Umpty-seventh Rehash of Clones Or Not: What do you think?

[lance]

Could they have planned on doubling there military in seven years and made more cloning facilities?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Evidence has told us that in the 3 and a half years between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, the Empire doubled the size of its military.

[Stravo]

Stravo wrote:
You know, we always brag about the vast imdustrial potential of the GE and its ability to field thousands of SD's so why can't they simply dedicate whole worlds to cloning.


Where? As long as it doesn't contradict canon outright, official is still true. So that means that cloning was officially banned, and all of the facilities had to be secret. Where would they possibly have so many? So large that no one would find them? Thrawn would be stuck with a sad paltry collection of momentos in a backwater world--so where were these worlds so well hidden?

If they can hide a moon sized battlestation and build it in secrecy, they can clone an army of that size. Its a big galaxy and we have no clue how large the facilties have to be. An entire world like Kamino that does not exist on any star charts seems like a good start to me. Hell seems like the whole outer rim is a good start since you have to go to specialized folks like Dex in order to get any info on the outer rim around AOTC era. Think about it, in that time "the Republic doesn't exist out here." according to Qui-Gon. So that's a PERFECT spot for a would be emperor to create his army.

How do you resolve a conflict between EU and GL???

I think I'm safe sticking to GL on this one.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If they can hide a moon sized battlestation and build it in secrecy, they can clone an army of that size. Its a big galaxy and we have no clue how large the facilties have to be. An entire world like Kamino that does not exist on any star charts seems like a good start to me. Hell seems like the whole outer rim is a good start since you have to go to specialized folks like Dex in order to get any info on the outer rim around AOTC era. Think about it, in that time "the Republic doesn't exist out here." according to Qui-Gon. So that's a PERFECT spot for a would be emperor to create his army.

Someone would've found it. Especially since they found useless shit like Wayland where Palpatine stashed stuff he didn't even use and no one ever went there. Though this doesn't solve the bigger picture of how they made so many clones from ANH to ESB.

How do you resolve a conflict between EU and GL???

I think I'm safe sticking to GL on this one.

Thank you for dodging the question.

1.) George Lucas' "grand vision" is a fucking myth. Watch the OT then Attack of the Clones. You know that Anakin was not going to be a 9 year old originally, that the Republic is 25,000 years old, the conflict was larger scale (Clone Wars instead of the Clone War) and it was a race of mad clones vs. everyone else like senario (the earlier scripts w/ Lando coming from the planet of clones--this idea was recycled by Zahn by GL nixed it in his again "revised" vision), Yoda trained Obi-Wan, and "the Sith" had nothing to do with the plot. And Boba Fett was a background character, transformed into an important overall saga plot device all of a sudden.

2.) George has changed is mind numerous time throughout SW history. Adjusting the idea of the Clone Wars, changing the dating of SW (Anakin was to be 60 in ROTJ, etc), and there was originally to be 9 episodes, which he now says he never said (?).

3.) Technology existed in 1977 to make stormtroopers clones. He could easily have slipped in some throw-away dialogue, and made all the stormtroopers the same height. Even make same voice. He did not.

4.) "I knew the stormtroopers were clones." - obviously refering to OT, and I have no problem with the idea that all the stormtroopers in the OT could have been clones, but we still have the issues of manning the ranks in the expansion from ANH to ESB.

5.) Obviously, if stormtroopers are clones, stormtroopers are clones. I'm simply pointing out logical inconsistencies and oddities. It isn't as logical for them all to be clones as you think.

[Stravo]

And I'm not denying that there aren't and I am one of the folks who agrees that there was no grand vision that GL is sort of still retooling his s tory as he goes along and you know what? Thats cool because as an author you have absolute rights to tinker around and redraft your stories as much as you want unitl they are in final form.

The only ones who are really acting pissy about the inconsistencies are the EU worshippers and god forbid it should be mentioned that GL could truly care less about the EU when it comes to his vision. Is there ANY DOUBT that this is true at this point?

The EU is there to make him money and to continue to entertain us with his stories, NOT to replace any ideas that he might have. I seriously doubt GL is going to change his mind about an idea becaue some EU author he paid wrote something different. "Uh, George we can't go forward with this clone idea because its very clear in the EU that..."
"You know what? This is my story so tell that author to go fuck himself." Yep.

I'm not dodging the question, its answered, GL says they're clones end of story and the EU retains its rightful place as a source for those of us who want to read cool SW stories. The EU is not the bible folks, GL can do as he pleases.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And I'm not denying that there aren't and I am one of the folks who agrees that there was no grand vision that GL is sort of still retooling his s tory as he goes along and you know what? Thats cool because as an author you have absolute rights to tinker around and redraft your stories as much as you want unitl they are in final form.

Then you admit its bullshit when he makes statements like "I always knew that..." or where he claims he never was going to make Ep. 7-9

The only ones who are really acting pissy about the inconsistencies are the EU worshippers and god forbid it should be mentioned that GL could truly care less about the EU when it comes to his vision. Is there ANY DOUBT that this is true at this point?

Hm.....thread hijack, appeal to motive.

I'm pointing out inconsistencies. My opinion on the EU for or againt is frankly fucking irrelevent and this pet rant is bullshit, I'm afraid.

How do you resolve a conflict between EU and GL???

I think I'm safe sticking to GL on this one.

This was pure red herring right there. No one had even brought up the EU novels and their association with the mess. No one had challenged GL's moral rights.

The reason I pointed out GL's wayward views on his own creation over the years in that set of numbered points was to point out his mostly at fault for the greatest inconsistencies with the authors he hires to write in his universe.

The EU is there to make him money and to continue to entertain us with his stories, NOT to replace any ideas that he might have. I seriously doubt GL is going to change his mind about an idea becaue some EU author he paid wrote something different. "Uh, George we can't go forward with this clone idea because its very clear in the EU that..."
"You know what? This is my story so tell that author to go fuck himself." Yep.

I'm not dodging the question, its answered, GL says they're clones end of story and the EU retains its rightful place as a source for those of us who want to read cool SW stories. The EU is not the bible folks, GL can do as he pleases.

So admit there's no explanation for the inconsistencies and take it. Do you not read where I said that "if they're clones, they're clones"? Your hard-on for the fact they are clones is irrelevent, as is your personal beliefs on GL's association w/ the EU. Irrelevent.

Point being, if he let's people play in his universe he's responsible for the stories he approves for the printing press. He's responsible for giving Zahn a retroactively retweaked timeline.

Point being, I never denied his moral rights. I haven't done anything other then point out the royally fucked nature of the facts we've been given. I never even brought the EU into this except for my calcs and to answer other people's points associated w/ Thrawn's campiagns.

Therefore, you started by ranting about where they'd hide the cloning facilities. When this was pointed out to not be the point at all, you dodged the inconsistency and threw up a big "GL MADE A DECLARATION AND IM NOT LISTENING" that had zero to do with the debate in general (plus I'm not changing my point in mid-stride, I'd already conceded GL's obvious moral rights):

5.) Obviously, if stormtroopers are clones, stormtroopers are clones. I'm simply pointing out logical inconsistencies and oddities. It isn't as logical for them all to be clones as you think.

Please do not lead this down a meaningless and repetatively deluge on the moral rights we already know while spouting your opinion of GL and how he relates to the EU as evidence against internal inconsistencies.

[Stravo]

I nevre denied there were inconsistencies, but there are enough supporting facts in the films to support GL's slant on this. Its the EU that muddies the waters. Are you then going to deny that if we only look at the films we can say "Oh yes, Stormies can't possibly be clones." NO.

What I AM saying is that the source of the confusion (aside from GL) is the EU. It muddied the waters by introducing elements that weren't in the film.

Am I wrong on this?

Films alone which GL is looking at Support his suppostion. Film + EU has you and I arguing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How? Visuals above everything. The stormtroopers are dissimiliar and have different heights and voices. They don't follow the pattern of the clonetroopers (they are a galaxy-wide occupation force, clones are like the Army Rangers; stormtroopers are just soldiers, clones make up the pilots and crew of their support vessels and the drivers of their vehicles). It is painfully obvious that Boba Fett is a marginal side character in the OT, compared with him as an obvious plot device in AOTC. The EU is muddled with ideas GL gave to them, and comissioned them to write about.

What I AM saying is that the source of the confusion (aside from GL) is the EU. It muddied the waters by introducing elements that weren't in the film.

Point taken. But about GL's fuddling w/ his own story's background, concession accepted.

You can't get around the fact that OT stormtroopers were designed with a race of clones in a much longer series of clone wars as part of a back story that has since been changed. Conclusions reached from the OT support the concept that the stormtroopers are clones in no way whatsoever.

[Illuminatus Primus]

By the way...

Am I wrong on this?

In no way whatsoever.

Keep in mind I'm still trying to find away to salvage GL's moral rights, the EU, and common sense w/ in some theory with regard to the stormies (no progress). But that is beyond the scope of this debate.

[Stravo]

The EU is muddled with ideas GL gave to them, and comissioned them to write about.

And here you and I are in ABSOLUTE agreement. IF GL really were taking the EU seriously AND he had this Grand plan, why all the confusion?? I happen to think that thinking abstractly in terms of how much he could do in the 70's with his budget he did the best he could to imply that Stormies were clones. We don't have any dialogue that states so, but there are certain things that support it.

Stormies were not that different in height. (I bet he couldn't cast all those extras at the same exact height due to budget restrictions or as you may suspect because he simply did not dream up the clone idea yet) Stormies were never seen without their masks. Stormies were fully expendable in the films and followed orders unquestionably, weak minded, and in my opinion did not sound that much different from each other (mostly because of teh elctronic muffling of the helmet)

GL DID say in an interview before ESB that Boba was supposed to be a Stormie CLONE that grew independent and left the Empire and then he LATER CHANGED HIS MIND (as you ably point out he has a tendency to do) and decided that Boba was actually part of the original cloning experiments that created the Stormies. Boba's background was always intertwined with the Stromies as of ESB.

Mind you I am not saying YES, GL had it right all along. I AM saying that we cannnot (excluding the EU) say WTF?!?! Where did THAT come from When it becomes clear that the clones are Stromies because there is some supporting evidence for thsi IMHO in the OT.

[HemlockGrey]

I always thought that the clones were the first stormies, and then as the ranks were depleted or expansion was necessary, people were drafted from the various worlds.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Eh. Stravo it gets more twisted. There are several pre-AOTC EU stories with clone stormtroopers (Pax Emperica, etc). One of them might have a clone apparatus that solves our little problem here.

My personal thoughts are simply not all stormtroopers are clones. I'm beginning to accept that the majority of them and all the elite and high-assignment stormies were clones.

[Sardaukar]

Remember, not neccessarily a debate thread.

HA!

[Illuminatus Primus]

So much for that platitude.

[Knife]

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

How? Visuals above everything. The stormtroopers are dissimiliar and have different heights and voices. They don't follow the pattern of the clonetroopers (they are a galaxy-wide occupation force, clones are like the Army Rangers; stormtroopers are just soldiers, clones make up the pilots and crew of their support vessels and the drivers of their vehicles). It is painfully obvious that Boba Fett is a marginal side character in the OT, compared with him as an obvious plot device in AOTC. The EU is muddled with ideas GL gave to them, and comissioned them to write about.

Not if they use different templets for different jobs. The best NCO's are used to clone NCO's and the best shooters are cloned to be the shooters, ect, ect, ect. By using different templets you get a more flexable force than you would by cloning one multipurpose person like Jango.

And why would you have to hide the Stormtrooper cloning facilities. Planet X is the Stormtrooper training planet and there are no unauthorised person's alowed to land on the planet. If people think that Planet X is some sort of training academy, well thats there fault and works in favor of secercy. In fact, it is a cloning facility and one of many at that. Perhaps there is a cloning facility with every normal academy or enlisted training facility. That way, when a outstanding recruit is found, a sample of his DNA and whatever else is needed can be taken and a batch of clones is made there.

[Pcm979]

If you accelerate the rate by a factor of 5.174 from the normal human growth cycle (minimum neccessary for fully grown clones in 3.5 years), you'll get troops which will be 40 in seven years after deployment. Accelerate the life cycle = more rapidly aging. Claiming that they can infinitely compress the life-cycle is a no-limits fallacy, and concluding the aging affects of (2x) observed on clones in the movies suddenly stopped when they turned 20 in biological years is a baseless conclusion w/ no evidence.

Lama Su, talking about Boba:

No tampering with the genetic structure to make it more docile, and no growth accereration.

It seems to me that the above quote (and many other lines in that scene) indicate that the growth acceleration and the genetic alterations where 2 entirely different things. The growth acceleration would be much more likely to be a growth hormone that the clones can be taken off once they reach adulthood. Also note that "growth" and "ageing" are two entirely different things- the clones may well be biologically 10 years old.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Lama Su, talking about Boba:

No tampering with the genetic structure to make it more docile, and no growth accereration.

It seems to me that the above quote (and many other lines in that scene) indicate that the growth acceleration and the genetic alterations where 2 entirely different things. The growth acceleration would be much more likely to be a growth hormone that the clones can be taken off once they reach adulthood. Also note that "growth" and "ageing" are two entirely different things- the clones may well be biologically 10 years old.

They'd be useless if they were biologically 10 and physically the size of 20 year olds.

What we do know for sure is that they altered the genes and they spoke of that when they were talking to Obi-Wan. Almost certainly that it is the genes that are modified for aging/growth...we understand that there are aging/growth genes now, and drugs such as that would likely have important biological side-affects that would be prohibitive in an efficient fighting force.

What we do know: they grew 2 x faster after emurging from their vats. Now which is more logical: assume no more (ie. remains 2 x) or invent a mechanism to change the only observed thing to suit one's argument? Hmm....

And I made the remark about the clone facilities having to be hidden because otherwise Pelleaon and everyone couldn't be fooled into believing cloning was banned and that they wouldn't be running out of clones if the facilities were out in the open.

Most likely the cloning facilities secretly maintained in the Deep Core, with Palpatine's other aces-in-the-hole.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not if they use different templets for different jobs. The best NCO's are used to clone NCO's and the best shooters are cloned to be the shooters, ect, ect, ect. By using different templets you get a more flexable force than you would by cloning one multipurpose person like Jango.

You're missing the point. Clearly they technically could still be clones, but if Lucas had been truly intending it, he did not indicate anything suggesting that the stormtroopers were clones. The argument was about what Lucas was trying to tell us from the movies, not technically what is possible. While your theory is excellently viable, it doesn't have anything to do with the conclusion that Lucas did not intend to depict the stormtroopers as clones when he made the OT due to the aforementioned reasons.

[Knife]

Not if they use different templets for different jobs. The best NCO's are used to clone NCO's and the best shooters are cloned to be the shooters, ect, ect, ect. By using different templets you get a more flexable force than you would by cloning one multipurpose person like Jango.

You're missing the point. Clearly they technically could still be clones, but if Lucas had been truly intending it, he did not indicate anything suggesting that the stormtroopers were clones. The argument was about what Lucas was trying to tell us from the movies, not technically what is possible. While your theory is excellently viable, it doesn't have anything to do with the conclusion that Lucas did not intend to depict the stormtroopers as clones when he made the OT due to the aforementioned reasons.

Or lack of fore thought. He probably never thought he would have to make a movie about the clone wars.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Or lack of fore thought. He probably never thought he would have to make a movie about the clone wars.

Bullshit. He had the capabilities to suggest to us, the audience; let us know that stormtroopers were clones. He did not do so. This has nothing to do w/ making the prequel trilogy.

[Ghost Rider]

But has a great possiblity...given that he didn't make Luke and Leia Sister and brother with little thought until Empire(gave a hint that Leia had Force sensitivity)

And given how vague he was of the Clone wars...I'd say he had no idea of what the Stormtroopers were going to be. Intially he probably made them just to be elite grunts...now he's decided they all are clones of a certain stock and will change the movies to reflect this.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Obviously. That's my WHOLE POINT, that when he said "I knew stormtroopers were clones" he was most likely talking out of his ass. The whole point is he changes things around too much and screws up his own universe.