the TLJ discussions in particular have repeatedly become nasty and personal. And yes, I'm aware that I bear some of the responsibility for that. For which I apologize as well.

[Galvatron]

Upon further reflection, I think the only thing I actually liked about TLJ was Luke and his arc. The rest was either stupid or boring. In my opinion, of course.

[The Romulan Republic]

Upon further reflection, I think the only thing I actually liked about TLJ was Luke and his arc. The rest was either stupid or boring. In my opinion, of course.

I liked Luke's last stand (bitter old man Luke I could have done without, but I can accept it as part of the journey to that finale).

Beyond that, I liked:

-Finn's development.
-Leia using the Force. Not the way I would have chosen, but its something.
-Subverting the "Rogue hero rebels against obstructive authority figures" cliche with Poe and Holdo.
-The visuals and music, generally. I felt that John Williams was back to form after the somewhat weaker TFA score, and "The Spark" (the piece that plays when Luke goes out to face Kylo Ren) is up there with Imperial March, Rey's Theme, and Duel of the Fates as one of my favorites in the franchise. For visuals, the hyperspace ramming was particularly memorable.
-Seeing a successful Dark Side apprentice betrayal.
-More of a focus on space battles than a lot of the prior films.
-The jabs at the "both sides" narratives and modern cynicism in general.

Those are the main good points for me.

[The Romulan Republic]

I guess I should also add Rose to the plus column. She tends to get overlooked somewhat, I've noticed, in discussions of this film (which may be a good thing, as I've seen less racist/sexist bullshit flung at her than at Rey and Finn and Holdo). But I like her for three reasons:

1. Call me an SJW, but it is really long past time that there was an Asian main character in Star Wars. Considering that Asians outnumber white people on this planet, but previously had virtually zero presence in the Star Wars galaxy (at least as far as the films were concerned).

2. Her interactions with Finn contributed to his further development as a character, from someone who's just in it for himself and his friends, to someone who is committed to the Resistance cause and his role as a Resistance hero. I think he needed to learn to see the galaxy, and himself, through the eyes of a rank-and-file Resistance member, to facilitate that. And that is the role Rose played.

3. Rose herself is a new character type in a Star Wars film, or very nearly. We've seen very little in the films from the point of view of the ordinary grunts. Its mostly Jedi and commanders as far as major characters are concerned, with the odd smuggler thrown in. Finn gave us a First Order grunt, to start with, but good guy rank and file have tended to be relegated to Redshirt status. There was Wedge, who wasn't really a main character, and he was the closest in the OT. The closest to that sort of character in the PT was... Jar Jar.

Rogue One and TLJ have basically been the first films to give this kind of character a major role, and in Rogue One, most of them were outsiders caught up briefly in the Alliance's struggle (though I loved how Rogue One had the success of the entire mission, the outcome of the entire film's plot and the set-up for the OT, hinge on a few doomed redshirts in a hallway).

Weather deliberately or not, Disney Star Wars seems to be the first part of the franchise, film-wise at least, that bothers to put the focus on the ordinary people fighting the good fight.

[ray245]

I guess I should also add Rose to the plus column. She tends to get overlooked somewhat, I've noticed, in discussions of this film (which may be a good thing, as I've seen less racist/sexist bullshit flung at her than at Rey and Finn and Holdo). But I like her for three reasons:

1. Call me an SJW, but it is really long past time that there was an Asian main character in Star Wars. Considering that Asians outnumber white people on this planet, but previously had virtually zero presence in the Star Wars galaxy (at least as far as the films were concerned).

2. Her interactions with Finn contributed to his further development as a character, from someone who's just in it for himself and his friends, to someone who is committed to the Resistance cause and his role as a Resistance hero. I think he needed to learn to see the galaxy, and himself, through the eyes of a rank-and-file Resistance member, to facilitate that. And that is the role Rose played.

3. Rose herself is a new character type in a Star Wars film, or very nearly. We've seen very little in the films from the point of view of the ordinary grunts. Its mostly Jedi and commanders as far as major characters are concerned, with the odd smuggler thrown in. Finn gave us a First Order grunt, to start with, but good guy rank and file have tended to be relegated to Redshirt status. There was Wedge, who wasn't really a main character, and he was the closest in the OT. The closest to that sort of character in the PT was... Jar Jar.

Rogue One and TLJ have basically been the first films to give this kind of character a major role, and in Rogue One, most of them were outsiders caught up briefly in the Alliance's struggle (though I loved how Rogue One had the success of the entire mission, the outcome of the entire film's plot and the set-up for the OT, hinge on a few doomed redshirts in a hallway).

Weather deliberately or not, Disney Star Wars seems to be the first part of the franchise, film-wise at least, that bothers to put the focus on the ordinary people fighting the good fight.

Narratively, putting regular grunts as main characters doesn't work when the rest of the cast are all high ranking commanders and generals. The grunt is effectively nothing more than someone to be ordered around by the rest of the main cast, making them feel a little too subservient.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think it worked with Rose because they put her with Finn, who has no official Resistance rank, for most of the film.

I dare say she'll get a promotion next film.

[Galvatron]

If they abide by Star Wars tradition, Finn will be a general in the next movie.