The **** Official **** Stardestroyer Thread

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Post by Vympel »

Commander LeoRo wrote:
Well, Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Space-faring navies probably have different nomenclature conventions.
Absurd. It was written by people in the real world.
Talk about a red herring. We are not talking about historical documents here.
That's exactly what we're talking about. Any theory that leads to throwing out of available data is inferior. One does not throw out a source if aspects are inaccurate- only those aspects which are inaccurate are thrown out.
Your only reasoning behind calling Imperial-Class rebel slang is based on the personal opinion of Saxton. Hm... Last time I heard anything about canon policy Saxton's opinion weren't listed as having any official status. If you are going to use Imperator as your personal preference that doesn't bother me. If you are going to try to say Imperial-Class is slang and not the official name of the Star Destroyers you are way out of line. You have ZERO evidence to support that. I don't care what Saxton thinks about that. His opinion doesn't mean squat. Maybe he will do the EP III ICS and mention that Imperator is the proper term. If GL allows him to do that then the situation would be different. As it stands you have nothing to go on. You are using really bad blueprints and you are doing a whole lot of unreasonable rationalizing.
Unreasonable rationalizing? No, inventing a new type of Star Destroyer out of nothing is far more reasonable :roll:
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Vympel wrote:
Commander LeoRo wrote:
Well, Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Space-faring navies probably have different nomenclature conventions.
Absurd. It was written by people in the real world.


The Star Wars galaxy is not the milky way nor does it have to rely on naming conventions derived from on Earth.
Talk about a red herring. We are not talking about historical documents here.
That's exactly what we're talking about. Any theory that leads to throwing out of available data is inferior. One does not throw out a source if aspects are inaccurate- only those aspects which are inaccurate are thrown out.
If you want to compare historical data to the EU that is fine. In fact, that would only hurt your case. What do you think historian's do when they find out that a source they were using is no longer correct? What do you think they would do if they found a historical text or many historical texts that prove a previous text as being inaccurate? Or, what do you think they would do if they found new information that allowed to more properly examine a historical event? I can tell you what they would do. They would modify the existing story or thesis. You see, when new information comes in you have to override incorrect data and use the correct data. The EU has provided newer information that shows the Star Destroyers are actually called Imperial-Class Star Destroyers. They do not say that is rebel slang. You still have not addressed that point yet anyways.

Information that is found in multiple sources is generally considered to be more authorizative than information found in only one source. Especially if that source is questionable.

The most reasonable way to rationalize the Mandel blueprints is to accept it as representing a smaller class of Star Destroyer. Perhaps it represents a prototype Star Destroyer that was called Imperator? You Vympel, are the one who is throwing out information by calling Imperial-Class slang. You are twisting the EU evidence to fit your own personal viewpoint of the Star Wars galaxy.
Your only reasoning behind calling Imperial-Class rebel slang is based on the personal opinion of Saxton. Hm... Last time I heard anything about canon policy Saxton's opinion weren't listed as having any official status. If you are going to use Imperator as your personal preference that doesn't bother me. If you are going to try to say Imperial-Class is slang and not the official name of the Star Destroyers you are way out of line. You have ZERO evidence to support that. I don't care what Saxton thinks about that. His opinion doesn't mean squat. Maybe he will do the EP III ICS and mention that Imperator is the proper term. If GL allows him to do that then the situation would be different. As it stands you have nothing to go on. You are using really bad blueprints and you are doing a whole lot of unreasonable rationalizing.
Unreasonable rationalizing? No, inventing a new type of Star Destroyer out of nothing is far more reasonable :roll:
Where is the proof that Imperial-Class is rebel slang? If you have it I am willing to change my position.
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I accidentally placed my statements in the quote box. You can't miss them, Vympel.
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Post by Vympel »

"The Star Wars galaxy is not the milky way nor does it have to rely on naming conventions derived from on Earth."
Incorrect. It is translated for our understanding. If the naming conventions aren't the same, explain the following:

Acclamator-class
Procurator-class
Mandator-class
Executor-class
Assassin-class
Nebulon-B class

etc etc etc. Obviously the naming convetions are derived from Earth. Imperial is the odd one out, not the norm.

If you want to compare historical data to the EU that is fine. In fact, that would only hurt your case. What do you think historian's do when they find out that a source they were using is no longer correct? What do you think they would do if they found a historical text or many historical texts that prove a previous text as being inaccurate? Or, what do you think they would do if they found new information that allowed to more properly examine a historical event? I can tell you what they would do. They would modify the existing story or thesis. You see, when new information comes in you have to override incorrect data and use the correct data. The EU has provided newer information that shows the Star Destroyers are actually called Imperial-Class Star Destroyers. They do not say that is rebel slang. You still have not addressed that point yet anyways.
Incorrect. You are using your conclusion as a premise: "a source they were using is no longer correct" you haven't shown that; indeed that's what we're arguing about isn't it? You keep dodging the point that official is official- numbers don't enter into it. You must deal with the source. There is also no new source overriding old source in the EU- provide your source for this principle or drop it.
Information that is found in multiple sources is generally considered to be more authorizative than information found in only one source. Especially if that source is questionable.
Provide evidence for your contention that the EU operates on a numbers of sources rule. There is no such evidence. To maintain continuity, every single source must be used to its fullest extent, not thrown out entirely- which you keep arguing for. Nothing contradicts Imperator-class in canon, it is JUST AS OFFICIAL as Imperial-class.
The most reasonable way to rationalize the Mandel blueprints is to accept it as representing a smaller class of Star Destroyer. Perhaps it represents a prototype Star Destroyer that was called Imperator? You Vympel, are the one who is throwing out information by calling Imperial-Class slang. You are twisting the EU evidence to fit your own personal viewpoint of the Star Wars galaxy.
No way. To demonstrate the flaw in your reasoning: in the LucasArts games there are Imperial Star Destroyers that are undersized, slow, underarmed, and depicted in general very inaccurately. Remember that they are official. As such, do we invent a new ISD class that is small, slow, underarmed, and depicted inaccurately, or do we use common sense and realize that they are supposed to be ISDs?

Imperial-class is not being thrown out. It is being accepted as another form of terminology- and fits in perfectly with the well known New Republic bias in many EU sources. By arguing that Imperator is illegitimate and applies to an SD that you want to make up on the spot- you are throwing it out.
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Post by Vympel »

Here's a little something about inaccurate EU sources:

"The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."
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Post by Vympel »

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Vympel wrote:"The Star Wars galaxy is not the milky way nor does it have to rely on naming conventions derived from on Earth."

Incorrect. It is translated for our understanding. If the naming conventions aren't the same, explain the following:

Acclamator-class
Procurator-class
Mandator-class
Executor-class
Assassin-class
Nebulon-B class

etc etc etc. Obviously the naming convetions are derived from Earth. Imperial is the odd one out, not the norm.
I don't see how Nubulon-B fits with those other class names, however, I agree that Imperator would fit with the class names you mentioned. I agree Imperator sounds better, but there isn't enough justification for saying Imperial-Class is slang. I stated that the Star Wars galaxy does not have to rely on Earth naming conventions. It doesn't still doesn't have to.

If you want to compare historical data to the EU that is fine. In fact, that would only hurt your case. What do you think historian's do when they find out that a source they were using is no longer correct? What do you think they would do if they found a historical text or many historical texts that prove a previous text as being inaccurate? Or, what do you think they would do if they found new information that allowed to more properly examine a historical event? I can tell you what they would do. They would modify the existing story or thesis. You see, when new information comes in you have to override incorrect data and use the correct data. The EU has provided newer information that shows the Star Destroyers are actually called Imperial-Class Star Destroyers. They do not say that is rebel slang. You still have not addressed that point yet anyways.
Incorrect. You are using your conclusion as a premise: "a source they were using is no longer correct" you haven't shown that; indeed that's what we're arguing about isn't it? You keep dodging the point that official is official- numbers don't enter into it. You must deal with the source. There is also no new source overriding old source in the EU- provide your source for this principle or drop it.
You are the one who brought up the historical documents issue. I was just explaining that in history documents are looked at in that manner. There are always arguments though because some people still stick with information that has been proven false or unreliable. Prove that the Mandel blueprints have the authority to override all of thee evidence that says Imperial-Class. You have the burden of proof in this argument. It is well known that Imperial-Class is the official designation of the Star Destroyers. Multiple sources prove that.


Information that is found in multiple sources is generally considered to be more authorizative than information found in only one source. Especially if that source is questionable.
Provide evidence for your contention that the EU operates on a numbers of sources rule. There is no such evidence. To maintain continuity, every single source must be used to its fullest extent, not thrown out entirely- which you keep arguing for. Nothing contradicts Imperator-class in canon, it is JUST AS OFFICIAL as Imperial-class.
Well, we never hear Imperator Star Destroyers in canon. We only hear Imperial Star Destroyers. There is more justification in canon for Imperial-Class than there is for Imperator-Class. Provide evidence that the Mandel blueprints are more authoritative than all of the other EU sources. You are twisting the EU to fit your viewpoint by saying Imperial-Class is slang. You still have not provided one piece of evidence that Imperial-Class is slang. Do you have evidence or not? If you have it I will accept your viewpoint that Imperator-Class is the official term. I have said before that I like it better anyways. The problem is you have not shown that Imperial-Class is slang. You have the burden of proof.
The most reasonable way to rationalize the Mandel blueprints is to accept it as representing a smaller class of Star Destroyer. Perhaps it represents a prototype Star Destroyer that was called Imperator? You Vympel, are the one who is throwing out information by calling Imperial-Class slang. You are twisting the EU evidence to fit your own personal viewpoint of the Star Wars galaxy.
No way. To demonstrate the flaw in your reasoning: in the LucasArts games there are Imperial Star Destroyers that are undersized, slow, underarmed, and depicted in general very inaccurately. Remember that they are official. As such, do we invent a new ISD class that is small, slow, underarmed, and depicted inaccurately, or do we use common sense and realize that they are supposed to be ISDs?
We realize that they are supposed to be ISD's but we cannot accept any of their statistics etc... Suspension of disbelief is in play there. This doesn't support your Imperator argument though.
Imperial-class is not being thrown out. It is being accepted as another form of terminology- and fits in perfectly with the well known New Republic bias in many EU sources. By arguing that Imperator is illegitimate and applies to an SD that you want to make up on the spot- you are throwing it out.
Prove that there is a NR bias in the EU that affects why Imperial-Class instead of Imperator-Class is used. The Mandel blueprints are inaccurate and they do not represent the Star Destroyers we saw in the movies. However, if there were no other sources that called Star Destroyers Imperial-Class I would agree with you that Imperator-Class is the correct designation for the Star Destroyers. There are several sources, including Starwars.com that say Imperial-Class is the true designation. Instead of just throwing out Imperator-Class I chose to agree that there is another class of Star Destroyer that has that name. That is more reasonable than calling Imperial-Class slang.

Just show me some evidence, besides opinions, that Imperial-Class is slang. If you do that I will agree with you.
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Post by The Dark »

Just a few small points/questions.

One: In the movies, do Imperial officers ever refer to an ISD as an Imperial or Imperial-class Star Destroyer? Do Rebels ever refer to it as Imperial-class?

Two: On Starwars.com, the Executor reference is the ONLY place that mentions an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. The ISD page says Imperial Star Destroyer, not Imperial-class. I'm not sure what to make of this, but it seems unusual not to refer to a ship by class on its own page.

Three: While the blueprint from Mandel is inaacurate, it obviously does resemble a Star Destroyer, and definitely not a Victory-class. It may have been done from an early model, possibly one not used in the final filming.

Four: Since we are supposed to treat the canon sources as historical documents for the purposes of determining reality within Star Wars (or else it disintegrates into entirely subjective drivel), there must be some reason why one source says Imperator class and another says Imperial class. (I'm thinking something along the lines of the Thresher-class here). Now, all y'all behave nicely before I have to hunt down an anti-troll flamethrower :twisted: .
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Post by Vympel »

Commander LeoRo wrote:
I don't see how Nubulon-B fits with those other class names, however, I agree that Imperator would fit with the class names you mentioned. I agree Imperator sounds better, but there isn't enough justification for saying Imperial-Class is slang. I stated that the Star Wars galaxy does not have to rely on Earth naming conventions. It doesn't still doesn't have to.
But it provides good circumstantial back-up for the slang argument. Imperial is not the norm in Kuat Drive Yards terminology.
You are the one who brought up the historical documents issue. I was just explaining that in history documents are looked at in that manner. There are always arguments though because some people still stick with information that has been proven false or unreliable. Prove that the Mandel blueprints have the authority to override all of thee evidence that says Imperial-Class. You have the burden of proof in this argument. It is well known that Imperial-Class is the official designation of the Star Destroyers. Multiple sources prove that.
I have repeatedly challenged you to provide evidence that there is a multiple source overrides single source rule in the EU- you have failed to provide such evidence and I am NOT going to let you sneak in an EU 'caste system' under my nose. Once again, I challenge you to provide evidence that there are 'classes' of EU. Official is official is official. The burden of proof to show otherwise is on you.
Well, we never hear Imperator Star Destroyers in canon. We only hear Imperial Star Destroyers. There is more justification in canon for Imperial-Class than there is for Imperator-Class. Provide evidence that the Mandel blueprints are more authoritative than all of the other EU sources. You are twisting the EU to fit your viewpoint by saying Imperial-Class is slang. You still have not provided one piece of evidence that Imperial-Class is slang. Do you have evidence or not? If you have it I will accept your viewpoint that Imperator-Class is the official term. I have said before that I like it better anyways. The problem is you have not shown that Imperial-Class is slang. You have the burden of proof.
We hear 'Imperial Star Destroyer' not 'Imperial-class Star Destroyer'. Nowhere in canon is the 'class' mentioned, and in fact in canon we hear nothing but slang: "Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer". Are we to assume that it is Super-class? The evidence that Imperial-class is slang is the following:

- All other class names follow our conventions, Imperial does not
- Imperator follows our conventions; and matches the class name of every other known Kuat Drive Yards ship (Victory-class is Rendili Star Drive, not KDY)
- Neither Imperial-class nor Imperator-class is heard in the films, so there is no canon contradiction
- Imperial class is easier to say in battle, in X-Wing Alliance an ISD2 is called 'Imperial-deuce' in the heat of battle (also official). Modern tankers, if they spot a Soviet BMP in battle, do not say B-M-P: they say BIMP.
Provide evidence that the Mandel blueprints are more authoritative than all of the other EU sources
Provide evidence for a numbers of sources rule in the EU, or drop it. AGAIN, there is NO EU caste system.
We realize that they are supposed to be ISD's but we cannot accept any of their statistics etc... Suspension of disbelief is in play there. This doesn't support your Imperator argument though.
How does it not? The evidence is overwhelming that the Mandel blueprints are supposed to be ISDs, we simply don't accept the technical statisics because we CANONICALLY know them to be bigger. Imperator-class is not contradicted by canon; so it stands.
Prove that there is a NR bias in the EU that affects why Imperial-Class instead of Imperator-Class is used. The Mandel blueprints are inaccurate and they do not represent the Star Destroyers we saw in the movies. However, if there were no other sources that called Star Destroyers Imperial-Class I would agree with you that Imperator-Class is the correct designation for the Star Destroyers. There are several sources, including Starwars.com that say Imperial-Class is the true designation. Instead of just throwing out Imperator-Class I chose to agree that there is another class of Star Destroyer that has that name. That is more reasonable than calling Imperial-Class slang.
1: All EU material is told from a New Republic heroic perspective
2: The E-Web is described in EU material as taking 15 minutes to set up. Oh really? I saw Snowtroopers set one up on Hoth in the space of 5 seconds!

For the last time- provide evidence for your assertion that there is a numbers of sources rule in the EU. You can't, because there are no classes of EU. One is as authorative as the other, and you must rationalize them. Inventing a new ship out of nothing is not more reasonable- as I recognize that both of the designations apply to the ISD we see in the films, and there's no reason to introduce a new term: if inventing a new ship to suit your personal viewpoint of SW isn't unreasonable, I don't know what is. I'm saying both terms can be applied to an ISD.
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The Dark wrote:Just a few small points/questions.

One: In the movies, do Imperial officers ever refer to an ISD as an Imperial or Imperial-class Star Destroyer? Do Rebels ever refer to it as Imperial-class?
Nope. Imperial officers never refer to their own vessels IIRC, and the Rebels never say anything. In fact, C-3PO says Imperial Star Destroyer once, and that's it. Ackbar calls the Executor-class a 'Super Star Destroyer': more back-up for the Rebel slang argument.
Two: On Starwars.com, the Executor reference is the ONLY place that mentions an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. The ISD page says Imperial Star Destroyer, not Imperial-class. I'm not sure what to make of this, but it seems unusual not to refer to a ship by class on its own page.
Interesting.
Three: While the blueprint from Mandel is inaacurate, it obviously does resemble a Star Destroyer, and definitely not a Victory-class. It may have been done from an early model, possibly one not used in the final filming.
You are correct. It is based on the ISD concept before it was scaled up to 1,600m.
Four: Since we are supposed to treat the canon sources as historical documents for the purposes of determining reality within Star Wars (or else it disintegrates into entirely subjective drivel), there must be some reason why one source says Imperator class and another says Imperial class. (I'm thinking something along the lines of the Thresher-class here). Now, all y'all behave nicely before I have to hunt down an anti-troll flamethrower :twisted: .
Thresher-class? Do tell. I'm the first to admit that Saxton has stacked the deck in favor of his preferred terminology with the Acclamator/Procurator/Mandator reference in the ICS- but it's official with Lucasfilms blessing, so we have to deal with it. The Imperial-slang argument is extremely strong. Imperial-class simply doesn't fit at all.
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Post by The Dark »

The USS Thresher was a nuclear submarine, name boat (submarines are never ships) of the Thresher-class. She was lost at sea during a trial when her pressure hull collapsed. The class was renamed the Sturgeon-class after the second boat produced since it was considered bad luck for the name vessel of a class to be destroyed.
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Post by The Dark »

Sorry, didn't get to my point in the last post:

My point was that it the first ship of the class may have been the Imperator, and for some unknown reason the second was the Imperial (unimaginative bureaucrats?). If the Imperator was destroyed, and if they had similar superstitions to sailors, then the Imperial would then become name-ship of the class. Somewhat farfethced, but possible.
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Bad luck? Hmmm I did not know that! Learn something new every day :)

As I recall, in TIE Fighter the Imperator is under the command of Zaarin. It wasn't destroyed though- this was the mission where the Courageous is ambushed by Zaarin's Star Destroyers the Imperator and Thunderer, IIRC.
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Post by Vympel »

Oh, another example of New Repubic bias- the EU states that AT-ATs are 15m tall. Bullshit. ESB establishes quite obviously that they are in fact about double that.

Or the 8km, then 12.8km Executor versus the 17.6km Executor.
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Vympel wrote:Oh, another example of New Repubic bias- the EU states that AT-ATs are 15m tall. Bullshit. ESB establishes quite obviously that they are in fact about double that.

Or the 8km, then 12.8km Executor versus the 17.6km Executor.
How does this reflect NR bias? It sounds like the statistics were just reported incorrectly. That doesn't constitute NR bias though. The EU says Home One had 29 Turbolasers. Is that reasonable?
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Vympel wrote:
Commander LeoRo wrote:
I don't see how Nubulon-B fits with those other class names, however, I agree that Imperator would fit with the class names you mentioned. I agree Imperator sounds better, but there isn't enough justification for saying Imperial-Class is slang. I stated that the Star Wars galaxy does not have to rely on Earth naming conventions. It doesn't still doesn't have to.

But it provides good circumstantial back-up for the slang argument. Imperial is not the norm in Kuat Drive Yards terminology.
This isn't circumstantial evidence, this is opinion.
You are the one who brought up the historical documents issue. I was just explaining that in history documents are looked at in that manner. There are always arguments though because some people still stick with information that has been proven false or unreliable. Prove that the Mandel blueprints have the authority to override all of thee evidence that says Imperial-Class. You have the burden of proof in this argument. It is well known that Imperial-Class is the official designation of the Star Destroyers. Multiple sources prove that.
I have repeatedly challenged you to provide evidence that there is a multiple source overrides single source rule in the EU- you have failed to provide such evidence and I am NOT going to let you sneak in an EU 'caste system' under my nose. Once again, I challenge you to provide evidence that there are 'classes' of EU. Official is official is official. The burden of proof to show otherwise is on you.
Information that is false can be overruled. I haven't read very many EU novels, so I can't name all of the contradictions that have been overruled by other EU. I'm sure that there are others that use this message board know of some. I'm not going to pretend that I know any, so I can't give you any examples. You still didn't address how one questionable source gives you the authority to override multiple legitimate sources though. That is really the crux of the matter. You can't regulate Imperial-Class to slang without proper justification.
Well, we never hear Imperator Star Destroyers in canon. We only hear Imperial Star Destroyers. There is more justification in canon for Imperial-Class than there is for Imperator-Class. Provide evidence that the Mandel blueprints are more authoritative than all of the other EU sources. You are twisting the EU to fit your viewpoint by saying Imperial-Class is slang. You still have not provided one piece of evidence that Imperial-Class is slang. Do you have evidence or not? If you have it I will accept your viewpoint that Imperator-Class is the official term. I have said before that I like it better anyways. The problem is you have not shown that Imperial-Class is slang. You have the burden of proof.
We hear 'Imperial Star Destroyer' not 'Imperial-class Star Destroyer'. Nowhere in canon is the 'class' mentioned, and in fact in canon we hear nothing but slang: "Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer". Are we to assume that it is Super-class? The evidence that Imperial-class is slang is the following:

This is from StarWars.com:
The Executor was the first of a new generation of immense warships, a Super-class Star Destroyer. Constructed in secret at the starship yards of Fondor, the Executor was a crowning achievement for both the Imperial Navy and Kuat Drive Yards. During the construction phase of its existence, the whole operation was under the command of Admiral Griff.
Apparently the Super Star Destroyers are called Super-Class Star Destroyers. Your analogy doesn't work. That is more evidence against your rebel slang argument.


- All other class names follow our conventions, Imperial does not
Not every ship follows thoughs conventions. Super-Class Star Destroyers don't. Imperial-Class Star Destroyers don't either. Besides, this is isn't enough evidence to prove your point.

- Imperator follows our conventions; and matches the class name of every other known Kuat Drive Yards ship (Victory-class is Rendili Star Drive, not KDY)
That could be the case, however, Kuat doesn't have to name all of its ships in the same manner. The Mandator/Procurator is still speculative at this point anyways. Maybe we will see them in Episode III.

- Neither Imperial-class nor Imperator-class is heard in the films, so there is no canon contradiction
I agree with this assertion. There is no canon contradiction.
- Imperial class is easier to say in battle, in X-Wing Alliance an ISD2 is called 'Imperial-deuce' in the heat of battle (also official). Modern tankers, if they spot a Soviet BMP in battle, do not say B-M-P: they say BIMP.
I don't agree on this point. Saying Imperator and Imperial isn't very different, really. Im-per-a-tor Im-per-i-al is not very different when you are pronouncing it. Imperial-deuce has been stated in official literature? Which novel? That doesn't help your case though.

Provide evidence that the Mandel blueprints are more authoritative than all of the other EU sources
Provide evidence for a numbers of sources rule in the EU, or drop it. AGAIN, there is NO EU caste system.

Multiple agreeing sources just makes more sense. As far as I know, the word "official" has never been placed on the EU anyways. Therefore, there are no "rules" necessarily governing the hierarchy of its information. If that is the case, you should trust the more commonly accepted term.
We realize that they are supposed to be ISD's but we cannot accept any of their statistics etc... Suspension of disbelief is in play there. This doesn't support your Imperator argument though.
How does it not? The evidence is overwhelming that the Mandel blueprints are supposed to be ISDs, we simply don't accept the technical statisics because we CANONICALLY know them to be bigger. Imperator-class is not contradicted by canon; so it stands.
It still doesn't overrule all of the other sources that say Imperial-Class. So, it doesn't stand in the manner that you want it to.

Prove that there is a NR bias in the EU that affects why Imperial-Class instead of Imperator-Class is used. The Mandel blueprints are inaccurate and they do not represent the Star Destroyers we saw in the movies. However, if there were no other sources that called Star Destroyers Imperial-Class I would agree with you that Imperator-Class is the correct designation for the Star Destroyers. There are several sources, including Starwars.com that say Imperial-Class is the true designation. Instead of just throwing out Imperator-Class I chose to agree that there is another class of Star Destroyer that has that name. That is more reasonable than calling Imperial-Class slang.
1: All EU material is told from a New Republic heroic perspective
2: The E-Web is described in EU material as taking 15 minutes to set up. Oh really? I saw Snowtroopers set one up on Hoth in the space of 5 seconds!
This represents NR bias how? Just sounds like really sloppy research. Hm... sounds like the Mandel blueprints.

For the last time- provide evidence for your assertion that there is a numbers of sources rule in the EU. You can't, because there are no classes of EU. One is as authorative as the other, and you must rationalize them. Inventing a new ship out of nothing is not more reasonable- as I recognize that both of the designations apply to the ISD we see in the films, and there's no reason to introduce a new term: if inventing a new ship to suit your personal viewpoint of SW isn't unreasonable, I don't know what is. I'm saying both terms can be applied to an ISD.
Sure, both Imperator and Imperial can be applied to an ISD. That depends on your personal preference though. Almost everything supports Imperial-Class as being the official class name for the Star Destroyer though. Is there an official source that says Imperial-Class is slang? Is there a quote from George Lucas to that effect? Is there any published statement (besides Saxton's opinions) that prove this? Until you have something of that nature your argument doesn't have the proof it needs.
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Post by Vympel »

This isn't circumstantial evidence, this is opinion.
No, it's circumstantial evidence. It doesn't fit. This is not opinion, it is fact.
Information that is false can be overruled. I haven't read very many EU novels, so I can't name all of the contradictions that have been overruled by other EU. I'm sure that there are others that use this message board know of some. I'm not going to pretend that I know any, so I can't give you any examples. You still didn't address how one questionable source gives you the authority to override multiple legitimate sources though. That is really the crux of the matter. You can't regulate Imperial-Class to slang without proper justification.
Multiple legitimate sources? Assuming your conclusion as a premise.
Apparently the Super Star Destroyers are called Super-Class Star Destroyers. Your analogy doesn't work. That is more evidence against your rebel slang argument.
Utter stupidity. Look, it's the first unit of the SSD type, the Super!!! The first unit of the class was the Executor. It is therefore Executor-class. From the same fuckwits who brought you Imperial class :twisted:

Now, back to reasoned argument:

The argument could be made that Super-class denotes the smaller 8km and 12.8km ships that are obviously canonically wrong. However, all the examples of SSDs in the official literature cannot possibly be 8 or 12km. In the same way as the Imperator-class does not denote a smaller ship because of the scaling error, the Super-class does not denote a smaller ship because of the scaling error.

"Lusankya
Mistaken for Executor by its builders; the difference was only discovered some time after the rebel conquest of Coruscant. Drawings in Crimson Empire have hull dimensions and gross cortex features identical to Executor. Therefore Lusankya must be 11 miles long, and belongs to the Executor-class.

Iron Fist/ Razor Kiss Must be the same as each other, in order for Zsinj's misidentification ploy to succeed.

Guardian
Must be 11 miles long, because the published illustration is visually indistinguishable from Executor-class. Visual length scaling based on nearby star destroyers is consistent with a length of 11 miles, and inconsistent with a length of 5 miles.

Terror
Features and proportions are sufficiently similar to Executor for this ship to be placed in the same class.

Intimidator
Described as 8km long but also described as "Executor-class." The latter probably deserves precedence; it should be a 17.6km vessel."

"In the movies, the Executor is only called a "star destroyer" or "super star destroyer" by characters who are under stress. Princess Leia, escaping from Bespin, was exhausted. She was never known as a naval expert anyhow. Similarly Lord Vader was deeply upset when he left Bespin, and it isn't clear whether he meant to signal Executor directly or via a true star destroyer that attended and remained off-camera. Admiral Ackbar, evidently floundering with the human language, called the ship a "super star destroyer" in the heat of battle. Calmer characters call it a "command ship," [Solo approaching Endor; Palpatine giving orders to Vader]. C-3PO [in Classic STAR WARS] says that it looks like an oversized "battlecruiser." Executor's mass and power are orders of magnitude beyond a mere destroyer. Therefore the term "super star destroyer" can only be slang, and the term "Super-class" is a corruption of slang.

There can only be a Super-class if the design's prime vessel is actually named Super. In principle there could exist a class of five- or eight-mile warships with a first member named Super, but this class would not include the Executor and it would still be inappropriate to label such ships as "destroyers."

The colloquial term "super star destroyer"should be avoided. This is not mere pedantry; the term is actually misleading. In addition to its connection with the confusion over Executor's length, the term is also applied to some vessels which clearly belong to different classes: eg. Allegiance and Eclipse in Dark Empire, which only share little more than the distinction of being slightly or greatly bigger than one-mile destroyers."
Not every ship follows thoughs conventions. Super-Class Star Destroyers don't. Imperial-Class Star Destroyers don't either. Besides, this is isn't enough evidence to prove your point.
Acclamator
Procurator
Mandator
Nebulon-B
Assassin
Victory
Carrack
Lancer

Imperial is the exception. It is not just KDY terminology- it is common sense. It is the same as calling a ship the American, the British or the Russian.
That could be the case, however, Kuat doesn't have to name all of its ships in the same manner. The Mandator/Procurator is still speculative at this point anyways. Maybe we will see them in Episode III.
No, Procurator and Mandator are official, not speculative. They're in the ICS. They exist.
I don't agree on this point. Saying Imperator and Imperial isn't very different, really. Im-per-a-tor Im-per-i-al is not very different when you are pronouncing it. Imperial-deuce has been stated in official literature? Which novel? That doesn't help your case though.
It's stated in X-Wing Alliance, which is official.
Multiple agreeing sources just makes more sense. As far as I know, the word "official" has never been placed on the EU anyways. Therefore, there are no "rules" necessarily governing the hierarchy of its information. If that is the case, you should trust the more commonly accepted term.
The EU has been called quasi-cannon, official, whatever. It's besides the point. There is no heirarchy. The only heirarchy is

Canon (films, scripts, radio dramas, novels)
EU.

There is no sub-EU heirarchy. Why should I trust the more commonly accepted term? The Mandel blueprints are BLUEPRINTS. They have Palpatine's NAME on them! I'm gonna trust what Rebels say in combat instead?
It still doesn't overrule all of the other sources that say Imperial-Class. So, it doesn't stand in the manner that you want it to.
Again, you use the word overrule :roll: There is no overuling. Imperial is most likely slang.
This represents NR bias how? Just sounds like really sloppy research. Hm... sounds like the Mandel blueprints
Irrelevant. It is obviously an ISD, even though the scale is wrong. In the same way that the WEG Executor is obviously the Executor, even though the scale is wrong and it doesn't even have the same number of engines IIRC. You only throw out the aspects of the source that necessarily follow (like weapon and crew numbers) from the error, not the entire source.
Sure, both Imperator and Imperial can be applied to an ISD. That depends on your personal preference though. Almost everything supports Imperial-Class as being the official class name for the Star Destroyer though. Is there an official source that says Imperial-Class is slang? Is there a quote from George Lucas to that effect? Is there any published statement (besides Saxton's opinions) that prove this? Until you have something of that nature your argument doesn't have the proof it needs.
No heirarchy. Imperator and Imperial are of equal standing. Evidence leads to Imperial being slang. No official statement as such.
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Post by Super-Gagme »

I understand that most (if not all as I am not an expert) ships in real history have Class names based on the first ship built. Does that mean it is impossible for Star Wars to not follow this convention? Whats peoples opinions on this? If there are references to say Super-Class (yeah I like Executor more) but none to Executor-Class then why does everyone have to fall back on Earth class names and say Super is wrong? Not to mention that Star Wars doesn't take place in our Galaxy so maybe Lucas wanted it to be different? Maybe it was his intention.
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Post by Vympel »

Super-Gagme wrote:I understand that most (if not all as I am not an expert) ships in real history have Class names based on the first ship built. Does that mean it is impossible for Star Wars to not follow this convention? Whats peoples opinions on this? If there are references to say Super-Class (yeah I like Executor more) but none to Executor-Class then why does everyone have to fall back on Earth class names and say Super is wrong? Not to mention that Star Wars doesn't take place in our Galaxy so maybe Lucas wanted it to be different? Maybe it was his intention.
Lucas said nothing about Super-class. The only thing he contributed was the colloquial 'Super Star Destroyer'. The name Executor is canon- it is in the ROTJ novel IIRC (I may be wrong). Official sources all agree it was the first of class. Hence, Executor-class. Super-class requires that the first vessel be called Super. It is therefore wrong.
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Vympel wrote:
Super-Gagme wrote:I understand that most (if not all as I am not an expert) ships in real history have Class names based on the first ship built. Does that mean it is impossible for Star Wars to not follow this convention? Whats peoples opinions on this? If there are references to say Super-Class (yeah I like Executor more) but none to Executor-Class then why does everyone have to fall back on Earth class names and say Super is wrong? Not to mention that Star Wars doesn't take place in our Galaxy so maybe Lucas wanted it to be different? Maybe it was his intention.
Lucas said nothing about Super-class. The only thing he contributed was the colloquial 'Super Star Destroyer'. The name Executor is canon- it is in the ROTJ novel IIRC (I may be wrong). Official sources all agree it was the first of class. Hence, Executor-class. Super-class requires that the first vessel be called Super. It is therefore wrong.
If this were an Earth ship I would agree with you Vympel, however, this is not. Is there a source that specifically says "Executor Class" besides Saxton's Technical Commentaries? If that is the case I'll agree with you on this issue as well. Starwars.com (which is official) states Super-Class Star Destroyer. I know it sounds goofy, but that is the official source, deal with it unless you have some proof.
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Vympel,

I will respond in greater detail to your new posts when I get the chance today. For now, I will just say that you have not shown that Imperial-Class is slang. You have stated opinions to that, but you have not provided a single piece of evidence that I asked for to prove your assertion. Your only piece of evidence is that the rebels say Imperial or Super in the heat of battle and so that makes their statements unreliable. Vader even said Super Star Destroyer, yet that is unreliable as well. You are twisting canon to fit your view of Star Wars, which is not necessarily true.

Is there not a quote or statement from an official or canon source that says Imperial-Class is slang?? Is there an official or canon source that specifically says Super-Class Star Destroyer is slang?? Until you have that evidence you have no case. All of your other assertions on the matter don't mean anything without some simple hard evidence.
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Post by Sardaukar »

Commander LeoRo wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Super-Gagme wrote:I understand that most (if not all as I am not an expert) ships in real history have Class names based on the first ship built. Does that mean it is impossible for Star Wars to not follow this convention? Whats peoples opinions on this? If there are references to say Super-Class (yeah I like Executor more) but none to Executor-Class then why does everyone have to fall back on Earth class names and say Super is wrong? Not to mention that Star Wars doesn't take place in our Galaxy so maybe Lucas wanted it to be different? Maybe it was his intention.
Lucas said nothing about Super-class. The only thing he contributed was the colloquial 'Super Star Destroyer'. The name Executor is canon- it is in the ROTJ novel IIRC (I may be wrong). Official sources all agree it was the first of class. Hence, Executor-class. Super-class requires that the first vessel be called Super. It is therefore wrong.
If this were an Earth ship I would agree with you Vympel, however, this is not. Is there a source that specifically says "Executor Class" besides Saxton's Technical Commentaries? If that is the case I'll agree with you on this issue as well. Starwars.com (which is official) states Super-Class Star Destroyer. I know it sounds goofy, but that is the official source, deal with it unless you have some proof.
Not all SW ship classes are named after the first ship. The first Defender(?)-Class Star Destroyer, a New Republic design, was called "Obi-Wan". It is easier to rationalise the whole situation by saying that in SW, they do not always name the class after the first ship.
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Post by Vympel »

W00T! :) There is an official Executor-class reference actually: Intimidator
Described as 8km long but also described as "Executor-class." Phew. Thank God.

With the Allegiance and Eclipse also called Super Star Destroyers in Dark Empire- and their only commonality being that they're bigger than an ISD, I think the evidence is firmly against Super-class being anything but slang.

LeoRo, I do understand where you're coming from- we have a fundamentally different approach. To be honest I don't have much respect for the quality of the official literature- much of it is clearly retarded (Super-class? Honestly!!!!) though a diamond does appear out of the MUD sometimes (every ICS, Zahn trilogy, TIE Defender etc)

In the end, I'll just say this-

Imperator-class appears in an official document. It is inaccurate in terms of scale, which is the same mistake WEG made- and the 8km SSD is a mistake that is still common to this day. This is no reason to create a new 8km SSD class- and every SSD in the official literature- as Saxton demonstrated- is almost certainly Executor-class. In the same way, there is no reason to make up an Imperator-class because of scale errors. As first-generation material created from Lucasfilm archives (a one-up over the second-generation source material) Imperator is just as official as the second-generation sources. In addition, Imperator-class is not an abuse of naval nomenclature, and furthermore, is not an abuse of KDY naming practices. In addition, we have more official evidence of the existence of a ship called the Imperator in TIE Fighter.

A word on nomenclature:

When I say naval nomenclature I mean two things:

- The practice by which the class name comes from the first ship of class
- The practice by which ships are not called "American-class" "German-class" or "Russian-class". Ships are called things like "Peter the Great", "Intimidator" and "Avenger".

By KDY nomenclature I mean:

Acclamator
Procurator
Mandator
Executor

Some EU writers are clearly retarded. If Ackbar had said "concentrate all firepower on that big star destroyer" you can imagine the EU:

"The Big-class Star Destroyer ..." Retards.

Now Imperial-class: appears in all sources. However, Imperator also exists, and since once source can't be thrown out, I and many others think that Imperial should be relegated to slang- seeing how Imperator makes more sense. There is no official PROOF that it is slang, but the contradiction exists, and should be rationalized.
Not all SW ship classes are named after the first ship. The first Defender (?)-Class Star Destroyer, a New Republic design, was called "Obi-Wan" . It is easier to rationalise the whole situation by saying that in SW, they do not always name the class after the first ship.
Is Defender(?)-class definite? Second, are you sure the first unit was called 'Obi-Wan'? Either way, I think I've shown that the evidence is against Super-class.
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Post by Vympel »

Commander LeoRo wrote:Vympel,

Your only piece of evidence is that the rebels say Imperial or Super in the heat of battle and so that makes their statements unreliable.
C-3PO says 'Imperial Star Destroyer'. He does not say Imperial-class. I was not aware an effeminate protocol droid that didn't even use the words you wanted him to was a naval expert :)
Vader even said Super Star Destroyer, yet that is unreliable as well. You are twisting canon to fit your view of Star Wars, which is not necessarily true.
Incorrect. Vader says: "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival." No Super. I have not twisted canon at all. Canon says nothing about it.
Is there not a quote or statement from an official or canon source that says Imperial-Class is slang?? Is there an official or canon source that specifically says Super-Class Star Destroyer is slang?? Until you have that evidence you have no case. All of your other assertions on the matter don't mean anything without some simple hard evidence.
Yet the contradiction exists, and must be rationalized. You have refused all attempts of rationalization by point to the irrelevant standard of official 'proof' and trying to invent a new ship out of nothing- which is absurd. It's not done for the SSD, why should it be done for an ISD? A scale error doth not a new ship make :)
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Post by Sardaukar »

Vympel wrote:W00T! :) There is an official Executor-class reference actually: Intimidator
Described as 8km long but also described as "Executor-class." Phew. Thank God.
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