Eclipse vs Executors

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-18 06:16pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Exonerate wrote:I'd say 2. The SSDs just have to stay out of the superlaser's way.
Why? The ESSD has more than twice the number of HTL's than an Executor too, and it's shields are way way stronger.

No it doesn't. It has 500 MTLs, but zero HTLs.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 06:24pm

Ender wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Exonerate wrote:I'd say 2. The SSDs just have to stay out of the superlaser's way.
Why? The ESSD has more than twice the number of HTL's than an Executor too, and it's shields are way way stronger.
No it doesn't. It has 500 MTLs, but zero HTLs.

Please be looking at the stats again:
1 DexenGrid HS-III improved Super Laser
550 Taim & Bak Heavy Laser Cannons
500 Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries
100 Phylon Q-7 Tractor Beam Projectors
75 Borstel NK-7 Ion Cannons
10 SFS G7-XB Gravity Well Projectors

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-18 06:26pm

Ender wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Exonerate wrote:I'd say 2. The SSDs just have to stay out of the superlaser's way.
Why? The ESSD has more than twice the number of HTL's than an Executor too, and it's shields are way way stronger.
No it doesn't. It has 500 MTLs, but zero HTLs.

I assume you mean because the Eclipse's TLs are rated at 5D, while the Executor is 7D and 10D, respectively. Right?

But the "heavy laser cannons" on the Eclipse are rated at 8D.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 06:29pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:That reactor was easily like ten kilometers in diameter, IMHO.

Just calced the visuals using Wedges X-wing as a reference point, the thing he destroyed was about 10m at it's widest, from that I get that the whole reactor room is somewhere above 1060meters but not above 2km.
The widest point on the upper tower on the reactor is around 250meters.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-18 06:33pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that the "heavy laser cannons" are obviously starfighter scale, not capital.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-18 06:34pm

*Sigh*

Insert "meant to be".

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-18 06:36pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Ender wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote: Why? The ESSD has more than twice the number of HTL's than an Executor too, and it's shields are way way stronger.
No it doesn't. It has 500 MTLs, but zero HTLs.
Please be looking at the stats again:
1 DexenGrid HS-III improved Super Laser
550 Taim & Bak Heavy Laser Cannons
500 Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries
100 Phylon Q-7 Tractor Beam Projectors
75 Borstel NK-7 Ion Cannons
10 SFS G7-XB Gravity Well Projectors

You do realize heavy laser cannons are not HTLs right? You also reaqlize that the 2x number is based off of the erroneous 8km SSD not the Executor whose HTL battery count should well exceed 400 for more than 3200 HTLs. If you take the quote whereby an Executor is "worth 20 ISDs" to mean in combat value then it should have no less than 1280 HTLs. However, again, that 20x quote is based off an 8km SSD. Basically I think it would be erroneous to believe an Executor has less than 2500 HTLs.

Thus even if we take either the 500 or 550 number (not sure which you are claiming as HTLs for the Eclipse) an Executor has around 5x the number of HTLs. Any way that you cut it the number of Executors neccessarry to take out an Eclipse will be entirely determiend by the ability of the Executors to stay out of the SLs firing arc. A single well captained Executor could do the job.

On a side note have you ever considered that 2/3rds could apply to orders of magnitude as easily as the total number which would place the SL firepower in the 1e25J range.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-18 06:40pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:So? This thing pops, in pops open the crust and annhiliates a whole continents sized area sending it molten back into the mantle or into space.

Instant BDZ.
Thats maybe a few dozen TL shots worth, that makes no sense to me, and we also have to factor in that it will still have to break a planetary shield, even the weak local shield of Hoth could stand up to one Executor and five ISD's.

Bull fucking shit. The energy required to vaporize a continent is well in the 1E10 Megaton range.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 06:47pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:They don't seem to have much different surface area for weapon mountings and the extra reactor power from more volume for the Eclipse probably goes into the superlaser and grav wells.

I'd say one could do it, using its bombers w/ highest intensity weapons if it could batter the shields down somewhere and then use its bombed to puncture the hull to give it a slight firepower edge...it could do it. The Executor class needs to stay out of the superlaser's firing arc though.

LOL. The Eclipse has a much greater surface area than the Executor, and has successfully engaged entire fleets of starships. An Executor-class starship has never demonstrated that kind of resiliency, or firepower. Even if a substantial portion of its power is dedicated to the SL and to its gravity well generators (ignoring the ability of most SW ships to redirect power from various systems to others), we find that it should still have shields and weapons orders of magnitude more powerful than an Executor. I would say it would take between eight and ten Executor-class vessels to defeat an Eclipse.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 06:50pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bull fucking shit. The energy required to vaporize a continent is well in the 1E10 Megaton range.

Calm the fuck down, jesus fucking christ...

Anyhow, now that I hope you've taken some valium before you fucking burst like a pinata...

Where is that stated?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 06:55pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:You do realize heavy laser cannons are not HTLs right?

I realise their damage rating is 8D, see previous post by nightmare.
I also realise that if you want to claim the SSD to have more guns, then by all rights so should the ESSD.

On a side note have you ever considered that 2/3rds could apply to orders of magnitude as easily as the total number which would place the SL firepower in the 1e25J range.

Too little, too pathetic to warrant the weapon in the first place, even at minimum that would be like an attack from say 20 ISD's firing a few broadsides.
I've always found that number to be way way too low, at the very least I'd say my 4e29j figure is the one we should be using that I based on the downing of Coruscants shields.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 07:00pm

Look IP, just to save you your nerves I'll just say the ESSD SL is 4e29joules and leave it at that.

Ofcourse any figures are dependant on what an HTL is capable of.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 07:00pm

Look IP, just to save you your nerves I'll just say the ESSD SL is 4e29joules and leave it at that.

Ofcourse any figures are dependant on what an HTL is capable of.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-18 07:01pm

Look IP, just to save you your nerves I'll just say the ESSD SL is 4e29joules and leave it at that.

Ofcourse any figures are dependant on what an HTL is capable of.

But using the Hoth example we know that the ESSD's superlaser is superior to the Death Squadrons combined firepower, with should be around 3e26joules or 8e10MT.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-18 07:22pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:You do realize heavy laser cannons are not HTLs right?
I realise their damage rating is 8D, see previous post by nightmare.
I also realise that if you want to claim the SSD to have more guns, then by all rights so should the ESSD.

I don't care about SSDs, I care about Executors. The WEG folks created an artificial class which does not include the Executor. The ESSD figure however is consistent with everything otherwise noted on the Eclipse, in other words there is no reason to believe the WEG numbers on the ESSD don't apply to the vessel in question HOWEVER the SSD numbers do not apply to the Executor since they aren't the same ship class.

Furthermore game mechanics are, to take a paraphrase from Sansweet, the modification neccessarry for the medium. In other words game mechanics cannot be directly translated into firepower. Also you might note, if you had read all of nightmare's posts, that that was 8D of STARFIGHTER scale damage. The ESSD HTLS were 5D cap scale and the SSD's were 7D and 10D.

On a side note have you ever considered that 2/3rds could apply to orders of magnitude as easily as the total number which would place the SL firepower in the 1e25J range.
Too little, too pathetic to warrant the weapon in the first place, even at minimum that would be like an attack from say 20 ISD's firing a few broadsides.

So? If I have a weapon that outputs, in one shot, the same energy as 20 veselles firing multiple volleys then I've got a strong ass weapon. You basically shot yourself in the ass here, 1e25J per shot is still MULTIPLE orders of magnitude greater than any other weapon in the conventional Imperial inventory which, alone, justifies its existence.

I've always found that number to be way way too low, at the very least I'd say my 4e29j figure is the one we should be using that I based on the downing of Coruscants shields.

1e29J range I wouldn't mind (under my system it would mean a DS SL firepower in the 1e43J range)

*Edited for spelling errors*

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-18 07:41pm

nightmare wrote:Oh, I forgot to mention that the "heavy laser cannons" are obviously starfighter scale, not capital.

The brim quad guns of the ISD are tagged as heavy laser cannons by ICS, and they are at least MTL sized, more like HTL's.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-18 07:44pm

Appearance/size/function over name.

We have no equivalent contradiction for the name, so it sticks.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-18 10:47pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:I realise their damage rating is 8D, see previous post by nightmare.
I also realise that if you want to claim the SSD to have more guns, then by all rights so should the ESSD.

Oh, I definitely agree the Eclipse and Sov should have more weapons proportionally. I just want to sort out things.

Master of Ossus: "The Eclipse has a much greater surface area than the Executor, and has successfully engaged entire fleets of starships."

Fleets of starships.. where? Weren't both of them just blown up?

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-01-18 10:59pm

nightmare wrote:Master of Ossus: "The Eclipse has a much greater surface area than the Executor, and has successfully engaged entire fleets of starships."

Fleets of starships.. where? Weren't both of them just blown up?

Example: Empire's End. Look at the battle scene. That's an entire rebel fleet attacking Eclipse II.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-18 11:44pm

IG-88E wrote:
nightmare wrote:Master of Ossus: "The Eclipse has a much greater surface area than the Executor, and has successfully engaged entire fleets of starships."

Fleets of starships.. where? Weren't both of them just blown up?
Example: Empire's End. Look at the battle scene. That's an entire rebel fleet attacking Eclipse II.

Completely without effect, I might add.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-19 09:52am

Thanks. That assault didn't last very long though, unless I'm mistaken. It's highly annoying that all the Empire's heavy warships, the Death Stars, etc, are all taken out with covert tactics if you ask me. Effective, but very dishonest

I feel robbed of grand space battles.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-19 10:14am

The ESSD figure however is consistent with everything otherwise noted on the Eclipse, in other words there is no reason to believe the WEG numbers on the ESSD don't apply to the vessel in question

You mean beyond the fact that the ESSD is supposed to be way more powerfull not only due to it's superlaser, but could also take on entire fleets and win, something the Executor could not.

So? If I have a weapon that outputs, in one shot, the same energy as 20 velles firing multiple volleys then I've got a strong ass weapon. You basically shot yourself in the ass here, 1e25J per shot is still MULTIPLE orders of magnitude greater than any other weapon in the conventional Imperial inventory which, alone, justifies its existence

It's still too low, because the combined firepower of the Death Squadron is a minimum of 3e26j, they couldn't down the shield on Hoth in a reasonable time-frame, the Eclipse could not only shatter entire planetary shields(let alone the Hoth shield), it still had atleast somewhere along 1e26j left over that could vaporize continents or crack planetary crusts(possibly even causing planetary shattering).

Therefore I think that an absolute minimum is 3e26j> and a more logical 4e29j> even that might be too small.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-19 11:18am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Please be looking at the stats again:
1 DexenGrid HS-III improved Super Laser
550 Taim & Bak Heavy Laser Cannons
500 Taim & Bak Turbolaser Batteries
100 Phylon Q-7 Tractor Beam Projectors
75 Borstel NK-7 Ion Cannons
10 SFS G7-XB Gravity Well Projectors

Take your own advice. IT does not say Heavy TLs. It says regular ones and Heavy Laser Cannons. Heavy laser cannons are upgrades of teh 6 MT dealies. No HTLs present.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-19 11:44am

That is if those are indeed correct, the Eclipse is already shown to be way way more powerfull than an Executor, so either it's 500TL's outweigh the number of weapons on the Executor or RPG stats are simply unreliable.

At any rate the Eclips will kick ass.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-19 12:00pm

IG-88E wrote:
nightmare wrote:Master of Ossus: "The Eclipse has a much greater surface area than the Executor, and has successfully engaged entire fleets of starships."

Fleets of starships.. where? Weren't both of them just blown up?
Example: Empire's End. Look at the battle scene. That's an entire rebel fleet attacking Eclipse II.

Vice RotJ where, to quote Ackbar later in Truce at Bakura, the "entire" Rebel fleet was neccessarry to engage at Endor. The difference between A fleet and the ENTIRE fleet is important.