I have got a problem

[Chris OFarrell]

That from from Dark Journy, Page 54 BTW.

[His Divine Shadow]

That from from Dark Journy, Page 54 BTW.

OK, thx.
*Thwack*

[Illuminatus Primus]

Some of the NJO books are somewhat interesting. Basically the NR gets its ass kicked by an extra-galactic race known as the Yuuzhan Vong. The Empire still exists, and it's still reasonably powerful, but the NR refuses to tag them and let them come into the ring for any length of time. Meanwhile, a group known as the Chiss lives in the Unknown Regions. They have vast fleets, advanced technology, and left-over Imperial know-how. Their war-machine was constructed to fight the Yuuzhan Vong when they finally came, and it has been building since the OT era. For some reason that is only touched on by the novels, the Chiss don't want to get involved and so they don't. Am I going too fast for you?

The Empire is reduced to eight sectors out of over a thousand. The Imperial Remnant's fleet is maybe in the couple thousand upper end ships. Not very big at all. Their lack of involvement has nothing to do with the NR, as you can read in Destiny's Way. They seem to be thinking they can sit out the war and collect local sectors after the fact.

The Chiss do not have large fleets. Their hyperdrive/navicomputer technology is vastly inferior to the mainstream civilization's. Their weapons technology is quite inferior to blaster/laser/turbolaser technology. They have eight primary systems around which the Chiss "Houses" are organized around. The comics depict the Chiss as not very powerful at all in comparison to the mainstream galaxy's even minor powers.

They have not been building since the OT. You missed the whole point of Zahn's Hand of Thrawn the Chiss themselves are orthodox and static with little reform or expansion.

The faction in the Unknown Regions that we glimpse in Vision of the Future is Imperial. It is what is left of Thrawn's "mapping" campiagns during the OT. They recruit from the Chiss because they have no new influx of resources or manpower.

The Chiss told Luke in Vision of the Future that they had fought things in the Unknown Regions that the NR could never hope to defeat. Assuming that they did not absolutely destroy their own war-machine in the process of fighting these (in which case they will have had at least three years to recover, as of the current NJO story, and probably as many as seven years), then they have more powerful fleets than the NR.

Bullshit. We saw NO fleets with the Chiss ever. In some of Zahn's short stories, Thrawn spends large amounts of time dealing with raiders and pirates. "Admiral" Parck's rants sound like Hitler's speeches on the Bolshevik hordes and the Chiss recruits sound like mindless fanatics.

Let us analyze the evidence:

1.) The Chiss have inferior technology, resources, and manpower to the New Republic.

2.) The "House Phalanx" has recieved no support in resources, manpower, or technology since the OT. All of the difference has to be made through home-grown stuff or from the Chiss who have extremely inferior everything.

3.) Thrawn's "House Phalanx" (the faction at Niruaan) had no support whatsoever. It's only defenses were the weak Chiss counterpart to turbolasers. Their only observed ships were Clawcraft.

4.) Niruaan was their headquarters and Thrawn's secret hiding spot. I think they'd defend this, their ace-in-the-hole, with the fleets you're claiming. Instead it is armed with inferior Chiss weaponry which couldn't stop an armored yacht from landing in their hangar bays and destroying all of their spacecraft.

5.) Niruaan is not in the right place to defend the Unknown Regions or the galaxy proper from invasion. Their enclave should be located at the diffuse edge of the galactic halo, not within the galactic disk which makes it incredibly inside the Outer Rim.

6.) Parck and the Chiss recruits regarded Thrawn almost like a demigod. They spoke nothing but vague generalizations about the so-called horrible threats. The threats spoken of were explained to Mara by the Chiss recruits. The Chiss recruits have no idea of galactic society since they know only of the Chiss homeworlds of eight little fucking planets! Parck rants about Thrawn and makes the absurd suggestion the Sith Lord Vader, alien Grand Admiral Thrawn, and little assassin Mara were all equal replacements for a pre-AOTC political aide for a right hand man! He clearly has something wrong....not to mention they sound like Hitler's ranting about Reds across the border...

7.) Niruaan's location, the Hand of Thrawn's purpose, and the nature of its defenders suggest it is a paramilitary base for Thrawn's designs on conquering the galaxy proper, not on defending the galaxy and its associated space.

The Chiss also must have more advanced technology than they did when the Empire left them. When the Empire was last there (GAT campaign), the Imperial technology was approximately on-par with the NR technology of the era.

Proof? They do not have even half way decent technology. The weaponry designed to protect one of their most key fortresses couldn't prevent Mara from sending her yacht in one robotic control to crash in their hangars! And they supposedly have access to Imperial technology. Evidentally their resources are a lot less then you assumed. And official descriptions of Chiss technology and the Clawcraft explain how they do not have navicomputer level technology and use beacons like the Republic of 4,000 years before ANH.

It was only more advanced because of the Wayland facility that GAT discovered.

Wayland was almost worthless. It has cloning cylinders that Palpatine didn't use and just decided to discard on some planet with a whacko clone he created and a cloaking device inferior to the one's they'd already developed. That is all that the place had.

When the Chiss re-emerged, their starfighters are superior to those of the NR in the present era (ie. XJ X-Wings) by being both faster and more maneuverable, while retaining most of the firepower (if not all of it).

Again, there is a difference between the Chiss and the House Phalanx faction Thrawn left behind full of his fanatics. Jag Fel comes from the latter.

The T-65JA3 is inferior to the E-Wing, which is described as having the speed/manuverability of the TIE Interceptor with more firepower then the X-Wing. The Clawcraft lacks warhead tubes, IIRC, and most TIE weapons can match the X-Wing's guns without problem.

Given the fact that it isn't hard for other NR designs and Imperial designs to outmatch the XJ, it isn't too difficult to see a warmongering group of blue Nazis (hey, Gamer did clarify that Thrawn enjoyed ridding himself of racially inferior trash after all) developing a faster ship then the XJ. The Clawcraft, IIRC still had no navicomputer, or at least the original House Phalanx one didn't.

Compare these to Pelleon's remarks in Dark Force Rising, in which he was worried about his TIE Interceptors engaging A-Wings (because the A-Wings were faster than "even those accursed X-Wings"). Assuming that Pelleon was worried about his starfighters engaging a speedier enemy, TIE Interceptors were less fast than the A-Wings, which in turn are outrun by the modern XJ X-Wings.
NTM that the Chiss fleets appear to be HIGHLY disciplined, veteran units as we have seen.

We know that the TIE Interceptor has the X-Wing outmatched in both speed and manuverability by all sources. The A-Wing's have shields AND they're faster than TIE Interceptors, but the TIE/I is more manuverable.

Please show me where XJ's outrun A-Wings.

And I ask again what "Chiss fleets"? You mean pilots and fanatics creeping about the Hand of Thrawn fortress?

What features does the Chiss claw-craft lack that are present in XJ X-Wings? In the horrible Dark Journey, we learn that Chiss claw-craft also have comparable range to XJ X-Wings, and that they can operate independent of a base of operations for considerable lengths of time, even when engaged in occasional combat situations. If anything, they are significantly more advanced than the modern NR fighters.

Their comparitive range is understandable. Given the mostly empty nature of the galactic halo, a ship would have to travel far to get from place to place. Not to mention Vision of the Future has limited quarters and provisions aboard the Clawcraft, increasing its affective range for the pilot (IIRC I believe that it was a Clawcraft from descriptions and memory).

In what other way are they more advanced than NR fighters? Which bit of that is better training or experience for Phalanx pilots?

BTW, the thing about the Chiss occuppying a smaller territory is not really relevent. We're not sure what resources there are out there, but the Galaxy proper has been stripped of its resources for at least the last 25,000 years, and probably much earlier than that.

I think you doubt the galaxy's scale. They're nowhere near being depleted of resources. And civilization hasn't filled the whole galaxy for 25,000 years. 5,000 years before ANH there were two civilizations in the galaxy which had no contact. Galaxy-wide civilization is only 5,000-4,000 years old.

The Unknown Regions, meanwhile, are largely unexplored and retain their resources.

The galactic halo doesn't contain much. Mostly diffuse stellar matter ejected from the disk at one point and globular clusters.

The Chiss Empire stretches for about 100 or 150 sectors (with 50 or more inhabitable planets each)

1.) The House Phalanx is not the Chiss civilization.

2.) The Chiss are more like an oligarchial aristocracy. The Chiss have eight completely settled worlds and that is it and they are not an Empire.

3.) There isn't much outside the galactic disk containing most of galactic civilization. Sectors seem to be a area of size. Those sectors (where was the source for that, BTW) don't actually contain much.

4.) Mara verifies there isn't much there. She doesn't think there are very many if any colonies. That leaves 8 settled planets with a few military outposts and bases spread throughout the mostly empty galactic halo.

5.) Unless I forgot a key source, the 50 inhabited worlds is completely wrong.

and their war-machine has been untouched by the massive civil wars that have rocked the rest of the Galaxy for the last few decades

So? They've delt w/ internal problems and Thrawn's oh-so-difficult pirates and raiders (Zahn's short stories). How do you think Baron Fel got his eye patch? They pick fights frequently, like with the Ssi-ruuvi, who they fought to a standstill shortly after Endor (Essential Chronology).

The Chiss have conquered virtually all of the Unknown Regions,

They have no conquered the entire Unknown Regions. And again, the House Phalanx is not the Chiss civilization (VoTF). The galactic halo which is FAR FAR larger in volume than the galactic disk they've only siezed 100-150 sectors of. If the galactic disk's volume is equivalent to 1,000 sectors. 100-150 sectors of mostly empty space is pathetic. The area they occupy is mostly empty and equal only to 10-15% of the galactic disk's volume, despite the Unknown Regions being much much greater in volume than the galactic disk. Not to mention they've never encounted several of the real powers of the Unknown Regions to our knowledge, like the Tofs (Marvel), the Nagai (Marvel), and the race of machines which travel around in 50 km spheres all the time and built the droid Wufi Raa (Lando Calrissian trilogy).

and are now digging in and preparing their warships for their eventual emergence.

Since when?

Sorry, but I don't really see why a fleet that is made up of a group of war-torn and largely undeveloped areas of the Galaxy HAS to be much more powerful than a VERY fresh, military society that exists away from the conflagrations at the heart of the Galaxy,

I'm sorry, but that is completely untrue. Virtually every single reference to the Chiss has them involved in combat and apparently always stuck in a fight with somebody.

particularly since it's been building up and marshalling forces for the last several decades.

And if those forces have technology comparable to the Republic 4,000 years ago? And control mostly empty space worth 10-15% of galactic disk volume? With only eight completely habited worlds and a handful of colonies, outposts, and bases?

Although I think that the fact that the Chiss are not yet engaged with the YV IS shitty writing, I don't have a problem with their alleged fleet strengths.

They're not engaging the YV because the Yuuzhan Vong would utterly annhiliate them. As per the examples above, you're relying on Thrawn's fanatics' opinions of their own struggles despite the fact they have nothing to compare it with. Zahn's claims that the secret threat was the Vong is not official, he is not a LFL snactioned source when it comes to his out-of-universe opinions. The Vong were devised by Del Rey (a seperate publisher w/ which Zahn has bad relations with) after he wrote Vision of the Future.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I would give the Chiss, at most, comparable assets to the Imperial Remnant and that is still vastly overestimating their likely strength.

"With respect Sir, I was commissioned in this household to serve and uphold the ideals of Grand Admiral Thrawn."

The same fanatical devotion that the Chiss recuits at Niruaan showed.

They're a bunch of paramilitaries who were left outside real civilization in case the blue Stalin ever needed to throw them at his enemies in another attempt to take over the galaxy.

[His Divine Shadow]

I would give the Chiss, at most, comparable assets to the Imperial Remnant and that is still vastly overestimating their likely strength

No, the Chiss are more powerfull than the IR, in VOTF anyway they are several times stronger IIRC.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No. Luke and Mara assumed from what the Chiss fanatics told them. Which really doesn't make any sense since they didn't observe anything other then the fact Thrawn mapped the Unknown Regions AND that the House Phalanx has a military presence in a 100 sectors or so.

Screw the mystics. It doesn't even mesh with the rest of the story. Stop thinking in terms of dialogue for a second. Notice we have ONE fortress, with weapons much inferior to TLs, with no ships seen from the Phalanx at the Fortress or not larger then Slave 1.

Now what do you think? Luke is being paranoid, or they have a phantom enconomy with phantom sources of phantom manpower (oh wait, I forgot, they have to recruit from the pathetic only 8 Chiss worlds) manning phantom ISDs...hmm....

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nothing in the story other than Parck's delusional rants in the lonely fortress show any evidence of any real threat to the New Republic.

The only threat really was Thrawn's clone, and the databases he'd accumulated in the fortress.

[His Divine Shadow]

No. Luke and Mara assumed from what the Chiss fanatics told them. Which really doesn't make any sense since they didn't observe anything other then the fact Thrawn mapped the Unknown Regions AND that the House Phalanx has a military presence in a 100 sectors or so

No, they saw that on the map of Chiss territory.
Nor where the Chiss fanatics at all, I don't know where you got that impression...

Screw the mystics. It doesn't even mesh with the rest of the story. Stop thinking in terms of dialogue for a second. Notice we have ONE fortress, with weapons much inferior to TLs, with no ships seen from the Phalanx at the Fortress or not larger then Slave 1

So?
And no, I won't, I see no meshing problems.
I am thinking in terms of the overall story and I see ZERO reasons to assume something is wrong, it seems purely personal reasons is the motivating factor from my POV.

Lists of strenghts are quite clearly:
NR
Chiss
IR

That doesn't mean the Chiss are strong.

Now what do you think? Luke is being paranoid, or they have a phantom enconomy with phantom sources of phantom manpower (oh wait, I forgot, they have to recruit from the pathetic only 8 Chiss worlds) manning phantom ISDs...hmm....

I think you're just invalidating evidence left and right for whatever purpose you might have, well that doesn't fly.

8 Chiss worlds can contain god knows how many people and resources.
The Imperial Remnant had only 200 ISD's left, the Chiss could easily have 1000 ISD's aviable.

[His Divine Shadow]

Eh, nevermind, I might just be coming around to your POV, as long as you provide evidence for inferior Chiss tech as you showed in your post to MOO.

[Illuminatus Primus]

No. Luke and Mara assumed from what the Chiss fanatics told them. Which really doesn't make any sense since they didn't observe anything other then the fact Thrawn mapped the Unknown Regions AND that the House Phalanx has a military presence in a 100 sectors or so

No, they saw that on the map of Chiss territory.

But he wasn't. At the edge of the known galaxy, where Palpatine's holo had shown only the white stars of the Unknown Regions, an entirely new area had been colored in.

"Oh I agree there probably aren't more than a few actual clonies out there. But you can bet there are Imperial garrisons scattered all over the place, plus intel centers and listening posts and probably a full-blown shipyards, And I know Thrawn, probably a whole network of alliances with the natives, too."...

...--nearly thirty times the Empire's current size....

...With thirty times the Empire's number of warships, garrisons, and shipyards? Very possibly.

Hmmm...sounds like there is stuff there for sure. But to think there is thirty times as much than the Empire, which has actual inhabitants, an actual economy, and left over fleet resources they withdrew from regions they couldn't defend...the Imperial Remnant is a rather dense region of stars and resources and military materiel. The Unknown Regions holdings by the House Phalanx is thirty times that. But the galactic halo is mostly empty space with few stars even fewer inhabitants. You do the math.

Nor where the Chiss fanatics at all, I don't know where you got that impression...

I wonder whether it is because they ranted maniacally about threats they never were specific about (we flame all kinds of psychos in the Science and Morality forum all the time for being alarmist paranoids), the fact they worship a racist asshole like Thrawn, or that they were willing to do anything for "the cause"?

So?
And no, I won't, I see no meshing problems.
I am thinking in terms of the overall story and I see ZERO reasons to assume something is wrong, it seems purely personal reasons is the motivating factor from my POV.

Well it is nice to see you've ignored all the evidence otherwise.

1.) The holo merely showed Thrawn had mapped the entire Unknown Regions and accordingly filled in the display.

2.) Mara and Luke assume that the fleet and military strength of the House Phalanx is directly proportional to the volume of the territory it controls and likewise with the Empire but neglecting the fact that the Unknown Regions is mostly empty space.

3.) Few colonies, and the Chiss worlds are not actually part of House Phalanx, the noble families pretend they don't know that the Phalanx exists. Where's the economy and manpower for this nonexistent force?

4.) The book itself describes Parck's reminscings about Thrawn "reverencial" and Parck has to restrain the Chiss recruit, Stent's outbursts glorifying their struggle.

5.) The threats are never identified at all. Zahn's short stories depiciting Thrawn's campiagns show no such threat or refer to it, IIRC.

6.) The base at Niruaan, despite its strategic value, was completely undefended by the supposed fleet resources, and it is completely in the wrong location to defend the Unknown Regions from internal or extragalactic attack.

Lists of strenghts are quite clearly:
NR
Chiss
IR

That doesn't mean the Chiss are strong.

I think you're just invalidating evidence left and right for whatever purpose you might have, well that doesn't fly

I agree the Chiss aren't strong. But I think the Imperial Remnant, especially by NJO, is more powerful than the House Phalanx. We subject Trek to much deeper analysis and doubt than merely excepting the main character's thoughts and dialogue, and why different in Vision of the Future? Direct observation certainly goes against the main character's thoughts, as I laid out above. Now it is circumstancial, and I may be wrong, but I'm not doing this for personal reasons. I'm doubting Luke and Mara's opinion because there's no evidence of any fleet at all for the House Phalanx. Especially by their reasoning. Volume might mean a lot within the galactic disk, but outside it in the halo where there are few stars, it isn't indicative of fleet resources as the only evidence.

8 Chiss worlds can contain god knows how many people and resources. The Imperial Remnant had only 200 ISD's left, the Chiss could easily have 1000 ISD's aviable.

No evidence for the 1000 ISDs. None. The only ships we've seen w/ the House Phalanx are Clawcraft. Chiss (not House Phalanx) capital ships according to WoTC (IIRC) are no larger than 500 meters.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Just a sec, I got the hardback right here, but it takes a bit to thumb through to find where they wreck Mara's yacht.

[His Divine Shadow]

But the galactic halo is mostly empty space with few stars even fewer inhabitants. You do the math

Actually the math is that star density doesn't matter since there is still more than enough stars to inhabit.

I wonder whether it is because they ranted maniacally about threats they never were specific about (we flame all kinds of psychos in the Science and Morality forum all the time for being alarmist paranoids)

I don't think they ranted maniacally personally though.

the fact they worship a racist asshole like Thrawn, or that they were willing to do anything for "the cause"?

Thrawn? Racist? WTF?e+3200

[Illuminatus Primus]

And then, a flurry of turbolaser shots abruptly burst out, the green fire accompanied this time by a counterpoint of blue from Chiss-style weaponry. All four towers were firing now, firing madly and persistently, all in the same direction.

Turbolaser and Chiss fire from all defensive batteries on the four main towers of the fortress.

"It had to be done," she said, her voice trembling. In the backwash of light from the enemy fire Luke could see she was no longer even trying to hold back the tears.

The fire from the towers is sufficient and volumnous enough to illuminate Mara's face at night.

Also, the best defense force in Chiss Space was described as inferior to a small private collection of ships secretly sent to destroy an unarmed ship (Thrawn's Expansionary Defense Force vs. Palpatine's private attack force to destroy the Outbound Flight Project).

And then, above the edge of the cliff, he saw it. Cutting low over a distant hill, its hull burnished by the surrealistic affect of full shields operating in atmosphere, it twisted and writhed like a living thing as it evaded or dodged or simply shrugged off the withering firestorm savaging the air around it, firing back steadily but uselessly in return at the impenetrable black stone rising before it.

It was taking heavy fire direct to the shields. I may be biased, but I feel if a large volume of this was full defensive turbolaser fire, it would've destroyed the yacht. This fortress was optimized for destroying opponents with similiar sized vessels to a yacht (after all you get shuttles/landing craft and fighters/bombers in that size or larger) from the Unknown Regions, whereas a similar vessel from the galaxy proper was able to penetrate the same defensive fire without even losing its shields or sustaining any damage at all.

The yacht which replaced the Jade's Fire was able to internally store an X-Wing, IIRC, and the Jade's Fire was probably of similar size.

Clawcraft
this was the form of starfighter developed by the Chiss in the early years of the peace accord between the Imperial Remnant and the New Republic. Named for their appearance, clawcraft were constructed from the cockpit and engines of a standard TIE Fighter. Instead of solar panels for wings, the clawcraft had four arm-like projections sprouting from the sides of the cockpit, each tipped with a laser cannon. Measuring just over 7.5 meters in length, the clawcraft also had limited hyperspace capabilities, lacking a true navigational computer in favor of realspace anchor points near each Chiss-inhabited planet. (DTR, SWG5)

That was one of their newest craft too. Less than five years of old.

Also: error earlier, turns out the TIE-like craft Mara and Luke nabbed with the crew quarters in Vision of the Future I thought was a Clawcraft actually was a earlier fighter. My mistake.

Charric
A chiss-developed particle-discharge weapon. Although appearing to be a normal blaster rifle, it emitted a maser-guided beam of particles that caused kinetic and thermal damage to living organisms. (SWG5)

Fel gestured to one of the Chiss. "Brosh, your charric. Set for level two.".....

...."Yes I'm sure," Parck interrupted, frowning. "Really, Mara, you're making far more out of this than you need to. Charric burns are certainly serious, but that's hardly even a consideration for someone with the Jedi skills of pain suppression and healing."....

..."You'll do neither," Fel assured her. "I know both the power and the limitations of Chiss weaponry."

They shot her directly with the weapon at a level capable of incapacitating a normal person. Moreover, a Jedi who would be shot directly would be incapacitated but able to heal themselves. A blaster on any setting except stun would probably have killed her instantly.

Correction: I confused the number of Imperial Remnant sectors with the number of Chiss worlds. There are 28 Chiss worlds and 4 Houses.

According to Gamer 5, Thrawn would not have executed that crewman aboard the Chimarea if he'd been a Chiss.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually the math is that star density doesn't matter since there is still more than enough stars to inhabit.

Really? If you have one region with greater stars per sector, they'll be more stars over all. More stars overall means there will statistically be more inhabitable planets and more resources. The fewer overall stars, the fewer inhabitable planets and less resources.

Therefore, it would be incredibly unlikely for fleet density to be directly tied to volume when one region has much fewer inhabitable planets and less resources because it less dense then the other.

[His Divine Shadow]

Really? If you have one region with greater stars per sector, they'll be more stars over all. More stars overall means there will statistically be more inhabitable planets and more resources. The fewer overall stars, the fewer inhabitable planets and less resources.

You cannot, and should not, equate habitable planets as a requirement for resource harvesting.

Therefore, it would be incredibly unlikely for fleet density to be directly tied to volume when one region has much fewer inhabitable planets and less resources because it less dense then the other.

We do not know they have less planets though, we only know of some chiss-worlds, surely there are more than Chiss in there.

According to Gamer 5, Thrawn would not have executed that crewman aboard the Chimarea if he'd been a Chiss.

Any quotes, shots, anything?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Stent gave a contemptous snort. "From what," he bit out harshly. "You soft, complacent female. You think that because you lounge around your quiet worlds behind a ring of starships that the rest of the galaxy is a safe place to live? There are a hundred different threats out there that would freeze your blood if you knew about them. The ruling families can't stop them; neither can any other power in the region. If our people are to be protected, it's up to us."

We usually marginalize people with that kind of self-important, alarmist, attitude. He's never visited the galaxy proper, he's speaking only from his own whacko opinion. Yet, his opinion seems almost self-contradictory. He says it'd freeze your blood...yet...

"You think that because you lounge around your quiet worlds behind a ring of starships that the rest of the galaxy is a safe place to live?"

Even from his opinion, the galaxy proper is a quiet, safe place defended by a "ring" of starships.

"The ruling families can't stop them; neither can any other power in the region. If our people are to be protected, it's up to us."

The group identified as threatened is only the Chiss. And as for things he lists as weaker, he only says "any other power in the region." His own descriptions say Mara would be scared of the threats (perhaps he means if she was in his position?), but the galaxy proper is well defended and pampered and stronger then the forces in his region.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Really? If you have one region with greater stars per sector, they'll be more stars over all. More stars overall means there will statistically be more inhabitable planets and more resources. The fewer overall stars, the fewer inhabitable planets and less resources.

You cannot, and should not, equate habitable planets as a requirement for resource harvesting.

Bull fucking shit. Where else are they going to mine from except terrestial rocky worlds?

According to astronomers, the edge of the galaxy and beyond would be very poor in metals and other higher elements.

We do not know they have less planets though, we only know of some chiss-worlds, surely there are more than Chiss in there.

You are missing the point. Outside the galactic disk there are almost no stars, and they are few and far between. Because there are so few stars, there will be extremely fewer habitable and rocky planets.

Any quotes, shots, anything?

Give me a bit. I don't have Gamer 5 with me. I'll have to ask a friend to fax me the page.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Thrawn's Justice

Records gathered aboard the Star Destroyer Chimaera demonstrate that Chiss standards differ when a crime or egregious error is committed by a non-Chiss. After a regrettable failure of a bridge crewman aboard his ship, the infamous Chiss Grand Admiral Thrawn ordered his Noghri enforcer to kill an incompetent officer. Had the offending party or the intended recipients of the lesson been a fellow Chiss, Thrawn would likely have been less overt.

[His Divine Shadow]

Bull fucking shit.

*sigh* What is your problem?

Where else are they going to mine from except terrestial rocky worlds?

rocky terrestial worlds != habitable worlds.

According to astronomers, the edge of the galaxy and beyond would be very poor in metals and other higher elements

Obviously not enough to matter given the scale of the galaxy vs. teh scale of the civilization since the OR had billions of planets being mined in one spiral arm.

You are missing the point. Outside the galactic disk there are almost no stars, and they are few and far between. Because there are so few stars, there will be extremely fewer habitable and rocky planets

They're not outside the galactic disc, the unknown regions is infact inside the disc and outer rings, there's just an unknown area there that have only been observed with telescopes or entered by pirates or Thrawn.

We usually marginalize people with that kind of self-important, alarmist, attitude. He's never visited the galaxy proper, he's speaking only from his own whacko opinion. Yet, his opinion seems almost self-contradictory. He says it'd freeze your blood...yet...

Yes we do, so what thats only subjective impressions. He was right in the end.

The group identified as threatened is only the Chiss. And as for things he lists as weaker, he only says "any other power in the region." His own descriptions say Mara would be scared of the threats (perhaps he means if she was in his position?), but the galaxy proper is well defended and pampered and stronger then the forces in his region.

I found his meaning rather clear and non contradictory, he speaks of regional powers, he obvoiusly wants the Chiss goverment, to merge or ally with the NR or Imperial Remnant.

[His Divine Shadow]

Thrawn's Justice

Records gathered aboard the Star Destroyer Chimaera demonstrate that Chiss standards differ when a crime or egregious error is committed by a non-Chiss. After a regrettable failure of a bridge crewman aboard his ship, the infamous Chiss Grand Admiral Thrawn ordered his Noghri enforcer to kill an incompetent officer. Had the offending party or the intended recipients of the lesson been a fellow Chiss, Thrawn would likely have been less overt.

I see, but that I believe is not intentional racism, or even racism as much as a social thing ingrained into them, like certain stuff is ingrained in people today.

Also, it says "less overt", I'm not english now but this to me might just seem he would dispose of him in a less public manner.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm sorry Thrawn isn't racist enough for you to not love him. How that is anything but racism escapes me.

[Illuminatus Primus]

rocky terrestial worlds != habitable worlds.

Where there are rocky terrestial worlds, there will be habitable worlds, the two go hand and hand and they'll need a populace to support an economy and manpower resources for the supposed fleet. Material and manpower resources that are not there. No economy. Nada.

So life is a safer bet the farther you go from the center of the galaxy, but get too far from the center and planets become more rare. That's because heavy elements fro which planets are made become more and more rare the farther you go from the center of the galaxy.

http://www.earthsky.com/2002/es020225.html (author's notes)

According to astronomers, the edge of the galaxy and beyond would be very poor in metals and other higher elements

Obviously not enough to matter given the scale of the galaxy vs. teh scale of the civilization since the OR had billions of planets being mined in one spiral arm.

According to astronomers, the edge of the galaxy and beyond would be very poor in metals and other higher elements

Thus not only are the stars fewer out there, they are also less likely to have planets, both habitable and mining-worthy.

You are missing the point. Outside the galactic disk there are almost no stars, and they are few and far between. Because there are so few stars, there will be extremely fewer habitable and rocky planets

They're not outside the galactic disc, the unknown regions is infact inside the disc and outer rings, there's just an unknown area there that have only been observed with telescopes or entered by pirates or Thrawn.

Impossible. Their FTL drive can cross the galaxy in days and they haven't mapped the whole disk?

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/astro.html#galaxy

Proper explanation for this impossibility. The Unknown Regions have to be the halo because AOTC clearly showed the entire galaxy mapped in the map scene and implied this in dialogue as well. Not only this, but Heir to the Empire and an official galactic map from the Behind the Magic CD also contradicts this. The weight of evidence, official and canon, invalidates that mistake.

In total the halo would still contain millions of interesting destinations but because they're spread across space much larger than the disk, it wouldn't be economical to establish trade routes so far out. This zone is probably what constitutes the Unknown Regions and Wild Space.

Exactly my point. Everything is so spread out in the Unknown Regions, owning 30 x the Empire's volume isn't really much at all.

We usually marginalize people with that kind of self-important, alarmist, attitude. He's never visited the galaxy proper, he's speaking only from his own whacko opinion. Yet, his opinion seems almost self-contradictory. He says it'd freeze your blood...yet...

Yes we do, so what thats only subjective impressions. He was right in the end.

Baseless assumption contradicted by official evidence. The Yuuzhan Vong were not the species the Chiss were afraid of. Jag states in the NJO the Chiss never knew of the Yuuzhan Vong. Their only pre-NJO incursions involved the incident at Zanoma Sekot, infilitration by Nom Anor, and the scout force at Bimmiel.

I found his meaning rather clear and non contradictory, he speaks of regional powers, he obvoiusly wants the Chiss goverment, to merge or ally with the NR or Imperial Remnant.

Exactly. The Chiss can't defend themselves well from the threats in their region. The Imperial Remnant or New Republic could. Which proves my point altogether that the Chiss and the House Phalanx are, relative to the galaxy proper, weak.

[Master of Ossus]

1.) The Chiss have inferior technology, resources, and manpower to the New Republic.

They created a biological weapon in a few months that the entire NR was unable to develop in their years of combating the YV. This indicates either greater resource potential in the field, or greater technology. Additionally, their fighters have outperformed XJ X-Wings.

2.) The "House Phalanx" has recieved no support in resources, manpower, or technology since the OT. All of the difference has to be made through home-grown stuff or from the Chiss who have extremely inferior everything.

So they've either made it up (as evidenced above), or they did not originally have inferior technology.

3.) Thrawn's "House Phalanx" (the faction at Niruaan) had no support whatsoever. It's only defenses were the weak Chiss counterpart to turbolasers. Their only observed ships were Clawcraft.

True, however they were able to construct a massive and well armored fortress, with war droids that were clearly superior to the ones in the Galaxy proper.

4.) Niruaan was their headquarters and Thrawn's secret hiding spot. I think they'd defend this, their ace-in-the-hole, with the fleets you're claiming. Instead it is armed with inferior Chiss weaponry which couldn't stop an armored yacht from landing in their hangar bays and destroying all of their spacecraft.

Your example actually weakens your position by showing that the Chiss were unprepared for the attack and that they did not have time to launch any of their fighters or presumably mobilize their defenses.

5.) Niruaan is not in the right place to defend the Unknown Regions or the galaxy proper from invasion. Their enclave should be located at the diffuse edge of the galactic halo, not within the galactic disk which makes it incredibly inside the Outer Rim.

Evidently they are not well strategically positioned. This says little about their resources.

6.) Parck and the Chiss recruits regarded Thrawn almost like a demigod. They spoke nothing but vague generalizations about the so-called horrible threats. The threats spoken of were explained to Mara by the Chiss recruits. The Chiss recruits have no idea of galactic society since they know only of the Chiss homeworlds of eight little fucking planets! Parck rants about Thrawn and makes the absurd suggestion the Sith Lord Vader, alien Grand Admiral Thrawn, and little assassin Mara were all equal replacements for a pre-AOTC political aide for a right hand man! He clearly has something wrong....not to mention they sound like Hitler's ranting about Reds across the border...

Actually not true. The Chiss knew that the NR had been threatened by the Ssi-Ruuvi, which they had fought against. While the recruits may not have had any direct experience with the outside Galaxy, they DID have knowledge of the Ssi-Ruuvi, who would have had considerable experience with the NR.

7.) Niruaan's location, the Hand of Thrawn's purpose, and the nature of its defenders suggest it is a paramilitary base for Thrawn's designs on conquering the galaxy proper, not on defending the galaxy and its associated space.

To me they seemed more like they were not there to invade the Galaxy. If they had been, Thrawn would have used their forces to attack the NR during his campaign against them instead of holding them in reserve. Remember that in that war, the loss or gain of 200 obsolete ships or a single ISD was a considerable change in the situation. Moreover, they were clearly separate from his forces as they could only get indirect word of his death at Bilbringi. This is not the action of a group that is designed to conquer the entire Galaxy. This is a strategic reserve that is being held for a purpose that has little or nothing to do with the Galaxy proper, and must have something else to be doing. I see the Chiss as being the third most powerful non-YV group remaining in the Galaxy, after the New Republic or the Empire. They are certainly significant enough to throw the balance of the war in favor of the NR, because the YV currently have NO strategic reserves (as of Destiny's Way), and have lost a considerable portion of their fleet. The combined entry of the Imperial Remnant and the Chiss into the war would be an enormous problem for the YV, and even the single entry of one of those powers would force large re-deployments of troops and ships, and probably force the YV to settle into a defensive shell, having conquered only about a quarter or a third of the Galaxy as a whole.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm sorry Thrawn isn't racist enough for you to not love him. How that is anything but racism escapes me

It's not racism in the sense that others are inferior, it's just something in their society that makes certain things tabu, Thrawn already violated one of them, that doesn't make him immune to others.

Where there are rocky terrestial worlds, there will be habitable worlds, the two go hand and hand and they'll need a populace to support an economy and manpower resources for the supposed fleet. Material and manpower resources that are not there. No economy. Nada.

Rocky and terrestial does not mean habitable as I've said(mars or venus are not habitable are they, not ever rocky world is a socalled m-class planet), for any warmachine except one of the most stupidly gigantical proportions the ones in

Thus not only are the stars fewer out there, they are also less likely to have planets, both habitable and mining-worthy

Unless they construct a quadrillion ships it's not a big matter, there more than enough materials in the galaxy to sustain large civilizations.

Impossible

Possible, as the books shows.

Their FTL drive can cross the galaxy in days and they haven't mapped the whole disk?

They can and have mapped it, as in star positions, however as has been shown also on Saxton's site is an idea that the Unknown regions are inaccessible, they also thought there was a galatic barrier, there was not.

*snip*

Well as I said, I do not find that knowing the dimensional locations of the stars being a contradiction, what I mean is that the unknown regions where simply not entered or explored, such a rationalization would not create any internal conflicts.

Baseless assumption contradicted by official evidence. The Yuuzhan Vong were not the species the Chiss were afraid of. Jag states in the NJO the Chiss never knew of the Yuuzhan Vong. Their only pre-NJO incursions involved the incident at Zanoma Sekot, infilitration by Nom Anor, and the scout force at Bimmiel

He was right as in there was shit out there that would scare them shitless, so this wasn't that particular species, so? There could still be local shit in there that could give the NR a good scare, unless ofcourse he was speaking on a personal level of fright.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1.) The Chiss have inferior technology, resources, and manpower to the New Republic.

They created a biological weapon in a few months that the entire NR was unable to develop in their years of combating the YV. This indicates either greater resource potential in the field, or greater technology. Additionally, their fighters have outperformed XJ X-Wings.

All astronomy, plus descriptions of their territory would suggest their resource pool is magnitudes lower then the galactic disk's.

You make the assumption the NR was attempting to build said weapon and could not, but the Chiss could. The fact that the NR would not even engage in orbital bombardments frequently enough for the YV to know about the tactic in Rebel Stand incidates the NR would not have attempted to make such a weapon. Therefore, there's no evidence that the Chiss could make such a weapon faster then the NR.

Fact still stands that the Clawcraft has hypernavigation technology that's 4,000 years old to the rest of the galaxy.

Their charrics are vastly inferior to blasters.

A full concentration of AA fire from mostly Chiss weapons couldn't penetrate the shields of a yacht from the galaxy proper, even though you'd expect landing shuttles and gunships and dropships to be of similar scale.

2.) The "House Phalanx" has recieved no support in resources, manpower, or technology since the OT. All of the difference has to be made through home-grown stuff or from the Chiss who have extremely inferior everything.

So they've either made it up (as evidenced above), or they did not originally have inferior technology.

The Clawcraft was comissioned after Vision of the Future and it still didn't have a decent navicomputer.

3.) Thrawn's "House Phalanx" (the faction at Niruaan) had no support whatsoever. It's only defenses were the weak Chiss counterpart to turbolasers. Their only observed ships were Clawcraft.

True, however they were able to construct a massive and well armored fortress, with war droids that were clearly superior to the ones in the Galaxy proper.

You could've achieved the same result with a Super Battle Droid from AOTC if you gave it blasters too weak to harm itself but strong enough to kill unarmored humans and then gave it cortosis weave into the surface.

It would've been just as unstoppable for Luke and Mara. Their problem was that the droids put out too much fire for them to have time to use the Force to destroy them while they were simultaneously blocking blaster bolts. The droids' blasters couldn't harm themselves and neither could their lightsabres.

The fortress didn't betray any complex technology that didn't go into building Cinnigar, the Empress Teta fortress 5,000 years before ANH and before Republic was galaxy-wide.

4.) Niruaan was their headquarters and Thrawn's secret hiding spot. I think they'd defend this, their ace-in-the-hole, with the fleets you're claiming. Instead it is armed with inferior Chiss weaponry which couldn't stop an armored yacht from landing in their hangar bays and destroying all of their spacecraft.

Your example actually weakens your position by showing that the Chiss were unprepared for the attack and that they did not have time to launch any of their fighters or presumably mobilize their defenses.

How so? If the Chiss have the 1000 SDs that HDS suggested, why are none of them in orbit defending the last hope for the Empire/defense of the galaxy?

Parck purposely lured Mara to Niruaan. With all the precautions they took for Jedi, you think they would have ships in orbit a) to provide extra means of making contact with Bastion, or b) to prevent Mara from escaping, since they were so eager to keep her down they shot her thinking she'd go into a healing trance.

5.) Niruaan is not in the right place to defend the Unknown Regions or the galaxy proper from invasion. Their enclave should be located at the diffuse edge of the galactic halo, not within the galactic disk which makes it incredibly inside the Outer Rim.

Evidently they are not well strategically positioned. This says little about their resources.

Yes, it does. It suggests that they were not arrayed against supposed unnamed threats of unknown magnitude and thus would not be expected to be extremely well armed. Also, you expect me to believe that Thrawn, with all his genius, could not choose a good place for his personal fortress?

Actually not true. The Chiss knew that the NR had been threatened by the Ssi-Ruuvi, which they had fought against. While the recruits may not have had any direct experience with the outside Galaxy, they DID have knowledge of the Ssi-Ruuvi, who would have had considerable experience with the NR.

The Chiss attacked the Ssi-Ruuvi before Luke's battle group arrived. The NR had NOT been founded at that time, and the only knowledge the Ssi-ruuvi had of the galaxy was how easily they had been steamrolling little colonies (where they grabbed Sebwarra) and now Bakura. Also, this attack was made not by the recruits of Thrawn's House Phalanx, but by the Chiss Expansionary Defense Force itself.

[To me they seemed more like they were not there to invade the Galaxy. If they had been, Thrawn would have used their forces to attack the NR during his campaign against them instead of holding them in reserve. Remember that in that war, the loss or gain of 200 obsolete ships or a single ISD was a considerable change in the situation.

Wayland only had 50,000 cloning cylinders or so. Even at max output of every say....three days, they could only churn out maybe six million clones a year. Not enough for full-scale invasions. He needed those clones, all of them, and badly. Yet, as we see in Vision of the Future, he made sleeper cells of clones all over the galaxy. Thus, Thrawn apparently was making redundent contingencies for future operations. Reading the Thrawn Trilogy, it is quite evident Thrawn is a mass-murderer (he destroyed a culture because he couldn't outsmart them by analyzing their art), a racist (see Gamer quote above), and an absolute military dictator who wanted to rule the galaxy.

Now, tell me whether you think that the clone cells (which are located in the galaxy proper, not the Unknown Regions) contingency plan was designed to protect his people, or help his clone take over the galaxy?

It is clear Thrawn made redundent contingency plans, and that the Hand of Thrawn was obviously one of them, as it included a clone of himself, along with all the information and loyal fanatics. As quoted earlier, we see the members of the House Phalanx, despite their Imperial allignment, are more loyal to Thrawn personally and his goals than even to the ideals of the Empire.

Moreover, they were clearly separate from his forces as they could only get indirect word of his death at Bilbringi. This is not the action of a group that is designed to conquer the entire Galaxy.

They were his special reserve. That he kept them alone and seperate like his clone sleeper cells is irrelevent.

This is a strategic reserve that is being held for a purpose that has little or nothing to do with the Galaxy proper, and must have something else to be doing.

If Thrawn's primary designs were on defending his people, he would've stayed in the Unknown Regions and built up his fleet and worked to merge his forces with the actual Chiss civilization. But he left to sieze control of the Empire and reestablish it as an Empire under his command. Meanwhile, in case he failed, he established sleeper cells of clones throughout the galaxy proper, and he kept his brainwashed fanatics out there defending his store of information and his clone.

The sleeper cells INSIDE the galaxy proper. The fanatics guarding his clone and secrets. The fact that Thrawn left his people's defense in the UR to go conquer the galaxy. All of this is consistent with the idea that Thrawn had a contingency plan for conquering the galaxy. It doesn't fit with defending the Chiss. If they really wanted to defend the Chiss they would have surrendered the Hand of Thrawn to the Empire to secure an alliance with them, but no, they're supposed to await for their fearless leader, of course. They're a bunch of brainwashed fanatics--protecting Thrawn's ace-in-the-hole in the name of something quaint like "defending our homeland" even though Thrawn himself left that cause to conquer the galaxy.

I see the Chiss as being the third most powerful non-YV group remaining in the Galaxy, after the New Republic or the Empire.

Probably. The Peace Brigade is about the only other faction too though.

[They are certainly significant enough to throw the balance of the war in favor of the NR, because the YV currently have NO strategic reserves (as of Destiny's Way), and have lost a considerable portion of their fleet.

The war's tide has been turned in favor of the NR, and pretty much any support at all for the NR would hurt the YV.

[The combined entry of the Imperial Remnant and the Chiss into the war would be an enormous problem for the YV, and even the single entry of one of those powers would force large re-deployments of troops and ships, and probably force the YV to settle into a defensive shell, having conquered only about a quarter or a third of the Galaxy as a whole.

Complete agreement. The House Phalanx and/or the Imperial Remnant entering the war for the Republic would be the worst-case senario for the YV.