1 Eclipse vs. 1 Executor

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-20 02:52am

All sources say it was just a feint. The burden is on you to prove they had plans to engage and destroy the Eclipse. Something there's no official evidence for is basically your wishful thinking.

The Falcon's squad didn't have to fight the whole ship. They just drilled into engineering and siezed control of the computer banks, locked out the bridge control, and destroyed engineering so they couldn't reverse it in the hour or two it took to reach Byss.

They snuck in, hit hard, sabotaged, then destroyed the easiest means to correct the error.

They didn't have enough time. So they died.

Besides, the mission was not just knock out the Eclipse II, but also to destroy the Galaxy Gun.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 03:03am

All sources say it was just a feint. The burden is on you to prove they had plans to engage and destroy the Eclipse. Something there's no official evidence for is basically your wishful thinking

I'm saying they didn't have plans to engage it because they knew that such a thing would be folly and that the strike team insertion plan was more likely to work than trying to destroy the Eclipse through conventional means.

Besides, the mission was not just knock out the Eclipse II, but also to destroy the Galaxy Gun.

Thats not relevant in any way I can see, unless they planned to use the Galaxy Gun to destroy the Eclipse, which I believe they did in a sort of way too when the GG destroyed Byss, wich would indicate that the safest way they felt the Eclipse could be destroyed for certain was to place it next to a 4.5e41j explosion(thats about an earth sized planet being converted into energy, which is what the GG does at max power).

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-20 03:18am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Thats not relevant in any way I can see, unless they planned to use the Galaxy Gun to destroy the Eclipse, which I believe they did in a sort of way too when the GG destroyed Byss, wich would indicate that the safest way they felt the Eclipse could be destroyed for certain was to place it next to a 4.5e41j explosion(thats about an earth sized planet being converted into energy, which is what the GG does at max power).

No, my point was the feint and bordering sabotage was the whole point because they were going to use the Eclipse II to ram the Galaxy Gun then crash it into Byss. But the missile took care of Byss and the Eclipse II anyway.

My point of my last post was that they wouldn't have tried to attack it w/ torps anyway because the whole plan was the boarding op. and they wouldn't waste ammo.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 03:30am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No, my point was the feint and bordering sabotage was the whole point because they were going to use the Eclipse II to ram the Galaxy Gun then crash it into Byss. But the missile took care of Byss and the Eclipse II anyway.

My point of my last post was that they wouldn't have tried to attack it w/ torps anyway because the whole plan was the boarding op. and they wouldn't waste ammo.

Ofcourse, it would have been a waste of ammo

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 04:50pm

Alyeska wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Ok, we have one Eclipse and one Executor thats been dropped into a staged fight, they start out at 100 million km from each other, their respective mission is to kill the other one, hyperdrives may not be used to escape the fight.
IF the Eclipse can target the Executor with its SL then its endgame, otherwise the Executor closes range and uses its sueprior conventional firepower to eliminate the Eclipse.
The Secondary firepower of an Eclipse is enough to trash the Excutor. An Executor is something like 30 times the size of an ISD yet can be threatened by less then half a dozen. The Eclipse has true firepower for its size.

The Executor by comparison have, at minimum, over 1200 Heavy TLs. visually counting apparent HTL dots would suggest over 3200, meanwhile the heaviest secondary weapons on the Eclipse are 500 MEDIUM TLs. In other words in terms of secondary weaponry the Executor outguns the Eclipse by close to two orders of magnitude and possibly more as we aren't even yet counting the number of medium TLs on the Executor.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 04:54pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:IF the Eclipse can target the Executor with its SL then its endgame, otherwise the Executor closes range and uses its sueprior conventional firepower to eliminate the Eclipse.
You rely on two assumptions, the firepower discrepency of the eclipses secondary weapons, and that the shield strenght difference is not large enough to matter, token calcs on reactor power would show this not to be so.

1) The firepower discrepency is NOT an assumption. Even extrapolating the WEG numbers (to produce a ridiculous low-end) would sitll have the Executor with more Heavy TLs than the Eclipse has Medium TLs. The difference in secondary firepower is in the multiple orders of magnitude range favoring the Executor.

2) The shielding (clear enough from the lack of correlation between shield dispersion and reactor power in AOTC:ICS) is nto directly dependent on reactor power and using it as a guide is iffy at best. If you take the comparison that the Eclipse can ram other ships and note that the Executor took 3 ISDs simultaneously on one shield section then you can surmise that the difference in shield strength is within an order of magnitude.

3) This is where it leaves us:
Shields: 1 OOM in favor of Eclipse
Secondary Weapons: 2+ OOM in favor of Executor
SL: If it comes into play its the Eclipse's trump card.

Now can you see why I think an Executor, if it avoids the SL, can beat an ESSD?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:15pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:The Executor by comparison have, at minimum, over 1200 Heavy TLs. visually counting apparent HTL dots would suggest over 3200, meanwhile the heaviest secondary weapons on the Eclipse are 500 MEDIUM TLs. In other words in terms of secondary weaponry the Executor outguns the Eclipse by close to two orders of magnitude and possibly more as we aren't even yet counting the number of medium TLs on the Executor.

See now this I think is absurd, the WEG stats are clearly wrong for just about every ship, yet we are to use them for the Eclipse anyway? Why? Just because it happens to suit this particular debating need?

Given the reactor difference there is no reason the Eclipse couldn't wield a superlaser system and a secondary weapons layout of similar or maybe even twice the strenght.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:20pm

1) The firepower discrepency is NOT an assumption. Even extrapolating the WEG numbers (to produce a ridiculous low-end) would sitll have the Executor with more Heavy TLs than the Eclipse has Medium TLs. The difference in secondary firepower is in the multiple orders of magnitude range favoring the Executor

Care to prove this? As in showing calcs?
I did some basic calcs on what I could find by adding together and it was only 2.6 times more proportionally, and some other guy here got 17% in the Eclipses favor.

2) The shielding (clear enough from the lack of correlation between shield dispersion and reactor power in AOTC:ICS) is nto directly dependent on reactor power and using it as a guide is iffy at best. If you take the comparison that the Eclipse can ram other ships and note that the Executor took 3 ISDs simultaneously on one shield section then you can surmise that the difference in shield strength is within an order of magnitude.

That is an unsubstansiated assumption, also I believe someone mentioned that the Executors shields failed after taking that impact.

Now anyway, at the bare minimum the Eclipses shields are 3x times stronger given how 40 or so fighters with heavy torp layouts where able to bring down one shield on an Executor while in Empires End where they had over one hundred fighters aviable and more capital ships to bring forward to battle the Eclipse they still didn't find it a viable solution.

Now can you see why I think an Executor, if it avoids the SL, can beat an ESSD?

If your shield argument is true, which I do not believe it is.
I'm having doubts about the weapons too, or rather I don't believe the WEG figures for a second but since there is nothing else to go on...

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 05:26pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:The Executor by comparison have, at minimum, over 1200 Heavy TLs. visually counting apparent HTL dots would suggest over 3200, meanwhile the heaviest secondary weapons on the Eclipse are 500 MEDIUM TLs. In other words in terms of secondary weaponry the Executor outguns the Eclipse by close to two orders of magnitude and possibly more as we aren't even yet counting the number of medium TLs on the Executor.
See now this I think is absurd, the WEG stats are clearly wrong for just about every ship, yet we are to use them for the Eclipse anyway? Why? Just because it happens to suit this particular debating need?

Nope because, like an honest debaer, I limit myself to the available information. The WEG numbers are the ONLY numbers we have for the Eclispe and there is no way you can show them to be incorrect other than by assumption without evidence.

Given the reactor difference there is no reason the Eclipse couldn't wield a superlaser system and a secondary weapons layout of similar or maybe even twice the strenght.

There is no reason to believe you've even shown such a reactor difference. The Eclipse has a mroe powerful main weapon and you have YET to show that whatever excess reactor power it has after running that thing can power a secondary array greater than that shown in the WEG stats. You have made an assumption WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Show me your proof and I'll concede but show me some real proof.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-01-20 05:32pm

I am lost here. You go by the WEG figures for the Ecplise but you ignore the WEG info and go with visually counting for Executor.

How about making it fair. Either you take both ships are written by WEG or you take both ships as you can estimate by their first appearance in print. So the Executor gets the stats from ESB and Eclipse gets the stats from DE2.

Question? If WOTC puts out a SW ship guide to go with their Star Wars game will we start using those stats and finally drop the horrible WEG ones which are completely wrong?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 05:33pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
1) The firepower discrepency is NOT an assumption. Even extrapolating the WEG numbers (to produce a ridiculous low-end) would sitll have the Executor with more Heavy TLs than the Eclipse has Medium TLs. The difference in secondary firepower is in the multiple orders of magnitude range favoring the Executor
Care to prove this? As in showing calcs?
I did some basic calcs on what I could find by adding together and it was only 2.6 times more proportionally, and some other guy here got 17% in the Eclipses favor.

I'm gonna focus on just this right now.

1) The damage die are GAME MECHANICS and useless for actual J vs J comparison of weapons firepower.

2) The "Heavy Laser Cannon" do damage on starfighter scale so the heaviest weapons on the Eclipse (other than the SL) are the Turbolasers. In RPG convention this has always described MTLs. Thus the Eclipse has 500 MTLs.

3) Even taking the 8km SSD numbers and doubling them (to get stats for a hypothetical 16km vessel) we get 500 HTLs and 500 MTLs. This means that MTL for MTL the two ships are equal and the Executor has a 500 HTL advantage over he Eclipse.

4) If we take the "worth 20 ISDs" bit and apply it to weaponry (i.e. worth 20 ISDs in terms of combat power) we then get 1280 HTLs and an unknown number of MTLs.

5) Visual inspection reveals over 400 (420 IIRC) points on the Executor's surface which resemble (but are not neccessarily) HTL batteries which gives us 3200 HTLs and an unknown numebr of MTLs

6) All of those numbers (in ascending order even

) show the Executor with orders of magnitude more firepower outside of the Eclipse.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-20 05:39pm

Even if we assume the SSD is more powerful than an ESSED, it begs the question of why the Palpy built the ESSD, if a SSD with a superlaser would have been more deadly.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 05:45pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Cmdrwilkens wrote:2) The shielding (clear enough from the lack of correlation between shield dispersion and reactor power in AOTC:ICS) is nto directly dependent on reactor power and using it as a guide is iffy at best. If you take the comparison that the Eclipse can ram other ships and note that the Executor took 3 ISDs simultaneously on one shield section then you can surmise that the difference in shield strength is within an order of magnitude.
That is an unsubstansiated assumption, also I believe someone mentioned that the Executors shields failed after taking that impact.

Now anyway, at the bare minimum the Eclipses shields are 3x times stronger given how 40 or so fighters with heavy torp layouts where able to bring down one shield on an Executor while in Empires End where they had over one hundred fighters aviable and more capital ships to bring forward to battle the Eclipse they still didn't find it a viable solution.

Now I'll deal with this here (I'm seperating shields and weapons to avoid confusion and hopefully allow quicker resolution)

1) The unsubstantiated is bunk on your part. I am showing how the Eclispe claims the same ability which the Executor has already demonstrated. Even granted that 3 ISDs knocked down the section still does not disprove my point. Unless the Eclispe is able to wade through FLEETS (something it is never stated to be able to do) we are dealing with events on the same order of magnitude.

2) Your example continues to be useless. I'll explain why yet again:
Example A: (Bacta War) 2 squadrons of fighters supported by enough freighters to launch 20 Fighter and 60 CapShip torps per volley manage to take down one section after it has been engaged by an ISD-II and get a few hits through.

Example B (Empire's End) 72+ fighters and several CapShips don't penetrate a shield section on an Eclipse while trying to draw out its fighter complement.

The problem with example B is that you continue to believe they don't do it because they can't. You might note the casualties suffered in Bacta War by Wedge's group, had you considered that they decided not to engage the Eclipse directly intentionally not because they couldn't?

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 05:51pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:Nope because, like an honest debaer, I limit myself to the available information. The WEG numbers are the ONLY numbers we have for the Eclispe and there is no way you can show them to be incorrect other than by assumption without evidence.

I'm aware of that and therefore I accept them, reluctantly

There is no reason to believe you've even shown such a reactor difference. The Eclipse has a mroe powerful main weapon and you have YET to show that whatever excess reactor power it has after running that thing can power a secondary array greater than that shown in the WEG stats. You have made an assumption WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Show me your proof and I'll concede but show me some real proof.

What? I've shown a very very large reactor difference.

Imperial ships can readily and easily channel power from system to systems, the Eclipses main weapon does not require it to draw so and so much power.

I can refer to Darksaber where the Shockwave turns it's formidable power to shielding and took on the volleys of dozens of VSD's for example.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 06:02pm

Unless the Eclispe is able to wade through FLEETS (something it is never stated to be able to do) we are dealing with events on the same order of magnitude

This is just the impression I have gotten from the quotes describing the Eclipse, that it can indeed wade through fleets with ease.
Didn't the quotes say something to that effect?

2) Your example continues to be useless. I'll explain why yet again:
Example A: (Bacta War) 2 squadrons of fighters supported by enough freighters to launch 20 Fighter and 60 CapShip torps per volley manage to take down one section after it has been engaged by an ISD-II and get a few hits through

I believe the freighters are not that relevant, each fighter ought to be able to fire 2 torps, hence 40 fighters = 80 torps, so it's maybe say 30 fighters and 2-4 freighters.

The problem with example B is that you continue to believe they don't do it because they can't. You might note the casualties suffered in Bacta War by Wedge's group, had you considered that they decided not to engage the Eclipse directly intentionally not because they couldn't?

I have, and decided against it given how much of a longshot the other option they followed through with seemed to be.
This ship was to be the Emperor's flagship after all.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-20 06:25pm

Ahem. The bumps EGTVV marks as TLs are huge.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 06:29pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Ahem. The bumps EGTVV marks as TLs are huge.

On what?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-01-20 06:34pm

I've checked the WEG numbers now, and I'm inclined to side with CmdrWilkins.

The Executor has double the conventional firepower than an Eclipse by those. Even if I don't count the missiles, it's 69% more. It also has better sensors and shield control.

The Eclipse has 36% better fire control and 50% stronger shields. Now, if we keep in mind that this is a simple scaling, and instead use bell curves, the disrepancies increase.

While I would like to think that the Emperor's flagship should be stronger than this, I can't see any conclusive evidence for it. The increased reactor power should be meant for the superlaser. No one is going to claim that the Death Star could send it's superlaser power through the surface turbolasers, or would you. There's not even a hint it could be used for shields either.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 06:37pm

Very well, I conceed on the matter of the firepower, well I have, on the issues of the shields, I declare(well kinda, it's not like I have final say on it) it to be unknown, didn't just Cmdrwilkens say they where not reliable?

This whole matter might as well be put on ice until some new info on the Eclipse arises.

Though I personally believe that shields can be powered differently, as indicated in Darksaber.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 06:37pm

nightmare wrote:I've checked the WEG numbers now, and I'm inclined to side with CmdrWilkins.

The Executor has double the conventional firepower than an Eclipse by those. Even if I don't count the missiles, it's 69% more. It also has better sensors and shield control.

The Eclipse has 36% better fire control and 50% stronger shields. Now, if we keep in mind that this is a simple scaling, and instead use bell curves, the disrepancies increase.

While I would like to think that the Emperor's flagship should be stronger than this, I can't see any conclusive evidence for it. The increased reactor power should be meant for the superlaser. No one is going to claim that the Death Star could send it's superlaser power through the surface turbolasers, or would you. There's not even a hint it could be used for shields either.

On that very last point thank you.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 06:41pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Unless the Eclispe is able to wade through FLEETS (something it is never stated to be able to do) we are dealing with events on the same order of magnitude
This is just the impression I have gotten from the quotes describing the Eclipse, that it can indeed wade through fleets with ease.
Didn't the quotes say something to that effect?

IIRC correctly it says that it is capable of ramming other vessels...ntohing more or less than that.

2) Your example continues to be useless. I'll explain why yet again:
Example A: (Bacta War) 2 squadrons of fighters supported by enough freighters to launch 20 Fighter and 60 CapShip torps per volley manage to take down one section after it has been engaged by an ISD-II and get a few hits through
I believe the freighters are not that relevant, each fighter ought to be able to fire 2 torps, hence 40 fighters = 80 torps, so it's maybe say 30 fighters and 2-4 freighters.

Once again 10 fighters 30 freighters (20 fighter torps and 60 CapShip). If you want to keep misrepresenting the situation (or pretending that all torps are the same) then you're welcome to and I'll feel welcome to ignore the useless repitition of something already addressed.

The problem with example B is that you continue to believe they don't do it because they can't. You might note the casualties suffered in Bacta War by Wedge's group, had you considered that they decided not to engage the Eclipse directly intentionally not because they couldn't?
I have, and decided against it given how much of a longshot the other option they followed through with seemed to be.
This ship was to be the Emperor's flagship after all.

1) So you decided against it without pocuring evidence to support your assumption? You do realize what that makes it?

2) I'm not saying that it doesn't have better shields, more reactor power, and a bigger gun than an Executor. All I'm syaing is that is good captaining takes the SL out of the equation the Executor has such a ridiculous advantage in terms of secondary weaponry that the battle would be entirely one sided if not for the SL as the equalizer.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-01-20 06:50pm

I believe I conceeded, because the evidence in existence, unreliable as it might be(WEG game material after all), agrees with you.

Though personally I believe the Eclipse to have superior firepower in secondary weapons and strong enough shields to make it moot in the first place, but thats just what I personally believe.

I was not aware that you had ship counts either for the fighter incident(aren't two squadrons 24 fighters?).
I believed fighters to be able to use capship scale torps.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2003-01-20 07:04pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:I believe I conceeded, because the evidence in existence, unreliable as it might be(WEG game material after all), agrees with you.

Though personally I believe the Eclipse to have superior firepower in secondary weapons and strong enough shields to make it moot in the first place, but thats just what I personally believe.

I was not aware that you had ship counts either for the fighter incident(aren't two squadrons 24 fighters?).
I believed fighters to be able to use capship scale torps.

Whew...I agree the Eclipse should be a badass but just because the Executor is a badass as well doesn't diminish it in any way. Anyway the two squadrons in question were short several fighters, dealing with TIEs and the like.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-20 10:30pm

Honestly, you don't want WOTC to put out stats, they are worse then WEG ever was at scaling capital ship capabilities.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-01-21 08:35am

Really? Have they stated some already that I do not know about?

consequences wrote:Honestly, you don't want WOTC to put out stats, they are worse then WEG ever was at scaling capital ship capabilities.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

1 Eclipse vs. 1 Executor

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