Project: "EU-fic"

[Admiral Felire]

Wait, I thought that Moffs did have supreme authority in their respectred territories. Thus giving them imperium within their territory. And also, wasn't their a Moff's Council that served a direct Imperial legal function, again granting them some imperial political power.

I could have sworn that they had more power than that and if a grouping of moffs got together and made joint policy than the political power would be considered imperial.

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This thread definitely needs to be separated, its getting really large. Though from my own experience as the administrator of a forum, its not that easy to separate a single thread into more than just two. Though I do not know the functions of this site's systems.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The constitutional convention was required by the Corellian Treaty upon Palpatine's death (Rebel Alliance Sourcebook), they tried to convene one after Endor (during which time they issued an extension on the Corellian Treaty which created the interim Alliance of Free Planets). It stalled so they passed an interim constitution and provisional government. The first provisional administration lasted until just before Thrawn's time, the second provisonal administration lasted until after the recapture of Coruscant after Palpatine's final death, at which point (7 years after Endor), they finally held a convention and drew up the New Republic Common Charter. The Treaty was signed by Pelleaon and the Chief of State of the New Republic 15 years after Endor, and established a normalized relationship with Pelleaon's pocket empire as a foriegn power to the New Republic. Later (in the original canon), a new constitution is ratified forming the Galactic Federation/Galactic Alliance (I prefer to call it the poorly-renamed New Republic) and Pelleaon's pocket Empire was an allied or member state.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wait, I thought that Moffs did have supreme authority in their respectred territories. Thus giving them imperium within their territory. And also, wasn't their a Moff's Council that served a direct Imperial legal function, again granting them some imperial political power.

You're right, but they also depended on external funding and such and they also depended on a large external civil service apparatus. They were also appointed for terms. Some legal gimmick will have to exist to reconfirm their appointments in lieu of the Privy Council and some mechanism to replace ones who die or retire must exist. Not to mention to allow them to interfere of their own accord and to interact with the still nominally semi-sovereign dominions. Not to mention that only the Throne could create new Moffs, technically.

I could have sworn that they had more power than that and if a grouping of moffs got together and made joint policy than the political power would be considered imperial.

A group of Moff Governors getting together certainly cannot create Moffs or renew regional governor appointments. They probably employ some legal fiction.

This thread definitely needs to be separated, its getting really large. Though from my own experience as the administrator of a forum, its not that easy to separate a single thread into more than just two. Though I do not know the functions of this site's systems.

Two would be fine, a founding/recruitment/roll-call/organizational thread left here, and the discussion thread extracted to fanfic.

[Admiral Felire]

Yeah, I know all that. But we are ignoring the Yuuzhan Vong War so there was no reason for us to have the Galactic Alliance.

Thus, my thought that Pelleon's Empire joined as an allied member state of the Galactic Republic during the signing as part of a required deal.

Because, no matter how much I love the Empire, the Republic held all the cards. They had the political power, the military power and they had won. If a major part of the treaty required the Imperial State to join the Republic as an allied member, while also giving up the legal right as galactic government, they would have been forced to give in and sign. No matter how much they would not have wanted to.

By the way, your summing up of the New Republic history is a good one that we should remember and add to the timeline. That we can have have it and so we can know which version of the government is in charge.

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Are you sure that their was term limits, I thought they served till the pissed off the Emperor - in other words for life.

And yeah, two threads would come in handy.

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Oh, I remember what I wanted to say.

For reference, and to aid others that might not have such sources. I pretty much own all of the Star Wars rpg books made by both WEG and WotC. In addition, I own pretty much all of the Star Wars novels. I don't have comics so I cannot use that as reference.

I am posting this so that others can know that if a piece of evidence needs to be get, I do have most of the sources and can look them up.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Thus, my thought that Pelleon's Empire joined as an allied member state of the Galactic Republic during the signing as part of a required deal.

I'm sure the New Republic (if that is its true legal name) would just change it to Galactic Republic after awhile on its own accord without an entirely new constitution. Pelleaon's Empire could join as a member state on its own accord, provided it met Republic standards for membership, whatever those are, I'm sure.

Because, no matter how much I love the Empire, the Republic held all the cards. They had the political power, the military power and they had won. If a major part of the treaty required the Imperial State to join the Republic as an allied member, while also giving up the legal right as galactic government, they would have been forced to give in and sign. No matter how much they would not have wanted to.

Right. I'm sure it was a lot of work even getting the Treaty on the Final Settlement to even call them "the Empire." Of course, I imagine the New Republic set up Pelleaon's Empire to be "the Empire we can work with" and Pelleaon's Empire actually gained membership from other Imperialists who wanted to piggy-back onto a favorable peace settlement and not get left in the dark as pirates and terrorists.

By the way, your summing up of the New Republic history is a good one that we should remember and add to the timeline. That we can have have it and so we can know which version of the government is in charge.

Thank you.

[Darth Raptor]

My guess is that the governors and the armed forces wrote up some legal document investing ostensibly temporary institutions with provisionally exercising the Imperial and Royal Prerogatives and the roles of the HIMG and the Privy Council while the central government was "unavailable" (i.e., no longer existed). These institutions included a large Council of State (the so-called Moff Council) with a Standing Committee for day-to-day business and a Provisional Supreme Commander (Pelleaon) provisionally authorized to the highest grade and charged with coordinating common defense. Some sort of agreement hammers out how they can set up government institutions, probably including a commissioners' council or something taking the place of the Council of Ministers in drafting laws and decrees and running policy portfolios, etc. This is just my idea, anyway.

That's awesome. It always bothered me how Imperial loyalists flocked to his banner with such enthusiasm; up to and including the stormtroopers. Not only does it give the Pellaeon Remnant just enough legitimacy to be plausible, but the shaky, nigh-on nonexistent foundation could make the internal politics of the Second Empire very interesting. Nicely done.

[Admiral Felire]

Here is some organizational things
*The Moff Council survives. And if it didn't the surviving Moffs probably do have the authority to convene a legally recognized meeting place.
*The existence of Moffs allow for legal authority of sector governments. Which is useful. Sector bureaucracies survive.
*The Army and the Navy survive as legal institutions. With proper chain of commands. So does the Stormtrooper Corps (internally). This provides for defense.
*I think its been mentioned that both the Imperial Security Bureau (not the rest of Compnor, just the ISB) and Imperial Intelligence both survive.
*The Imperial bureaucracy at some level survives because it is mentioned (I could swear it) in some of the later books. For example.
*I can also remember reading that the Imperial Capital being on Bastion was a legal situation.

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I kinda like the idea of the Republic forcing Pellaeon into its government as an allied member state during the peace process. It is a sort of "we have won' moment. Pellaeon would do it because I bet the New Republic constittuion has parts that restrict what the central government can do to its member states. And if the Empire is an allied member state then it might enable the other fringe groups to also join knowing that the Republic would not force them to loose what makes them unique.

And yeah, I agree on the part about it probably taking a lot for the Republic to allow them to call themselves 'The Empire." In addition, I also completely agree with you on the point that since Pellaeon's Empire (which I bet people called it but nowhere near where an Imperial could hear) was the legal, recognized Imperial group all other Imperial Groups were forced to join or be considered terrorists, like you said.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The trick is to look for good historical analogues. Is there any case that a subordinate governorate or sub-state component of an empire got cut off from the central government or it was deposed, and how they dealt with the constitutional crisis? The big thing is that Pelleaon signed the treaty for his Empire, which suggests he is head of state or empowered to act as head of state for certain purposes.

[Admiral Felire]

Exactly Illuminatus Primus, exactly. That is the point that I think both us and future historians and legal scholars in the Star Wars universe would use to support the status of Pellaeon's Empire as the official continuation of the Empire. Something had to work and I think that legal fiction was probably very strong and stable.

[Galvatron]

Prequel era needs more Tarkin.

Here's some outside the box thinking:

The Empire was established hundreds of years prior to Episode 1 and has been reigned over by a dynasty of (mostly) benevolent emperors in mutual cooperation with the Imperial Senate for the majority of that time.

The "dark times" began when Emperor Palpatine ascended to the throne and the Jedi--considered by many to be obsolete relics of the Old Republic--began to chafe under his increasingly draconian rule. He's Nero, not Augustus.

Yoda hasn't left Dagobah for many generations and he cannot or he'll die. The planet's abundant life is what sustains him (through the Force). Think Cocoon. He's not a participant in galactic affairs, although he's been routinely visited throughout the centuries by Force-sensitives seeking his tutelage.

[ExarKun]

However this pans out, the Jedi should be massively powered down compared to prequels. Vader, Luke, and Obi-wan don't come across as that powerful in the OT, even though Vader and Luke are the most powerful ever. Just imagine how weak regular Jedi were.

[Karmic Knight]

However this pans out, the Jedi should be massively powered down compared to prequels. Vader, Luke, and Obi-wan don't come across as that powerful in the OT, even though Vader and Luke are the most powerful ever. Just imagine how weak regular Jedi were.

Why would the jedi need to be "powered down?" The ones shown in the OT were a broken(literally and figuratively) man, a squire, and an old man who was out of practise. That is not a good statistical survey for the Jedi. While I don't agree with the ridiculously over powered video game characters, I do believe that the Jedi being powerful adds to the fantasy feel that the entire series evokes. Obi-Wan describes the Jedi as the defenders of peace and justice in ANH (I think, my memory is fuzzy) which seems impossible if they were just slightly more powerful than the average citizen.

Oh and if you want to see power in the OT, Luke causes multiple objects to orbit his body, while keeping himself upright on one arm, concentrating on all those tasks while at the same time engaging Yoda in a discussion (again if I remember right). Yoda effortlessly lifting Luke "most powerful ever" Skywalker's X-Wing from the swamp. Vader taking a damaged fighter craft and making it back to Civilization. Causing a proton torpedo to hit the exact spot needed to kill a giant battlestation. Obi-Wan talking to Luke from beyond the grave multiple times.

[Admiral Felire]

I don't think we should throw out things that much. Nor do I think that the Empire should have existed before Palpatine - he made the Empire. He birthed it, created it, established it, and bent the galaxy to his knees. To do otherwise would be meaningless.

I also don't think we need to reduce the power of the Galactic Republic Jedi. At no point in the OT movies do the Force Users we see need to use the sorts of power that they had in the PT. At least not in the movies. In the other parts beyond that, yeah, I am all for making more powers exist.

On the issue of Jedi I completely agree with Karmic Knight.

I do agree with the more Tarkin. That man is a political genius and should not come out of nowhere.

I also disagree (at least when it comes to this EU FIc project) with the Yoda idea. He should have been on the Jedi Council and then left the moment Palpatine began his purge.

[Galvatron]

Are we ignoring the prequels here or what?

[Darth Raptor]

Are we ignoring the prequels here or what?

Yes, but we're keeping the general plot of everything in the EU up to (but not including) the NJO largely intact. Even the OT novelizations and radio dramas make an old Empire problematic. It was all hashed out earlier in this very thread.

[Galvatron]

Ah, okay. Ignore everything I just posted then.

[Admiral Felire]

Galvatron

Your ideas are very much wanted and are quite useful.

It just that in this case the majority wants to keep with as much as they can of the Prequel time frame as they can.

But if your interested in coming up with huge changes and all that then feel free to contribute in the EU Fic: Second Galactic Empire thread. It allows for thoughts and ideas that do not have direct basis in what we saw on screen.

This goes for anybody as well.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The prequels are not canon, but I think the abilities of the Jedi and such and the relationship they have to the content of some characters (especially Palpatine), like the technology and gear, is retained. I want to keep Jedi that can accelerate at 100s G and become wraith-like.

I'm thinking the same way Felire is. Your ideas Galvy might be good for a future Empire concept.

[Galvatron]

I have no problem with the Jedi abilities, but I've always hated the idea of a "Jedi Council."

Can we retcon the age of the ships in this?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Age of what ships? I do think the Jedi should be a knighthood order, so they should have some leadership, but their relationship is more fraternal and ordinal. Its not like the head of a government office or a command officer or something like that (though there will be common Jedi resources and such, and I imagine the management answers to the Jedi "leadership"). Rather their relationship is more feudal and fairy tale-esque; the knights owe fealty to the leadership and both have certain obligations and relationships to each other.

By the way, Galvatron, check out my last post on the 2nd empire thread in Fanfic, let me know how that stacks up next to what you were thinking.

[Admiral Felire]

What ships do you mean?

I also think that there should be some sort of Jedi Council, at least as a centralized meeting body for the Jedi of the Republic. Maybe it won't be as monolithic as the one in canon, but it should exist as a sort of clearing house for information exchange, operational knoweldge, policy dissemination and all that.

[Galvatron]

The OT ships, especially the rebel fighters. The idea of the X-wing as a new design just rubs me the wrong way and always has.

In fact, I don't like the idea that ANY of the OT ships are new. Give me star destroyers that are OLD like the battlestars of oBSG or the Zentradi warships of SDF Macross.

And I don't see why the Jedi can't commune via the Force or even by holonet. Do they NEED a temple in the galactic capital? I prefer Jedi that lead simple lives by CHOICE when not serving as the guardians of peace and justice.

[Illuminatus Primus]

They'll need some kind of central office for the secular and mundane management - paying for and operating training centers, providing starships, providing archival information storage, and they need a means to direct "galaxy-wide" policy and they need some means to appoint representatives and liaisons to the secular government (they can't be part of some Jedi Force link).

[Galvatron]

But why do they need all of that? Are we adhering to the concept of the Jedi as Templars?

Or can we disregard that entirely and view them more as Zen-like warrior monks who serve only when needed?

[Admiral Felire]

I have no problem with the idea of the Clone Wars and its aftermath causing new starship designs to come about. Now I am not saying that the ISD came out after the Empire arose, but there is nothing wrong with it being a new design based on Clone Wars activity.

I also think that we should keep the central facility on Coruscant. I think it makes sense as one of those things we do not change.

I say the Jedi are Zen-like Warrior Templar Monks. They can be many things, all united under one category. I have no problem with the general feel of the Old Republic Jedi and do not think they need to be changed in a broad sense.

They serve as they wish, traveling the galaxy solving problems , working as diplomats, trouble shooters and the like. I also like the idea of their training being very monkish in the sense of exacting physical and mental control and all that.