Two things about ESB:

[Patrick Ogaard]

The question of the Falcon using its landing claws to hold onto the back of the bridge tower never struck me as particularly problematic.

Well, my only problem was that the ISD had just left an asteroid field and was shielded.

No problem there as long as the shielding in that area runs as the extreme type of hull-hugger described in some official materials. In those descriptions, the particle shields run along the uppermost layer of molecules of the ship's hull plating. That reinforces the armor and economizes on shield volume. Also, remember that astromech droids are also used during actual battle conditions to carry out emergency repairs, and the astromech droids have to use magnetic grippers to get along on the hull. Therefore, the particle shields should not interfere with magnetic grippers. As for the ray shields, they would not interfere directly with the Falcon.

[Patrick Ogaard]

On the matter of shields stopping vessels that are using conventional Star Wars ion engines, the AOTC ICS provides the necessary information. Basically, the normal engines of a fighter or larger craft use particles ejected at extremely high velocity to push the vehicle forward. The particles are small enough that an active shield can bring the velocity of that exhaust down to zero as it emerges from the engine. That reduces forward thrust to zero and also produces what is effectively a cork in the exhaust port, so that the engine could shake itself to pieces or even explode.

Does it apply only to the line of the shield or everywhere under the shield? In the former case friendly starfighters can be used without restriction (except not to cross the shield). In the latter case how can people breath?

The effect does not appear to apply anywhere but at the actual "surface" of the shield. The problem would be that a fighter that overshoots, maneuvers hard to avoid enemy fire, or climbs just a bit too high. A fighter that opens up its throttle can easily reach orbit within seconds, so one wrong reaction could easily send a fighter slamming into the ground or the shield canopy overhead unless the fighter flies no faster than an airspeeder. That would make the fighter as easy to target as an airspeeder of equivalent size.

Although, come to think of it, what one would get if the particle shields were modified to affect everything inside the shielded area is...a possible stasis field ideal for keeping food fresh as long as the field stays powered up, or keeping political prisoners fresh between interrogation sessions.

[vakundok]

No problem there as long as the shielding in that area runs as the extreme type of hull-hugger described in some official materials. In those descriptions, the particle shields run along the uppermost layer of molecules of the ship's hull plating. That reinforces the armor and economizes on shield volume. Also, remember that astromech droids are also used during actual battle conditions to carry out emergency repairs, and the astromech droids have to use magnetic grippers to get along on the hull. Therefore, the particle shields should not interfere with magnetic grippers. As for the ray shields, they would not interfere directly with the Falcon.

So, hull conformal particle shield that enables magnetic interactions through itself. Thanks.

[vakundok]

The effect does not appear to apply anywhere but at the actual "surface" of the shield. The problem would be that a fighter that overshoots, maneuvers hard to avoid enemy fire, or climbs just a bit too high. A fighter that opens up its throttle can easily reach orbit within seconds, so one wrong reaction could easily send a fighter slamming into the ground or the shield canopy overhead unless the fighter flies no faster than an airspeeder. That would make the fighter as easy to target as an airspeeder of equivalent size.

So, they CAN use their normal engines as well as their repulsors within the shield perimeter. Watching the combat situations throughout the movies the starfighters never flew visibly faster than a speeder could so the pilots were familiar with that slow speed.
The facts are:
-On Hoth there were unused fighters during the battle (canon).
-The starfighters can be used under the shield (official but does not contradict canon).
-The rebell starfighters had torpedo launchers and they were prepared (canon).
-Older type torpedoes worked under gravity and atmospheric conditions without problem (at least in short range) (canon).
-Older type starfighter worked well under gravity and atmospheric conditions (canon).
Question:
-Why they were not used?
Possible answers:
-The guns (in atmosphere) and torpedoes are not significantly stronger than the guns of the speeders and still too weak to take out an AT-AT.

Other possible answers?

[Patrick Ogaard]

The effect does not appear to apply anywhere but at the actual "surface" of the shield. The problem would be that a fighter that overshoots, maneuvers hard to avoid enemy fire, or climbs just a bit too high. A fighter that opens up its throttle can easily reach orbit within seconds, so one wrong reaction could easily send a fighter slamming into the ground or the shield canopy overhead unless the fighter flies no faster than an airspeeder. That would make the fighter as easy to target as an airspeeder of equivalent size.

So, they CAN use their normal engines as well as their repulsors within the shield perimeter. Watching the combat situations throughout the movies the starfighters never flew visibly faster than a speeder could so the pilots were familiar with that slow speed.
The facts are:
-On Hoth there were unused fighters during the battle (canon).
-The starfighters can be used under the shield (official but does not contradict canon).
-The rebell starfighters had torpedo launchers and they were prepared (canon).
-Older type torpedoes worked under gravity and atmospheric conditions without problem (at least in short range) (canon).
-Older type starfighter worked well under gravity and atmospheric conditions (canon).
Question:
-Why they were not used?
Possible answers:
-The guns (in atmosphere) and torpedoes are not significantly stronger than the guns of the speeders and still too weak to take out an AT-AT.

Other possible answers?

A lack of appropriate tropedoes might be a partial answer. The Rebels apparently had a lot of trouble obtaining reliable supplies of proton torpedoes, so there might simply not have been enough on hand to make a difference. If those torpedoes that were available were shipbreakers or even just multikiloton to multimegaton explosives, using them within the shield perimeter might well have been suicidal. Turning the defending rebel troops into flash-fried crispy critters would have been a poor choice.

Also, there was definitely a limited number of fighters available. The battle against the AT-ATs was purely a holding action that could not, in the end, be won. Risking fighter assets that could better be used as escorts for transports or in later attacks against the Empire would not necessarily have been a good idea.

[vakundok]

A lack of appropriate tropedoes might be a partial answer. The Rebels apparently had a lot of trouble obtaining reliable supplies of proton torpedoes, so there might simply not have been enough on hand to make a difference. If those torpedoes that were available were shipbreakers or even just multikiloton to multimegaton explosives, using them within the shield perimeter might well have been suicidal. Turning the defending rebel troops into flash-fried crispy critters would have been a poor choice.

I doubt that the launchers were empty. They seemed to be quite well equipped with other older weapons. And it still leaves the question of the guns open. I have never heard abut different proton torpedoes, Could you tell me more about them?

Also, there was definitely a limited number of fighters available. The battle against the AT-ATs was purely a holding action that could not, in the end, be won. Risking fighter assets that could better be used as escorts for transports or in later attacks against the Empire would not necessarily have been a good idea.

No, not definitely. There were two fighters shown and three or four other pilots (including Wedge) most likely heading to their fighters. During the battle only four AT-ATs was shown. So, the number can be higher even much higher. Besides a won battle (against the first wave) would be the most effective holding and could result a normal (orderly) evacuation unlike that happened.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Although, come to think of it, what one would get if the particle shields were modified to affect everything inside the shielded area is...a possible stasis field ideal for keeping food fresh as long as the field stays powered up, or keeping political prisoners fresh between interrogation sessions.

They already have time-retardation fields.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Although, come to think of it, what one would get if the particle shields were modified to affect everything inside the shielded area is...a possible stasis field ideal for keeping food fresh as long as the field stays powered up, or keeping political prisoners fresh between interrogation sessions.

They already have time-retardation fields.

Which ones do they have? The EU is a big place and probably has a lot of stuff I'm not aware of. The only ones I'm familiar with are the stasis fields used to keep things like food fresh permanently and the ones that the prison facility of Stars' End used to keep political prisoners on ice while not being tortured and interrogated. Either of those applications could be taken care of by a technology based on a form of particle shielding. In effect, the particle shield, if the interface is expanded to completely fill the area encompassed by the shield, would keep anything inside at absolute zero if the shield system is powerful enough. For most purposes that would qualify as stopping time inside the field.

[Patrick Ogaard]

A lack of appropriate tropedoes... *snip my own stuff*

I doubt that the launchers were empty. They seemed to be quite well equipped with other older weapons. And it still leaves the question of the guns open. I have never heard abut different proton torpedoes, Could you tell me more about them?

Also, there was definitely a limited number of fighters available. The battle against the AT-ATs was purely a holding action that could not, in the end, be won. Risking fighter assets that could better be used as escorts for transports or in later attacks against the Empire would not necessarily have been a good idea.

No, not definitely. There were two fighters shown and three or four other pilots (including Wedge) most likely heading to their fighters. During the battle only four AT-ATs was shown. So, the number can be higher even much higher. Besides a won battle (against the first wave) would be the most effective holding and could result a normal (orderly) evacuation unlike that happened.

According to the Star Wars ICS, proton torpedoes "are very expensive and available to Alliance forces only in limited numbers. Luke Skywalker carried only a single pair for his critical shots that destroyed the original Death Star."

That indicates that proton torpedoes may have been in critically short supply at the Battle of Hoth.

On the topic of variable yields you will probably have better luck checking with some of the EU experts on the boards. Proton torpedoes are focused nuclear explosives, effectively nuclear shaped charge warheads. The general assumption is that standard torpedoes for use against fighters and lighter ground targets have yields of tens or hundreds of kilotons, possibly edging into megatons for the more powerful models. The torpedoes used in strikes against capital ships are assumed to go well into the multigigaton range (which might even scratch the paintjob of an ISD and take out individual surface features that are not perfectly protected by the shields).

The actual force deployed by General Veers is ultimately not known. It seems likely that we got to see only the spearhead of the armored assault force. If Vader's squadron was composed primarily of six ISDs and one command ship, then Veers had at least 145 AT-ATs and 230 AT-STs potentially available for deployment, plus the "various other ground assault vehicles" the command ship carried. The force should have also had over a hundred Sentinel assault craft available to swoop down and deploy reinforced stormtrooper platoons as soon as the shield dropped. It's extremely unlikely that Veers would have been allowed to use that entire force of ground vehicles, but I would bet on a significant portion, based simply on the oft-displayed Imperial philosophy of "more is better and too much really is just about adequate."
[/i]

[vakundok]

So it is a possible answer that the guns of the X-wings were not powerfull enough in an atmosphere to take out an AT-AT and torpedoes were on extremely short supply.

Hmm, interesting. So, the hero who saved Leia and gave a chance to the alliance was awarded by a fighter (which seemed to be new to me) with nearly no torpedo ammunition?

Ouch! Thanks but I do not really like the multi- terraton weapon calculations. The basic that there are more type of torpedoes is enough for me.

Since it is likely that only a small portion of the imperial assault forces were shown it is also possible thet the rebells had more fighters we saw.

[Patrick Ogaard]

So it is a possible answer that the guns of the X-wings were not powerfull enough in an atmosphere to take out an AT-AT and torpedoes were on extremely short supply.

Hmm, interesting. So, the hero who saved Leia and gave a chance to the alliance was awarded by a fighter (which seemed to be new to me) with nearly no torpedo ammunition?

Ouch! Thanks but I do not really like the multi- terraton weapon calculations. The basic that there are more type of torpedoes is enough for me.

Since it is likely that only a small portion of the imperial assault forces were shown it is also possible thet the rebells had more fighters we saw.

I would call the size of the Imperial assault forces and the size of the force of Rebel defenders a wash. Ultimately, the forces that we actually saw fighting each other are the ones we actually saw, and I will assume that if the Imperials brought in more forces than were seen then the Rebels deployed more defenders (likely defending secondary approaches).

Somewhere on this board is a thread that discusses the matter of X-Wings taking out AT-ATs. Apparently it did happen in official literature (with Wedge and his crew doing the flying), though not on Hoth. All that I recall is that it was supposed to have taken more than one volley from an X-Wing to take out an AT-AT. Specifically, it was supposed to have been an attack on the top rear of the AT-AT, a volley of fire being directed at armor already damaged by a previous attack.

According to the EGVV, the AT-AT has a fuel slug system slung under its main body, presumably to power the drive train. The SW:ICS indicates that the top rear of the AT-AT has a reactor (liquid, with rods in the liquid), presumably to power the internal systems and especially the guns. The X-Wing strike penetrated the armor and the reactor blew up, catastrophically destroying the AT-AT.

Looking at the AOTC ICS, the midships guns of Slave I are rated at 2 kilotons per shot. It is noted that they are typical of gunships and heavy fighters. Since the X-Wing is certainly a heavy space superiority fighter, and its laser cannon are noted as being particularly powerful, hard-hitting and long-ranged models, 2 kilotons per gun seems not unreasonable, or possibly even up to 3 kilotons. That would give an X-Wing a firepower of 8 to 12 kilotons per four-gun volley.

The EGVV notes that the paired proton torpedoes launched by an X-Wing have nearly twice the explosive power as all four of the X-Wing's laser cannon firing simultaneously. That, as a really rough estimate, indicates that one standard proton torpedo should have something in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 kilotons of directed explosive power.

[vakundok]

I would call the size of the Imperial assault forces and the size of the force of Rebel defenders a wash. Ultimately, the forces that we actually saw fighting each other are the ones we actually saw, and I will assume that if the Imperials brought in more forces than were seen then the Rebels deployed more defenders (likely defending secondary approaches).

We saw two surviving AT-ATs and definitely two unused fighters and indicators for another 4~5. (The fact that previous escorts were fighter pairs +1, and the pilots +3~4.)

Somewhere on this board is a thread that discusses the matter of X-Wings taking out AT-ATs. Apparently it did happen in official literature (with Wedge and his crew doing the flying), though not on Hoth. All that I recall is that it was supposed to have taken more than one volley from an X-Wing to take out an AT-AT. Specifically, it was supposed to have been an attack on the top rear of the AT-AT, a volley of fire being directed at armor already damaged by a previous attack.

According to the EGVV, the AT-AT has a fuel slug system slung under its main body, presumably to power the drive train. The SW:ICS indicates that the top rear of the AT-AT has a reactor (liquid, with rods in the liquid), presumably to power the internal systems and especially the guns. The X-Wing strike penetrated the armor and the reactor blew up, catastrophically destroying the AT-AT.

X-wings able to take out an AT-AT (witk several run) only lead back to the question: Why they were not used against the AT-ATs?

[Darth Servo]

We saw two surviving AT-ATs and definitely two unused fighters and indicators for another 4~5. (The fact that previous escorts were fighter pairs +1, and the pilots +3~4.)

Assuming those rebel fighters were functional.

X-wings able to take out an AT-AT (witk several run) only lead back to the question: Why they were not used against the AT-ATs?

The rebels weren't trying to win the fight. They were trying to get the hell out of Dodge.

[vakundok]

We saw two surviving AT-ATs and definitely two unused fighters and indicators for another 4~5. (The fact that previous escorts were fighter pairs +1, and the pilots +3~4.)

Assuming those rebel fighters were functional.

The two fighters flew away. Otherwise those pilots were just walking around and did not try to reach the transport.

X-wings able to take out an AT-AT (witk several run) only lead back to the question: Why they were not used against the AT-ATs?

The rebels weren't trying to win the fight. They were trying to get the hell out of Dodge.

Excuse me, but not trying to win a fight sounds stupid to me. They tried to at least slow down the attack to have enough time for a proper evacuation unlike that happened. The best (only) way to do this would be to win the fight against the first wave.

[Darth Servo]

The two fighters flew away. Otherwise those pilots were just walking around and did not try to reach the transport.

I thought you were talking about a scene showing two unused fighters in sitting around the hanger.

Excuse me, but not trying to win a fight sounds stupid to me. They tried to at least slow down the attack to have enough time for a proper evacuation unlike that happened. The best (only) way to do this would be to win the fight against the first wave.

By "win" I meant "defeat the imperial attack" dumbass. And you don't use kiloton level weapons when you have your own personnel exposed to the blast.

[Kerneth]

I'm afraid I can't remember where, but it is mentioned in the EU that Hoth took place shortly after the Battle of Derra IV where the Imperials destroyed a major Rebel supply convoy. General Derricote from the X-Wing series was one of the Imperial officers involved in that fight. As a result, the Hoth base was severely undersupplied. This was part of the reason that they had extreme difficulty modifying the speeders to work in the extreme cold and had to use tauntauns instead.

The Rebel Alliance always made a big deal about how their shielded, hyperdrive equipped starfighters gave their pilots a far better chance of survival than their Imperial counterparts. This is doubtless true, but think about it. The Rebel Alliance is a cash-starved organization having extreme difficulty acquiring basic supplies, that's using converted luxury liners in place of purpose-built warships. A shielded, hyperdrive-equipped X, B, A, or even Y-Wing is far more expensive to build and maintain than a TIE Fighter or Interceptor. Yet the Rebel Alliance used them almost exclusively throughout the Rebellion, to the best of my knowledge.

1) Starfighter pilot is the most dangerous job in the Rebel Alliance or the Empire. Losses among fighter pilots tended to be FAR higher than among ship's crew, with most pilots not surviving their first 5 missions. Shielded starfighters improved this loss rate for the Rebel Alliance, which is one reason they used them.
2) While it's cheaper to build TIE Interceptors than it is to build X-Wings, it's probably considerably MORE expensive to provide an armed, shielded transport for the TIE Interceptors. The Rebel Alliance had a severe shortage of capital ships and thus was reliant on the more expensive, hyperdrive-equipped starfighters.
3) As a simple matter of bulk, it's easier to smuggle a dozen X-Wings than several dozen TIE Interceptors. Much less several dozen TIE Interceptors and an armed transport for them!

Even up to X-Wing: Starfighters of Adumar, post Dark Empire I and the Jedi Search/Dark Apprentice/Champions of the Force trilogy, the New Republic was having a difficult time acquiring proton torpedo loadouts for its starfighter corp. That's the entire reason they were eager to get this backwards, culturally-barbaric planet into the New Republic--because it already had massive, easily-upgraded facilities capable of producing warheads.

At any rate, it's entirely likely that the starfighters on Hoth were few in number and thus needed for escort duty, or had a serious shortage of warheads, or, as someone else said, couldn't USE their warheads without frying their own infantry. Rebel troopers don't have the nice stormtrooper armor to protect them from radiation and chemical fallout from a proton torpedo detonation.

[vakundok]

Darth Servo: Maybe you missed the original question.

My questions about ESB:
-Why the rebells did not use X-wings against the walkers? Right after the start of the Falcon five pilots can be seen and at least one fighter in the air escorting the transport that was just taking off. It suggests that at least six fighters were unused during the battle. (Two of them confirmed: Luke's and the one that was mentioned.)
-Within the asteroid how did they (Solo and Leia) not freeze or explode from depressurization, since the worm was open to the space at this time?
-How was the Falcon able to "land" on a shielded ISD and how the crew did not notice that something as big as the Falcon went through the particle shields?
-The 17.28 was said as range or as location (when Veers destroyed the generator)?

EDIT: (The latter two had been answered.) Side question: The guns Boba fired very close to his "father" were on the level similar to the guns of the X-wings?

[vakundok]

The facts are:
-On Hoth there were unused fighters during the battle (canon).
-The starfighters can be used under the shield (official but does not contradict canon).
-The rebell starfighters had torpedo launchers and they were prepared (canon).
-Older type torpedoes worked under gravity and atmospheric conditions without problem (at least in short range) (canon).
-Older type starfighter worked well under gravity and atmospheric conditions (canon).
Question:
-Why they were not used?
Possible answers:
-The guns (in atmosphere) and torpedoes are not significantly stronger than the guns of the speeders and still too weak to take out an AT-AT.
-The guns (in atmosphere) are not significantly stronger that the guns of the speeders and still too weak to take out an AT-AT and the torpedoes are too powerfull (older type torpedo was not) or are on extremely short supply.

(I throw away that X-wings took out an AT-AT with gunfire because it creates a full circle and only leads back to the qustion. I could do it because the only official fact I stated was one of the newest (from AoTC:ICS if I remeber well) and newer official material wins against older one.)

Other possible answers?

[HemlockGrey]

I'm actually rather interested in how Leia and Han managed to go out onto the asteroid. Any theories?

[Sea Skimmer]

The facts are:
-On Hoth there were unused fighters during the battle (canon).
-The starfighters can be used under the shield (official but does not contradict canon).
-The rebell starfighters had torpedo launchers and they were prepared (canon).
-Older type torpedoes worked under gravity and atmospheric conditions without problem (at least in short range) (canon).
-Older type starfighter worked well under gravity and atmospheric conditions (canon).
Question:
-Why they were not used?
Possible answers:
-The guns (in atmosphere) and torpedoes are not significantly stronger than the guns of the speeders and still too weak to take out an AT-AT.
-The guns (in atmosphere) are not significantly stronger that the guns of the speeders and still too weak to take out an AT-AT and the torpedoes are too powerfull (older type torpedo was not) or are on extremely short supply.

(I throw away that X-wings took out an AT-AT with gunfire because it creates a full circle and only leads back to the qustion. I could do it because the only official fact I stated was one of the newest (from AoTC:ICS if I remeber well) and newer official material wins against older one.)

Other possible answers?

In flight icing prevents the X-wings from flying for any length of time in the atmosphere. We also know the Rebellion was very short of torpedos so its likely they didn't have any.

[Darth Servo]

-Why the rebells did not use X-wings against the walkers? Right after the start of the Falcon five pilots can be seen and at least one fighter in the air escorting the transport that was just taking off. It suggests that at least six fighters were unused during the battle. (Two of them confirmed: Luke's and the one that was mentioned.)

And didn't I answer this? You don't use kiloton range weapons when you have your own personnel exposed to the blast.

-Within the asteroid how did they (Solo and Leia) not freeze or explode from depressurization, since the worm was open to the space at this time?

The most reasonable explanation I can think of is the Falcon could set up a semi-protective field around the outside of the ship, but they still needed their breather masks.

The guns Boba fired very close to his "father" were on the level similar to the guns of the X-wings?

Not even close. X-wing guns pump out a minimum of GJ range energy according to the old ANH calcs. The guns fired on Kamino were simply anti-personnel weapons, not anti-fighter weapons like an X-wing has.

[Robert Treder]

Actually, the guns Boba used on Kamino had a maximum yield of 600 GJ/shot, according to the ICS. The answer to why they didn't mess everything up on the landing platform: power settings.

[Darth Servo]

Actually, the guns Boba used on Kamino had a maximum yield of 600 GJ/shot, according to the ICS. The answer to why they didn't mess everything up on the landing platform: power settings.

And the fact that Boba obviously didn't want to kill his "dad"

[Robert Treder]

Well yeah, that would be the reason behind the use of a lower power setting.

[Darth Servo]

Well yeah, that would be the reason behind the use of a lower power setting.

And a reason is essential if one is going to evoke the "low power setting" reasoning. How many times has someone pulled that excuse in various vs. debates when it made no sense to use a low power setting?