Who Really Invented The Death Star/ The Ultimate Weapon?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-03-05 03:11am

*chuckles*Also by Doku could have done it knowing that Obi9 wan would never believe him but would pass the info on.This sets the Jedi up to be destroyed.What greater reason to get rid of them than if they try to kill Palpatine AFTER he has beaten the Seperatists?

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-03-05 03:13am

Raith Sienar created the expeditionary battle planetoid, which used asteroids to fuel its main artillery weapon, which was essentially just an Ueberturblaser cannon. Following his falling out with Commander Tarkin in Rogue Planet, Sienar let Tarkin take the plans for the EBP, and wanted nothing to do with it. Tarkin then took the plan, and, once made Moff Tarkin, he created the Maw Installation. Here's where things get tricky.

Tol Sivron was the director of operations on the deep space mobile Imperial battle station (D.M.I.B.S.) project. Dr. Bevel Lemelisk, master designer, was the chief of the research crews, and the actual architect of the D.M.I.B.S. itself. One of his subordinates was Dr. Qwi Xux, who seems to have been instrumental in the design of the main artillery weapon, which is an improvement on the turbolaser to the extent that it can accelerate a planetary mass to escape velocy and beyond in less than a quarter of a second.

Others included in the design phase, who appear to have been external to Lemelisk's research crews in the Maw Installation, are Dr. Ohran Keldor, Dr. Rorax Falken and the staff of the Mrlssti academy (whose research enabled the Empire to build both the Death Stars and the worldcraft). Nasdra Magrody seems to have been a chief instructor to many of the researchers, but was not actually involved in the construction of the D.M.I.B.S.

Given the recent trend of backwards-continuity, it seems likely that Umak Leth, the more-than-slightly-twisted genius behind the Galaxy Gun, World Devastators, Shadow Droids, and the SD-10 war droids was also involved -- after all, the singularity drives which powered his Devastators were designed in the Maw Installation.

and

There's no contradiction between Attack of the Clones and the established continuity of the EU. Nothing seen in Episode II actually poses a problem.

As a matter of fact, the New Essential Guide to Characters says that Dr. Lemelisk was present on Geonosis at some point prior to the Battle of Geonosis, and that he worked with the Geonosians.

So here's my take on things:

After Sienar turned over the EBP designs to Commander Tarkin, Tarkin gave them to the Supreme Chancellor. Assuming that the Supreme Chancellor doubles as Darth Sidious (which is not really an assumption, as McCallum has come right out and said that they're one and the same), that clearly explains how Dooku acquired the plans.

Dooku provided the plans to the Geonosians, who, working with Lemelisk, upgraded the basic outline of the EBP into a larger and more powerful DMBS (deep-space mobile battle station). This basic outline was then "fleshed out" by Lemelisk's design team at the Maw Installation.

Plus, it's important to remember that no single person could possibly have designed something the size and complexity of the Death Star. Even an entire dedicated "think tank" like the Maw Installation couldn't have done it.

That's why it's wholly realistic -- actually, wholly necessary -- for people like Keldor (from Children of the Jedi), Falken, and the faculty at the Mrlssti Academy (from "The Phantom Affair") to have also participated in the design process, even if unwittingly at the time.

Think about it: The Manhatten Project required the concerted effort of hundreds -- if not thousands -- of people, not just the scientists working on designing the bomb mechanism itself. Nevertheless, Dr. Oppenheimer is usually credited for the Project's result -- for the simple reason that he was the head researcher.

Properly speaking, then, it isn't even necessary that Lemelisk have been the innovator of the design; he may well have been brought in years after the design was conceived. The fact is that he was the chief engineer and head researcher (which is odd; apparently he's successfully combined theoretical and applied sciences), and therefore receives credit for the project's success.

Anyway, according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, at some point Lemelisk was dismissed from his posts as "Chief Engineer to the Emperor" and "Master of Imperial Projects", to be replaced by Leth, a former member of the staff at the Maw Installation.

And, for the record, the Empire's lack of nonhuman uniformed personnel isn't really that big of a deal; the Rebel Alliance also had a pointed lack of nonhuman uniformed members until Return of the Jedi -- and then, the vast majority of the nonhuman uniformed personnel were of the same species. Amazingly, the explanation for the Empire's lack of species diversity is xenophobia, but the Alliance's lack of species diversity is logistical necessity.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 03:15am

Spanky The Dolphin

And it's stupid.

Well, thats your opinion and your entitled to it.

neoolong

He does, the EU stuff happens unless contradicted by film. If he went through to make sure everything fit, it wouldn't be his universe anymore. Besides, do you really think he'd go through all the trouble of making sure everything fit? That would mean for AOTC he would have had to go through a bunch of the books to see what color blood Yoda had.

I'm not saying he should and I know it happens unless contradicted or there could be an explanation, which in a few scenarios like Qwi Xux could have been given the Death Star plans and made it in the Maw, you just have to ignore the bits hwere Qwi Xux says she desinged the Death Star, which she sort of did to a certain extent, because there will always be problems with experimental technology and so she would have had to fix it and so on.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-03-05 03:16am

I'm sorry, Dorsk, but your simply, purely, absolutely WRONG.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 03:17am

Typhonis 1 wrote:*chuckles*Also by Doku could have done it knowing that Obi9 wan would never believe him but would pass the info on.This sets the Jedi up to be destroyed.What greater reason to get rid of them than if they try to kill Palpatine AFTER he has beaten the Seperatists?

But how did Dooku know that Obi-Wan would be rescued and pass the information on? "It may be difficult to secure your release." If Dooku wanted the Jedi Council to find out about Sidious, he could have just released Obi-Wan right then, eliminating the entire need for the big battle and giving the Kaminoans more time to finish more clones (the Grand Army would have passed the Senate anyway due to Jar-Jar.) The most logical conclusion is that Dooku wanted to convert Obi-Wan and use him as an ally against Sidious.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 03:22am

Eframepilot, I think me and someone else went over that at the begining.

Spanky The Dolphin, you can think I'm wrong, but I'm entitled to what I think happened and so are you.

Typhonis 1, thats a great point!

Well, I think that Publius has pretty much settled this little debate!

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-05 03:24am

Publius wrote:*snip*

Yes, have a cookie.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-03-05 03:25am

Opinions are one thing, Dorsk, but not when they're overridden by Official or Canon fact.

Besides, saying that the TF had an influence in the DS design because their war freighters have spherical command sections is just grasping at straws.

Ask yourself what the fuck the design of a conning tower of a warship has to do with the physical appearence of a moon-sized battlestation, and you'll see how stupid that is.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-05 03:29am

Excuse me, but the Trade Federation did not join to the separatist at the time of AoTC. They wanted Amidala's head before they would do it. They bought weapons that was all. The Techno Union joined hours (or maybe days) before the battle of Geonosis. So I think DS was a clear geonosian design (of course assistance (edit: from "official" persons) is possible) and I doubt that they (TF and TU representatives) even knew about the plans.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 03:33am

And I suppose that the Jedi Starfighters being the ame basic shape as the Star Destroyers is just clutching at straws? No because the Jedi Star Fighters were based on Star Destroyers.
Very few things are coincedence in the SW galaxy. IRL the Blockade ship were based on the Death Star, but if what Publius said is right then yes, the Geonosians probably did have a hand in the design of the Death Star.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 03:36am

Looking at what vakundok has just said it makes sense, I should have remembered that because I only watched AOTC a few days ago *smacks head* Ok! You were right Slappy!!!

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-03-05 03:40am

Dorsk 81 wrote:And I suppose that the Jedi Starfighters being the ame basic shape as the Star Destroyers is just clutching at straws? No because the Jedi Star Fighters were based on Star Destroyers.

It's because the wedge shape is a design trend of Kuat Drive Yards.

IRL, the shape of the JSF is probably a reference to the fact that in the early drafts for Star Wars, a Star Destroyer was a small two person starfighter.

Very few things are coincedence in the SW galaxy. IRL the Blockade ship were based on the Death Star...

I don't know what you're talking about.

IRL, the Trade Federation freighters were based on the shape of flying saucers, and were to be reminicent of Star Destroyers.

...but if what Publius said is right then yes, the Geonosians probably did have a hand in the design of the Death Star.

Of course.

EDIT: It's Spanky.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 03:45am

IRL I'm not sure if it was intentional but it felt a bit nostalgic, the Jedi Star Fighters look like the Star Destroyers scaled down and yes the Kuat ship yards were ment to be the reason, but what I mean with the blockade ships, the spherical design in the middle (I know I keep going on about it!) reminded me of the Death Star, whether it was intentional or not.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-05 05:12am

Dorsk 81 wrote:IRL I'm not sure if it was intentional but it felt a bit nostalgic, the Jedi Star Fighters look like the Star Destroyers scaled down and yes the Kuat ship yards were ment to be the reason, but what I mean with the blockade ships, the spherical design in the middle (I know I keep going on about it!) reminded me of the Death Star, whether it was intentional or not.

Do you mean resemblance between a globe (DS) and connected tubes (corvette)?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-03-05 05:32am

vakundok wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote:IRL I'm not sure if it was intentional but it felt a bit nostalgic, the Jedi Star Fighters look like the Star Destroyers scaled down and yes the Kuat ship yards were ment to be the reason, but what I mean with the blockade ships, the spherical design in the middle (I know I keep going on about it!) reminded me of the Death Star, whether it was intentional or not.
Do you mean resemblance between a globe (DS) and connected tubes (corvette)?

He means the TradeFed Battleships that participated in the Blockade of Naboo, not the Corellian Blockade Runners.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 06:19am

Robert Treder

vakundok wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote:
IRL I'm not sure if it was intentional but it felt a bit nostalgic, the Jedi Star Fighters look like the Star Destroyers scaled down and yes the Kuat ship yards were ment to be the reason, but what I mean with the blockade ships, the spherical design in the middle (I know I keep going on about it!) reminded me of the Death Star, whether it was intentional or not.

Do you mean resemblance between a globe (DS) and connected tubes (corvette)?

He means the TradeFed Battleships that participated in the Blockade of Naboo, not the Corellian Blockade Runners.

Thanks for cleraing that up Robert.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-05 07:30am

Thanks. I misunderstood.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-05 12:50pm

phongn wrote:Darth Sidious is Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, that much should be obvious.

The Jedi Council's forsight seems to have been lacking as of late; the Dark Side has grown in strength.

Palpatine also appears to be careful when he utilizes his powers, at no time does he use them when anywhere near the Jedi.

Also, consider this: perhaps they need to actually be looking for the dark side of the force in someone before they can detect it? Between TMP and AOTC, what reason did they have to suspect Palpatine? With Dooku's revelation to Obi-wan that a Sith was in control of the senate, perhaps this sparks an investigation by the Jedi which leads to Palpy exterminating them as "a threat to republic security"? I'm just speculating here.

Besides, the best bad guys in fiction are usually masters of disguise. Could a Sith lord as powerful as Sideous be able to make his force abilities transparent to the Jedi somehow?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-05 03:12pm

Official Fact: Several years after the debacle at Naboo, Seinar came up with a conceptual weapon known as the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid. Unlike the Death Star, it didn't have a concave superlaser dish nor was it perfectly spherical. It composed three spheres and a direct-core-powered immense turbolaser cannon. It’s range was limited and it did not have the concave composite weapon of the Death Star. He gave the design to one Commander Wilhuff Tarkin who hurried off to present the concept to Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, while taking credit of course.

Speculation: Darth Sidious investigates the resources and manpower needed for such a device's construction, and ponders its possible use. While it is unlikely it will be constructed for perhaps decades it is important to consider possibilities... Anyway, Sidious must continue his planning for the upcoming war....

Official-derived Speculation: A year or two preceeding the Clone Wars, Former Jedi Master and Count of Sorenno, Dooku, also known as Sith Lord Darth Tyranus, parlays with Archduke of Geonosis, Poggle the Lesser, who have already been contracted in the past to construct the Trade Federation's army. They are excellent manufacturers and competant engineers. While negotiating with Poggle in plans to secede from the Galactic Republic, Dooku introduces the brilliant young engineering genius, Bevel Lemilisk, and several of his assistant prodigies, specializing in sublight engine and hyperdrive design, to hypermatter physics and composite laser weaponry. The Count also gives the Archduke a gift of their alliance: the unrefined concept holograms and data for Raithe Sienar's Expeditionary Battle Planetoid. The Archduke's best engineers begin to work along side young Lemilisk and his assistants to see if it would be possible to produce a useful version of this device, and if so, begin designing it.

Canon Fact: The Geonosian hive engineers work feverishly on the refined design of the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid. Count Dooku assures Poggle that this weapon will hopefully be constructed for the soon-to-be Confederacy of Independent Systems and the contract will belong firstly to the Geonosians.

Official Fact: The Clone Wars' first battle cuts the engineering project short. However, Lemilisk and the Geonosian hive engineers has refined the concept into a bare sphere sporting a large concave composite laser weapon capable of devestating planets and deduced nearly all of the requirements and resources needed for its construction. Lemilisk at least manages to escape before the Clone Army siezed control of Geonosis.

Speculation: The refined Expeditionary Battle Planetoid has been designed to meet the specific strategic situation of the Confederacy. Lemilisk likely must redesign it once the greater time and financial and material resources, as well as the completely different strategic situation of the Galactic Empire appears over a decade later.

Canon Fact: Lord Tyranus downloads the project data and departs with it for Coruscant. He provides his Master with the fruits of Lemilisk and the Geonosian hive engineers' labor.

Speculation: The design sports specifications for troop complements and sublight drive as well as neccessary resources and facilities needed for its construction, but the specific physics and design of the massive composite laser weapon and the hyperdrive, as well as the hypermatter reactor needed to power such devices, remain incomplete. Lord Sidious again places the design in freeze, and begins the creation of a new order...

Canon Fact: Supreme Chancellor Palpatine is crowned Palpatine I, Emperor of the Galactic Empire. The New Order has begun.

Speculation: Emperor Palpatine uses data from the incomplete Expeditionary Battle Planetoid project to have the Eye of Palpatine and several other creations built including design features of the Loronar Torpedo Sphere.

Speculation: Palpatine, secure in his power, wishes to finally construct his weapon after many years.

Official Fact: Palpatine provides Grand Moff Tarkin with the incomplete project data, and instructs him to finish the design and produce a working prototype. He also provides him with the genius engineer, Lemilisk, to help complete the project he abandoned years before on Geonosis. Aboard the secret Maw Installation, Lemilisk and niave avian scientist and genius Qwi Xux complete the project with the help of fellow Maw Installation colleages. The product is the design a 160 km sphere containing perhaps billions of troops and thousands of fighters and turbolasers, while supporting the awesome planetary mass-scattering "Superlaser" composite weapon mounted in a massive concave dish on the spherical battle station. A 120 km stripped-down hyperdrive-less prototype sports a miniturized superlaser (incapable of scattering the mass of something as large as a Earth-size planet, but enough to scatter the mass of a smaller moon) that demonstrates the effectiveness of the design.

Canon-derived Speculation: The Geonosian hive engineers are returned to their subjugated home system after being forced to participate with their old colleague Lemilisk in completing their creation.

Official Fact: Construction under the auspices of Tarkin begins at the Imperial Penal Colony of Despayre, which is shut down and isolated from the rest of the Oversector. Wookie slaves and prisoners are used as labor where neccessary.

Canon-derived Speculation: It is possible that subjugated Geonosian hive workers and engineers are brought to help complete the battle station.

Official Fact: Engineer Lemilisk arrives at the site with Tarkin to oversee the final stage of construction...along with Lord Vader who "persuades" construction managers of speeding up their progress.

Offical Fact: The 160 km planet-destroying battle station known as the Death Star I is completed. The event, culminating 30 years since the original concept originated, is celebrated....by destroying Despayre.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-05 04:02pm

This line is logical and seems to be fine, but I have two side questions:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Canon Fact: The Geonosian hive engineers work feverishly on the refined design of the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid. Count Dooku assures Poggle that this weapon will hopefully be constructed for the soon-to-be Confederacy of Independent Systems and the contract will belong firstly to the Geonosians.

Wow!

Is it canon that they started from that thing?

Canon Fact: Lord Tyranus downloads the project data and departs with it for Coruscant. He provides his Master with the fruits of Lemilisk and the Geonosian hive engineers' labor.

Wow!

Is Lemelisk canon?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-03-05 04:29pm

My balls are roughly spherical too. I guess the Trade Federation had a hand in it.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-05 04:57pm

Howedar wrote:My balls are roughly spherical too. I guess the Trade Federation had a hand in it.

And since they're related to the deathstars, they ought to be quite lethal too, tell me, does it happenfrom time to time that you crack the toilet bowl when taking a leak?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-05 05:29pm

vakundok wrote: This line is logical and seems to be fine, but I have two side questions:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Canon Fact: The Geonosian hive engineers work feverishly on the refined design of the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid. Count Dooku assures Poggle that this weapon will hopefully be constructed for the soon-to-be Confederacy of Independent Systems and the contract will belong firstly to the Geonosians.
Wow! Is it canon that they started from that thing?

GL indicated the Geonosians had a hand in both the design and construction and it is obvious from both the movie and his commentary they were slated to make it during the Clone Wars but got cut off.

vakundok wrote:
Canon Fact: Lord Tyranus downloads the project data and departs with it for Coruscant. He provides his Master with the fruits of Lemilisk and the Geonosian hive engineers' labor.
Wow! Is Lemelisk canon?

Well for it to be a pure GL comments/movie canon statement, I'd have to say "fruits of the Geonosian hive engineer's labor" but since Lemilisk was there with them according to official I accidently left it in. It's the only official bit in that particular statement about canon fact.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-05 06:29pm

Well, I ment whether it was canon that the geonosians had started from the plans of the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-05 06:31pm

The hologram you see in AOTC IS the Expeditionary Battle Planetoid.

It's the refined version of Seinar's concept.

Death Star is likely a code-name made by the Empire not until the institution of the final project.