Star Wars VII - Trailer Discussion

[Darth Nostril]

Colbert covered the teaser on his show and shared his thoughts on the new light sabre design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk9hd950-9I

I also rather liked his segue "starting with a major conflict, once again, in a troubled desert region". If I had been alive at the time, I would have been rather jealous that he got to see the movie two weeks early.

I was alive at the time and I am jealous.

Although I was the first person at my school to see it so I can definitely relate to "no one understands how everything has changed"

[Adam Reynolds]

No worries. For clarity, I personally define character shield as protecting the character from permanent harm. Compare what happened to the main characters with all the mooks gunned down on the Tantive V and on Hoth. The only real death, Obi Wan, took place at the hands of another main character.

Even when there was a difference of circumstances? The Rebels gunned down on Tantive IV were in a hallway with no cover and poor weapons. Han and Luke in ANH as well as Leia and Chewie in ESB were all armed with the same weapons as stormtroopers. On Hoth the Rebels were facing a much heavier assault, backed up by heavy ground vehicles. The most the heroes have had to face was a handful of stormtroopers at a time.

Yes that's very true, but character shields exist whether or not you see it at the time you're watching the movies. If you look back in hindsight and ask, "Why did the Stormtroopers do so poorly vs the Main characters vs other mooks?"

Character shields exist in hindsight because we see the characters survive. Didn't Obi-Wan have a character shield in the preqeuls? Why did it suddenly expire in ANH? If Han Solo dies in the new movie, would he still have a character shield? In Band of Brothers, did Richard Winters have a character shield because he survived the entire war, despite the fact that he was a real person? He made several foolish tactical decisions on D-Day, bursting through cover and spending half the night unarmed, as it was his first experience in combat and he survived fine. Did Audie Murphy have a character shield in To Hell and Back? He was one of only two soldiers in his company of 235 to avoid injury after 30 months of combat, despite a number of risky moves in combat, including the actions that won him the Medal of Honor.

Same as you did, and I agree that it is plausible that the Stormtroopers on the Death Star were ordered to herd the rebels back onto the Falcon. On Bespin, it seems far less likely that they were ordered to herd the rebels to the Falcon, when capturing them right then and there would have been preferable.

While I don't disagree, how many stormtroopers were in Cloud City? We never see more than twenty or so at once, there is nothing to suggest there were ever that many and the overwhelming majority were caught off guard. After Lando ordered his city evacuate, which was around the same time that the stormtroopers began to respond, the heroes also had a great deal of cover from that. It is also notable that we never saw the same level of incompetence as in ANH where Han ran into a group of stormtrooper who ran away. As the heroes were constantly retreating, they almost always had better cover. On top of this there was a strong sense of desperation with the escape not feeling easy in the same sense as ANH.

[Borgholio]

The Rebels gunned down on Tantive IV were in a hallway with no cover and poor weapons.

Compared to a squad of Stormtroopers firing several dozen shots at Luke and not scoring a single hit, despite him standing there in the open after watching Obi Wan die? Or a room full of literally a hundred troopers filling a hallway with almost solid blaster fire yet failing to turn Han into swiss cheese?

Character shields exist in hindsight because we see the characters survive.

No, character shields exist when people survive despite conditions where no normal human should have emerged alive. Obi Wan surviving the Clone Wars isn't a character shield, since he didn't face an impossible situation and get out with contemptuous ease (at least IIRC...it's been awhile since I watched the prequels). He only died because of plot. Another almost perfect example would be in SW : Rebels when Kanan jumps out from behind the packing crates and somehow not only manages to avoid being hit by a dozen Stormtroopers at almost melee range, but also somehow holds them off with his lightsaber when we see Jedi Masters in AOTC being killed by a couple of basic battle droids. There is no plausible way for Kanan to have survived that if it weren't for a character shield.

Character shields can't exist in Band of Brothers, or any other real life example. There's no writer deciding that Captain Winters had to survive the war just because he's a main character and he needs to survive. One bad stroke of luck could have had him nailed by a mortar and that would be it. But when dealing with Stormtroopers vs main characters, they are almost ALWAYS dumbed down to the point that they're not a threat. There's always some excuse or circumstance that makes for decent drama but less than decent continuity. The Nazis didn't wipe out every other company and only got stupid when Easy Company was involved. They were a persistent threat and were only beaten because the Allies had better numbers and better equipment.

how many stormtroopers were in Cloud City?

You're right, we never see more than a dozen or so at a time. Same goes for the Tantive boarding action. If the Empire wishes to take control of a city (as with a ship) it's reasonable to assume they would use a lot more Stormtroopers than we see on screen. What we see on screen shows two different scenarios. On the Tantive, many of the Rebel troops are standing with practically no cover at all, and are gunned down within seconds of the breach. On Bespin, we have Chewbacca slowly lumbering his way towards the exit, and several shots clearly miss his massive bulk, while he slowly turns around and shoots back. Again, that level of incompetence is never witnessed when it's Stormtroopers vs mooks.

[Adam Reynolds]

Compared to a squad of Stormtroopers firing several dozen shots at Luke and not scoring a single hit, despite him standing there in the open after watching Obi Wan die? Or a room full of literally a hundred troopers filling a hallway with almost solid blaster fire yet failing to turn Han into swiss cheese?

Even you admitted that it was plausible that they were ordered to miss. It was notable that we only saw this level of incompetence late in the Death Star escape, after Vader and Tarkin likely came up with their plans. After this happened both sides admitted that the Empire let them go. Tracking them back to the Rebel base isn't exactly possible if stormtroopers shoot them.

No, character shields exist when people survive despite conditions where no normal human should have emerged alive. Obi Wan surviving the Clone Wars isn't a character shield, since he didn't face an impossible situation and get out with contemptuous ease (at least IIRC...it's been awhile since I watched the prequels). He only died because of plot. Another almost perfect example would be in SW : Rebels when Kanan jumps out from behind the packing crates and somehow not only manages to avoid being hit by a dozen Stormtroopers at almost melee range, but also somehow holds them off with his lightsaber when we see Jedi Masters in AOTC being killed by a couple of basic battle droids. There is no plausible way for Kanan to have survived that if it weren't for a character shield.

Obi-Wan only died because he let himself. As for his exploits in the Clone Wars, he did survive going up against Grevious and his entire army, briefly alone, something that should have been quite suicidal.

Given that I have never seen Rebels, I can't really comment on this particular incident, but there is no question that Jedi were weaker in AOTC than in many other cases. It was also generally more than a couple of basic battle droids and the arena was also full of heavier SBDs and droidekas in addition to heavier weapons. Most of the proper masters also survived. I will also point out that there is no way that series can be taken to be visually accurate at the same level as the films given the massive inconsistencies between and even something within episodes. In Clone Wars, on more than one occasion, we saw both clones and various battle droids repeatedly shoot the same spot on the wall instead of the enemy. We also saw hand blasters obliterate a rock structure in one episode, only for walkers to trudge along a narrow ridge line in the next, with no apparent damage from vehicle mounted weapons. To say that those shows have obvious budget limitations on what they can show as compared to the movies would be an understatement.

Character shields can't exist in Band of Brothers, or any other real life example. There's no writer deciding that Captain Winters had to survive the war just because he's a main character and he needs to survive. One bad stroke of luck could have had him nailed by a mortar and that would be it. But when dealing with Stormtroopers vs main characters, they are almost ALWAYS dumbed down to the point that they're not a threat. There's always some excuse or circumstance that makes for decent drama but less than decent continuity. The Nazis didn't wipe out every other company and only got stupid when Easy Company was involved. They were a persistent threat and were only beaten because the Allies had better numbers and better equipment.

But my point was that it is a question of character focus. We see stories about Richard Winters and not some other random officer because he survived the war to tell them. Likewise under SOD, we see stories about Han Solo and Chewbacca rather than Captain Antilies* because they survived the war to tell them. The Empire doesn't get stupid when the heroes show up, they appear stupid when they are caught off guard.

You're right, we never see more than a dozen or so at a time. Same goes for the Tantive boarding action. If the Empire wishes to take control of a city (as with a ship) it's reasonable to assume they would use a lot more Stormtroopers than we see on screen. What we see on screen shows two different scenarios. On the Tantive, many of the Rebel troops are standing with practically no cover at all, and are gunned down within seconds of the breach. On Bespin, we have Chewbacca slowly lumbering his way towards the exit, and several shots clearly miss his massive bulk, while he slowly turns around and shoots back. Again, that level of incompetence is never witnessed when it's Stormtroopers vs mooks.

My theory as to why stormtroopers fail in when caught off guard and are extremely lethal in when on the offensive is based on their C2 nets. Thus it would make sense that when they are utilized in planned combined operations they have much better radio channels available with proper boosting equipment in order for them to be maximally effective. On the covert operation in Cloud City they never planned for sustained operations and thus had limited resources once it turned into an actual battle. On Endor, their channels likely flowed through AT-STs and when they began being destroyed they became much less effective. While obviously one could criticize the doctrine of stormtroopers that led to this, it does give a valid explanation for both their successes and failures. The Clone Army likely had similar systems, but their soldiers were trained and conditioned to the point that they used their system as a bonus rather than as a crutch as the stormtrooper seem to. The fact that stormtroopers would rarely be used in actual combat operations would also be problematic in this regard, that there wouldn't be enough cases of failure for such a system to really show its flaws.

It was like the US Navy and Air Force in Vietnam. The F-4 was designed to chase Soviet bombers with long range missiles and a powerful radar, combined with an all around fast aircraft. When the F-4 was used in the war, it was far less effective than it should have been to to the rules of engagement requiring visual identification and forcing it into dogfights with much smaller and more agile Russian designs. As a result the North Vietnamese Air Force actually has what is one of the most lopsided aerial kill rations in history, managing to have 17 aces to the Americans 3.

My point about the numbers at Cloud City was that after Lando warned his people to evacuate, the overwhelming majority of stormtroopers were likely busy with that rather than chasing the heroes. Though one point that does back up the theory that Vader let them escape is the fact that there were no stormtroopers guarding the Millenium Falcon. While I don't totally support this idea, as it requires that Vader be clairvoyant enough to realize every detail except for R2's presence, it could be the case that the stormtroopers were somewhat sold out to dry for the purpose of allowing the heroes to escape and potentially rescue Luke.

I'm quoting this twice but it is to make two different points.

What we see on screen shows two different scenarios. On the Tantive, many of the Rebel troops are standing with practically no cover at all, and are gunned down within seconds of the breach. On Bespin, we have Chewbacca slowly lumbering his way towards the exit, and several shots clearly miss his massive bulk, while he slowly turns around and shoots back. Again, that level of incompetence is never witnessed when it's Stormtroopers vs mooks.

And on D-day entire landing craft full of American or British soldiers were nearly wiped out by machine gun fire**. In Holland, Captain Winters stood alone on top of a dyke against the majority of a German battalion and survived unscathed. The fact is that different circumstances give different results in combat.

* Amusingly the webcomic Darths and Droids, with the premise that Star Wars was a tabletop RPG session, had an idea similar to this, with Jim playing Captain Antilies, dying, and then switching to his new character Han Solo( actually Greedo, who then killed and impersonated Han).
** I'm not actually sure the exact details on this. Are there any confirmed cases of an entire landing craft full of soldiers that were killed?

[Havok]

Little late on the response but this bit bugged me.

No worries. For clarity, I personally define character shield as protecting the character from permanent harm. Compare what happened to the main characters with all the mooks gunned down on the Tantive V and on Hoth. The only real death, Obi Wan, took place at the hands of another main character.

Now I know it's easy to forget this, given how many times we have all see these movies, but when these were new, no one knew who was going to live and die and there certainly was a sense of danger for the characters, especially over the course of Empire and even through Jedi when the Ewoks were dying and you didn't know what was going to happen.

Yes that's very true, but character shields exist whether or not you see it at the time you're watching the movies. If you look back in hindsight and ask, "Why did the Stormtroopers do so poorly vs the Main characters vs other mooks?"

I mean, what movies did you watch?

Same as you did, and I agree that it is plausible that the Stormtroopers on the Death Star were ordered to herd the rebels back onto the Falcon. On Bespin, it seems far less likely that they were ordered to herd the rebels to the Falcon, when capturing them right then and there would have been preferable.

I get your point and I really have no problem with it. However, three things.

1) While we watch these movies over and over and break down every little bit, when talking about something like character shields you have to go back to the first viewing and watch it from that POV. That's how they are made. Lucas didn't expect people to watch Star Wars literally a thousand times. Upon the first viewing do you feel that the characters were in real danger? Especially after Luke's parents get toasted and Obi-Wan dies, damn right. You just didn't know, especially as a kid.

2) I feel like people come at movies like this all wrong. We aren't being told this story because these guys were OMG uber-wank bad ass with character shields, we are being told this story because it was fucking amazing that these 5 people did what they did and survived.

3)As has been pointed out, pretty much ever scenario with Stormtroopers Vs Main Characters has very plausible reasons, a couple down right likely, as to why the Stormtroopers may not be going full incinerate kill mode.

[Borgholio]

Even you admitted that it was plausible that they were ordered to miss. It was notable that we only saw this level of incompetence late in the Death Star escape, after Vader and Tarkin likely came up with their plans. After this happened both sides admitted that the Empire let them go. Tracking them back to the Rebel base isn't exactly possible if stormtroopers shoot them.

Yes, indeed I did. But look at it this way. Han, Leia and Chewie were already on the ship and Luke was just standing there like a dumb shit. The homing beacon would have been just fine even if Luke had been killed...since Han and Leia could still escape. So there's really no reason why every single one of them would have needed to be kept alive unless specific orders were given to avoid hitting any single one of the intruders under any circumstances. Which opens a whole new can of worms if one of them is trying to sabotage a critical part of the station and the Stormtroopers aren't allowed to even wing them... So to put it another way, Luke didn't need to survive...but he did because of plot.

To say that those shows have obvious budget limitations on what they can show as compared to the movies would be an understatement.

I see what you're saying, but the same thing applies to the movies as well. You see Jedi in the PT performing acts of acrobatics and Force prowess that are never seen in the OT, despite supposedly being weakened. There are inconsistencies everywhere you look, so chalking it up to a different medium (TV vs Movies, for instance) is probably not the best way to go. If you just look at Rebels by itself as a standalone without comparing it to anything else, you still have to ask how the Stormtroopers could be so pathetic.

We see stories about Richard Winters and not some other random officer because he survived the war to tell them.

Not exactly. In the miniseries, Band of Brothers, we actually hear tales from the POV of many survivors of Easy Company, including Bill Guarnere who was a main character and got his leg completely blown off. They picked people to interview based not just on if they survived or not, but if they are currently still alive and if they had an interesting story to tell. I never heard about any of the cooks or mess officers, or any of the people who in Star Wars would be considered mooks. Winters was the commanding officer of Easy Company so naturally they would want to tell his story. They could have easily focused on Captain Sobel, who ended his WW2 service as a supply officer. But that would have been very boring.

And once again, you can't have character shields in nonfiction because people don't live or die based on plot or writer's fiat.

In Holland, Captain Winters stood alone on top of a dyke against the majority of a German battalion and survived unscathed. The fact is that different circumstances give different results in combat.

Ok I think it's time we moved away from the RL examples. Character shields by definition can't even exist IRL so we should just look at the fiction of Star Wars. Within Star Wars, when Stormtroopers meet our Rebel Heroes, is there any reason to explain how their performance suddenly drops off? For the Death Star and possibly Bespin, we have somewhat reasonable explanations. But there are no explanations for the other times Stormtroopers encounter people who must stay alive because of plot.

[Borgholio]

Upon the first viewing do you feel that the characters were in real danger?

Very much so, and it actually wasn't until when I was much older that I began to question why they seemed to be such bad shots.

We aren't being told this story because these guys were OMG uber-wank bad ass with character shields, we are being told this story because it was fucking amazing that these 5 people did what they did and survived.

Sure, I always giggle when the tension music plays during Luke's trench run. It's just part of me looks at the number of missed shots and wonders, "Why?" But it's easy enough to turn off my brain and enjoy firefights on the Death Star because...well...things blow up.

As has been pointed out, pretty much ever scenario with Stormtroopers Vs Main Characters has very plausible reasons, a couple down right likely, as to why the Stormtroopers may not be going full incinerate kill mode.

And I'm fine with that mostly. If every time we have a legitimate reason why the main characters aren't hit when we think they should have been...that's fine. It actually says a lot about the discipline of the Stormtroopers in the docking bay to have them deliberately miss what any half-assed marksman could hit without even trying...even when they're being blown away themselves. So if that's why they kept missing...because Darth Vader himself ordered them to do so, well that's fine. I just don't like having to come up with an excuse every time we see that kind of behavior. I guess that's my problem.

[Adam Reynolds]

2) I feel like people come at movies like this all wrong. We aren't being told this story because these guys were OMG uber-wank bad ass with character shields, we are being told this story because it was fucking amazing that these 5 people did what they did and survived.

This is basically the short version of what I was arguing.

And I'm fine with that mostly. If every time we have a legitimate reason why the main characters aren't hit when we think they should have been...that's fine. It actually says a lot about the discipline of the Stormtroopers in the docking bay to have them deliberately miss what any half-assed marksman could hit without even trying...even when they're being blown away themselves. So if that's why they kept missing...because Darth Vader himself ordered them to do so, well that's fine. I just don't like having to come up with an excuse every time we see that kind of behavior. I guess that's my problem.

I actually agree with this point. It would be nice if there was less ambiguity as to the quality of stormtroopers, but in a way it is impossible when rewatching these movies, as Havok pointed out. Perhaps the best idea is having more of what Obi-Wan usually did, both in ANH and the PT, heavy use of stealth rather than overt combat. By relying on stealth, one can only have the heroes attack when they already have the advantage and thus be justified in their victories.

Ok I think it's time we moved away from the RL examples. Character shields by definition can't even exist IRL so we should just look at the fiction of Star Wars. Within Star Wars, when Stormtroopers meet our Rebel Heroes, is there any reason to explain how their performance suddenly drops off? For the Death Star and possibly Bespin, we have somewhat reasonable explanations. But there are no explanations for the other times Stormtroopers encounter people who must stay alive because of plot.

In a way our issue is that we seem to be coming at this from different angles, I was arguing under suspension of disbelief where the idea of a character shield is impossible. My point with the real life examples was that luck is a major factor in reality and can be used to justify the circumstances we see in Star Wars when using SOD. How many times do stormtroopers encounter people who must stay alive because of plot?

I see what you're saying, but the same thing applies to the movies as well. You see Jedi in the PT performing acts of acrobatics and Force prowess that are never seen in the OT, despite supposedly being weakened. There are inconsistencies everywhere you look, so chalking it up to a different medium (TV vs Movies, for instance) is probably not the best way to go. If you just look at Rebels by itself as a standalone without comparing it to anything else, you still have to ask how the Stormtroopers could be so pathetic.

I've never considered the cartoons "real" in the same sense as the movies. Due to their stylized nature, they lack the same clarity as the films. Unlike Lucas, who spent days on a single 20 second clip, they were forced to be expedient in their creative process in a way that limits their ability to be true to the universe.

In the original continuity, there was an idea that various works were windows into the setting. The idea was that each one has a varying degree of cloudiness to it that limited the truth of what occurred. So when there were references to things like 3 million clone troopers, it could be chalked up to that particular window being cloudy. However the new canon policy seems to be going in a direction that agrees more with your interpretation.

As for the flashy Jedi acrobatics in the PT as compared to the OT, we never see any full strength Jedi or Sith in the originals. The fact that the Jedi in the originals are more subdued in their powers is a product of the times. A fully trained but weakened Jedi is still more able to do flashy aerobatics than one who never received much training.

Sure, I always giggle when the tension music plays during Luke's trench run. It's just part of me looks at the number of missed shots and wonders, "Why?" But it's easy enough to turn off my brain and enjoy firefights on the Death Star because...well...things blow up.

As a side note, this got me thinking again about the exhaust port flaw on the Death Star. I was wondering if missile weapons were all that common before the OT era, even when used by fighters against capital ships. When we see starfighters from the prequels, few of them actually carry missiles, with the only exceptions being Naboo fighters and the ARC-170, with only Naboo fighters actually using them. We also see Anakin using his fighters guns against point targets in ROTS. Even when the missiles are fired in TPM, they only fire without arming. The idea among militaries might be that when one is interested in making precision attacks, one uses guns rather than missiles. It would thus make sense in this context that putting ray shields over the exhaust port was considered enough. It was considered an all but impossible as a missile shot by most Rebel pilots. It was only after it was mentioned that it had to be done with torpedoes that Wedge called it impossible.

[Esquire]

I always figured that the PT-era Republic had "defend capital ships from droid fighters" as its primary mission for fighters, since the stupidly huge numbers of Vulture droids CIS ships carried meant that a point strike wasn't usually practical (exceptions being Jedi pilots, as always.) So the mass a Republic starfighter designer might have spent on warheads would be better spent on better dogfighting characteristics, be it maneuverability, armor, or extra guns. Major fleet actions were much more common in the Clone Wars so it wouldn't be unreasonable to count on having enough heavy guns available to take out enemy ships without missiles.

By the time we get to the OT timeframe, the missions of fighters on both sides have changed. The Rebels don't have enough capital ships to go around, so they have to use warhead-armed fighters to take out hard targets. The Empire, meanwhile, has to defend widely-separated targets from small numbers of attackers, then chase the fleeing rebels if they survive the attack or break off early. Suddenly straight-line peed and single-shot firepower matter more than dogfighting capabilities, so shields that might keep you from being cooked by a turbolaser near-miss and rapid-fire lasers intended for snapshots at maneuvering targets fall out of favor, replaced by fast, cheap ships that can be emplaced as basically-defensive units all across the galaxy and kill a Y-wing with one shot instead of putting lots of holes into whatever's behind it from a rapid stream of bolts.

[Batman]

The ray shielding on the exhaust port should have been a complete nonissue anyway-there's no way to make that shot with ray guns even more than there's with missiles. At least missiles can be guided. You not only have to hit the damn opening, you have to hit the reactor at the end of the shaft a couple dozen km down the line. That means extremely precise targeting even if you manage to live to get into a position to attempt the shot, which you likely won't. You come at the shaft from directly above as to get the best possible lineup, hello turbolasers. You try to use the trench, you have to stop dead above the exhaust port so you can fire straight down it. And the moment that shaft has so much as a mild curve, you can kiss hitting the reactor goodbye.
Of course Dodonna mentioning ray shielding hints at that being a problem for some reason, but given what we know about Wars weapons I don't see how they could've achieved the DS kill with energy weapons.

[Borgholio]

My point with the real life examples was that luck is a major factor in reality and can be used to justify the circumstances we see in Star Wars when using SOD.

Fair enough.

My point with the real life examples was that luck is a major factor in reality and can be used to justify the circumstances we see in Star Wars when using SOD.

I can certainly accept luck as the reason for many things happening in SW. First on my mind is how lucky it was that Vader's wingman in the trench managed to panic and swerve towards Vader's fighter and knock it out of the fight, instead of swerving into the wall and allowing Vader to finish off Luke. Another example is on the Tantive where 3PO and R2 cross straight across the line of fire and don't get hit by either the Imperials or the Rebels. That was pretty damn lucky, and it can't be blamed on poor marksmanship since both sides weren't really aiming for the droids in the first place.

How many times do stormtroopers encounter people who must stay alive because of plot?

Well if we're including things that may have other explanations such as the Death Star escape...I can think of 8 right offhand : Docking bay 94 on Tatooing, Han running around the corner into the room full of Stormtroopers, Han being chased past the closing blast doors, Luke and Leia when trying to get across the chasm, the main docking bay after Obi Wan is killed, failing to shoot Chewbacca in the back on Bespin, and failing to hit R2 after he turns on his fire extinguisher (I thought Stormtrooper helmets had enhanced vision), and trying to capture Han and Leia on Endor instead of just shooting them (most of your legion was killed by Ewoks and you have two Rebels trying to break into the command center to blow it up and you try to take them prisoner?).

But again, many of those have already been explained away...but any one of the heroes getting killed in those situations could not happen if the current story plot was to be maintained.

The idea among militaries might be that when one is interested in making precision attacks, one uses guns rather than missiles. It would thus make sense in this context that putting ray shields over the exhaust port was considered enough. It was considered an all but impossible as a missile shot by most Rebel pilots. It was only after it was mentioned that it had to be done with torpedoes that Wedge called it impossible.

Well as I understood it, a capital ship's point defense was typically good enough to shoot down torpedoes unless they were spammed in large numbers. They also tended to be useless unless they were large anti-capital torpedoes that were too big for a starfighter. In the ROTJ novel a large thermonuclear missile detonates against the front window of Home-1 and they don't even feel it.

[Purple]

This has been suggested before but perhaps the answer is more mundane. Perhaps the stormtroopers are elite but not really any good. Think about it. The empire is a dictatorship lead by a power hungry evil wizard. It makes sense that what ever selection/conditioning process he has for his "elite" troops depending on if its recruits or clones would emphasize loyalty and doctrinal correctness even if it comes at the expense of fighting ability. In fact, this would make a lot of sense given that the kind of fighting he expects these troops to do is not against properly led and equipped armies but against insurgents hiding among the civilian population. The emperor does not need an army capable of defeating an equal army. He needs one that can burn planets for him without flinching or starting to think that maybe, just maybe they are the baddies.

[Lord Revan]

Well I consider the Stormtroopers to be "elite" the same way Waffen-SS was "elite" in that they got best equipment and mental training but their quality as actual soldiers varies, so you can have thugs in uniform and with license to stomp on the "little people" and you can have really high quality soldiers that beat a military force with superior numbers and equipment with seeming ease.

Obviously the imperial propaganda would emphasise the high quality ones, while the thugs with guns would more likely to make up the bulk of the ranks especially if stationed on a semi peacefull outer rim world (no need for active combat troops and since it's outer rim few at Corusant would care enough to send anything higher quality).

[Adam Reynolds]

I can certainly accept luck as the reason for many things happening in SW. First on my mind is how lucky it was that Vader's wingman in the trench managed to panic and swerve towards Vader's fighter and knock it out of the fight, instead of swerving into the wall and allowing Vader to finish off Luke.

That was one that always bugged me. Why didn't Han shoot Vader, the lead fighter. The other one there was the question of where Vader's laser fire went. As the Falcon dove in shooting his wingman, Vader already had a target lock and had began firing.

Another example is on the Tantive where 3PO and R2 cross straight across the line of fire and don't get hit by either the Imperials or the Rebels. That was pretty damn lucky, and it can't be blamed on poor marksmanship since both sides weren't really aiming for the droids in the first place.

Amusingly, this point has actually been used to argue in favor of stormtrooper accuracy, that they were accurate and disciplined enough to avoid shooting the droids in case said droids carried the Death Star plans they were there to find. What a coincidence, though R2 actually didn't have them yet.

As a side note with that bit, the question of why the Imperial gunners failed to shoot the escape pod does have an explanation. C3P0 made the comment that R2 would be deactivated as he was entering the escape pod. Thus it would make sense that droids getting inside an escape pod without the organic crew is never done. Thus when one jettisoned without life signs, the assumption that it was anything other than a misfire was logical.

This was part of my reason for defending the internal logic, Star Wars does a much better job than most similar stories in terms of justifying things.

and failing to hit R2 after he turns on his fire extinguisher (I thought Stormtrooper helmets had enhanced vision

There might actually be an excuse for this. A CO2 fire extinguisher can be used to block a FLIR camera today. This was done once on Mythbusters when they were attempting to recreate a scene from a film in which a character was kidnapped while being shadowed by a drone and dumped into one of three cars which drove in different directions. It would stand to reason that the Star Wars version would have the same ability.

This has been suggested before but perhaps the answer is more mundane. Perhaps the stormtroopers are elite but not really any good. Think about it. The empire is a dictatorship lead by a power hungry evil wizard. It makes sense that what ever selection/conditioning process he has for his "elite" troops depending on if its recruits or clones would emphasize loyalty and doctrinal correctness even if it comes at the expense of fighting ability. In fact, this would make a lot of sense given that the kind of fighting he expects these troops to do is not against properly led and equipped armies but against insurgents hiding among the civilian population. The emperor does not need an army capable of defeating an equal army. He needs one that can burn planets for him without flinching or starting to think that maybe, just maybe they are the baddies.

But part of the problem with that idea is that given the scale of the Star Wars galaxy, even a minor rebellion can have a great deal of firepower and require a conventional military presence in order to stop it. This is a fundamental trade off, a light military structured towards fighting an insurgency will get utterly obliterated by a conventional enemy. The trade off is that a conventional military can still fight an insurgency by destroying it whenever they can find it, though obviously they would have a harder time finding it. Hoth, in which we see a full scale mechanized assault by the Empire, seems to imply that they have taken the latter approach.

Though this point might not apply to the entire stormtrooper corps, it is not without merit, especially with regard to the Imperial garrison at Endor. Like any smart dictator, Palpatine undoubtedly had a garrison deployed to Endor that he could count on for reliability rather than military skill. Over time such a unit would also loose the experienced combat soldiers and gain those who looked good in parades. If the systems in stormtrooper armor were advanced enough they could also somewhat compensate for deficiencies in training and experience. Especially in contrast to the Rebel team on Endor, who undoubtedly consisted of almost exclusively combat veterans, including the heroes.

In any case, none of this really matters to the new movies as stormtroopers of that era are undoubtedly all combat veterans, assuming the concept of the Imperial Civil War remains. Though it would be difficult for the Empire to survive in light of such a conflict, so perhaps it effectively never happens. Though without an Imperial Civil War it would be odd that the Alliance would survive enough that they are show using new X-wings.

[LaCroix]

Also, the Unit at the Endor backdoor might not have been notified that Skywalker had already turned himself in, and still be operating under strict "I need them alive" orders issued by Vader. OR still under such orders - after all, any rebel to interrogate to find the rest of the organisation (they only intended to crush their fleet in that trap) would be valuable. Stormtroopers wear armor and are elite troops - arguing they should be able to capture a group of rebels (which they did) and rout an attacking indigenous tribe (which they almost did, if Chewie hadn't managed to capture one of their armored vehicles - the Imperials were clearly winning at that point) is not unreasonable.

And when Vader issues an order, you don't want to be the one disobeying or messing up.

[Borgholio]

As a side note with that bit, the question of why the Imperial gunners failed to shoot the escape pod does have an explanation. C3P0 made the comment that R2 would be deactivated as he was entering the escape pod. Thus it would make sense that droids getting inside an escape pod without the organic crew is never done. Thus when one jettisoned without life signs, the assumption that it was anything other than a misfire was logical.

I always interpreted it as 3PO saying that R2 would be deactivated as punishment for doing what droids aren't supposed to do if they're programmed correctly. Entering the escape pod was simply against the rules for droids.

Plus the "Not shooting at the empty pod" part, was spoofed perfectly in Family Guy's Star Wars movie.

Imperial Officer 1: Hold your fire. There's no life forms aboard.

Imperial Officer 2: Hold your fire? What, are we paying by the laser now?

Imperial Officer 1: You don't do the budget, Terry. I do.

[Anacronian]

It might just be a case of "Oh nobody is alive on that escape pod..what else would be important enough to jettison? aha those plans Lord Vader is looking for.. perhaps we should not destroy the escape pod."

[Borgholio]

It might just be a case of "Oh nobody is alive on that escape pod..what else would be important enough to jettison? aha those plans Lord Vader is looking for.. perhaps we should not destroy the escape pod."

Except that they clearly dismiss it as an electrical short.

[LaCroix]

And still, they reported it to their superiors, who reported it up until the top - that's why the search squad was sent down to the planet...

[Anacronian]

It might just be a case of "Oh nobody is alive on that escape pod..what else would be important enough to jettison? aha those plans Lord Vader is looking for.. perhaps we should not destroy the escape pod."

Except that they clearly dismiss it as an electrical short.

That dosen't really matter - The Captain of the Devastator(well the script calls him Captain) must have recived orders telling him that they are not there for destruction but rather to look for clues about the werabouts of the DS plans, So even if they belive that the escape pod is short-circuited it is still a clue - something Lord Vader later agrees with and sends down some stormtroopers to investigate.

[LaCroix]

The reason to attack was to find the stolen plans. So giving orders to not destroy anything that doesn't need to be destroyed would be the reasonable thing to do.

[Borgholio]

Maybe I just read too much into it, but it always came off in my mind that they had blown up escape pods where they DID detect life forms. The plans could easily have been hidden in one of those as well.

[Anacronian]

Maybe I just read too much into it, but it always came off in my mind that they had blown up escape pods where they DID detect life forms. The plans could easily have been hidden in one of those as well.

Now that you say it it could come off like that - though i have nerver thought of it that way.

[SCRawl]

Maybe I just read too much into it, but it always came off in my mind that they had blown up escape pods where they DID detect life forms. The plans could easily have been hidden in one of those as well.

Now that you say it it could come off like that - though i have nerver thought of it that way.

I always had it in my head as Borgholio suggested. The guy even says to the gunner "Hold your fire..." which suggests that SOP was to shoot escape pods with life signs aboard.

It doesn't logically hang together if the goal was to retrieve data, although if the Imperials were to absolutely establish that (a) the plans were not on the Tantive IV, (b) no transmissions were made, and (c) any pods were turned into small chunks immediately upon exiting, then I suppose that that would be conclusive.

The tractor beam would seem to be the logical choice for retrieving any pods (assuming (a) could not be established), but then ANH becomes a fairly short film.

[Lord Revan]

this of course assumes that the captain of the ISD in question knew the details of the operation, for all we know his orders were to capture to the Corellian Corvette with this registry and make sure that none of the rebel agents onboard escape or make transmit anything, with everything else being on a "need to know basis" (which dispite how often it's missused in media is perfectly valid way to distribute information in military ops).