What if a Star Forge was found in the OT/PT?(KOTOR spoilers)

[Samuel]

As opposed to what, the military sending out its own proto-World Devastators to mine Anonymous Asteroid Field P3X-224978956441214 in the odd end of Nowhere in an unexplored arm of the galaxy and using the materials to build ships from scratch, like Durga did on the cheap with his Darksaber? They built Death Stars in the middle of nowhere in complete secrecy and in a matter of months, using self-replicating robots; Star Forges just cannot compete.

You do realize the Star Forge is about a billion times larger than World Devastators, right? And that it extracts materials directly from a star. How is that not infinitely more effective?

Well, there are some minor problems. First it requires dark side users. Also, it feeds of pain, suffering and death... and tries to increase it. Such as by creating a disease. Which is really bad.

As for size, I don't think it is a billion times larger. The minimalism varies, but having the Infinite Empire have only a trillion slaves means that they only have so much labor output- especially since they use slaves for work (why?).

I assumed that in typical sci fi fashion that the Sith ships were immune to the field, either from manipulation of the field or modifications to the Sith ships. Evil Bastila is able to land on the planet after all when the field is still in effect as I recall.

The Sith had a bunch of weird toys at the time. Sort of odd given the tech stagnation.

[Darth Tanner]

First it requires dark side users.

Does it actually require a force user to maintain production? I thought the Jedi Malak was plugging in where simply for his sick little experiments at boosting his own powers rather than to keep the station running. Malaks little rant at the end of the game seemed to indicate that while Revan was running the show he more or less ignored the force side of the station, using it solely as a manufacturing base.

Such as by creating a disease. Which is really bad.

It created the plague that killed the Rakata Empire? Where is that established?

[TC Pilot]

Well, there are some minor problems. First it requires dark side users.

No it doesn't.

Also, it feeds of pain, suffering and death... and tries to increase it. Such as by creating a disease. Which is really bad.

True, it does take Dark Side emotions and magnify them. But the "creating a disease" part is pure fan fiction.

Here's what Malak has to say about it: "In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us."

As for size, I don't think it is a billion times larger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5xDSZnok4s

The Star Forge is visibly hanging above a star in that cutscene, and in many more like it. It's huge, plain and simple.

The minimalism varies, but having the Infinite Empire have only a trillion slaves means that they only have so much labor output- especially since they use slaves for work (why?).

So what? The Star Forge was their crowning achievement. You think they're going to be stingy when it comes to building the thing?

[Illuminatus Primus]

In Scenario (1), even if Palpatine gets no significant use out of it through the movie era, it would come in very handy in the Dark Empire era. Palpatine spent a lot of time and effort rebuilding his power base by subverting existing forces and still had a hard time matching the New Republic, being forced to resort to superweapons to gain a military advantage.

Factually incorrect. The Empire steadily increased its area of control from the coalition of the Emperor's Ruling Circle and the six warlords to the reunification and even after Palpatine's death at the end of Dark Empire. The use of the Galaxy Gun merely sealed a fait accompli.

I defer to Publius:

The State of the Galaxy

Dark Empire states that "within days of Thrawn's downfall, surviving members of the Emperor's Ruling Circle, in concert with six former Starfleet commanders," formed a coalition and attacked the New Republic-held Core Worlds, such that The Essential Chronology states that "within days" this coalition had "conquered several key systems" (among these the Dark Empire Sourcebook lists "the nearby Kaikielius and Metellos systems"), culminating in an assault on Coruscant itself in "Retreat from Coruscant." Coruscant was declared an open planet and the New Republic relocated its seat of government to Da Soocha V, in the Cyax system.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions the Imperial siege of Caprioril, a New Republic sector capital, and Coruscant and the Core Worlds describes the Imperial capture of Esseles III, Ralltiir, Duro II, and Corulag. Shortly after the events of Dark Empire, the Dark Empire Sourcebook states that the Empire had "regained the Core Worlds, and still holds the Deep Galactic Core, as well as many high industry regions beyond the Core Worlds," and resupplied from "power bases in the Mid-Rim and the reclaimed Inner Rim, where industrial planets depend on wartime economies to survive"; the campaign resulted in "linking Imperial holdings all the way to Wild Space."

By the time of Dark Empire II, the Essential Chronology states that the Empire had "consolidated the forces remaining in the newly subjugated Core and Colonies regions"; it adds that by Empire's End the Empire had "regained key territories in the Inner and Outer Rim." By this time, the Empire was the dominant power in the Deep Core, the Core Worlds, the Colonies, and the Inner Rim, with significant holdings in the Mid-Rim, Outer Rim, and Wild Space. The New Republic retained some territories throughout, and may have retained dominance in the Expansion Region.

Being able to churn out masses of fresh firepower would greatly speed up that process and make the Dark Empire considerably stronger.

"The Dark Empire"? Anyway, in general you are right. It would probably be a useful asset. But we really don't know the output capacity of the Star Forge compared to the resurgent Empire's conventional productive resources.

[Samuel]

It created the plague that killed the Rakata Empire? Where is that established?

True, it does take Dark Side emotions and magnify them. But the "creating a disease" part is pure fan fiction.

Here's what Malak has to say about it: "In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us."

It is a guess. Given that at the same time they were inexplicably cut off from the force I'd say the Star Forge might have been responsible.

The Star Forge is visibly hanging above a star in that cutscene, and in many more like it. It's huge, plain and simple.

And it is small in the final battle shot. Of course the fleet also is huge in that image so it could just be the inevitable result of having a factory that consumes your own star.

KoTOR is a bit inconsistent. You sneak aboard in a freighter. Apparently the Sith crew their fighters with incompetants.

So what? The Star Forge was their crowning achievement. You think they're going to be stingy when it comes to building the thing?

Their definition of impressive is probably different that the rest of the galaxy. And this was probably their first attempt at such a large scale project. They were rather small- one thousand worlds or something. Remember they used slave labor to build the temple on Dantonie- I doubt they did anything different for the Star Forge.

Also I don't think solar systems typically have enough mass to make something that big.

[Darth Paxis]

KoTOR is a bit inconsistent. You sneak aboard in a freighter. Apparently the Sith crew their fighters with incompetants

To be fair, the Ebon Hawk was flying with several Jedi fighters, is pretty fast for a ship of its class, and depending on which ending you choose might be piloted by a Force user.

I assumed that in typical sci fi fashion that the Sith ships were immune to the field, either from manipulation of the field or modifications to the Sith ships. Evil Bastila is able to land on the planet after all when the field is still in effect as I recall.

I'm not sure how you would account for Republic ships that defected to the Sith but aren't the ships created by the Star
Forge immune to the field?

[Darth Hoth]

You do realize the Star Forge is about a billion times larger than World Devastators, right? And that it extracts materials directly from a star. How is that not infinitely more effective?

Show me why extracting materials from a star and building up from there is necessarily more effective. As Darth Wong would say, real-life engineering is based on building the best and simplest machine for the job, not the fanciest. We have every reason to suppose that building from hydrogen and up is a longer, more difficult, and more energy-intensive process than simply refining metal out of asteroids unless we see it demonstrated otherwise.

Again, we do not see any hugely impressive production on part of the Star Forge in the videogame. It is a gimmick, not a war-winning wunderwaffe.

I assumed that in typical sci fi fashion that the Sith ships were immune to the field, either from manipulation of the field or modifications to the Sith ships. Evil Bastila is able to land on the planet after all when the field is still in effect as I recall.

That is never stated, from what I can remember, at least. On the other hand, I am fairly certain that she did have to lower the shield to leave the planet in that oddly-shaped fighter. And if the field was so impenetrable, how could the Sith get there at all in the first place?

The planets surface is littered by ships, including Republic cruisers and vast ships that have crashed down in the oceans.

First, we see too little of the planet to say that with any certainty, so this is an obvious no-limits extrapolation. Second, how does this in any way prove that they, too, had not come close to the planet?

[TC Pilot]

It is a guess. Given that at the same time they were inexplicably cut off from the force I'd say the Star Forge might have been responsible.

Of course it was responsible. You can't be a Dark Sider and have your emotions negatively reinforced for long without bad things happening to you

And it is small in the final battle shot. Of course the fleet also is huge in that image so it could just be the inevitable result of having a factory that consumes your own star.

What, you mean the shot where the Republic fleet knocks out an orbital stabilizer? Where the Republic capital ships are dwarfed a thousand times over by a single tower at the very top of the Star Forge sphere?

KoTOR is a bit inconsistent. You sneak aboard in a freighter. Apparently the Sith crew their fighters with incompetants.

Or maybe it's because the fleet was distracted fighting the Republic fleet on the opposite side of the system?

Also I don't think solar systems typically have enough mass to make something that big.

Good thing there are billions more solar systems out there to take raw materials from.

Show me why extracting materials from a star and building up from there is necessarily more effective.

Because there's about a billion times more materials to draw from a star than any asteroid field out there.

Again, we do not see any hugely impressive production on part of the Star Forge in the videogame.

Well, it produces capital ships, and enough of them to conquer most of the Republic outside the Core Worlds with. That already makes it better than World Devastators.

It is a gimmick, not a war-winning wunderwaffe.

I'm a bit dissapointed in you. Usually the "La la la I don't see it so it can't exist" line of argument is something I only see Trektards come up with. Yes, we don't see the Star Forge's production capacity, but that means nothing. It's presented as a gigantic factory, with descriptors like "infinite" thrown around, and almost the sole source of the Sith war machine that's conquered most of the galaxy.

[Darth Hoth]

Because there's about a billion times more materials to draw from a star than any asteroid field out there.

There is also billions of times more material scattered in empty planets or asteroid fields than fleet construction will ever require for any practical purposes. Assembly from such materials should still be much easier and quicker a process than transmuting hydrogen on a sub-atomic level.

Well, it produces capital ships, and enough of them to conquer most of the Republic outside the Core Worlds with. That already makes it better than World Devastators.

I'm a bit dissapointed in you. Usually the "La la la I don't see it so it can't exist" line of argument is something I only see Trektards come up with. Yes, we don't see the Star Forge's production capacity, but that means nothing. It's presented as a gigantic factory, with descriptors like "infinite" thrown around, and almost the sole source of the Sith war machine that's conquered most of the galaxy.

Not once have I seen any evidence that the Star Forge was "almost the sole" producer of Sith warships; all the in-game dialogue speaks of is that the Sith appear better equipped than they should be, by the Republic's assessment. While some of this might be due to the Star Forge, by no means would that be all of it. The Sith are a major power, recognised as the Republic's equal by neutrals such as Manaan, and obviously have other factories and shipyards at work. Everything we hear is speculation with no hard numbers, and the upper limit on its direct demonstrated performance remains unimpressive. Characters are fallible, and with only hyperbolic dialogue to go by I am wary of ascribing to it near-magical abilities.

[TC Pilot]

Assembly from such materials should still be much easier and quicker a process than transmuting hydrogen on a sub-atomic level.

What's funny is that's precisely what World Devastators do with their "molecular furnace."

Not once have I seen any evidence that the Star Forge was "almost the sole" producer of Sith warships;

In KOTORII, G0-T0 reveals that after Revan departed from known space (i.e. after the Star Forge was destroyed), production dropped off to practically nothing.

While some of this might be due to the Star Forge, by no means would that be all of it.

The Sith never managed to reach the Core Worlds, which is where the majority of the galaxy's industry is located. Considering Revan started out with absolutely no territorial holdings and that Malak's war effort was comparable to a wrecking ball, the Star Forge has to represent a massive industrial output.

Everything we hear is speculation with no hard numbers, and the upper limit on its direct demonstrated performance remains unimpressive.

What? You mean swarms of capital ships rolling out to conquer the galaxy in the DS ending?

Characters are fallible, and with only hyperbolic dialogue to go by I am wary of ascribing to it near-magical abilities.

"Near-magical abilities"? It's a factory the size of a planet being powered by a star! I think we're well past that point by now.

[Ghost Rider]

Ah, the Starforge.

So is TC Pilot going to do actual calcs on the fucking thing or are we going to go between the same old "It's the size of a planet/moon/Death Star!!!" with production capabilities on the level of some overblown construction droid on crack.

Because it's gets fucking annoying when there is material there, but fucking forbid someone puts it to something more objective then what they presume.

[Samuel]

I'm not sure how you would account for Republic ships that defected to the Sith but aren't the ships created by the Star
Forge immune to the field?

Simple- they aren't immune. The field didn't affect your ship immediately, but when you got closer to the planet.

And if the field was so impenetrable, how could the Sith get there at all in the first place?

I believe they crashed and proceded to shut the field down. Before turning it on again?

Of course it was responsible. You can't be a Dark Sider and have your emotions negatively reinforced for long without bad things happening to you

This isn't just dark siders- it is the entire species for 35000 years.

Where the Republic capital ships are dwarfed a thousand times over by a single tower at the very top of the Star Forge sphere?

You see those weird blue plated things in the backround? That is the spikes that compose the side of the Star Forge. 5:19 and you can see that they are not insanly huge.

Or maybe it's because the fleet was distracted fighting the Republic fleet on the opposite side of the system?

Then what stopped the Republic from simply swamping the defenses with bombers and obliterating them? After all, several ships from the fleet break through to join you.

Good thing there are billions more solar systems out there to take raw materials from.

I'm pretty sure that makes it even harder to build... which would make it smaller.

Because there's about a billion times more materials to draw from a star than any asteroid field out there.

Yeah, you only have the problems that it is so hot that metals are in plasma form and the majority of your material is hydrogen.

Well, it produces capital ships, and enough of them to conquer most of the Republic outside the Core Worlds with. That already makes it better than World Devastators.

Revan had the majority of the Republic fleet to begin his campaign.

In KOTORII, G0-T0 reveals that after Revan departed from known space (i.e. after the Star Forge was destroyed), production dropped off to practically nothing.

Or it could be that the various Sith stopped cooperating and raw materials needed for the factories were no longer delievered. The Sith Lords tend to play their underlings off against each other after all. Lets not forget that with the Sith losing the companies that backed them might switch sides.

Considering Revan started out with absolutely no territorial holdings

Just what do you think Revan was doing after the Mandalorian Wars but prior to the Sith War? Mastering juggling?

What? You mean swarms of capital ships rolling out to conquer the galaxy in the DS ending?

I counted them- there can't be more than 200. Of course, it could just be the returning Sith fleet that cut of the Republic's forces on parade.

So is TC Pilot going to do actual calcs on the fucking thing or are we going to go between the same old "It's the size of a planet/moon/Death Star!!!" with production capabilities on the level of some overblown construction droid on crack.

5:05 is the best I can get for scaling. According to this
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hammerhead-class_cruiser
the ships are 315 meter. The tower seems to be about that thick. The tower seems to be one tenth the width of the circle on top and the circle a fifth of the width of the dome at its tangent. The dome seems to be the same size as the support struts on either side. That works out to 47.25 kilometers. Since the Star Forge is slanted the actual broadest width is slightly bigger. The structre itself looks 4 or 5 times as tall which makes it around 250 kilometers tall.

Of course my eyesight might be off so if anyone can check over this I would appreciate it. Is there a way to increase the accuracy?

[TC Pilot]

So is TC Pilot going to do actual calcs on the fucking thing or are we going to go between the same old "It's the size of a planet/moon/Death Star!!!" with production capabilities on the level of some overblown construction droid on crack.

Taken from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5xDSZnok4s at 0:07 (discovery of the Star Forge by the Ebon Hawk.

The Rakatan star is approximately 56 pixels in diameter. The Star Forge, the dot at the top of the "magic" pillar at the top of the star, is about one pixel. Assuming the Rakatan star is comparable in size to the Sun, each pixel would be approximately 24,000 km across.



Taken from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c36SvnY4YEk at 0:03 (Non-canon Dark Side ending)

For some reason, the Star Forge isn't visible, but the Sith fleet around it is. Regardless, it serves as a nice low-end size for the Star Forge. The very tip of the "magic" pillar is one pixel. The base of the pilar, ending at the Rakatan star, is 67.

Referring back to the first picture, where the base is only six pixels (not counting the tapering off to the sides), gives us an idea of how much this pillar is: 144,000 km. at the base, 2,149 km at the tip.

Now, in every close or mid-range view of the Star Forge, the "tip" of the pillar is directly connected to the base of the station. For instance:



Taken from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c36SvnY4YEk at 3:35 (Light Side, breaking through the Sith lines).

Even generously assuming the Star Forge is only as wide as the tip of the pillar, that's a width of thousands of kilometers.

So, highest end from visuals puts it roughly in the realm of twice the size of Earth. More mid-ranged size based on the width of the pillar, many times the size of the Death Star I. Low-end from Samuel, Death Star-sized.

Edit - changed the low-end to reflect Samuel's scaling

[Samuel]

Congradulations. We both got completely different answers because the cinematics are contradictory. However, the image shows the Sith fleet is larger, a grey band that can be seen when the Star Forge can't. Which sort of messes with the theory that it is the size of Earth.

Is there any method to resolve this? My personal guess is that the star is alot smaller than our Sun due to the amount of material being ripped off, but how much is impossible to say.

[TC Pilot]

This isn't just dark siders- it is the entire species for 35000 years.

What? The Star Forge had no bearing on the Rakatan people after the fall of the Infinite Empire.

You see those weird blue plated things in the backround? That is the spikes that compose the side of the Star Forge. 5:19 and you can see that they are not insanly huge.

Yes, that's the low-end, which still puts it in Death Star-territory.

Then what stopped the Republic from simply swamping the defenses with bombers and obliterating them?

The many, many guns on the Star Forge? The plan was for Jedi to slip onboard in snubfighters, and even they got shot down.

After all, several ships from the fleet break through to join you.

Piloted by Jedi, and half the ships following you are shot down.

I'm pretty sure that makes it even harder to build... which would make it smaller.

What are you even talking about?

Yeah, you only have the problems that it is so hot that metals are in plasma form and the majority of your material is hydrogen.

That's nice. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, of course.

Revan had the majority of the Republic fleet to begin his campaign.

No, he didn't. He had a third of the fleet under his command at the end of the war, according to Dorak.

Or it could be that the various Sith stopped cooperating and raw materials needed for the factories were no longer delievered. The Sith Lords tend to play their underlings off against each other after all.

That's ridiculous. Military production doesn't just stop because of a leadership struggle. Not even the Empire at the height of warlordism and raging civil war had that problem.

The fact remains that the Sith never got their hands on the majority of the galaxy's industrial base, and they still managed to outproduce the Republic.

Lets not forget that with the Sith losing the companies that backed them might switch sides.

What "companies that backed them"?

Just what do you think Revan was doing after the Mandalorian Wars but prior to the Sith War? Mastering juggling?

He dissapeared from known space and the Republic thought he and the entire fleet he took with him had been wiped out. What? You think he was carving out an empire in the middle of nowhere, all while running around the galaxy searching for the Star Forge?

I counted them- there can't be more than 200. Of course, it could just be the returning Sith fleet that cut of the Republic's forces on parade.

However, the image shows the Sith fleet is larger, a grey band that can be seen when the Star Forge can't. Which sort of messes with the theory that it is the size of Earth.

Not really. Because five seconds later the close-up clearly has the Star Forge dwarfing all those ships.

Edit - of course, it must just indicate how large the Sith fleet coming from the Star Forge is, if there are so many of them that they're literally blocking the view of something comparable to the Death Star.

[Samuel]

You do realize we are using the same video

Yes, that's the low-end, which still puts it in Death Star-territory.

No, it puts it at the size of Northern Baja California.

The many, many guns on the Star Forge? The plan was for Jedi to slip onboard in snubfighters, and even they got shot down.

You mean the guns that were only seen when plot demanded it over the hanger? We don't see anything shooting at the capital ships when the obliterate the stabilizer.

What are you even talking about?

Having to import material from other solar systems would be more expensive and reduce the amount of material they could put into it. Fuel isn't free and hyperdrive undoubtably uses more than sublight.

That's ridiculous. Military production doesn't just stop because of a leadership struggle. Not even the Empire at the height of warlordism and raging civil war had that problem.

The Empire had millions of worlds and actual positions of leadership that it devolved to. You killed the head, his apprentice, the next wave of Sith learners and as many other Sith as you could get your hands on.

The fact remains that the Sith never got their hands on the majority of the galaxy's industrial base, and they still managed to outproduce the Republic.

Or they built up before the war and didn't deploy the ships until they had enough crewmen and logistics to field them.

What "companies that backed them"?

Czerka. The company powerful enough to take over a planet in KoTOR and try to seize a major space station in 2. They have their hands in 3 of the 6 worlds you visit in the first game and if that is a representative sample, they are BIG.

He dissapeared from known space and the Republic thought he and the entire fleet he took with him had been wiped out.

Darth Hoth, you win. Every republic in the Star Wars galaxy is insanly incompetant.

What? You think he was carving out an empire in the middle of nowhere, all while running around the galaxy searching for the Star Forge?

It only takes one ship to search and the fleet had to be getting supplies while he was out in the wilderness. They had two years to work while the Republic was gearing down.

Not really. Because five seconds later the close-up clearly has the Star Forge dwarfing all those ships.

Hence contradictory screen shots.

Edit - of course, it must just indicate how large the Sith fleet coming from the Star Forge is, if there are so many of them that they're literally blocking the view of something comparable to the Death Star.

Why couldn't they be more consistent Seriously "thousands defected" "tens of thousands of Republic worlds"...

Sorry. Now if they did it to be that large scale I would support it, but they didn't. On the other hand... how many ships would that take?

[TC Pilot]

No, it puts it at the size of Northern Baja California.

The Death Star I only has seven times the approximate volume of the lowest-estimate Star Forge. Semantic quibbling. It's still enormous, even at your low-estimate size.

You mean the guns that were only seen when plot demanded it over the hanger? We don't see anything shooting at the capital ships when the obliterate the stabilizer.

"Stay on target."

Is it really so hard to actually talk about the topic at hand, and not go off on irrelevant tangents?

Having to import material from other solar systems would be more expensive and reduce the amount of material they could put into it. Fuel isn't free and hyperdrive undoubtably uses more than sublight.

So what? I still don't see how you go from "They need to import resources from outside their solar system" to "They can only build a small Star Forge." Access to resources beyond their solar system means they can build more, not less.

The Empire had millions of worlds and actual positions of leadership that it devolved to.

And Revan's empire didn't? And you know this how?

Or they built up before the war and didn't deploy the ships until they had enough crewmen and logistics to field them.

Gee, I wonder where they might have built all those ships before the war?

Czerka. The company powerful enough to take over a planet in KoTOR and try to seize a major space station in 2. They have their hands in 3 of the 6 worlds you visit in the first game and if that is a representative sample, they are BIG.

You have absolutely no grasp of either game, do you? First off, Czerka never "tried to seize a major space station in [KOTOR]2." They were competing with the Ithorians for the rights to restore Telos. Czerka didn't work for the Sith, unless a tiny outpost on Korriban is your idea of a massive economic commitment, anymore than it worked for the Republic. Never mind that Czerka controlled Kashyyyk under the auspices of the Republic, and continued to do business in the Republic well after the Sith were defeated.

It only takes one ship to search and the fleet had to be getting supplies while he was out in the wilderness. They had two years to work while the Republic was gearing down.

Ah. So Revan's fleet flies off into the Unknown Regions, conquers large swathes of undeveloped territory, builds an industrial base, and constructs a war machine that can keep up with the output of the majority of the galaxy's industry, all in two years, eh?

Because God forbid we actually attribute anything to the Star Forge.

[Samuel]

The Death Star I only has seven times the approximate volume of the lowest-estimate Star Forge. Semantic quibbling. It's still enormous, even at your low-estimate size.

Except that most of the "volume" is space because it is not a cylinder...

I have no idea what we are arguing about anymore.

Access to resources beyond their solar system means they can build more, not less.

Except they still need to import them. There is a limit to how much of that they can do.

And Revan's empire didn't? And you know this how?

You kill the leader, his second and a large number of the stronger Sith. Unlike the Galactic Empire, the Sith Empire was run on Sith. By KoTOR 2 most of the Sith and Jedi were dead.

Gee, I wonder where they might have built all those ships before the war?

Probably the Star Forge. What?

Never mind that Czerka controlled Kashyyyk under the auspices of the Republic,

They controlled it exclusivly for slave trading. Slavery is illegal in the Republic.

[Darth Hoth]

What's funny is that's precisely what World Devastators do with their "molecular furnace."

Reasonably, there is a huge difference between rearranging things on the molecular and sub-atomic levels, as pertains to energy requirements, &c.

In KOTORII, G0-T0 reveals that after Revan departed from known space (i.e. after the Star Forge was destroyed), production dropped off to practically nothing.

It is still just dialogue. But all right.

The Sith never managed to reach the Core Worlds, which is where the majority of the galaxy's industry is located. Considering Revan started out with absolutely no territorial holdings and that Malak's war effort was comparable to a wrecking ball, the Star Forge has to represent a massive industrial output.

Or, he captured key installations early (it is not like there are no shipyards outside the Core) while the Republic was still reeling from the knock-out punch of having most of its mobile military assets deserting them. It is noted that Revan, where possible, took important facilities intact. The early campaign would be a lightning war, capitalising fully on the Republic's confusion and unpreparedness, before gradually slowing down as they recovered. Supposing that the Star Forge was his only contributor is minimalism in and of itself.

What? You mean swarms of capital ships rolling out to conquer the galaxy in the DS ending?

Yes.

"Near-magical abilities"? It's a factory the size of a planet being powered by a star! I think we're well past that point by now.

Assuming it has no limits purely on the basis of speculative dialogue is suspect at best. And we have no idea just how much of its internal space is even devoted to factories.

[Darth Hoth]

Czerka. The company powerful enough to take over a planet in KoTOR and try to seize a major space station in 2. They have their hands in 3 of the 6 worlds you visit in the first game and if that is a representative sample, they are BIG.

Czerka Corporation was not affiliated with the Revanite Sith Empire. They were a corporation, making business with both sides, not a "backer" of either.

Darth Hoth, you win. Every republic in the Star Wars galaxy is insanly incompetant.

Yes. Every new period of Republican government depicted is yet more vindication for us pro-Imperials.

[Samuel]

Or, he captured key installations early (it is not like there are no shipyards outside the Core)

Does anyone know what happened to the Mandalorian industries after the war? They were built up enough to provide for their military and given the fact they did so well at a numerical disadvantage they were probably better equiped than the Republic ground troops- they used Basilisk war droids for insertions after all compared to the Republics more normal troop ships.

[TC Pilot]

Except they still need to import them. There is a limit to how much of that they can do.

Why? It's not like they're going to run out of resources to get those resources.

You kill the leader, his second and a large number of the stronger Sith. Unlike the Galactic Empire, the Sith Empire was run on Sith.

And you base this on what, exactly?

They controlled it exclusivly for slave trading. Slavery is illegal in the Republic.

Yes... Of course it is.

Reasonably, there is a huge difference between rearranging things on the molecular and sub-atomic levels, as pertains to energy requirements, &c.

We don't know how either technology functions, so it's pure speculation on your part.

It is still just dialogue. But all right.

"Still just dialogue"? What else did you expect?

Or, he captured key installations early (it is not like there are no shipyards outside the Core) while the Republic was still reeling from the knock-out punch of having most of its mobile military assets deserting them.

First, it's 1/3. Revan and Malak only controlled a third of the Republic fleet.

It is noted that Revan, where possible, took important facilities intact. The early campaign would be a lightning war, capitalising fully on the Republic's confusion and unpreparedness, before gradually slowing down as they recovered.

The war lasted for years, and the Sith never reached the Core, meaning the Republic had, at a bare minimum, the majority of the galaxy's industry. Remember, too, that the worlds Revan is conquering were also conquered by the Mandalorians, who are barely better at avoiding collateral damage than Malak was.

For the Sith to have kept up with the Republic, and, indeed, even outnumber them as is heavily implied, the Star Forge has to represent a production capacity equal to a substantial percentage of the rest of the galaxy's manufacturing capability.

Supposing that the Star Forge was his only contributor is minimalism in and of itself.

No one said it was.

Yes.

I'm not sure which I find more annoying, the constant Revan-wank I see whenever he's brought up in other boards, or the constant KOTOR-dewank on this board.

Assuming it has no limits purely on the basis of speculative dialogue is suspect at best. And we have no idea just how much of its internal space is even devoted to factories.

And assuming that only a tiny fraction of its internal space is devoted to factories is idiotic.

[Samuel]

Why? It's not like they're going to run out of resources to get those resources.

The Infinite Empire does not in fact have an infinite amount of money.

And you base this on what, exactly?

Sith Empire.

Yes... Of course it is.

Well, all the examples we see are in worlds not controlled by the Republic so I don't think they had a relationship.

"Still just dialogue"? What else did you expect?

From a robot that tries to run the Republic like an evil version of Seldon? Something a bit more specific than "almost nothing".

First, it's 1/3. Revan and Malak only controlled a third of the Republic fleet.

At the start. The Jedi master you mentioned also mentions large amounts of desertions- Saul is the most obvious and probably brought his ships with him. Not to mention that the odds suddenly change if you destroy a portion of the enemy fleet while they are all unprepared. Carth mentioned that he knew they had been betrayed when the bombers started ripping their ships to shreads in base- and I doubt that was the only one.

The war lasted for years, and the Sith never reached the Core, meaning the Republic had, at a bare minimum, the majority of the galaxy's industry.

The Mandalorians managed to produce enough to threaten (and thought they could win against) the Republic despite not having any core worlds.

I'm not sure which I find more annoying, the constant Revan-wank I see whenever he's brought up in other boards, or the constant KOTOR-dewank on this board.

KoTOR is minimalistic. It is annoying how the individuals you interact with talk about thousands or how every world you visit was on the racing circuit or how there is one world with kolto or how the amount of Jedi seems to be insanly high, saturating the galaxy with force users or...

Raven on the other hand is interesting, if only because she is most likely... well, insane.

And assuming that only a tiny fraction of its internal space is devoted to factories is idiotic.

It is called the Star Forge but... well, the 4 pillars around the center seem to be really badly placed to be part of the factory. Of course, internal volume doesn't matter if they can pump out the ships fast enough. Now, crewing them is a bigger problem. I didn't see any large bays for people to enter or exit.

[TC Pilot]

The Infinite Empire does not in fact have an infinite amount of money.

*facepalm*

Seriously? You're worried about the Rakatan running out of money?

Sith Empire.

Again, so what? Only a tiny fraction of the "Sith" are actual Force users. You're going to need to offer something more than a title to justify your claim.

Well, all the examples we see are in worlds not controlled by the Republic so I don't think they had a relationship.

Setting aside the question of whether or not the Republic condoned slavery, the Wookiees were considered animals, so it wasn't slavery, but rather domestication.

From a robot that tries to run the Republic like an evil version of Seldon?

He doesn't run the Republic. He runs the Exchange.

Something a bit more specific than "almost nothing".

I paraphrased the quote. Did you seriously not get that, or are you just trolling now?

At the start.

No, at the end. By the end of the war they controlled a third of the Republic fleet. NOTHING MORE.

The Jedi master you mentioned also mentions large amounts of desertions

Right. The ships under Revan's command defected.

Not to mention that the odds suddenly change if you destroy a portion of the enemy fleet while they are all unprepared. Carth mentioned that he knew they had been betrayed when the bombers started ripping their ships to shreads in base- and I doubt that was the only one.

So what? Are you seriously trying to say Revan's forces wiped out a large majority of the Republic fleet in dock? Clearly it wasn't so bad. Carth survived, after all.

The Mandalorians managed to produce enough to threaten (and thought they could win against) the Republic despite not having any core worlds.

That's because they spent a decade amassing for the attack.

Raven on the other hand is interesting, if only because she is most likely... well, insane.

Revan's male.

[Samuel]

Seriously? You're worried about the Rakatan running out of money?

Money is also a measure of resources- unless you are assuming the Rakatan were pure communists.

Setting aside the question of whether or not the Republic condoned slavery, the Wookiees were considered animals, so it wasn't slavery, but rather domestication.

That was the Empire's policy, not the Republics.

He doesn't run the Republic. He runs the Exchange.

I didn't mean run as in being in charge of, but as manipulating and trying to guide it. Seldon wasn't a politican either.

No, at the end. By the end of the war they controlled a third of the Republic fleet. NOTHING MORE.

How is this related at all to what I said?

Right. The ships under Revan's command defected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7xxIBS1Yw0
:50

With each conquest thousands more flocked to join the invaders, swelling their numbers. Even many of our order betrayed us, lured by the Sith promises of riches and power

That's because they spent a decade amassing for the attack.

Thats only 5 times as long as Revan had. You want to calculate that the Forge was 80% of their productive capacity?

Revan's male.

I always thought it would work better with Revan female and the Exile male... stupid canon. Anyway the dark side path shows you being completely insane which is what I was refering to.