What is the actual weapons range of Millenium Falcon?

[Kazeite]

So not owning a Ferrari makes me unable to reach the optimum speed in the Autobahn? Why would I allow for that serious disadvantage? Next you'll argue why would Han expose himself to danger by not owning a Star Destroyer.

LOL
Han does not own a ISD because he cannot afford it

What makes you think there's a "full" capability?

Because there is. If I have a latest graphics acceleration card in my computer and only 16MB of RAM, then my computer is obviously unable to reach it's full potential.

If you answered no to any of the above, then why do you allow for such a serious disadvantage?

Because I cannot afford it. But if I;m not going to use full potential of my computer, then what's the point of making any upgrades at all?

Of course, according to you that is evidence that the Falcon planned on crashing into the trench (which you think outweighs the evidence that it *didn't*).

Don't try that trick on me. I didn't said that Falcon was about to crash into the trench - obviously, after 10 seconds Han changed direction of the flight

Maybe the wingman acted like he was about to be shot by the Falcon, like the other (dead) wingman? Probably you think your explanation makes the more sense.

What explanation? I didn't had any explanation, and that's precisely why I asked that question! And you gave an answer. Reasonable one, if I may add.

You attempted to limit the discussion to canon when there is no reason to do so.

Unless there's some temporal diplacement here, there' no way that ANH Falcon can be substituted with NJO Falcon.
I fully acknowledge that in NJO Falcon received an upgrade.

In the first example with Alderaan, you ignore the fact the DS had JUST DESTROYED ALDERAAN. The ANH novelization clearly indicates there were levels of "wild energy" present - high enough to be distinguishable as a planet-destroying event (Along with the solid waste.)

Um... I'm sorry, but I was unable to find it. Could you kindly quote it for me?

That much energy (in the form of emitted heat from debris, and such.) would quite probably interfere with sensor attempts to lock onto any sort of emissions a TIE fighter was giving off - either by passive or active targeting - to say nothing of EW. Thus, one would have to get closer in order to hit it.

And yet, according to novelization indicates that Han was able to detect T/F before he was fired upon by that T/F.

The Radio drama indicates that Han was attempting to go for a "sensor gun lock", which explains that.

Finally, a serius theory backed by semi-canon

IF he was going for manual targeting (some sources indicate that the cockpit-mounted gunnery is mostly manual)

Excuse me, but I thought that most of SW gunnery is manual? (not counting missile weapons)

The Trench run instance was, as Wayne noted, from quite a bit farther away. In that instance, the TIEs were unaware of the attackers (who were coming in with the sun from behind them, amidst the DS's own jamming, etc) inside the trench (they couldn't manuver), moving in a fairly predictable straight-line path.

That first T/F was also moving "in a fairly predictable straight-line path.", but nevertheless that dexcription is true.

Did you note the navicomputer examples in my last post? There's a
difference between Solo's pocket pre-ANH and post ANH: loads of money.

But there's no difference between ANH Falcon at Alderaan and ANH Falcon during DS trench run.
But of course, there were many upgrades to the Falcon after ANH, including navicomputer.

Again, that matters little if the weapons package wasn't upgraded until later. BTW, which quote are you referring to?

ANH and before Falcon is designed to run. It even has a special sensor system so it can detect ships first, and run.

Yes, we do. Read the pre-ANH Solo adventures written by A.C. Crispin.

Oh, my mistake again

But still, those T/Fs were able to attack with no difficulty from all angles.

Err...and? It IS 3-D space...

Exactly. And those TIEs behaved like Falcon was not moving at all, which could led to conclusion, that they had a significant speed advantage.

Or Solo could have shot the TIE from the cockpit.

Yes, it's true, judging from his reaction

How does that affect anything I've said? The wingman didn't panic until AFTER Solo blasted one of the TIEs. Again, we're talking about this bullshit 200 meters number again. Still doesn't wash.

Unless Falcon was moving at slower speed, but I agree, that this distance had to be greater than that.

BTW, why everyone keep bringing that 200m distance up? I thought that we agreed that it is invalid?

[Lord Poe]

Did you note the navicomputer examples in my last post? There's a
difference between Solo's pocket pre-ANH and post ANH: loads of money.

But there's no difference between ANH Falcon at Alderaan and ANH Falcon during DS trench run.

Riiiiiiight, so once AGAIN, how does this invalidate what I SAID? re: the quad guns didn't need a changeout just as the navicomputer on the helm didn't need one. The software was upgraded, as it were.

But of course, there were many upgrades to the Falcon after ANH, including navicomputer.

Glad you agree, then. Does that clear it up for you? re: the quad guns didn't need a changeout ?

Again, that matters little if the weapons package wasn't upgraded until later. BTW, which quote are you referring to?

ANH and before Falcon is designed to run. It even has a special sensor system so it can detect ships first, and run.

Ah...I thought you were referring to something from the HttE trilogy.

Exactly. And those TIEs behaved like Falcon was not moving at all, which could led to conclusion, that they had a significant speed advantage.

As we saw in TESB, the TIEs can keep up with the Falcon on a straightaway course. But remember, we're talking ANH here, remember? The navicomputer needs "a few moments" to call up a proper jump. Solo wouldn't get that chance with TIEs on his 12. That's why he decided to fight them, and told Chewie to hold them off.

How does that affect anything I've said? The wingman didn't panic until AFTER Solo blasted one of the TIEs. Again, we're talking about this bullshit 200 meters number again. Still doesn't wash.

Unless Falcon was moving at slower speed, but I agree, that this distance had to be greater than that.

BTW, why everyone keep bringing that 200m distance up? I thought that we agreed that it is invalid?[/quote]

That's the initial point of your entire thread you started! Or have you forgotten?!

[Kazeite]

Riiiiiiight, so once AGAIN, how does this invalidate what I SAID? re: the quad guns didn't need a changeout just as the navicomputer on the helm didn't need one. The software was upgraded, as it were.

Um, and what about that big console in the forward hold? Wasn't it used to plot course in ANH? But anyway, that is irrelevant (see lower)

Glad you agree, then. Does that clear it up for you? re: the quad guns didn't need a changeout?

I'm not sure if this point is relevant at all - after all, in DS scene Falcon showed much greater range than before.
So, like I said, that particular example of Falcon chasing T/F should be disregarded in favor of other evidence.
(Kinda like disregarding that silly 'Faster than light, no left or right' ST scene in favor of other evidence )

As we saw in TESB, the TIEs can keep up with the Falcon on a straightaway course.

So, we seem to agree that Falcon is slightly slower than TIEs?
That sure was some brave Imperial pilot. He must've had nerves od steel

BTW, why everyone keep bringing that 200m distance up? I thought that we agreed that it is invalid?

That's the initial point of your entire thread you started! Or have you forgotten?!

No, the initial point was that this particular example seemed to indicate very short weapons range of Falcon.

[Lord Poe]

Riiiiiiight, so once AGAIN, how does this invalidate what I SAID? re: the quad guns didn't need a changeout just as the navicomputer on the helm didn't need one. The software was upgraded, as it were.

Um, and what about that big console in the forward hold? Wasn't it used to plot course in ANH?

Dude, you remind me of Elim Garak at ASVS SO much....

Anyway, that was the tech station, not the navicomputer.

I'm not sure if this point is relevant at all - after all, in DS scene Falcon showed much greater range than before.
So, like I said, that particular example of Falcon chasing T/F should be disregarded in favor of other evidence.
(Kinda like disregarding that silly 'Faster than light, no left or right' ST scene in favor of other evidence )

Red Herring. That quote is completely relevent to Trek. But let's not get into that in this forum..

So, we seem to agree that Falcon is slightly slower than TIEs?
That sure was some brave Imperial pilot. He must've had nerves od steel

Onscreen, it looks like an even match to me.

No, the initial point was that this particular example seemed to indicate very short weapons range of Falcon.

Ok, so are we done here? All your questions answered?

[Lord Poe]

BTW Kazeite, you DO know that DarkStar is so full of shit that he calls a plumber for his headaches, don't you?

[Kazeite]

Dude, you remind me of Elim Garak at ASVS SO much....

Since I don't know the guy I won't be offended

Anyway, that was the tech station, not the navicomputer.

Oh. So, i guess you're right

Red Herring.

Excuse me? What is that 'red herring'?

Onscreen, it looks like an even match to me.

This one falls into combat tactics, hovewer all that TIE-views (scenes that were filmed 'throught the eyes' of attacking TIE) seemed to indicate greater speed. Those TIEs seemed to be able to catch up with Falcon, make an attack run, fly back, and etc.
But don't respond to that That is topic for another discussion

Ok, so are we done here? All your questions answered?

You can say so. Although I don't think Han was about to use that blaster cannon (we are taking about dude who fried poor Greedo with cold blood, after all ), but theory about "wild energy" works for me

Thank you all for your participation

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ugh, sarcasm, playing dumb, and too many smilies.

We've got a live one, here...

[Connor MacLeod]

Unless there's some temporal diplacement here, there' no way that ANH Falcon can be substituted with NJO Falcon.
I fully acknowledge that in NJO Falcon received an upgrade.

And you keep missing the point. Even if we accept the notion that the NJO era Falcon's range was the result of upgrades, the difference between the two cannot be substantial (maybe an order of magnitude, if not less. You don't jump from a few hundred meters or a few km to thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of tousnads of km in a few decades.)

Besides which, I included *pre* NJO sources that indicated longer weapons ranges. At the very minimum, the Falcon had a range well into the hundreds, if not thousands, of km scale.

If you don't like it, tough shit.

Um... I'm sorry, but I was unable to find it. Could you kindly quote it for me?

I find that hard to believe, since its on the same page you cite from the novelization about detecting the TIE before being fired upon - so I presume you are either not looking at the evidence or deliberately being trollish.

In any case: ANH novel, page 125

"Judging from the level of wild energy outside and the amount of solid waste, I'd guess that Alderaan has been... blown away. Totally."

And yet, according to novelization indicates that Han was able to detect T/F before he was fired upon by that T/F.

Yes, but he wasnt able to identify it:

Page 125: "Another ship," he announced. "Can't judge the type yet."

He could tell something that WAS a ship was out there, but didnt have enough sensor data for a clear confirmation (and thus unlikely to have had enough information for any sort of reliable target lock.) Besides which, what does this have to do with the Falcon's targeting ability? The Falcon isn't a TIE fighter.

In addition, according to "Ambush at corellia" the aft section of a ship is a blind spot for both sensors and visual scanning (due to the engines.) That would further hamper detection, since the TIE came up on them from almost directly behind.

Finally, a serius theory backed by semi-canon

Yet more of your "I don't take the EU seriously as a source" bullshit. Of course, we can ignore this since you don't have a say in canon policy, and your bullshit attempts to straightjacket the debate don't mean a thing.

Again, if you can't abide by use of the EU in debate, go debate elsewhere.

Excuse me, but I thought that most of SW gunnery is manual? (not counting missile weapons)

Obviously not, if Han was going to go for a sensor gun lock on the TIE fighter in the radio drama. Manual targeting/visual ranging can be more reliable in certain instances (like the high-EW situation at Yavin, due to the Death STar's EW, distortion fields, and the trench run itself ), but that by no means limits them COMPLETELY to manual targeting. There was at least one other mention of "sensor gun lock" in the radio dramas, but I dont remember exactly where - I think with the Tantive IV.

additionally, the guns on the devastator in the ANH novelization were described as "computerized" (page 13.). The novel description of the battle of Yavin makes numerous references to computer-assisted and computer targeting being used on both sides (both with rebel fighters, Imperial fighters, and gun emplacements.)

And what about targeting computers? You think they only use those with torps? Dodonna implied that lasers could have been used against the exhaust port had it not been for the ray shields - which in turn implies that the targeting computer can also work with laser cannons. (Besides which, we see Luke AND Vader use computerized targeting to lock onto enemy ships.)

Usually, a close parity between EW in opposing fighters leads to the reliance on visual targeting (ref: Han Solo at Star's End.)

That first T/F was also moving "in a fairly predictable straight-line path.", but nevertheless that dexcription is true.

The trench quite deliberately hampered mobility, and the Imperials didn't KNOW the Falcon was there. The Imperia pilot not only knew the Falcon was pursuing him, but was in a more open enviroment. If we factor in the EU, they know when another vessel is attempting to get a targeting lock on them (a "sensor gun lock", such as what Han was attempting to accomplish, would be noted by the pilot, who would seek to frustrate the efforts.)

This is also if we ignore the fact that they were in the midst of a planet's debris field very shortly after its annihilation.

[Slartibartfast]

So not owning a Ferrari makes me unable to reach the optimum speed in the Autobahn? Why would I allow for that serious disadvantage? Next you'll argue why would Han expose himself to danger by not owning a Star Destroyer.

LOL
Han does not own a ISD because he cannot afford it

Duh.

What makes you think there's a "full" capability?

Because there is. If I have a latest graphics acceleration card in my computer and only 16MB of RAM, then my computer is obviously unable to reach it's full potential.

From what we know, the actual laser bolt might even have near-unlimited range, and the effective range is only limited by targeting systems. So if I get a 10km effective targeting device, you'll argue why did I bother if I wasn't going to get a 100km device? And if I upgrade, you'll say it's pointless that I don't get a 500km targeting computer.

If you answered no to any of the above, then why do you allow for such a serious disadvantage?

Because I cannot afford it. But if I;m not going to use full potential of my computer, then what's the point of making any upgrades at all?

Thanks, that's what I needed to hear. Your logic dictates that, if you can't afford the latest, most expensive video card there's no point in upgrading your 2gb hard disk to a 30-80gb hard disk, or getting more RAM, or buying a sound card if you don't have one.

Of course, according to you that is evidence that the Falcon planned on crashing into the trench (which you think outweighs the evidence that it *didn't*).

Don't try that trick on me. I didn't said that Falcon was about to crash into the trench - obviously, after 10 seconds Han changed direction of the flight

There's no "trick". According to you everyone in every battle should panic because ships are always traveling in their general direction. Because you know, in battle, ships always "look" like they're going to crash into others (if they stayed in that course for 10+ seconds )

Maybe the wingman acted like he was about to be shot by the Falcon, like the other (dead) wingman? Probably you think your explanation makes the more sense.

What explanation? I didn't had any explanation, and that's precisely why I asked that question! And you gave an answer. Reasonable one, if I may add.

Untrue.

And regarding your previous post - if Falcon was far from DS, can you explain Vader's wingman actions? He acted like he was about to be rammed by Falcon.

You stated that he acted like he was about to be rammed, which you argued that proved that the Falcon was NOT far from DS. You didn't ask wheter he did so or he wanted to avoid getting shot. You made a rethoric question: "how do you explain that, huh?"

[Kazeite]

And you keep missing the point. Even if we accept the notion that the NJO era Falcon's range was the result of upgrades, the difference between the two cannot be substantial (maybe an order of magnitude, if not less. You don't jump from a few hundred meters or a few km to thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of tousnads of km in a few decades.)

I don't know the actual nature of those upgrades, so it's possible that I'm missing the point. But... tell me: how's that possible at all, that in those 20> years range of the cannons itself increased so much?

If you don't like it, tough shit.

Unlike other persons I don't respond to rudeness with rudeness.

I find that hard to believe, since its on the same page you cite from the novelization about detecting the TIE before being fired upon

Well, duh, look at my location and maybe you'll find it easier to believe.

You see, I'm from Poland, and I don't posses English novelizations. I only have translated books, whose translation can be deceiving.
In this case, my translated ANH novel, page 146 says: "Judging from amounts of radations detectable here one could suppose that Alderaan was destroyed. Totally."

That's why I was unable to find that particular quote - because it wasn't there.

"Judging from the level of wild energy outside and the amount of solid waste, I'd guess that Alderaan has been... blown away. Totally."

Thank you.

Besides which, what does this have to do with the Falcon's targeting ability? The Falcon isn't a TIE fighter.

I don't understand your line of reasoning. Of course Falcon is not a T/F.

Yet more of your "I don't take the EU seriously as a source" bullshit.

Yet more of your "I assume that guy doesn't take the EU seriously as a source." bull... excuse me... assumption

Of course, we can ignore this since you don't have a say in canon policy, and your bullshit attempts to straightjacket the debate don't mean a thing.

...since, of course you personally tell George Lucas what is and what is not canon

additionally, the guns on the devastator in the ANH novelization were described as "computerized" (page 13.).

Guess what, I can't find it either
I assume that you are referring to the "No lifesigns on escape pod" scene?

(Besides which, we see Luke AND Vader use computerized targeting to lock onto enemy ships.)

Then I assume that you haven't played X-wing.

This is also if we ignore the fact that they were in the midst of a planet's debris field very shortly after its annihilation.

Well, that's very easy to ignore, because by the time Han was chasing T/F they were already outside planet's debris field.

From what we know, the actual laser bolt might even have near-unlimited range, and the effective range is only limited by targeting systems.

And what about that 'flak' effect we observe in TESB?

Thanks, that's what I needed to hear. Your logic dictates that, if you can't afford the latest, most expensive video card there's no point in upgrading your 2gb hard disk to a 30-80gb hard disk, or getting more RAM, or buying a sound card if you don't have one.

There's no point in buying new hardware if I can't use its full capabilities. THAT'S what my logic dictates.

There's no "trick". According to you everyone in every battle should panic because ships are always traveling in their general direction.

There, you use that trick again. Tell me, are you a telepath? Because you seem to know what I think and what I said better than myself!

And, according to ANH novel T/F pilot indeed thought that Falcon was trying to ram him. (Unless of course my translations isn't screwed again )

Untrue.

And regarding your previous post - if Falcon was far from DS, can you explain Vader's wingman actions? He acted like he was about to be rammed by Falcon.

You stated that he acted like he was about to be rammed, which you argued that proved that the Falcon was NOT far from DS.

Untrue.
I asked if you can explain wingmans actions who "acted like he was about to be rammed by Falcon." Period.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't know the actual nature of those upgrades, so it's possible that I'm missing the point. But... tell me: how's that possible at all, that in those 20> years range of the cannons itself increased so much?

The point is, it didn't. Are you somehow unable to grasp the idea that whatever ranges the canon displays, even if they SEEM contradictory to you, are not neccesarily so? So yes, you ARE missing the point (and ignoring the official evidence. If you weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

Unlike other persons I don't respond to rudeness with rudeness.

And what bearing does that have on the discussion? Or is this a "Style over substance" fallacy? If you're going to be a fool, be prepared to be called on it.

Well, duh, look at my location and maybe you'll find it easier to believe.

You see, I'm from Poland, and I don't posses English novelizations. I only have translated books, whose translation can be deceiving.
In this case, my translated ANH novel, page 146 says: "Judging from amounts of radations detectable here one could suppose that Alderaan was destroyed. Totally."

Given you apparently can speak english, I rather doubt that. But even if its true, it still doesnt explain you missing the reference (unless it was deleted.)

I don't understand your line of reasoning. Of course Falcon is not a T/F.

You mentioend the Falcon detecting a ship before the TIE fired on the ship (in addition to ignoring all my other points.) The TIE is the only vessel firing in that scene, hence my question.

Yet more of your "I assume that guy doesn't take the EU seriously as a source." bull... excuse me... assumption

Were that true, this debate would have ended a long time ago.

...since, of course you personally tell George Lucas what is and what is not canon

Ignoring the EU again, apparently Unless you can prove that canon somehow irreconcilably conflicts with the EU, (IE there is a range much shorter than what the EU claims and there is no way to explain the shorter range.)

Guess what, I can't find it either
I assume that you are referring to the "No lifesigns on escape pod" scene?

Yes. Page 13: "There goes another pod, sir. Instructions?" The officer's hand hovered over a computerized energy battery."

Then I assume that you haven't played X-wing.

Yes, I have. but the targeting in the movies isnt like X-wing, is it? At worst, canon overrides official. however, one need not assume that - since an X-wing could conceivably use different kinds of targeting.

I note you *finally* decided to use EU evidence (predictably when it suits your purposes. )

Well, that's very easy to ignore, because by the time Han was chasing T/F they were already outside planet's debris field.

I re-checked. You're correct in this respect.

However, it doesnt change any of the other points I mentioned, or anyone (particularily Wayne) mentioned.

[ClaysGhost]

Usually, a close parity between EW in opposing fighters leads to the reliance on visual targeting (ref: Han Solo at Star's End.)

Why can't the computers use visible-band sensors?

The trench quite deliberately hampered mobility, and the Imperials didn't KNOW the Falcon was there. The Imperia pilot not only knew the Falcon was pursuing him, but was in a more open enviroment. If we factor in the EU, they know when another vessel is attempting to get a targeting lock on them (a "sensor gun lock", such as what Han was attempting to accomplish, would be noted by the pilot, who would seek to frustrate the efforts.)

Why can they detect it? That suggests the system is trying to range the target. If the emissions from the weapons on the Falcon travel at light-speed, ranging should be unnecessary unless you're talking light-seconds range (and what fighter would be concerned with such distances?), and it's a simple case of pin the tail on the donkey for the computer. Instead, targetting computers seem pretty shit. Not only can they be beaten by jamming where the human eye (the human eye!) can prevail, most of the pilots in ANH seem uncertain that the computer can hit the exhaust port with a guided (and probably self-guiding) weapon when they know location, size and their own probable speed, and the presumably computer-controlled turrets defending the DS and various other ships either ignore or miss fighters, when same fighters are at whites-of-the eyes ranges.

This is also if we ignore the fact that they were in the midst of a planet's debris field very shortly after its annihilation.

None of the debris is glowing (probably not surprising since it's going to radiate at a rate proportional to the forth power of temperature); most of the DS energy seems to have gone into the kinetic energy of the fragments. Why should there still be enough around to disturb a targetting sensor when the TIE is visually clear enough for Han to see it, identify it and pursue it?

[Kazeite]

The point is, it didn't. Are you somehow unable to grasp the idea that whatever ranges the canon displays, even if they SEEM contradictory to you, are not neccesarily so?

Don't forget this work both ways.

And what bearing does that have on the discussion?

None whatsoever. If you are going to be rude, don't expect me to do the same.

Given you apparently can speak english,

Well, duh

I rather doubt that. But even if its true, it still doesn't explain you missing the reference (unless it was deleted.)

Let me explain to you again: there are many languages around the world, not only English. There are many books around the world in many languages, not only English. And there are people called 'translators', who translate those books into other languages. During that process they sometime distort translated text.

So, in that case "Judging from the level of wild energy outside and the amount of solid waste, I'd guess that Alderaan has been... blown away. Totally."
was translated into
"Sadzac po wykrywalnym tutaj stezeniu promieniowania, mozna by przypuszczac, ze Alderaan zostal zniszczony. Calkowicie."
which translated back to English means:
"Judging from amounts of radations detectable here one could suppose that Alderaan was destroyed. Totally."

You mentioend the Falcon detecting a ship before the TIE fired on the ship (in addition to ignoring all my other points.) The TIE is the only vessel firing in that scene, hence my question.

What does it have to do with Falcon range? T/F obviously fired drom a point blank range and then pretended to be a lost soul
And I have a habit of deleting obvious statements, like
"He could tell something that WAS a ship was out there, but didn't have enough sensor data for a clear confirmation (and thus unlikely to have had enough information for any sort of reliable target lock.)"

This is true, so why should I not cut it to compress post size?

Unless you can prove that canon somehow irreconcilably conflicts with the EU,

Since you asked so nicely...
For example, if I'm not mistaken, EU sorces claims that every MMT holds 112 battle droids, which is inconsistent with movie evidence.

"And what bearing does that have on the weapons discussion?" - you'll probably ask?
Everything. One could argue that EU is right except that one detail, but that 'one minor detail" means that someone in EU universe designed MMTs differently, there was greater number of droids produced to fit those racks, there were more resources expended, which could've been used to produce other things...

Chaos theory at it finest.

So, even the different mark of paint on Falcon hull can make a difference in weapons range.

You'll probably disregard that line of reasoning, so, let me asky my question:

Can you prove that canon is in complete harmony with the EU?

Yes, I have. But the targeting in the movies isn't like X-wing, is it?

Well... it is. Pilots in fighters use rudders trying to line up targets with their targeting displays. When that happens, they pull trigger and they fire.

There's difference between 'targeting done by computer' and 'computer assisted targeting'.

I note you *finally* decided to use EU evidence (predictably when it suits your purposes. )

You are reffering to the "X-wing" game?

[Lord Poe]

Scooter's 200m range for the Falcon is probably the most idiotic thing on his website. Check this out; if the Falcon's weapon range was 200 meters, this is how the trench run scene plays out:

Falcon is diving down to the trench in order to vape Vader's wingman. Solo waits until he's 200 meters from the target before he fires. From the explosion of the TIE until we see the Falcon pull out of the dive is about 10 seconds. What's the Falcon's speed? Well, in TESB, we know the speed during the attack on Avenger is in excess of 500 meters per second.

http://h4h.com/louis/maneuv.html#update1

Now just to be nitpicky, let's say the Falcon had an upgrade between ANH and TESB. So let's say that the Falcon's best sublight speed in ANH is 200 meters per second. In ten seconds, the Falcon would travel 2,000 meters, right?

Again, did anyone see the Falcon slam into the Death Star? Neither did I.

[Darth Servo]

Of course, RSA will come up with a stupid excuse to ignore this, like "maybe the Falcon was hovering over the DS" or "the Falcon could have been running parallel to the trench when it fired" even though neither of these fits the facts, but that's never bothered RSA before.

[Kazeite]

Scooter's 200m range for the Falcon is probably the most idiotic thing on his website.

If we take into consideration this scene and only this scene (as he did), plus if we assume that his calculations are correct (and you say they are not) it seems reasonable.

But of course there are other examples.

What's the Falcon's speed? Well, in TESB, we know the speed during the attack on Avenger is in excess of 500 meters per second.

You mean this funny page about Falcon speed? It was very entertaining to read. That guy for example bashed Scooter because he added 20cm to the length of Falcon

Seriously, Falcon couldn't fly with the speed of 500m/s. Why? Because it took about 7 seconds to fly through entire length of ISD. This means Falcon speed was about 230m/s (1600/7). And this assumes that Avenger was standing still.

Now just to be nitpicky, let's say the Falcon had an upgrade between ANH and TESB. So let's say that the Falcon's best sublight speed in ANH is 200 meters per second. In ten seconds, the Falcon would travel 2,000 meters, right?

Just to be nitpicky, we don't actually know when Han pulled up. That change of course we saw was only part of 360 loop he performed to get above Luke (according to novelization).
I repeat, just to be nitpicky

But still my calculated speed is actually bigger than your later assumption, so your point remains valid.

[Lord Poe]

You mean this funny page about Falcon speed? It was very entertaining to read. That guy for example bashed Scooter because he added 20cm to the length of Falcon

Seriously, Falcon couldn't fly with the speed of 500m/s. Why? Because it took about 7 seconds to fly through entire length of ISD. This means Falcon speed was about 230m/s (1600/7). And this assumes that Avenger was standing still.

Sorry But you're wrong. Read the page again. It is correct.

Just to be nitpicky, we don't actually know when Han pulled up.

Um, Byk-Gówno.

[Guardian 2000]

Kazeite, you may as well give up. These rabid Warsies will never acknowledge my superior intellect. I'm glad you're a fan of my website though!

[Robert Treder]

Kazeite, you may as well give up. These rabid Warsies will never acknowledge my superior intellect.

Whattaya know? He actually speaks the truth here. Kazeite really may as well give up, and we will never acknowledge RSA's superior intellect, seeing as it doesn't exist.

Nice work, Scooter. You actually got something right.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't forget this work both ways.

Ah. Is this meant to be a "If you take that route I am going to use it against you" threat? By all means do so. I dont mind. I rather believe strongly in looking at all the facts.

And what bearing does that have on the discussion?

None whatsoever. If you are going to be rude, don't expect me to do the same.

Let me explain to you again: there are many languages around the world, not only English. There are many books around the world in many languages, not only English. And there are people called 'translators', who translate those books into other languages. During that process they sometime distort translated text.

So, in that case "Judging from the level of wild energy outside and the amount of solid waste, I'd guess that Alderaan has been... blown away. Totally."
was translated into
"Sadzac po wykrywalnym tutaj stezeniu promieniowania, mozna by przypuszczac, ze Alderaan zostal zniszczony. Calkowicie."
which translated back to English means:
"Judging from amounts of radations detectable here one could suppose that Alderaan was destroyed. Totally."

So because a few words are changed you're unable to find the reference at all?

What does it have to do with Falcon range? T/F obviously fired drom a point blank range and then pretended to be a lost soul
And I have a habit of deleting obvious statements, like
"He could tell something that WAS a ship was out there, but didn't have enough sensor data for a clear confirmation (and thus unlikely to have had enough information for any sort of reliable target lock.)"

A simple "I concede" or "I agree" would suffice, rather than going off on a tangent about the TIEs, which constituted a secondary or even tertiary point in my response.

This is true, so why should I not cut it to compress post size?

So why cut a fragment concerning the TIE from the rest of my statement(s)? You virtually ignored the rest of the post.

Since you asked so nicely...
For example, if I'm not mistaken, EU sorces claims that every MMT holds 112 battle droids, which is inconsistent with movie evidence.

"And what bearing does that have on the weapons discussion?" - you'll probably ask?
Everything. One could argue that EU is right except that one detail, but that 'one minor detail" means that someone in EU universe designed MMTs differently, there was greater number of droids produced to fit those racks, there were more resources expended, which could've been used to produce other things...

And this little tirade has relevance to our discussion how, Captain Obvious?

So, even the different mark of paint on Falcon hull can make a difference in weapons range.

You'll probably disregard that line of reasoning, so, let me asky my question:

Can you prove that canon is in complete harmony with the EU?

Canon doesnt need to be. The proof of conflict betwene canon and EU I demanded from you was that canon irreconcilably shows something different from what the EU shows. In such a case, canon rules. But one must prove the claim for this to be so, which is YOUR problem.

Well... it is. Pilots in fighters use rudders trying to line up targets with their targeting displays. When that happens, they pull trigger and they fire.

Complicated by the fact the target is also moving, the speeds involved, whether or not the guns are fixed or not, EW, etc. In the case of Yavin, there was jamming/distortion strong enough that it AFFECTED THE MANUVERABILITY of fighters (During the Dodonna Briefing in the ANH novelization, he mentions reduced mobility.)

There's difference between 'targeting done by computer' and 'computer assisted targeting'.

Granted on this point. But they can clearly use both forms (as well as purely manual). I've provided sufficient references to both kinds. In the case of the movies, we see computerized targeting and half manual/half automatic targeting (which is further backed by Radio drama and novel references.)

the X-wing game's is more or less manual (you physically must center teh target in your sites, etc.)

You are reffering to the "X-wing" game?

Of course. You referenced it. I take it you're reconsidering your "I'm not here to discuss EU" po licy?

[Connor MacLeod]

Why can't the computers use visible-band sensors?

Who says they can't?

Page 194: "Maintain visual scanning," Blue Leader directed. "With all this energy flying, they'll be on top of you before your scope can pick them up. Remember, they can jam every instrument on your ship except your eyes."

The ONLY reliable method of detection was the Mk1 eyeball.

On top of that, Dodonna clearly states on page 181: "Also, their field generators will probably create alot of distortion, especially in and around the trench. I figure that manuverability in that sector will be less than point three." This produced more murmurs and a few groans from the assembly.

In other words, they're distorting spacetime to hamper mobility (possibly the jammers.. but this might be some tractor-beam like technology - what it is is irrelevant ATM) - but that also means it would foul up optical targeting.

Why can they detect it? That suggests the system is trying to range the target.

Perhaps because its an active sensor pulse? I imagine you'd need to use a couple of those to get a solid "lock" on a target. If you're using sensor or computer-assisted targeting that is. (Manual targeting would carry its own limitations.) I imagine you dont always get a shot off just because you get a "lock on" flicker.

If the emissions from the weapons on the Falcon travel at light-speed, ranging should be unnecessary unless you're talking light-seconds range (and what fighter would be concerned with such distances?), and it's a simple case of pin the tail on the donkey for the computer.

Not quite. Beam weapons require pin-point precision to land on target (they have a fairly narrow focal point) and targets like TIEs have very narrow profiles. And there is still EW.

Instead, targetting computers seem pretty shit. Not only can they be beaten by jamming where the human eye (the human eye!) can prevail, most of the pilots in ANH seem uncertain that the computer can hit the exhaust port with a guided (and probably self-guiding) weapon when they know location, size and their own probable speed, and the presumably computer-controlled turrets defending the DS and various other ships either ignore or miss fighters, when same fighters are at whites-of-the eyes ranges.

Jamming, distortion fields, take your pick in the case of Yavin. If you remember, also, that they only felt the targeting computer COULD make the hit under the conditions of the Death Star battle (jamming, distortion, etc.)

None of the debris is glowing (probably not surprising since it's going to radiate at a rate proportional to the forth power of temperature); most of the DS energy seems to have gone into the kinetic energy of the fragments. Why should there still be enough around to disturb a targetting sensor when the TIE is visually clear enough for Han to see it, identify it and pursue it?

I already conceded about the debris. Did you miss that?

[Kazeite]

Ah. Is this meant to be a "If you take that route I am going to use it against you" threat?

No. It means that you may be somehow unable to grasp the idea that whatever ranges the NJO displays they may be actually wrong?

So because a few words are changed you're unable to find the reference at all?

Yes! Because that's exactly what happened! You speak about some 'wild energy', and I'm unable to find it becasue that phrase was translated differently.

And this little tirade has relevance to our discussion how, Captain Obvious?

Just call me Mighty Morphin' Power Kazeite

This little dirade was answer to your question about my proof, in case you forgot, Captain Sclerosis

But one must prove the claim for this to be so, which is YOUR problem.

And now one must disprove chaos theory, which is you problem.

Well... it is. Pilots in fighters use rudders trying to line up targets with their targeting displays. When that happens, they pull trigger and they fire.

Complicated by the fact the target is also moving, the speeds involved, whether or not the guns are fixed or not, EW, etc.

I agree. But that still doesn't seem any different from WW2 and modern gunfights.

(During the Dodonna Briefing in the ANH novelization, he mentions reduced mobility.)

However, if I'm not mistaken, he doesn't say that in the actual movie. Unless he said that when camera wasn't looking, this doesn't count as the proof for reduced mobility. (because "canon overrides official").

Granted on this point. But they can clearly use both forms (as well as purely manual). I've provided sufficient references to both kinds.

You are reffering to your previous post that "Manual targeting/visual ranging can be more reliable in certain instances (...), but that by no means limits them COMPLETELY to manual targeting."?

That true, of course, but during DS trench run they were still able to use targeting computers.

In the case of the movies, we see computerized targeting and half manual/half automatic targeting (which is further backed by Radio drama and novel references.)

Oh, you mean laser blasts striking off-center, right? Personally I would disregard them as VFX errors, but I agree that makes movies different from X-wing game.

Of course. You referenced it. I take it you're reconsidering your "I'm not here to discuss EU" po licy?

Oh, I didn't know that. Oh well, so let's review all sources:

ANH Alderaan scene: <500m

ANH Trench run: 3km (very rough estimate. Feel free to disagree with it.)

ROTJ battle: <1 km, but this rather can't be considered "maximum range".

X-wing series games: 1.2 km. (in early games laser blast were just dissapearing after that distance, in 'Alliance' they explode.)

"Han Solo at Star's End" - tens to hundreds of km.

NJO - um, even more?

[Lord Poe]

However, if I'm not mistaken, he doesn't say that in the actual movie. Unless he said that when camera wasn't looking, this doesn't count as the proof for reduced mobility. (because "canon overrides official").

Maybe you should get your facts straight before continuing. The novelizations are canon, not "official".

[Illuminatus Primus]

There's been some confusion of late regarding the 'Infinities' symbol, and Star Wars Expanded Universe continuity in general. Terms like "canon" and "continuity" tend to get thrown around casually, which doesn't help at all.

When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible.

As we see here, canon is only identified with the movies.

Novelisations and radio dramas are a higher-tier of official, but still official.

As are EU sources.

Here's the thread page where I made a general continuity hierarchy based on all evidence and justified why I did everything.

Here it is:

Absolute Canon: (also known as Pure Canon, Movie Canon)
Star Wars Movies
George Lucas' statements (some are inconsistent with his actual films and are often subject to frequent change)

Near-Canon:
LFL Continuity Fixes/Changes
Official Screenplays/Scripts
Movie Novelisations and Radio Dramas
Movie Comic Adaptations

High-level Official:
Incredible Cross Sections + Worlds of... series.
Holonetnews.net and it’s SW Insider incarnation
Visual Dictionaries
SW.com (fits here; Official site but not made by Lucas)

General EU Official:
Novels
Comics (Dark Horse and most Marvel)
Games

EU Reference Sources Official:
Essential Guides
RPG Sourcebooks

Low-level EU:
Certain Games and Certain Marvel comics, other stories which are difficult to reconcile w/out fixes. (Definitely includes lamentable examples of EU literature, such as the Glove of Darth Vader series, which exists in continuity only as a vague version of the overall points of that storyline).

[Kazeite]

Maybe you should get your facts straight before continuing. The novelizations are canon, not "official".

Novelisations and radio dramas are a higher-tier of official, but still official.

Now I'm thoroughly confused