Snowtroopers - against canon

[Darth Servo]

A few snow troopers are undoubtably elite soldiers. This doesn't mean they all are. Hasty Generalization fallacy.

Please?
I think my word "elite" does not mean the same as yours. In my words elite means that the soldier is part of a highlighted unit. Like all SS troopers were elite soldiers regardless of their actual combat experience.

Stormtroopers and snow troopers don't have any rank insignia on their uniforms like the clone troops do in AOTC so you can't say they aren't divided into ranks.

Even SS troops still had different ranks within the group.

[vakundok]

Stormtroopers and snow troopers don't have any rank insignia on their uniforms like the clone troops do in AOTC so you can't say they aren't divided into ranks.

Even SS troops still had different ranks within the group.

The snowtrooper who got orders from Veers had a normal rank plate. The stormtroopers (sandtroopers?) on Tatuin were differenced by color.

"they don't have any rank insignia ... so you can't say they aren't divided into ranks" Sorry, my english is too poor to understand it. However I have never said that they are not divided by ranks within an elite unit. The title "elite" is earned and worn by the unit not the lone soldier.

[Darth Servo]

Fine. On Leia's ship in ANH, Vader was escorted by troops wearing the standard Stormtrooper uniform. At the battle of Yavin, Vader's two TIE pilot escorts had identical unifors to every other TIE pilot. At Bespin, Vader was escorted by troops with the standard uniform. On the DS in ROTJ, most of the troops escorting Vader wore the standard uniform.

Being an escort to Vader was not something only the "snow troopers" got to do, therefore there is nothing special about snow troops above and beyond any other unit of Imperial Troops.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Fine. On Leia's ship in ANH, Vader was escorted by troops wearing the standard Stormtrooper uniform. At the battle of Yavin, Vader's two TIE pilot escorts had identical unifors to every other TIE pilot. At Bespin, Vader was escorted by troops with the standard uniform. On the DS in ROTJ, most of the troops escorting Vader wore the standard uniform.

Being an escort to Vader was not something only the "snow troopers" got to do, therefore there is nothing special about snow troops above and beyond any other unit of Imperial Troops.

I think you may be misinterpreting what vakundok is saying.

The snowtroopers are an elite formation in the following sense:

1. Standard Imperial stormtroopers are elite troops compared to their regular Imperial Army counterparts.

2. Imperial snowtroopers are even more elite in that they are stormtroopers trained to operate in an exotic environment that normal stormtroopers would find it difficult to operate in for any length of time.

National military forces often have "elite" units, and not all elite units are on the same level of the totem pole in terms of prestige or "eliteness."

As an example from the US Army (though not always with the technically proper unit designations, but rather with the popular designations), take the 1st Infantry Division, 10th Mountain Division, the 82nd and the 101st Airborne, the Army Rangers, the Special Forces, Delta Force, and whatever lot is even more hush hush beyond that. Each unit is elite in its own right, but each is a tad more "elite" in terms of prestige than the last, though there may be bitter arguments about the precise degree of eliteness.

[vakundok]

Patric Ogaard: Thanks.

Well I try to summerize this topic:

Question 1: Are the snowtroopers stormtroopers or army troopers?
Their equipment can support both answers. I think, besides of their equipment only one thing remained: If they are army troopers why were the (generaly more competent) stormtroopers left behind (above )? I have no credible reason for that so I support that they are stormtroopers.

Question 2: Are the equipment and armor of the snowtroopers exclusively produced for a specialized division or all stormtroopers / army troopers have those?
(The second answer can lead to questioning whether the snowtroopers are really a separated fraction within the stormtroopers / army troopers.) I think the second is more realistic.

However I am subjectiv.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Patric Ogaard: Thanks.

Well I try to summerize this topic:

Question 1: Are the snowtroopers stormtroopers or army troopers?
Their equipment can support both answers. I think, besides of their equipment only one thing remained: If they are army troopers why were the (generaly more competent) stormtroopers left behind (above )? I have no credible reason for that so I support that they are stormtroopers.

Question 2: Are the equipment and armor of the snowtroopers exclusively produced for a specialized division or all stormtroopers / army troopers have those?
(The second answer can lead to questioning whether the snowtroopers are really a separated fraction within the stormtroopers / army troopers.) I think the second is more realistic.

However I am subjectiv.

vakundok: you're welcome.


To question 1:

Based on assorted official sources, snowtroopers are a specialized arm of the standard Imperial stormtroopers. Various other stormtrooper units are specialized for aquatic operations, operations in high radiation areas, on volcanic worlds, in desert environments, etc.

Based strictly on looking at the movies, and ignoring absolutely everything else, logic would dictate that the stormtroopers are the same guys as the standard, black-uniformed naval troopers, simply wearing an armored battle dress instead of normal uniforms. Just the armored diapers that are part of stormtrooper armor would be a good reason not to always wear the armor, since they should be uncomfortable to sit in. Similarly, the snowtroopers are obviously just normal troopers outfitted with specialized gear to deal with an unusual environment, and their being commanded by a general (Veers) whose battle dress is similar to that of snowtroopers, and whose regular uniform is different from that of stormtrooper officers, indicates that the snowtrooper forces, who are never called snowtroopers in the movie, are Army soldiers. Since these logical interpretations go against every bit of information provided by George Lucas (AKA: The Final Authority) and countless writers, though, snowtroopers are specialist stormtroopers.


To question 2:

There is no really good reason why the equipment used by the snowtroopers should not be available to other forces. The book Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections, for instance, shows that scout troopers operating in concert with snowtroopers also wear heated suits and snowtrooper chest plates, and that they carry the snowtrooper backpack on the little cargo bed behind the rider's seat.

Also, the Imperial Army, CompForce and the Imperial Stormtroopers all have to operate in adverse environments at times, so that having units equipped and trained to deal with those environments is perfectly logical. When not operating in the environment they are specialized for they would likely wear the standard gear of their respective service. Thus, snowtroopers supporting regular stormtroopers in a boarding action would be indistinguishable from the regular stormtroopers.

[vakundok]

Patric Ogaard: It still leaves the evolved first question (If they are army troopers why were the stormtroopers left behind?) open.

Has Lucas said personally anything about army or just Lucasfilm? The difference is huge.

A side note on Veers' and the AT-ST drivers' uniform: Their helmet needs to be open to show Veers is Veers and Solo is Solo.

I think about whether there are army at all or not. There is no mention of army above official level. (Nor the snowtrooper as long as I know. It may came with the action figure.) Read these two:

1:
It is interesting that Ozzel and Veers have identical service suit.
Ozzel:
Olive-grey trousers and double-breasted tunic.
Olive-grey cap may be optional for senior officers.
Black belt with silver buckle; no utility boxes.
Short-sleeved black gloves. Optional?
Black boots.
Badge of rank squares at left breast.
Rank code cylinders in pockets at either shoulder.
Usually no blaster holster

Veers:
Olive-grey trousers and double-breasted tunic.
Olive-grey cap may be optional for senior officers.
Black belt with silver buckle; no utility boxes.
Short-sleeved black gloves. Optional?
Black boots.
Badge of rank squares at left breast.
Rank code cylinders in pockets at either shoulder.
Usually no blaster holster
-as examined by Curtis Saxton.

They are definitely not from the same group, but have similar level rank. Maybe Veers' battle dress is not an army battle dress but an officer battle dress.

2: The AT-ST drivers' uniform is very similar (if not identical) to technicians' except the helmet and the gloves. Both the helmet and the gloves seem realistic since they are out on the fields.

[Sardaukar]

I've recently been thinking about what'd be underneath the attachment on the front of the snowtrooper helmet
probably something similar to a standard stormtrooper's breathing filters (maybe even something a bit lighter, similar to clonetroopers...)

The 'fabric' (looks plastic sometimes) cover would also help keeping snow out of the filters as well as retaining heat (assuming the trooper is not getting his air from his backpack).

[Kurgan]

Yeah, it seems like the helmet of the Snow Troopers has more in common with that of the Imperial Red Guards than the regular Stormtroopers.

Maybe it is better camoflage? No idea.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Yeah, it seems like the helmet of the Snow Troopers has more in common with that of the Imperial Red Guards than the regular Stormtroopers.

Maybe it is better camoflage? No idea.

How about this? The helmet is part of an outfit designed for a specific, challenging environment. Therefore, there's no need to complicate things with all the gear that a stormtrooper helmet carries over from its role as part of what amounts to an armored space suit. The assorted air intake nozzles, heat sinks, exposed speaker grilles and other components of a typical stormtrooper helmet would ultimately just get in the way.

A good part of a stormtrooper's standard armor appears designed specifically to keep the trooper cool, a feature that would be more a liability than an asset in a cold atmosphere. The snowtrooper helmet simply does away with those features that would reduce snowtrooper efficiency in the environment that is their specialty, and using the pre-existing Imperial Army helmet to provide the base should ease manufacture.

Similarly, TIE pilots and AT-AT pilots (Navy and Army personnel respectively) wear helmets obviously closely related to the standard stormtrooper helmet but differing from it in various details.

[Kurgan]

Maybe it's just a semi-permeable plastic layer over a modified version of the familiar Stormtrooper external filters/etc. that we're used to.

Of course, I'm sure there's some tech book someplace explaining it or showing a cutaway view. ; )

[Star-Blighter]

Imho the permeable mask serves as both a heater and a heat reflector in order to reduce thermal emisions and underneath it is an insulated mask made out of some other type of insulating fabric (which is again permeable). I would doubt very much that the heat reflector is the only facial protection against cold.