Logical bugs in AotC!

[His Divine Shadow]

(As pointed out in the AOTC DVD Audio commentary) Dooku's "solar sail" isn't big enough to get him across interstellar space. I have read Wong's explanations, but this is from the creators and their comments. They DID base it off the scientific concept of the solar sail. See also the Ask the Jedi Council question on solar sails on starwars.com.
They also point out on the DVD that Watto's wings wouldn't be powerful enough to allow him to fly. ; )

ICS says it uses some unknown FTL particles or something like that

[The Dark]

The Dark: I specifically mentioned your point of disagreement in my post:
Read it again.
They receive the message - they can NOT be playing a recording of it, because they give Anakin and Padme orders right away (In the same Scene).
(That is unless my memory is totaly wrong).

Doh! Was thinking of the wrong message. You're right. #4 is either one freaky coincidence or a logic hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through.

[Kurgan]

Certainly, but the way it was portrayed in the movie... a delay of silence, the the SOUND explodes outward.

In actuality, 'seismic' implies an earthquake or earth vibration (in the vacuum of space?).

We can retcon it all we want to, but they goofed up.

Also, why project sounds in space when we are usually OUTSIDE the ship, not in it? It wouldn't make sense.

They just do it because audiences expect it and don't care.

[D.Turtle]

Kurgan: Why do we hear music even when there is obviously no orchester and choir around?

[Illuminatus Primus]

(As pointed out in the AOTC DVD Audio commentary) Dooku's "solar sail" isn't big enough to get him across interstellar space. I have read Wong's explanations, but this is from the creators and their comments. They DID base it off the scientific concept of the solar sail. See also the Ask the Jedi Council question on solar sails on starwars.com.
They also point out on the DVD that Watto's wings wouldn't be powerful enough to allow him to fly. ; )

ICS says it uses some unknown FTL particles or something like that

Last I heard speculation said it was a exotic hyperdrive. The fact Dooku got it near the Gree Enclave supports that. Check out the Technical Commentaries for a brief section on the Gree Enclave.

[Boba Fett]

New thing!

So how hot is the lightsaber's blade.

We all agree on the fact that it must be quite hot if it can burn through blastdoors etc.

That's why the saber's hilt is equipped with heat dissipator.

Againt these fact Anakin in the arena scene simply cuts off the handcuffs from Obi-wan's hands... (or was it Padme?)

[His Divine Shadow]

So how hot is the lightsaber's blade.

Unless acutally touching something, not very hot at all.

[Kurgan]

Kurgan: Why do we hear music even when there is obviously no orchester and choir around?

Rhetorical question, but I'll bite: because it adds to the "drama" of the story.

The sounds in space are for a similar reason... audiences are so used to hearing them it would seem "odd" if they were absent. And it makes it more "exciting." It does subtract from realism of course.

It's sort of like in fist fights in movies. Most of the time people get hit hundreds of times in the face with bare fists (which alone is fairly unrealistic, considering most people would break their hands and be unable to continue were they really applying that much force) and every time we hear LOUD powing noises or slapping sounds like somebody slugging a rump roast with a boxing glove on.

Or the ease with which glass breaks on people's faces (be it window glass, or a filled beer bottle broken over somebody's head), yet the same damage isn't transferred to the person's body as to the object 99% of the time!

It's more attention-grabbing, and we've become trained to expect it.

But that doesn't mean we can't continue to point out how unrealistic it all is!

[neoolong]

Kurgan: Why do we hear music even when there is obviously no orchester and choir around?

Rhetorical question, but I'll bite: because it adds to the "drama" of the story.

The sounds in space are for a similar reason... audiences are so used to hearing them it would seem "odd" if they were absent. And it makes it more "exciting." It does subtract from realism of course.

It's sort of like in fist fights in movies. Most of the time people get hit hundreds of times in the face with bare fists (which alone is fairly unrealistic, considering most people would break their hands and be unable to continue were they really applying that much force) and every time we hear LOUD powing noises or slapping sounds like somebody slugging a rump roast with a boxing glove on.

Or the ease with which glass breaks on people's faces (be it window glass, or a filled beer bottle broken over somebody's head), yet the same damage isn't transferred to the person's body as to the object 99% of the time!

It's more attention-grabbing, and we've become trained to expect it.

But that doesn't mean we can't continue to point out how unrealistic it all is!

Actually, with window glass you can go through it and still not be damaged. If you do it right.

[Kurgan]

Not the way its done in movies... high impact against naked skin = no cuts, no bruises, just a momentary "stun" if anything on the victim.

I say usually.. it's a movie cliche. Sort of like people smashing windows with their hands to open a door on a car or house and not sustaining any discernable injury.

People take all kinds of injuries but the effects on the person are seldom anywhere approaching realism. Another example: person is shot in the arm, later does complex or difficult actions with said arm without significant impairment.

[neoolong]

Not the way its done in movies... high impact against naked skin = no cuts, no bruises, just a momentary "stun" if anything on the victim.

I say usually.. it's a movie cliche. Sort of like people smashing windows with their hands to open a door on a car or house and not sustaining any discernable injury.

People take all kinds of injuries but the effects on the person are seldom anywhere approaching realism. Another example: person is shot in the arm, later does complex or difficult actions with said arm without significant impairment.

Movie cliche, yes. However, I have but my hand through windows at a fair speed on naked skin without getting cut. It can be done.

It is just overdone in movies.

[D.Turtle]

Kurgan: Since you bit the bait, I'll move to the next point (and hope I understand what you meant with the following:

Also, why project sounds in space when we are usually OUTSIDE the ship, not in it? It wouldn't make sense.
They just do it because audiences expect it and don't care.

If you would do it realistically, we wouldn't hear anything when anything is happening in space and we are outside a ship (i.e. Asteroid chase scenes in TESB and AOTC). Now, consider how boring it would be :p
I think it is a useful and allowed impairment of realism in SF movies.
Now moving on to the seismic mines:
It is interesting to note, that when the mine explodes, we here nothing - until the 'wave' comes close to the camera.
This implies that there is something special, as we don't have anything similar to this anywhere else in the movies (IIRC).
Now, you say that because the word 'seismic' implies something 'sonic', the weapons wouldn't/shouldn't work in outer space.
First question: How does 'seismic' imply 'sonic'?
Second question: Isn't seismic more like 'shockwave'? (ie. seismic waves from an earthquake.) Then the name would make sense, because the weapons effect is obviuosly some type of shockwave (ring-formed, but that can be achieved with directed explosions or energy release).
Third question: Did I understand correctly what you meant?
Fourth question: Did you understand what I mean?

[Kurgan]

Well now that's the thing.. if every Sci Fi movie had SILENCE in space (except for background music, which features in non-sci fi movies and nobody assumes it's necessarily real unless you see a band or radio blaring) then it wouldn't seem out of the ordinary.

It's sort of like lasers... they make a noise and they show you a nice colorful beam, when in actuality, they should be invisible, unless there's dust in the air or something to make it stand out. Cliches that people have grown accustomed to.

There's a great site for more of these.. moviecliches.com (or .net) I think, great stuff. ; )

Seismic implies vibration through the earth, so I guess in that sense it still doesn't make much sense. What is the vibration traveling through? Vacuum? Leaping from asteroid to asteroid?

Most explosions in sci fi occur at the instant of detonation, whereas you hear this big "bell" sound after a second or so of silence. The sound is "special" and that was the implication, that the sound is somehow involved in the mechanism.

It's sort of the exploding gas stuff we see in Insurrection... sure, it looks cool, and it sounds cool, but thinking about it makes it seem weak/silly/improbable. You can suspend disbelief and/or invent some other mechanism for it so that it works more with what we understand, but that doesn't mean there aren't serious flaws in the concept as is.

Now, I've seen people put together retcons about sound in space, but they're all ludicrous. Why would we be hearing sound outside the ships if the sound is created by the ships to give the passengers "feedback" or something like that?

If they were gunning for more realism, you might hear distorted sounds (if anything) inside a nebula, and sounds in atmosphere (the Hoth battle for example, or the AOTC ground battle) but not in the vacuum of space!

The thing is, its not impossible for the filmmakers to do this, they just don't because people are just set in their ways or they're assumed to be.
; )

[Kurgan]

If you go around trying to explain the mechanism in some other way (like Wong did) you'd also probably have to include some kind of containment field, because otherwise (without gravity, or a ground surface to travel over) shouldn't the explosion be an expanding SPHERE rather than a flat wave? It's detonating in open space, after all, and vaporizing asteroids with seemingly no resistance without changing shape.

[D.Turtle]

Frankly, I'm happy that I'm used to this movie cliche that we can hear sounds in outerspace, because otherwise it would be quite boring (Test it: Watch the Asteroid chase scene and all other scenes which occur in outerspace, outside of spacecraft without sound: boring, isn't it?

I addressed the 'problem' with the form of the explosion: A simple directed explosion. Hell, we can make those nowadays (How HEAT rounds work, for example). I don't think it would be that difficult to do the same in outerspace. One more thing: The seismic mine has to have some type of targetting, because we see it SPIN away, and the rings are still released right at the spacecraft.

I agree that there has to be some reason why the sound effects of the seismic mines are different (Pause - then explosion). It might not have to have anything to do with the mechanics of the weapon. It could simply be to emphasize the 'shockwave' effect of the weapon.

[Kurgan]

We could look at other "shockwave" explosions in Star Wars (granted, they were "added" in the SE, but bear with me): the Death Star explosions, and the destruction of Alderaan.

None of them have the same "effect" as the seismic charges. There's a sound as its imploding and a sound as the shockwave is released, none of this "bell" stuff with a "silence" delay.

Actually, I always thought they couldn't do a fight scene without some dialouge (but they did, and it was arguably more exciting than the previous ones that DID have dialouge).

It's only "cooler" because we've been TRAINED to expect it to be the "correct" way by all of sci fi (with a few exceptions, like 2001, which didn't feature any "space battles") including video games.

They COULD have done a rousing musical score during the battle, interspersed with sounds and chatter only INSIDE the cockpits.

Space battles are an amalgamation of undersea battles (submarines) and air battles (planes) on earth. Nobody on earth has witnessed a real space battle, so these illusions are built on stuff we "know" not what real science predicts.

[Kurgan]

It's just like the LOUD punching noises in fight scenes. We don't HAVE to have those, and some movies have had just as much excitment without them. It's just a tired cliche and movie-makers are afraid to change because it's breaking with tradition!

[Vendetta]

Frankly, I'm happy that I'm used to this movie cliche that we can hear sounds in outerspace, because otherwise it would be quite boring (Test it: Watch the Asteroid chase scene and all other scenes which occur in outerspace, outside of spacecraft without sound: boring, isn't it?

Watch 2001.

Space scenes with no sound can be fascinating. Especially if you want to induce tension, because for the majority of the audience, cutting them off from one of the usual senses can be somewhat unnerving.

As for the point about Geonosians not being able to fly, the Geonosians are clearly the Wicked Witch of the West's Winged Monkeys. Her magic makes them fly.

(When they were ordered to attack in the arena, you all KNOW the subtitle should have been 'Fly my pretties!")

[Kurgan]

Lol...!

[D.Turtle]

Well, I have already watched 2001, and I found it boring :p

I've never seen the SE (only OT), so I don't really know that much about it :p

I guess it is just a difference of opinion, we can't really agree on what solution is better (sounds or no sounds in space).

We also can't really say how the seismic mines work, as we don't have enough info (except that we know it can't be using sonic effects).

[Kurgan]

Well, simply put, sounds in the vacuum of space defy the laws of physics, so the lack of them would be more realistic, whether or not filmmakers adopt that in principle or not, and whether or not its "cooler."

2001 isn't an action movie, that's for sure, but its one of the classics of cinema, and arguably the film that put Science Fiction movies (?back) into the mainstream (by showing just how successful and well done a big budget sci fi endeaver could be). Prior to that, sci fi was pretty much relegated in popular thought to being throw-away comic book fodder for adolescents... pure escapism with laughable effects and full of cliches.


There may actually be weapons called "seismic charges" in the real world (though I doubt they are anything like what we saw in AOTC). But let's put it this way... the way they operate in the movie is nothing like any explosion we've seen thus far in Star Wars, SE or not. The shockwaves were added to certain explosions in the SE, but the sounds occur more or less the same as "ordinary" explosions, nothing like the seismic charges.

[tharkûn]

My biggest error:

Some how Kamino's star manages to exert a gravitational pull on the surrounding star's ... but nobody thinks to search on bloody optics.

Okay maybe the star is really cold, of course this makes one wonder how Kamino keeps its water liquid. Plus even cold stars give off hellish amounts of EM. Something has to be giving off IR.

Maybe the star is too far away for light to have reached the Republic proper ... then how does gravity have any effect? Gravity and light travel at the same speed (in a vacuum).

So we have the mystical star which exhibits gravity, but doesn't give off any EM radiation sufficient for detection ... though at a distance of even light-days should make the gravititional effects of a star pretty minute.

How in hell does Obi-wan detect the gravity and not detect its EM radiation (with an IR/radio teloscope if nothing else)?

[Biddybot]

Damnit, I thought this topic was about Geonosian mathematicians and engineers...

Logical bugs...okay, these are really more what I think of as amusing quirks of nature, but see what you think:

When Obi-Wan is fighting with Jango on the platform on Kamino, the sea state below clearly indicates wind waves of at least storm force. Now consider the rain falling throughout the scene. Does it look at though it's being driven by 50 knot winds to you?

When Anakin brings his dead mother home, her corpse is completely slack in his arms. Either he stepped through a time warp and it's only minutes after she dies or it must be a good day and a half later, in which case the poor women must, er, reek.

The meadow vegetation on Naboo offers many amazing examples of parallel evolution with like species here on Earth! (Yeah, I know this is cheap, but couldn't we for once have an Earth-like planet where the vegetation is predominantly red or mauve in colour? This is entirely possible. Many red-leafed varieties of plants grow right here on our own planet--how about tossing in a few to liven up those 'alien' worlds now and then? PS to Padme: Nice geraniums, too...)

[Biddybot]

Damnit, I thought this topic was about Geonosian mathematicians and engineers...

Logical bugs...okay, these are really more what I think of as amusing quirks of nature, but see what you think:

When Obi-Wan is fighting with Jango on the platform on Kamino, the sea state below clearly indicates wind waves of at least storm force. Now consider the rain falling throughout the scene. Does it look at though it's being driven by 50 knot winds to you?

When Anakin brings his dead mother home, her corpse is completely slack in his arms. Either he stepped through a time warp and it's only minutes after she dies or it must be a good day and a half later, in which case the poor women must, er, reek.

The meadow vegetation on Naboo offers many amazing examples of parallel evolution with like species here on Earth! (Yeah, I know this is cheap, but couldn't we for once have an Earth-like planet where the vegetation is predominantly red or mauve in colour? This is entirely possible. Many red-leafed varieties of plants grow right here on our own planet--how about tossing in a few to liven up those 'alien' worlds now and then? PS to Padme: Nice geraniums, too...)

[Boba Fett]

My biggest error:

Some how Kamino's star manages to exert a gravitational pull on the surrounding star's ... but nobody thinks to search on bloody optics.

Okay maybe the star is really cold, of course this makes one wonder how Kamino keeps its water liquid. Plus even cold stars give off hellish amounts of EM. Something has to be giving off IR.

Maybe the star is too far away for light to have reached the Republic proper ... then how does gravity have any effect? Gravity and light travel at the same speed (in a vacuum).

So we have the mystical star which exhibits gravity, but doesn't give off any EM radiation sufficient for detection ... though at a distance of even light-days should make the gravititional effects of a star pretty minute.

How in hell does Obi-wan detect the gravity and not detect its EM radiation (with an IR/radio teloscope if nothing else)?

Yes it was bugging me also but since I don't know much about astrophyisic...

...and Biddybot!

Good observation on the wind strength!

Point there!