The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-12 06:21pm

Looking at the SW:CL book, the part about the divisions say:

"The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations."

Ironically, the Tipoca-entry also says:

"When Obi-Wan arrives, Tipoca is already primed to deliver 200 000 clone troops, while facilities across the planet are equipped to produce millions more."

Which source had "1 million divisions ready"? Or must that be removed due to mis-communication?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-12 07:20pm

I didn't think minimalists would try to argue with the CW cartoon - rather I imagined they'd declare 'invalid' and move on. The CW cartoon absolutely without question shows full-scale warfare, involving thousands of ships and massive landings of millions of troops. It doesn't show 'bushfire war' conflict: it shows planetary sieges, massive urban assaults, sprawling space battles, and the use of special forces units to assist the advance, not conquer whole planets single-handedly. The ARCs take casualties in the wanked-out, EU *cartoon* - why should we believe they are thousands or millions of times better?

EDIT - troops and SHIPS, dammit.

General Soontir Fel · Post by **General Soontir Fel** » 2006-04-12 08:09pm

VT-16 wrote:Sorry for going off track here, but guess who comes to her rescue on the SW wiki? Oh yes, it's Hodger-time!

GAR article. Fixed twice. (One was because of a Fandalorian erasing "maximalist" material, so he can't take credit alone for that.)

Battle of Muunilinst. He wants us to believe ships of Guri's Stinger' class (Conqueror-class assault ships) can hold troops as well as war-machines (they're 28 meters long, barely above a fighter)!

Those ships aren't to be trifled with. The biggest EU stupidity (even bigger than the 3 million GAR, IMO) comes from the Shadows of the Empire: Evolution comic, where Gury, flying the Stinger, takes out a Star Destroyer. BY HERSELF.

Hot Hands Harry · Post by **Hot Hands Harry** » 2006-04-12 08:39pm

Is it just me, or does it seem like she is using game mechanics to get this 3 million number. I am reading Triple Zero right now (what was I thinking) and just in the first chapter the first thought I had was she played Republic Commando. 4 commandos fighting off swarms of droid with no casualties.

Considering charters from the game are in it. She is using game mechanics much like the X-wing books. So I say we should just treat her stories as Similarly. Basically anything involving First Person Shooting to be off. Which would be almost all of it.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-12 09:09pm

I watched some Clone Wars volume 1 episodes today. In episode 20, there is a shot of Obi-wan from the back, with 17 Acclamators before him. Immediately after that the camera switches to a close up of his face, and I counted 5 more behind him. Various shots of Kit Fisto's fleet at Mon Calamari showed 7, 8, or 9 ships; I'll be conservative and assume that these were all the same ships, so that's 9 more. The number of Acclamators at Hypori were harder to count, since they were all wrecked. However, I was able to make out 6 or 7 of them. So, with a very limited view of 3 battles, you can already count 38 separate Acclamators, enough to carry 608,000 clones. This is also leaving out Mace Windu's sizable forces on Dantooine.

3 battles, and greater than half of the Republic's supposed 1.2 million original clones are already more than accounted for. Hypori and Dantooine resulted in complete losses. 1.2 (or 3, whatever stupidly small number) million crack troops killing hundreds of droids each my ass.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-04-13 01:19am

what's funny is that accoridng to WOTC, the Republic ordered 1000 Acclamators after Geonosis (IIRC), which suggests they had some 16 million other troops either on hand or close to ready to fill up all those ships.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-04-13 01:26am

Didn't the beginning of Hard Contact suggest that the Geonosis battle inflicted some 50% casualties on the Republic Forces? And that was against a less than 10:1 ratio (something like 6:1 IIRC, since there were like 1.2 million battle droids total.)

This also echoes with the "relative capabilities" suggested in the AOTC novelization.

When you look at those facts, the odds don't really make sense, even if one assumed only "hundreds of millions" of droids.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-04-13 01:31am

Gents, those of you that have bought Traviss' books; is there anything in them that contradicts her stance? Or something else we can use against her?

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2006-04-13 01:50am

Lord Poe wrote:Gents, those of you that have bought Traviss' books; is there anything in them that contradicts her stance? Or something else we can use against her?

Sadly it won't even matter, she constantly ret-cons herself, and all her supporters need is one instance of their view to throw out any other contradictions. They've been swarmed with contradicting evidence and numbers but just shrug it off like any non minimalist's author doesn't count in their own special canon view.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-13 01:50am

Her odds never made sense- what I find fascinating is how her mindless apologist drones go from one argument to the other seamlessly- they thought it was reasonable that 3,000,000 clones could stand up to quadrillions of droids, and then when that's changed to hundreds of millions of droids, their position changes with it, as if by magic.

I don't see any need to refer to the EU on this matter. Anyone who's seen the films knows that her line of BS about these uber-clones is total bullshit. Her "brush fire" Clone War claim is even more insulting to the source material and nonsensical. Outer Rim sieges, Republic forces getting pushed out of entire systems, worlds burning, hundreds of thousands dying per day, Grievous responsible for the death of billions, war being fought all over the galaxy, all at once (all this from the RotS novel)- nah, just ignore that. It was really a tickling contest.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-04-13 02:17am

Considering the Clone Wars novels kinda hint at nothing more than conflicts on "hundreds" of worlds, she probably can get away with her interpretation of the facts. She'll be contradicting herself on various other pieces of evidence, but she'll do it anyhow. Its not like she's the first author to ignore evidence when the evidence said something they didn't like.

What's more, if she's smart, she'd play up on the fact that "other nonclone forces played a major role" like the Wookiees on Kashyyyk, the Mon Cals on Mon Calamari, the Utapau forces, etc. Her figures will still be inconsistent and make little sense, but she can still find ways to twist the evidence to suit her purposes.

(Of course, the only "canon" reference to 3 million cl ones is in the Triple Zero novel, and it can be twisted around as much to deprive her of her interpretation..)

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-04-13 02:21am

We should ask Chee on his holocron thread to intervene. Bring up the "Odds" article, then present the movie and novelization and CW toons evidence.

Also, according to the TPM script,

PAN with the cruiser as it heads toward the beautiful green planet of Naboo, which is surrounded by hundreds of Trade Federation battleships.

How many battledroids do the Trade Fed battleships carry? According to ITW of TPM (pg. 5) counts the total population of Naboo at 600 million

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-13 02:25am

My instinct would be against that - especially with it being new material, and the legions of KT fanboys, they'll probably just close ranks. Far better to just attack the figure if it ever becomes an issue and deal with it that way. The SSD length certainly didn't get changed by direct petition, rather, just general outcry.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-13 02:37am

Vympel wrote:My instinct would be against that - especially with it being new material, and the legions of KT fanboys, they'll probably just close ranks. Far better to just attack the figure if it ever becomes an issue and deal with it that way. The SSD length certainly didn't get changed by direct petition, rather, just general outcry.

I agree with that assessment. However, it would've been interesting to see whether or not Chee agrees to the concept that the Clone Wars was a "small scale" conflict with a.o. things a completely uninterested population.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-13 02:46am

Chee has actually said that he doesn't want to deal with specific continuity issues in the Holocron thread, only general questions about the Holocron and canon policy (how canon are game mechanics, how is the holocron organized, etc). Specific questions are supposed to go in the VIP threads. But, like Vympel said, that probably wouldn't be very effective.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-13 02:51am

I hardly ever go to the OS forums, and only to check Chee's Holocron thread. What's the atmosphere like over there? I'm aware of how much of a douchebag Dark Moose and Pablo are, but are the mods and normal users as brainwashed about these small numbers as TF.net is? Would I piss people off if I were to resort to guerilla tactics like saying the portrayal of the clone wars in the movies and books are all wrong, and that we should be seeing nothing but small numbers of l33t clones on special forces missions?

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-04-13 03:02am

Heh. I wonder what Randy Stradley'd have to say about the brush fire war vs. the cataclysmic war. A little while back he said the beginning of Triple Zero irritated him so much he didn't bother reading it before backpedaling and apologizing. And it's known he's not a huge fan of the Del Rey folks.

As for contradictins within Triple Zero itself, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that in that books Acclamators are entirely crewed and commanded by clones (there are even references to clones who are specifically sailors) and that two full Acclamators are diverted from their missions to rescure four stranded commandos.

Other than that, the book presents a view of a Clone War that I noted is surprisingly different than that in other sources-- civilians don't care, only a few hundred worlds are involved, etc. It threw me at the time, but with Traviss's new shenanigans it makes sense.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-04-13 03:05am

Mange the Swede wrote:However, it would've been interesting to see whether or not Chee agrees to the concept that the Clone Wars was a "small scale" conflict with a.o. things a completely uninterested population.

Exactly what is Traviss' exact quote for the above; the CW being a "small scale" conflict? Because we can nip this in the bud immediately. This is the prologue to "Shatterpoint" written by George Lucas:

Prologue

The Clone Wars
by George Lucas

For a thousand years, the Old Republic prospered and grew under the wise
rule of the Senate and the protection of the venerable Jedi Knights. But as
often happens when wealth and power grow beyond all reasonable proportion, an evil fueled by greed arose. The massive organs of commerce mushroomed in power, the Senate became corrupt, and an ambitious senator named Palpatine was voted Supreme Chancellor. Most disturbingly, the Dark Lords of the Sith reappeared, after a thousand years of seeming absence.

In the midst of this turmoil, a separatist movement was formed under the
leadership of the charismatic former Jedi, Count Dooku. By promising an
alternative to the corruption and greed that was rotting the Republic from
within, Dooku was able to persuade thousands of star systems to secede from the Republic. Unbeknownst to most of his followers, Dooku was himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, acting in collusion with his master, Darth Sidious, who, over the years, had struck an unholy alliance with the greater forces of commerce and their private droid armies.

The turning point came when Count Dooku lured the unsuspecting Jedi into a trap on the desolate planet of Geonosis. Having just discovered the
existence of a clone army that had been secretly commissioned for the
Republic ten years earlier, the Jedi were well prepared when they confronted the Separatists on Geonosis. But their victory in that heated battle was pyrric. It would prove to be merely the opening salvo in a war that would spread like fire across the galaxy and engulf thousands of star systems in the legendary Clone Wars.

Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing
threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize
even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent
military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to
command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread periously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.

The Clone Wars raged for three long years, tearing the Republic apart and spawning countless tales of heroism, bravery, treachery, and betrayal as both sides fought to defend their ideals. As dedicated as the Separatists were in their resolve to create a new order to replace the failing Republic, the Jedi were equally determined to preserve the Republic and defeat the Sith, who they understood all too well were the masterminds of the Separatist movement. They still believed in the Republic, still deemed it a Republic worth saving. Their faith, which gave them superhuman strength in the face of mind-boggling power of the enemy, had yet to be shaken.

About two years ago, I asked Chee about Lucas' prologue and wheter it would be considered "C" or "G" canon. His answer:

G. Since we started the Holocron, there is no such thing as Lucas-written C-level material.

So tell Traviss to go fuck herself with her retcon.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-04-13 03:11am

Poe, check your PMs.

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-04-13 03:13am

^Somebody should show show the fools in the Insider 87 thread at TFN what Poe just posted.

Unless they have already seen it and they completely ignore it.

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-13 03:28am

Exactly what is Traviss' exact quote for the above

That would be this load of total bollocks:

It's not a daft figure, though: everyone assumes that the war was fought on every planet all the time for three years solid.

It wasn't. It was small scale, very mobile, spread out and bushfire as much as anything - to keep the Jedi busy and scattered. Palps wasn't stupid.

Folks think WWI or WWII. Wrong style of war for this.

Yet another thing of which she is totally ignorant. Good work Wayne. Already posted on TFN by me in a matter of moments

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-04-13 03:40am

Vympel wrote:Good work Wayne. Already posted on TFN by me in a matter of moments

Burns/Palpatine voice: "EEEXCCCELLENT!"

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-04-13 03:42am

Travis will probably just claim that thousands or tens of thousands of troopers could fight on most battles (or point to cases where smaller scale fights were involved.)

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-04-13 03:46am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Travis will probably just claim that thousands or tens of thousands of troopers could fight on most battles (or point to cases where smaller scale fights were involved.)

I don't care what she claims- she's demonstrated that she'll go to any lengths to avoid admitting an error- but I doubt anyone can read George Lucas' referring to a fire that spread all over the galaxy, the Wars being legendary, the enemy having mind-boggling power, etc etc as somehow being consistent with her made-up-on-the-spot-to-defend-her-ego brushfire bullshit tickling contest.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2006-04-13 03:52am

Vympel you should've bolded the key points, as they are already twisting the Lucas quote.