Who did pay the bills of the Jedi Order?

[Joe]

The slavery lasted at least for 9 years, so the Jedi Order had enough time to liberate them. But they did not do it. They tolerated slavery for years. And continued to tolerate after TPM ... So, justice was only for the citizens of the republic.

That's quite a leap in logic. That's like saying: Slavery occurs in the Sudan even today and America has not intervened to stop it. So, America supports slavery.

There are probably hundreds of planets in the Outer Rim with slavery. Jedi are scarce resources, not the Universe's policemen. They can't just be deployed anywhere, anytime to correct every single wrong occuring in the Galaxy, when there are people suffering in the Republic who require their assistance. It's not that the Jedi don't consider citizens outside of the Republic worthy of justice, it's just that they CAN'T bring the citizens outside of the Republic justice.

That's quite a leap in logic. I wrote tolerating, not supporting. Slavery occurs in the Sudan even today and America has not intervened to stop it. So, America tolerates slavery and american freedom (justice) is only for the citizens of America.

They were able to launch an attack of 200 jedis within hours. What have you said about "can't"? They ARE the republic's policemen. So why not the Universe's policemen?

That still doesn't follow. Not sending a considerable military force to stop slavery somewhere outside your borders is not the same thing as tolerating the practice of slavery. By that logic, since you are not currently in the Sudan, fighting to liberate slaves, you are in fact tolerating slavery.

Geonosis was within the Republic's borders, turbo, and Geonosis's actions were a direct threat to the welfare of the citizens of the Republic. The Jedi are funded by taxes collected from Republic citizens. They can only concern themselves with the Republic's sphere of influence. Deal with it.

And you do realize that the Universe is a pretty big place for 10,000 Jedi to police, don't you, Mr. Mathematics? Because you're acting like you don't.

[vakundok]

That still doesn't follow. Not sending a considerable military force to stop slavery somewhere outside your borders is not the same thing as tolerating the practice of slavery. By that logic, since you are not currently in the Sudan, fighting to liberate slaves, you are in fact tolerating slavery.

Geonosis was within the Republic's borders, turbo, and Geonosis's actions were a direct threat to the welfare of the citizens of the Republic. The Jedi are funded by taxes collected from Republic citizens. They can only concern themselves with the Republic's sphere of influence. Deal with it.

And you do realize that the Universe is a pretty big place for 10,000 Jedi to police, don't you, Mr. Mathematics? Because you're acting like you don't.

It is not so big since they are led by the Force aren' they, Mr. Mathematics? They just need to roll a knife (or a lightsaber) and it will "accidentally" point where they are most needed.

Yes, it means that I and you are actually tolerating slavery. But we are just people who care about our own business, not jedis! At least I am not.

As I remember they did not go to Geonosis to stop the droid production, but to save Obi van, who had really spied.

However: "They can only concern themselves with the Republic's sphere of influence. Deal with it." - that is exactly what I said. Justice and freedom are only for the citizens of the republic. Outside the boundaries of the republic anything can happen. What is this if not toleration?

[vakundok]

Btw, when Naboo was blockaded, the jedis did not do anything on their own. They went there only when they were asked by Valorum. (A suicide decision for himself.) What would happen if Valorum did not ask them? The invasion would go on and within days it would be legalized as well ... Why did the Jedi Order not react to a blockade independently and immediately? How passive observers the jedis are?

[Joe]

That still doesn't follow. Not sending a considerable military force to stop slavery somewhere outside your borders is not the same thing as tolerating the practice of slavery. By that logic, since you are not currently in the Sudan, fighting to liberate slaves, you are in fact tolerating slavery.

Geonosis was within the Republic's borders, turbo, and Geonosis's actions were a direct threat to the welfare of the citizens of the Republic. The Jedi are funded by taxes collected from Republic citizens. They can only concern themselves with the Republic's sphere of influence. Deal with it.

And you do realize that the Universe is a pretty big place for 10,000 Jedi to police, don't you, Mr. Mathematics? Because you're acting like you don't.

It is not so big since they are led by the Force aren' they, Mr. Mathematics? They just need to roll a knife (or a lightsaber) and it will "accidentally" point where they are most needed.

Indeed? I can just imagine Yoda standing before a Senate committee and informing them that his Force senses have determined that the Jedi are needed someone far outside the Republic and that the Republic must still foot the bill. It doesn't matter how idealistic the Jedi are, reality will always come back to kick them in the balls.

Yes, it means that I and you are actually tolerating slavery. But we are just people who care about our own business, not jedis! At least I am not.

I disagree; I personally do NOT tolerate slavery, I just realize that I lack the means to effectively dispose of it wherever it is occuring. I'm sure the Jedi (and the OR) realize the same thing.

As I remember they did not go to Geonosis to stop the droid production, but to save Obi van, who had really spied.

However: "They can only concern themselves with the Republic's sphere of influence. Deal with it." - that is exactly what I said. Justice and freedom are only for the citizens of the republic. Outside the boundaries of the republic anything can happen. What is this if not toleration?

Umm, not exactly. Yes, they did go to Geonosis partially to save Obi-Wan, but also to capture Dooku and end the war before it started, saving billions, possibily trillions of lives.

I doubt very much the Jedi actively believe that citizens outside of the Republic are not worthy of justice and freedom. In fact, if the Jedi had the resources and the number needed to police the Universe, they would gladly do so. The problem is that this is completely, utterly, hopelessly impossible. The Jedi must realize that their power is finite, and they have only the ability to protect the freedom and justice of the people within their sphere.

Btw, when Naboo was blockaded, the jedis did not do anything on their own. They went there only when they were asked by Valorum. (A suicide decision for himself.) What would happen if Valorum did not ask them? The invasion would go on and within days it would be legalized as well ... Why did the Jedi Order not react to a blockade independently and immediately? How passive observers the jedis are?

Because the Jedi can't always just act arbitrarily all the time. They're still agents of the Republic.

[vakundok]

You imagined that Yoda stood before a Senate comittee and informed them that his Force senses have determined that the jedis needed some fighters preferably the most modern ones and that the Republic had to pay the bill, didn't you?

Ehh, my poor english ... What is the difference between not doing anything against slavery (because you canot do much) and accepting/tolerating the existence of slavery? The jedis canot realize that because they CAN do much. 200 of them was able to infiltrate into the arena and clearly overwhelm several thousands of geonosians.

I doubt very much the Jedi actively believe that citizens outside of the Republic are not worthy of justice and freedom.

It is not about believing but acting.

The blockade of Naboo was against the Republic. That time it was the largest problem of the Republic. They did nothing.
The geonosian arming was against the Republic. That time it was the largest problem of the Republic. They acted immediately. I canot remember whether they waited Palpatine to agree at all ...

It is midnight here, I go to sleep. Good night!

[neoolong]

Uh, you do know that the jedi were getting their asses kicked and in fact lost until Yoda showed up with the clones right?

[Joe]

You imagined that Yoda stood before a Senate comittee and informed them that his Force senses have determined that the jedis needed some fighters preferably the most modern ones and that the Republic had to pay the bill, didn't you?

No, I imagined Yoda standing before the Senate and trying to justify a military adventure far outside the reaches of the Republic, with no bearing on the citizens of the Republic, and trying to convince them to foot the bill. You can imagine what the reaction would be.

Ehh, my poor english ... What is the difference between not doing anything against slavery (because you canot do much) and accepting/tolerating the existence of slavery? The jedis canot realize that because they CAN do much. 200 of them was able to infiltrate into the arena and clearly overwhelm several thousands of geonosians.

Tolerance is recognizing and respecting the beliefs of others. The Jedi do not tolerate slavery in this matter; they are most likely disgusted with it. They accept that it is going to exist, like it or not, because they HAVE to, not out of a general respect for the practices of slaveholding systems. Your notion that not being able to do something about certain foul practices is the same thing as tolerating them is sketchy. For example; murder, rape, and pedophilia. There's no shortage of it in the world, and some countries either won't stop it or lack the resources necessary to stop it. Now, the U.S. is not likely to intervene in these countries on this basis alone, simply because it would be completely unfeasible. Again, by your logic, the U.S. government is tolerating murder, rape, and pedophilia, because it cannot effectively eliminate them outside of it's borders. Tolerance implies respect (perhaps grudging) and sanction of a practice, not accepting it out of not being able to do anything about it. Your logic states, that if anyone, anywhere does something bad over a period of time, then everyone, everywhere is tolerant of it. This is simply unfair.

As for Geonosis. "Overwhelm"? Watch AoTC again, they get their butts kicked. The Jedi are not supermen with limitless power, it's finite. The Jedi are already shouldering the burden of keeping peace in the Republic, a larger burden than you can possibly imagine. TRILLIONS of lives, only 10,000 Jedi. They can handle no more. They must do what they can for the trillions they are sworn to protect.

I doubt very much the Jedi actively believe that citizens outside of the Republic are not worthy of justice and freedom.

It is not about believing but acting.

The blockade of Naboo was against the Republic. That time it was the largest problem of the Republic. They did nothing.
The geonosian arming was against the Republic. That time it was the largest problem of the Republic. They acted immediately. I canot remember whether they waited Palpatine to agree at all ...

It is midnight here, I go to sleep. Good night!

Naboo and Geonosis were completely different situations. Apples and oranges.

The blockade on Naboo, for all intents and purposes, did appear, from an outside perspective, to be a non-violent blockade in protest to the taxation of trade routes rather than an aggressive manuever against the people of Naboo. It did not require intervention immediately after its discovery. It does appear that no one had any idea what was really going on on the planet, including the Jedi.

The situation on Geonosis, however, was a clear example of the Jedi not having time to consult the Senate before acting. Dooku, the man spearheading the war, was on Geonosis, and the opportunity to capture him and stop the war was too great to risk losing, because consulting the Republic likely would have greatly delayed the attack.

[neoolong]

The sith maybe ... The jedis are too passive to do this.

Right just like Qui-Gon didn't cheat during the dice roll.

Well, it's not like he was cheating to shakedown Watto, he was cheating to free an unjustly imprisoned slave.

True, but it shows that all Jedi aren't so passive as to not directly interfere with "fate."

[kojikun]

Jedi and Religion: The Force is a testable and repeatable thing, and that makes it pure science. Prophecies or no, its still science.

On topic: How much do these ships cost? Honestly, if the US government is going around buying up 1,000-$30,000,000 aircraft (the new JSF) for the USAF without severly damaging the american economy, and people like Han Solo can buy ships bigger then any jedi star fighter, then will 10,000 of those things make such a big dent in a galactic economy that entire empires are miffed? I think a single Acclamator is likely to cost more then all the jedi starfighters put together. A modern Nimitz class carrier costs USD$4.5Billion to make, thats about 1,500 JSFs. An Acclamator is bigger, has more technology, etc. And a jedi starfighter is a very small craft that could not cost much more then a Falcon, which a mere captain could buy.

[Enforcer Talen]

Id be more concerned with the price of the skyscraper and machines of training, then the few fighters any minor crimelord could afford.

[kojikun]

exactly. and even then, the city world of coruscant is covered in buildings many times larger then the temple, and theyre residential! the jedi temple has 10,000 jedi. so what? most present day schools have 1,000 students. Surely not all 10,000 Jedi are training such that they need teacher supervision, some are librarians, etc. The cost of the jedi operation is likely similar to running a small school district. its an insignificant cost.

[Publius]

According to the article "People's Inquest Demand Jedi Budget Reports", in HoloNet News Volume 531, Number 48, the Judicial Department handled the finances of the Jedi Order. Information regarding the Order's budget was not available to the general public, due to "security concerns", according to Judicial Department Information Director Laddinare Torbin.

Incidentally, it may be that Director Torbin is the same person as the Lord Torbin, the Emperor's Grand Inquisitor, mentioned in the Star Wars Sourcebook, and in the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, as having been assassinated in his palace on Weerden when the shuttle Sark I crashed into the palace. This is often cited as one of the principal causes for the ban on assassin 'droids in the Empire.

[vakundok]

Well I have to sorry. So the jedis did not tolerate just accepted the existence of slavery. Am I correct now?

Do you mean that the Republic payed dozens of fighters to the Jedi Order but was unwilling to pay their trip to hutt space?

Non- violent blockade does not matter? Any blockade is non- violent only before someone really want to go through. And the jedis didn't even go there to examine the situation on their own.

Geonosis: I talked about overwhelming the geonosians not the droid army. Besides, was Geonosis that time a member of the Republic at all? Wouldn't had a separatist main world separate itself from the Republic? I think when a world joins to the separatist movement it leaves the Republic instantly or at least refuse its authority. So it seems that the jedis attacked a world outside the Republic influence without any permission trying to capture the leader of a legal movement (the war hadn't yet started that time) and save a jedi who actually spied.

As I know the JFSs (or ATFs?) cost $150.000.000. $30.000.000 is the price of fighters like Mig 29. The price of a Grippen starts from $50.000.000. And these are only the price of the planes themselves not including the support systems which are also considerable. The fighters are always far more expensive than small civilian freighters and also relative more expensive than larger military hardware because they are so compact. (I don't know how many a Cessna is.) Besides Solo won the Falcon not bought it. (While it is not canon it is widely accepted, isn't it?)

[Joe]

Well I have to sorry. So the jedis did not tolerate just accepted the existence of slavery. Am I correct now?

Accepted it in the recognition that they lacked the power to effectively eliminate it. In no way is this tolerance of it.

Do you mean that the Republic payed dozens of fighters to the Jedi Order but was unwilling to pay their trip to hutt space?

There are probably hundreds of world in the outer rim out of the Republic's reach practicing slavery, and thousands more beyond the Outer Rim. What makes the slaves in Hutt Space so special that the Jedi should concentrate on them alone? Are you seeing the point I'm trying to make now?

And it's not so much a matter of money, it's a matter of limited resources. Jedi are too scarce; the Republic needs virtually every second of their time. They can't go off on moral crusades in foreign lands whenever they feel like it. There are trillions of people out there, and the Jedi must act in a way that will bring them the greatest collective benefit, and moral crusades far removed from them most of them are likely not going to be in their best interest. It's harsh, but that's how it is.

Non- violent blockade does not matter? Any blockade is non- violent only before someone really want to go through. And the jedis didn't even go there to examine the situation on their own.

I didn't say it didn't matter, I said it was not so dire a situation that the Jedi had to act immediately decisively, without consulting their superiors in the Gov't. The Geonosis situation was.

Geonosis: I talked about overwhelming the geonosians not the droid army. Besides, was Geonosis that time a member of the Republic at all? Wouldn't had a separatist main world separate itself from the Republic? I think when a world joins to the separatist movement it leaves the Republic instantly or at least refuse its authority. So it seems that the jedis attacked a world outside the Republic influence without any permission trying to capture the leader of a legal movement (the war hadn't yet started that time) and save a jedi who actually spied.

They didn't overwhelm the Geonosians. The Geonosians got the fuck out of there and sent in their droid armies. Geonosis was a member of the Republic, technically at the time; however, it was perfectly clear what the intentions of Geonosis were. They had seceded from the Republic in all but formality. And yes, it would have been nice to be able to get permission from the higher-ups in the Republic to attack Geonosis, but this situation was so dire that that would not have been a wise move. It may not have been a democratic decision, but it was clearly the right one; the Geonosis mission was almost successful (after the arrival of Yoda & the Clonetroopers). If they had captured Dooku the war would have ended before it started.

As I know the JFSs (or ATFs?) cost $150.000.000. $30.000.000 is the price of fighters like Mig 29. The price of a Grippen starts from $50.000.000. And these are only the price of the planes themselves not including the support systems which are also considerable. The fighters are always far more expensive than small civilian freighters and also relative more expensive than larger military hardware because they are so compact. (I don't know how many a Cessna is.) Besides Solo won the Falcon not bought it. (While it is not canon it is widely accepted, isn't it?)

I thought it was canon, on at least some level.

[D.Turtle]

Solo won the Falcon - in TESB he says "Hey, I won her from you fair and square" or something in that direction.

[Enforcer Talen]

han solo trilogy, it's all played out. han gets a natural 23.

[Lord_Xerxes]

I disagree; I personally do NOT tolerate slavery, I just realize that I lack the means to effectively dispose of it wherever it is occuring. I'm sure the Jedi (and the OR) realize the same thing.

"It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it. But there's nothing I can do about it. Besides...it's so far away from here..."

Heh.

[vakundok]

Ok I forgot about it. The main point was that Solo did not buy the Falcon.

Non- violent blockade does not matter? Any blockade is non- violent only before someone really want to go through. And the jedis didn't even go there to examine the situation on their own.

I didn't say it didn't matter, I said it was not so dire a situation that the Jedi had to act immediately decisively, without consulting their superiors in the Gov't. The Geonosis situation was.

The government was clearly unable to respond. The jedis got a report from Qui-gon on the full invasion of Naboo and even on the
message to Amidala which indicated that some of the people of Naboo had already died due to the intervention. But they still did not react and even Qui-gon was instructed not to take part of that war.
On Geonosis Dooku said that they (geonosian) refused the authority of the Republic there. Geonosis WAS openly a separatist world and as such outside the Republic.

They didn't overwhelm the Geonosians.

Please, check the short dialog between Windu and Dooku before the droids shown up.

There are probably hundreds of world in the outer rim out of the Republic's reach practicing slavery, and thousands more beyond the Outer Rim. What makes the slaves in Hutt Space so special that the Jedi should concentrate on them alone? Are you seeing the point I'm trying to make now?

I mentioned the Hutt space as an example to start with. And besides it is the only canon example of slavery. If there were usually 200 jedis available at Coruscant they would be able to free the slaves on all planets one by one. How many time would it require to free the slaves on Tatooin? Less than one day to overwhelm the local defenses and (since Anikin was freed in no time) less than an other day to free the slaves. Let's count a week trip. How many week- long missions could be executed just between TPM and AoTC? And how many more in the years (maybe milenias) before TPM?

I will be back on Monday. My girlfriend is quite annoyed because I spend too much time here on weekends. Have a nice weekend!

[Joe]

I disagree; I personally do NOT tolerate slavery, I just realize that I lack the means to effectively dispose of it wherever it is occuring. I'm sure the Jedi (and the OR) realize the same thing.

"It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it. But there's nothing I can do about it. Besides...it's so far away from here..."

Heh.

Well, we know this ultimately was not true, but from Luke's perspective at the time, he had no realize to believe that he could effectively do anything about it.

There are barely enough Jedi to police the Republic. The prologue to EpII states that the Jedi were already overwhelmed by the Separatists. There just aren't enough of them to correct every moral wrong in the universe.

[Joe]

The government was clearly unable to respond. The jedis got a report from Qui-gon on the full invasion of Naboo and even on the
message to Amidala which indicated that some of the people of Naboo had already died due to the intervention. But they still did not react and even Qui-gon was instructed not to take part of that war.
On Geonosis Dooku said that they (geonosian) refused the authority of the Republic there. Geonosis WAS openly a separatist world and as such outside the Republic.

The Republic would have stopped them had they attempted to act. Perhaps they wanted to, but the Jedi are still subject to the decisions of the Senate, ultimately. Geonosis was a unique situation where the Jedi realized that not acting immediately would be disastrous; they had no time to consult the Republic on the matter.

And give me a break here; I'm not trying to say that the Jedi effectively did their job (protect the Republic & its citizens), I'm just saying what their job is, and what it isn't.

And Geonosis, I think, had not yet formally declared independence from the Republic.

I mentioned the Hutt space as an example to start with. And besides it is the only canon example of slavery. If there were usually 200 jedis available at Coruscant they would be able to free the slaves on all planets one by one. How many time would it require to free the slaves on Tatooin? Less than one day to overwhelm the local defenses and (since Anikin was freed in no time) less than an other day to free the slaves. Let's count a week trip. How many week- long missions could be executed just between TPM and AoTC? And how many more in the years (maybe milenias) before TPM?

I highly doubt that slavery in the Outer Rim is confined to Hutt Space. Highly, highly doubt. Slavery is expansive, and unless some government acts to stop it it will usually expand, not recede to localities.

I also highly doubt it is going to take only a few days to liberate thousands, if not millions, of slaves on each planet. The logistics just don't work out. The Jedi alone certaintly could not pull this off, they would need the backing of the Republic to do it. While it may not be too expensive to free one planet, the cost would add up after a while, and I doubt the citizens of the Republic would much like the Republic military and the Jedi going off on moral crusades in faraway places while people in the Republic are still suffering. But that is irrelevant, anyway; we know that the Jedi simply cannot be reasonably expected to fly back and forth from planet to planet until they have freed every slave in the Universe.

[NecronLord]

They could simply have a few uninhabited planets that provide automated industrial support (Automated factory worlds are common, why not one that makes Jedi Suff and sells extra produce for their republic credits?)

[vakundok]

They could simply have a few uninhabited planets that provide automated industrial support (Automated factory worlds are common, why not one that makes Jedi Suff and sells extra produce for their republic credits?)

It is possible but it would require worlds under direct jedi control. And the jedi fighters as well as the clones' equipment were officially produced by a subsidiary of KDY. I do not think that race for markets was somtehing the jedis did.

[Enforcer Talen]

I disagree; I personally do NOT tolerate slavery, I just realize that I lack the means to effectively dispose of it wherever it is occuring. I'm sure the Jedi (and the OR) realize the same thing.

"It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it. But there's nothing I can do about it. Besides...it's so far away from here..."

Heh.

course, he was trying out for the academy too. weird kid.

[vakundok]

The government was clearly unable to respond. The jedis got a report from Qui-gon on the full invasion of Naboo and even on the
message to Amidala which indicated that some of the people of Naboo had already died due to the intervention. But they still did not react and even Qui-gon was instructed not to take part of that war.
On Geonosis Dooku said that they (geonosian) refused the authority of the Republic there. Geonosis WAS openly a separatist world and as such outside the Republic.

The Republic would have stopped them had they attempted to act. Perhaps they wanted to, but the Jedi are still subject to the decisions of the Senate, ultimately.

The Senate did not even hear Qui-gon's report on the situation, so I highly doubt that the Senate gave (and even could give) any orders to the jedis. It is also interesting that while the jedis were asked by Valorum, no jedis reported to him. (Otherwise he would use an unquestionable report against the representative of the Federation.) The fact that Valorum asked not ordered the jedis, that he was able to do it without the knowledge of the Senate and that Qui-gon went to report to the Jedi council, not to the Senate indicate that the Jedi Order was not a subordinate of the Senate but a higly independent orgaization.

Geonosis was a unique situation where the Jedi realized that not acting immediately would be disastrous; they had no time to consult the Republic on the matter.

Unique? Do you mean blockades and invasions were higly common within the Republic?

And give me a break here; I'm not trying to say that the Jedi effectively did their job (protect the Republic & its citizens), I'm just saying what their job is, and what it isn't.

The most important problem should be solved or at least reacted shouldn't it? They had 200 jedis available for special missions.

And Geonosis, I think, had not yet formally declared independence from the Republic.

I think, they had. Geonosis had to be a main world of the separatist. Poggle was clearly a subordinate to Dooku and it was mentioned that hundreds of worlds had already left the Republic.

I highly doubt that slavery in the Outer Rim is confined to Hutt Space. Highly, highly doubt.

You can do that. But it is still the only canon example.

I also highly doubt it is going to take only a few days to liberate thousands, if not millions, of slaves on each planet. The logistics just don't work out.

So, in your opinion how much time is needed to switch off and remove thousands or millions of implanted tracker devises?

[NecronLord]

They could simply have a few uninhabited planets that provide automated industrial support (Automated factory worlds are common, why not one that makes Jedi Suff and sells extra produce for their republic credits?)

It is possible but it would require worlds under direct jedi control. And the jedi fighters as well as the clones' equipment were officially produced by a subsidiary of KDY. I do not think that race for markets was somtehing the jedis did.

So they buy them with the money from the official jedi merchendise...