"Is the Dark Side stronger?"

[Havok]

"Is the Dark Side stronger?"
"No. No, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

Yoda doesn't say that the Light Side is stronger either, just that the Dark Side isn't.

[freker]

the dark side is stronger because dark side users use it while not taking regard of others. light side users are reluctant to harm other beeings.

considder the force as a gun, light side users tend to shoot warning shot while dark side users shoot to kill, which is stronger?

[Ghost Rider]

the dark side is stronger because dark side users use it while not taking regard of others. light side users are reluctant to harm other beeings.

considder the force as a gun, light side users tend to shoot warning shot while dark side users shoot to kill, which is stronger?

You do understand that analogy actually shows the flaw in your logic...since you equate the Force as a gun and the user's morals as light and dark.

The gun remains the same, the only difference you've presented is one side has less care of it's use.

[Guardsman Bass]

The Dark Side seems to give the user more power, and easier, but not necessarily stronger in the long run.

[Stark]

Since force-use is coloured by the mentality of the user, it's clear why dark side precog gets blindsided all the time. Maybe Palps got visions of his stupid plan failing and his death, but he just rationalised them away as 'warnings' or whatever. Because he's staggeringly arrogant and selfish.

[Ghost Rider]

Since force-use is coloured by the mentality of the user, it's clear why dark side precog gets blindsided all the time. Maybe Palps got visions of his stupid plan failing and his death, but he just rationalised them away as 'warnings' or whatever. Because he's staggeringly arrogant and selfish.

There's been various bits of literature(Publius can fill in here much better) that Palpatine confered with others, and knew that Endor had the possibilty of ending poorly, but went fuck it.

In fact it states he was so arrogant that when anyone tried to warn him, he just shooed them off and was confident that Vader would never betry him. Interestingly this would be something that does follow canon quite closely in that Palpatine put an enormous amount of trust into Vader, above and beyond what one could consider wise or prudent.

[Publius]

Darth Sidious had supreme confidence in his control over Darth Vader. In Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu realized that Sidious wasn't afraid at all, because there was not the least bit of doubt in his mind that Skywalker would save him (in fact, Windu recognized that this was Sidious's only vulnerability, his 'shatterpoint'). He repeatedly exposed himself to mortal danger (on board Invisible Hand, in his office, and finally on board the second Death Star), each time putting full faith in Skywalker's/Vader's ability and fidelity.

Ghost Rider is correct, the Galactic Emperor's advisors among the Prophets of the Dark Side did warn him against proceeding with the plot at Endor. In The Dark Side Sourcebook, Kadann "looked deep into the dark side prior to the Battle of Endor [...] saw a myriad of possibilities," and "one of the strongest was the return of balance to the Force and the end of the Empire," but "the Emperor dismissed his warnings, for he had not seen anything of the sort during his own meditations." In fact, he "refused to acknowledge any prediction that revealed less than total victory for the Empire," and "whether he saw such revelations during his own meditations, or if his military advisors offered scenarios in which the Rebellion attained the upper hand, he dismissed such dire predictions," preferring to "hold onto the whispers and urgings of the dark side that assured him that he would crush the Rebellion and corrupt young Luke Skywalker."

Not only did the Galactic Emperor laugh in the Supreme Prophet's face when he warned him of the possible disaster at Endor, but "Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties" mentions that "when Supreme Prophet Kadann adamantly disagreed with Palpatine concerning a guaranteed Imperial victory at Endor, Palpatine sent his Inquisitors to Dromund Kaas to reeducate Kadann's priesthood, causing the ecclesiastics to take flight to the secluded planet Bosthirda."

Notably, however, there is no mention that the Prophets or anyone else thought Vader might have betrayed him. The Supreme Prophet refers to the balance of the Force, but that is not terribly specific, and also presupposes that one put credence in a Jedi prophecy (the Supreme Prophet was formerly a Jedi Master, unlike the Galactic Emperor, a lifelong Sith Lord). The Galactic Emperor's track record of success led to overconfidence (unsurprising, considering that a bare handful of sapient beings -- Vader, Jerec, Gethzerion, and perhaps one or two others -- were anywhere near him in terms of power; like Caesar, a man with few peers and no rivals falls prey to overconfidence).

[Stark]

So Palpatine actually never 'saw' any bad results from the Endor plan? That's very interesting. Perhaps he was only seeing what he was looking for.

[Cao Cao]

Sounds like a Hitleresque "Any prediction that doesn't end with total victory for me is obviously WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! Tell me what I want to hear!" mentality for Palpy.

Still, gambling on Darth Vader sitting by as he deepfried his son when he knows Anakin can and will do anything for his family was a whole new kind of dumb. You don't need a prophet to tell you that.
But that's another issue.

[Publius]

So Palpatine actually never 'saw' any bad results from the Endor plan? That's very interesting. Perhaps he was only seeing what he was looking for.

It is important to remember that Palpatine had successfully orchestrated the entire Clone War and the near-total annihilation of the Jedi Order, without the input of armchair advisors like the Prophets of the Dark Side. He had even proven time and again that when the chips were down, Anakin Skywalker would side with him, even against his better judgment. Even though Vader secretly dreamt of overthrowing his master, that was a longterm pie-in-the-sky ambition, to be enacted only after he had learned all Sidious had to teach him (see Return of the Jedi for Vader's perverse love for his master and his desire to eclipse him). His self-confidence may have clouded his judgment and prevented him from seeing anything but the success to which he'd become accustomed.

Almost all of Sidious's plans had come to fruition, and he did have excellent senses of prescience and clairvoyance (he could even feel Vader's danger on a distant planet halfway across the galaxy in Revenge of the Sith). He was not infallible, of course (again, he did not feel Luke Skywalker's presence on the Sanctuary Moon until after Vader mentioned it), but he had 40 years or more of successful plotting and manipulating under his belt by the time of the Battle of Endor in 39rS. He had no reason to doubt Vader's loyalty (Vader had been under his thumb for more than 20 years, whereas he'd spent only fleeting minutes with his son). Vader's betrayal was a spur of the moment thing, unpredictable and unplanned -- even Vader did not know he was going to do it until he was actually doing it. As Order 66 showed, there are definite blindspots to a Force user's clairvoyance.

Kadann evidently warned of disaster, but not in any concrete terms (again, "balance of the Force" being a Jedi dogma of little meaning to a Sith Lord, particularly one who believes in the Universal Force school like Sidious does), and even he saw a "myriad of possibilities," with disaster merely being "one of the strongest." Kadann and Jedgar were valuable for their extraordinary abilities as seers, of course, but they did not have Sidious's record of success or his strength in the Force. When it came to a difference in opinion, he opted to trust his own visions rather than theirs; from his perspective -- bestriding the galaxy like a colossus, with all the self-confidence that it implied -- they were merely being alarmists.

[Stark]

It's fascinating to imagine his mentality: he's been successful against terrible odds before, and all his risks had paid off. If you were such a man, and could see the future, I wonder how briefly you would examine the possiblity of failure? After deciding on a course of action, it's not surprising the Palpatine had little time for the prognostications of others.

[Surlethe]

It's fascinating to imagine his mentality: he's been successful against terrible odds before, and all his risks had paid off. If you were such a man, and could see the future, I wonder how briefly you would examine the possiblity of failure? After deciding on a course of action, it's not surprising the Palpatine had little time for the prognostications of others.

My guess is that Palpatine was so utterly arrogant, he believed in himself with all the fanaticism of, say, a religious fundamentalist. Note that he possessed absolutely no fear (that Windu could sense) when confronted with Windu and impending death; he was simply that confident in his own calculations and abilities. The only type of person I can think of who is similar at all in mindset is a religious fundamentalis. This isn't to say, of course, that Palpatine approached his strategems and schemes with a fundamentalist mindset, only that he was absolutely, fundamentally convinced that he was so perfectly amazing at the Game of Thrones that there was no reason to doubt his calculations toward any given end.

[Publius]

Precisely. This was a man who defined himself as the supreme judge of the universe, and casually dismissed anyone who could not use the Force (i.e., the vast majority of intelligent life) as an "inferior." Palpatine's self-confidence was fanatical even as early as The Phantom Menace, but by the time of Return of the Jedi he had literally decades of success and autocracy beneath his belt. His plans had always been successful in the past; he might very well say with Megatron, "My power is everything. Defeat is absurd."

The man was fundamentally narcissistic, and his ego had at that point been feeding off boundless success for decades. It is highly unlikely that he was even psychologically equipped to handle the idea that he might fail so spectacularly at Endor. He bestrode the galaxy like a colossus; the idea of him being brought down by a stumbling block like Vader's abrupt change of heart was simply absurd.

Quite apart from Palpatine's lack of experience with failure is the religious aspect. As Darth Sidious, Palpatine was the head of a sect with pretty well-defined dogmata and culture. Even though he was tolerant of other sects (like the Sith-influenced religions of the Prophets of the Dark Side and the Sorcerers of Tund), there is a limit to a cleric's willingness to be gainsaid by a priest from a rival religion. Palpatine's dynamology was fundamentally incompatible with Kadann's, and their relationship had always been unequal; Kadann's insistence on suggesting that Palpatine might fail was not only a personal insult, but a case of a dhimmi getting uppity with a True Believer. Even if they see eye to eye on most matters, no Pope will long tolerate blatant insouciance from a rabbi or mufti.

[The Guid]

Still, gambling on Darth Vader sitting by as he deepfried his son when he knows Anakin can and will do anything for his family was a whole new kind of dumb. You don't need a prophet to tell you that.

I don't believe this was part of Palpatine's plan. He started to "deep fry" Luke when his predictions for turning him went wrong - Palpatine went into anger zone and didn't really consider what he was doing. That's one way you could look at it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Hey, Palpatine had to screw up at some point in time. Too bad his first and only fuck up was his last one too...

[Knife]

I've never been able to reconsile my views on the Force. Typically there is the two views; one that the Force is like Fate or a God-like enity of some sort. Those with Force abilities are choosen to do so, for the plans of the Force and not necessarily what the Force user may think they are for.

Two, more like magic in a D&D setting. Where the power is there and there are some who can use it. By using it, some people bow to the 'absolute power corrupts' bit and generally turn super dick. Others do the 'with power comes responsibility' bit and do the classic good guy bit.

I usually go with the #1 concept since it, imo, seems to jive with the over all story arc. But when you break it down to the characters, and get into 'does use of the force turn you bad or does it stem from how you use the force' it does seem to point to #2.

As to which is more powerful? Neither, now matter which concept you choose. If it's a god-like fate thing going on, then you can either imagine it's amoral and doing what it needs to do and therefore concepts like good and evil stem from the same thing and are irrelevant. Or, the Force may be broken into the age old 'good god/bad god' bit in an enternal struggle blah blah blah. Either way, they'd represent to equal 'natural' forces struggleing with each other but gaining no ground.

If the Force is simply an energy field that some can tap, then again neither faction is more powerful by their particular slant and certain points of view. What would make them more powerful is their skills in using the force rather than any religeous concept.

[Surlethe]

I've never been able to reconsile my views on the Force. Typically there is the two views; one that the Force is like Fate or a God-like enity of some sort. Those with Force abilities are choosen to do so, for the plans of the Force and not necessarily what the Force user may think they are for.

Two, more like magic in a D&D setting. Where the power is there and there are some who can use it. By using it, some people bow to the 'absolute power corrupts' bit and generally turn super dick. Others do the 'with power comes responsibility' bit and do the classic good guy bit.

Could you reconcile them by saying that the Force controls the manner in which a Force user will approach using the Force, in some limited sense of predestination?

[Knife]

Could you reconcile them by saying that the Force controls the manner in which a Force user will approach using the Force, in some limited sense of predestination?

You could, though I think that's more of a cop-out. Lol, it's funny though, considering that in universe, event he Jedi have difficulty in 'defining' the Force. Hence the unification/living force concepts.

But like I said; personally, I prefer the 'fate' concept. The Force was chaos and order looking for balance. The republic was order but was slowy falling to chaos. Palpy represented a ~20 super chaos to weed out all the kinks to get back to some order and Vader was the key to that order....well Luke but...

It just breaks down, imo, when you look at the individual characters to close.

[FTeik]

I tend to view the Force as some kind of symbiont, that is developing parallel to the evolution/development of sentient, organic beings. Both influence each other and eachs actions reflect on the other one.

In-universe this might explain, why there are a few Jedi-families at the KOTOR/GoAotS-times and more during PT/OT/Post-ROTJ-times.

[Kurgan]

I kind of like the idea that the Force betrayed Palpatine and deliberately prevented him from seeing his own demise. A sort of reversal of the "clouding of perception" (shroud of the dark side) that happened to the Jedi in the Prequel Trilogy.

Could Vader have done something to him like that, perhaps subtly? Maybe, maybe not, but I think it's a fascinating idea.

Probably too deep for the EU though, oh well.

[Stark]

No, that's lame. It's far better narrative-wise for him simply to be hoist by his own petard... like he was. Inventing ridiculous explanations is nuts.

I don't understand the confusion about the force, though. It's just an energy field. You use it to do things. Call me nuts, but fundamentalists like the Sith and Jedi are probably seeing themselves in the operation of a purely mechanical system. Does anyone really believe in an interventionist Force? lol!

[Cao Cao]

Does anyone really believe in an interventionist Force? lol!

Well, you know.. Darth Vader = Jesus. So...

*flees*

[Stark]

Yeah, except the force didn't make him at all, Palps did. Whoops, no intervention, just magic using the force biofield.

[Solauren]

One also must consider, when discussing Palpatine at Endor, he had a prove infalliable fall back position

Transfering his mind into his clones.

It's more then likely his dismissed alot of the 'we're screwed' warnings because of that as well.

Consider
Ultimate Guard Dog: Darth Vader
Ultimate Shielded Weapon: Fully Functional Death Star, protected shield generator (note; fully functional Death Star could in theory include working Hyperdrive)
The Imperial fleet as a further stopguard.

And worse comes to worse, he could just switch bodies elsewhere and call his fleet and say 'okay, bit of a fuck up there, let's regroup and go back to hunting them.'

The EU support material suggests the only reason that didn't happen was the sheer unexpected attack by Darth Vader. Palpatine didn't have the time, or strength/concentration post frying of Luke, to execute the transfer properly. He ended up in a nearby Emperor's Hand instead. (oops!), and that is what ultimate lead to his downfall later on.

Overconfidence and overstretching himself.