Stormies are NOT clones!

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-29 05:27pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
neoolong wrote:Uh, Ian McDiarmid played the Emperor in the OT.
Not in TESB, during the hologram sequence. Come to think of it, I don't remember who he is. I'm sure somebody'll figure it out soon though.

That's one change I wouldn't mind seeing.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-29 05:39pm

Has anyone done the Ask Star Wars thing with this question?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 06:46pm

I did. Today. Two questions.

One to Rick asking if they intend to make another reedited special edition for the DVD release of the OT and whether they'll insert Morruson's (spl?) voice in the place of the the stormtroopers.

I asked the general questions if the stormtroopers were clones, and if so, all clones of Jango Fett.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-29 07:37pm

-waves two fingers-

All the stormtroopers are clones. You like this idea. Buy toys from Lucasfilm.

*entire board*: All stormtroopers are clones...we like this idea...we will buy toys from Lucasfilm...

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2003-01-29 09:01pm

Even if they are all clones from the same source, there is no reason why clones have to be the same height. All sorts of ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES can alter height. From diet to pathogens to random mutations early in life ... all of them can lead to changes in phenotype. Normally such things are small and not that important, however it is certainly possible.

Frankly all stormies being clones and all clones of one individual would be moronic. Can we say single point failure for a targeted virus?

I see no reason to say all stormies are clones.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 09:13pm

tharkûn wrote:Even if they are all clones from the same source, there is no reason why clones have to be the same height. All sorts of ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES can alter height. From diet to pathogens to random mutations early in life ... all of them can lead to changes in phenotype. Normally such things are small and not that important, however it is certainly possible.

The whole point of cloning would be to make time-saving conviences such as logistical ease. They would almost certainly be groomed for identical physical traits. Especially since the AOTC clonetroopers were.

tharkûn wrote:Frankly all stormies being clones and all clones of one individual would be moronic. Can we say single point failure for a targeted virus?

I see no reason to say all stormies are clones.

I agree, but Lucas' comments are stretching our arguments against it strongly, and if he makes an unambiguous "all the stormtroopers are clones" or goes back and incidates it some stupidass reediting of the OT, we have no choice.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-29 09:21pm

Well GL saying "All stormies are clones," doesn't necesarily mean "All clones are of Jango," or "All clones are made from Kamino." It could just mean that they are all clones of somebody, will woul dmake a helluva lot more sense, anyways.

Theory: After rigorous physical and mental excersises for X period of time, the best fo the best are picked out to be the avatars for stormtroopers. The roster in frequently updated so new recruits can be trained for clone avatars also. Different avatars will yield different troops that specialize in different things, instead of the jack-of-all trades Jango clones. Which probably aren't half as good as the Empire's specialized stormies at what they do-ie Stormies being shocktroopers, scouters being well...scouters ect.

Obviously, cloning from different planets is self-explatory. Throw in the possibility of "flash impriting" an exsisting soldiers consiousness into the clones, nd the job becomes even easier.

This would explain the different sizes, of the troops right there, since clones should NOT have the same accent, go figure. It would also explain away Kamino being the only source of clones.

Comments?

EDIT: Just like to say, that while this makes more sense, its doubtful GL would ever consider such a thing, but until EpIII smacks this theory down, I'll stick by it.

PS. Does anybody actually have aquoteof Gl saying he was going to redub/edit to make stormies clones?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 09:24pm

No it doesn't explain sizes. For convience in a society that can grow human bodies to adulthood in a vat in a year w/out problem, genetically enhance the growth cycle at will, and standardize their mental characteristics....and they were able to regulate physical size from variables in the past.....why the fuck would they have short stormies and tall stormies. They'd all be the same height because they have the technology to do it and there's no reason they wouldn't make it easy on themselves and standardize.

Obviously, ANH the film shows stormtroopers that are not clones.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-29 09:29pm

Maybe, although I don't see why they'd need to go the extra mile to readjust their heights. Stormtrooper armor seems to be a one-size fits all affair, since Han and Luke didn't have any problem slipping into their armor in ANH.

Anyways, my own little pet theory. Cause after GL started shaking things up, I don't know what to believe. Although I'd like to believe stormies weren't clones, GL's swatted that idea down already. *shrugs* We'll just have to wait and see for what Ep III says.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 10:35pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Maybe, although I don't see why they'd need to go the extra mile to readjust their heights. Stormtrooper armor seems to be a one-size fits all affair, since Han and Luke didn't have any problem slipping into their armor in ANH.

"I can't see anything in this helmet"

Han had no problem. Likely the suits are made to fit their owners. Logistics and combat affectiveness would do well to have perfectly fitting and operating equipment for each individual. With such an advantage, why would they simply stop from AOTC to ANH? You're starting to really stretch credibility for yourself, I'd be careful now.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-29 10:50pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:"I can't see anything in this helmet"

Well I was actually reffering to size here. But I doubt Luke new how to use the helmet, being a lowly farm boy. Han didn't seem to like his either, he slipped it off the moment he had the detention block troops taken care of. Also notice that whenever the stormies talked in ANH they clicked on and off their helmet comlinks. Meanwhile, Han and Luke used theirs and we didn't hear them click it on or off. So we can guess they didn't even know the basics of talking in those things!

Han had no problem. Likely the suits are made to fit their owners. Logistics and combat affectiveness would do well to have perfectly fitting and operating equipment for each individual. With such an advantage, why would they simply stop from AOTC to ANH?

I need to straighten something out here: you're for some clones some recruits right? If so, if we even say only one in five troops are recruits, that's still a LOT of armor to customize for each individual trooper, verses simply creating one set of adjustable armor. A one size fits all thing again, is much easier. Its not a problem with one clone like Jango, but once we start talking BILLIONS of individual troops, it becomes much more pratical to make one easily adjustable outfit.

Even different sizes of troops (such as in my little pet theory) need not personalize armor with this set up.

You're starting to really stretch credibility for yourself, I'd be careful now.

Am I? Maybe I just can't help myself. If my agrument is flawed I'm sure you'll point out my mistakes anyways.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 10:53pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I need to straighten something out here: you're for some clones some recruits right? If so, if we even say only one in five troops are recruits, that's still a LOT of armor to customize for each individual trooper, verses simply creating one set of adjustable armor. A one size fits all thing again, is much easier. Its not a problem with one clone like Jango, but once we start talking BILLIONS of individual troops, it becomes much more pratical to make one easily adjustable outfit.

Even different sizes of troops (such as in my little pet theory) need not personalize armor with this set up.

My argument had nothing to do with the recruits. My point was the drastically different physical size of the stormtroopers was irreconcilable with the idea they are all clones. With their technology there was simply no reason they'd just make logistics worse and more expensive. It makes no sense for them to be clones.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-29 11:07pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:My argument had nothing to do with the recruits. My point was the drastically different physical size of the stormtroopers was irreconcilable with the idea they are all clones.

Yeah, I know, all clones=stupid. But I'm just trying to work with what GL said.

With their technology there was simply no reason they'd just make logistics worse and more expensive.

Aside form the fact that I think your making adjustable armor seem far more terrible than it actually is, there may be a reason for it.

It's said (in the OT:VD) that even officers don stormtrooper armor on certain missions. Thats plenty of officers to be making customized armor for, and it would save alot of time and money to make adjustable armor. Even better when they stuck in the field and they need armor fast, or they're dead, all armor one size is bad for him then too.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-29 11:19pm

I have no issues w/ the compromises, though I'll either ignore the sizes and think most/all stormies are clones or think some are volunteers and some are clones.

My point was not that you CAN'T reconcile, but it's bound to be full of doublethink, stretching credibility, low on common sense, and make little sense.

I didn't say you shouldn't try or it's impossible.

Just it probably will still not make sense regardless.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-29 11:23pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I have no issues w/ the compromises, though I'll either ignore the sizes and think most/all stormies are clones or think some are volunteers and some are clones.

My point was not that you CAN'T reconcile, but it's bound to be full of doublethink, stretching credibility, low on common sense, and make little sense.

I didn't say you shouldn't try or it's impossible.

Just it probably will still not make sense regardless.

Yeah I agree whole-heartedly. GL put a weird situation in our hands, and trying to come up with an explanation that is going to make a lot of sense is gonna be hard. We'll just have to see how EpIII comes out before we shut the door on the topic I guess. Till then all we can do is keep guessing.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-01-30 03:23pm

Illuminatus Primus said:

Also, please, SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE REDO OT QUOTE FROM GL BEFORE ANYONE MENTIONS IT AGAIN.

Everybody claims they've heard of it. No one, NO ONE, backs that up w/ evidence.

Ask and you shall recieve...

http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=16421

Proof that Lucasfilm has stated that Stormtroopers are clones.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-01-30 03:57pm

Yes, that's Lucasfilm proof. But where is George's actual lines? How does this book play into the canon. It's not radio drama, movie, or movie-based novel, so it's sure as hell not pure. I think what we're looking for here is GL's actual quote. This is an article, true, but it's not the spoken word of GL.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-01-30 04:31pm

So a document published by Lucasfilm in 1981 is not canon enough for you?

The article fits all existing film canon, and is consistent with the material in AoTC.
I. The stormtroopers in the article and clonetroopers in AoTC have their ability to think specifically mentioned.
II. The article mentions an accelerated growth period followed by a training cycle which is consistent with AoTC.
III. The article mentions that the stormtroopers start their training as children, which also follows what we see in AoTC.

So what sounds more accurate to you?

#1 A document created by Lucasfilm in 1981 detailing the origins of Stormtroopers that is internally consistent with existing canon sources.

Or

#2 A loosely linked set of novels, comic books, and video games that were written by independant authors that have been shown time after time to be inconsistent and contradictory with canon material.

From http://www.starwars.com/databank/organi ... s/bts.html

The titular clone troopers of Episode II were designed to strongly hint at their eventual evolution into the Empire's stormtrooper ranks.

I am sorry if you want your EU to the 'real story', but I think that you are wanting Stormtroopers to not be clones to the point that you are ignoring official information.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-01-30 04:43pm

I'm not ignoring "Official Information". The fact of the matter is that it is just that. "Official". It's not canon. It's not a movie. It's not a novel based on one. It's not a radio-drama. Therefore, it's not canon. I'm not saying that it should be ignored. I'm just saying that in the fact that we're trying to settle a debate point here, throwing more "official" info into the mix doesn't solve the problem. We've already got plenty of it.

The point was that someone posted a request for the GL quote, not this article. The article has less merit to GL quote. Being that GL is the creator, his word is essentially the word of god....whether ANY of us want it one way or another.

My personal opinion isn't that "I want the EU version". Don't make assumptions about people. I generally agree with most of the populace here that Stormies are a mix of people drafted/volunteered AND clones. This is why you don't assume.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-01-30 05:16pm

Very well, try this link then.

http://www.episode-x.com/episode3/lucas ... orms.shtml

TPM DVD Commentary:
GL: When we have the attack of the droids here it was important to establish these droids as slightly goofy, rather than ominous, and not very good shots, and they have absolutely no defense against a Jedi and a laser sword. They're just hopeless. So the idea was that as we go on, the problem of developing better combat technology is established in this movie and then it will be dealt with further in Episode II… the failings of a robotic army in terms of all being controlled by one source and not being as swift as a human is a theme that we play out through all the movies.

TPM DVD Commentary:
GL: The lynch pin of this plot device of the droids being controlled by one source is based on the inability of the Neimodians to give up control to the droids, because if they could think for themselves and do things on their own, they would worry about having this giant army that might take them over, because they would assume that their way of thinking, which is greedy and power driven to consume and ravage…eventually the droids would do the same thing and take over them.

Starlog Magazine: Boba and Jango Fett have important roles in the "Attack of the Clones". Were they in your original backstory, or is their involvement the result of Boba's incredible popularity?
GL: Boba had a connection to stormtroopers. I sort of built him out of the stormtroopers, and I knew stormstroopers were clones. Exactly what that relationship was I hadn't really established yet. I knew Boba was a clone, but I didn't know how all of that fit together. I knew that the clones were made out of a bounty hunter, and when I got to this story, I thought "Well, gee, the best bounty hunter is Boba Fett. And rather than him maybe being a clone, he could be the originator of the clones." Most of the pieces were there, but I actually put them all together in this one.

AOTC DVD Commentary:
GL: It wasn't until I started working on this script that I decided to make Boba the son of the Original Clone. Before he was just another clone who was for whatever reason had sort of broken loose from the stormtroopers. I didn't really go into detail at that point, even in my mind or in the backstory about any more of it other than that they were connected but early on the stormtroopers were meant to be clones.

AOTC DVD Commentary:
GL: Throughout as we go through the movie there's all little funny moments like Jango bumping his head because in Star Wars one of the stormtroopers bumps his head on the door as they leave the control room on the Death Star and I thought wouldn't it be funny if that's a trait that Jango has. When he puts his helmet on and everything he can't really see that well and so he's constantly bumping his head and that trait gets cloned into all the stormtroopers and that's why they keep bumping their heads

How does this fit your definition of canon?

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-01-30 05:32pm

*sigh*. Steven, please CAREFULLY read people's responses.

Me wrote: The point was that someone posted a request for the GL quote, not this article. The article has less merit to GL quote. Being that GL is the creator, his word is essentially the word of god....whether ANY of us want it one way or another.

Did it sink in yet? No? Read it twenty more times, maybe then you're brain might be able to comprehend these things called letters that form words, which are used to form sentences, which are used to convey language.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-30 05:32pm

Honestly...not much.

Until seen in a movie...Lucas can claim this, but much like Boba Fett is a dead as a doornail...it's akin to Roddenberry going "Kirk's as Gay as pink dolphin in a tutu."...but if it's never shown...eh.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-01-30 05:35pm

BTW, Steven, it's not MY definetion of canon. It's THE definition of canon.

Ghostrider, you hit the nail on the head. GL calls the shots around here. If he says they're clones, they're clones. It's his work, so if he puts it in the movies, then that's how it is. Until then, we are left with this debate and what he says.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-30 05:39pm

Excuse me, just an innocent question.

200 gigatons in NO WAY appears in ANY of the films, OT and Prequel era. Yet we accept it as fact because of ICS. GL says their clones, yet we CANNOT accept that, oh no, that can't be. Yet the creator of Wars says this is so in his commentaries in the DVD even goes so far to say that "Gee I hope we were pretty clear that these are the future stormtroopers." Sorry GL guess you weren't clear enough for some people.

Kind of reminds me of how some Trekkies go runing around in circles going "NO, I can't hear you! No 200 what?!? No I can't hear you!!! It's not in the films so thats not right!"

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-30 05:42pm

True 200 GT is never shown, but like I said it's akin if he claimed Greedo shot first before the SE.

Claiming all Stormies are clones yet having direct contradiction with visuals(to which he has to literally change, and if he does...then okay), sorry he shows us they aren't unless they have some radical cloning method that allows Jango to have different heights.

Thus he is contradicting himself until he goes and alters it.