Why were SDs running with sheilds down in TESB?

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-03-09 07:12am

Having to lower all the shields to use hyperwaves just strikes me as fucking stupid

. They can open small holes in shields for weapon fire or fighter launch, yet not for hyperwave transmission

??? WTF

???

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-03-09 08:45am

The Nomad wrote:Having to lower all the shields to use hyperwaves just strikes me as fucking stupid . They can open small holes in shields for weapon fire or fighter launch, yet not for hyperwave transmission ??? WTF ???

And how are they supposed to receive the signal through the shield? The signal can come from any direction...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-03-09 11:11am

The Nomad wrote:Having to lower all the shields to use hyperwaves just strikes me as fucking stupid . They can open small holes in shields for weapon fire or fighter launch, yet not for hyperwave transmission ??? WTF ???

You would ony need to open the ones on the bridge, which is, and here's the funny thing, the only place we ever saw hit unshielded, further confirming it.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-10 06:35am

MadCat wrote:Also remember that the shield on Hoth was not a full planetary model.

It was designed to prevent direct bombardment of the rebel base, not to protect the entire planet.

The Imp's could have (and most likely did) set up a holo re-transmiter at the base camp were they dropped the walkers. This would have allowed them to send a holo signal around the shields.

Yes. But:
1. The theatre shield provided full coverage (like the gungan shield). (Otherwise the convoys wouldn't require the shield to be lowered to pass.)
2. The landing zone was outside the shield.
3. The Executor was outside, the AT-AT was inside the shield.
So, the holographic communication had to be happen through the theatre shield. And, if the holographic communication really needed the holonet or hyperwave transmission the AT-AT would need the equipment for it.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-03-10 10:41am

vakundok wrote:
MadCat wrote:Also remember that the shield on Hoth was not a full planetary model.

It was designed to prevent direct bombardment of the rebel base, not to protect the entire planet.

The Imp's could have (and most likely did) set up a holo re-transmiter at the base camp were they dropped the walkers. This would have allowed them to send a holo signal around the shields.
Yes. But:
1. The theatre shield provided full coverage (like the gungan shield). (Otherwise the convoys wouldn't require the shield to be lowered to pass.)
2. The landing zone was outside the shield.
3. The Executor was outside, the AT-AT was inside the shield.
So, the holographic communication had to be happen through the theatre shield. And, if the holographic communication really needed the holonet or hyperwave transmission the AT-AT would need the equipment for it.

1. Wrong, the convoys couldnt go below the shield perimeter because they would have been easy targets to Imperial ground forces, and frankly i doubt that the distance from the ground to the shield edge in the air was high enough for it to be safe for a big transport and its escorts to go thru there.
2. Thanks for helping me, if the shield provided full coverage then how did the Imperials go thru it? And before you start referring to TPM, prove that Gungan shields are not extremely special shields in SW.
3. Spell it with me, r-e-l-a-y s-t-a-t-i-o-n. Relay station left outside the shield perimeter to re-direct incoming signals from the fleet to the ground forces below the shield.Yes holonet requires hyperwave transmitter, you are assuming that an AT-AT doesnt have one.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-03-10 12:01pm

vakundok wrote:Yes. But:
1. The theatre shield provided full coverage (like the gungan shield). (Otherwise the convoys wouldn't require the shield to be lowered to pass.)

Prove it. For all we know it was an umbrella style shield, not a bubble. They could have had to drop it because flying too high would cause problems with the shield energy jumping and frying the ships, as is described in Wedge's Gamble and AOTC ICS. Hence why they used low flying airspeeders instead of X wings and they could not bring TIEs in.

2. The landing zone was outside the shield.
3. The Executor was outside, the AT-AT was inside the shield.
So, the holographic communication had to be happen through the theatre shield. And, if the holographic communication really needed the holonet or hyperwave transmission the AT-AT would need the equipment for it.

You have to prove part 1 or the rest is bullshit.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-10 02:12pm

You are right, I canot prove that it was a bulb- like shield. The gungan shield and the shield of the droidekas (it was also a bulb, not only a frontal umbrella) could be very special.
So far I thought that it was a bulb and this prevented the imperials from using repulsorcrafts in the attack. Where is it stated that it was an umbrella-like shield?
As a side note: In ANH it did not cause problem to pilots to fly at low attitude with starfighters and if I remember well it was lower than the height of an AT-AT. But this side note is unimportant if any official level (or above, of course) resource stated that it was an umbrella like shield.
EDIT:
1: Please prove that the TF got the specifications of the gungan theatre shield since OOM-9 knew that droids would be able to pass. (It launched the whole army, not only recons to see whether they could pass or not.)
2: Side question: Gunray used holocommunication to command the droids within the battleship. Did he use Holonet/hyperwave transmission as a shipboard- intercom system?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-10 07:46pm

The TESB novelization describes a steady rain of asteroids hitting the ISD's hull. This suggests that the shields were down, unless the shields are coincident with the hull surface or only apply a "soft" braking effect to the asteroids. There are other reasons to keep the shields down which may not have occurred to everyone:

The ship is very heavily armoured, and we saw asteroids exploding off its hull without doing any damage. Why use an active system if a passive one will get the job done?
The bridge deflector is separate from the main hull deflector. The hull deflector could have been down while the bridge deflector was up (except for brief outages when it was communicating).
The constant pounding on the shield generator might eventually damage it or loosen its supports. If the ships were in there for hours or days, they could withstand many thousands or tens of thousands of impacts. This kind of repeated shock loading could be quite seriously deleterious to the shield generator even if it does not overwhelm it, because of reaction forces.
Not all systems are designed to run continuously for days. It may simply be that an ISD's shields are simply not intended to run for a day with zero downtime, and had to be shut off for that reason.

Just pointing out that there are lots of possible explanations, once you think just a little bit outside of the box.

Tohonaca · Post by **Tohonaca** » 2003-03-10 08:21pm

who says the shields were down if the asteroid is big enough it can get through. Thats what happened to that one Star Destroyer that had the bridge obliterated.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-03-10 08:23pm

They went to the emergency command center.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-03-10 11:11pm

Tohonaca wrote:who says the shields were down if the asteroid is big enough it can get through. Thats what happened to that one Star Destroyer that had the bridge obliterated.

Wait, what exactly do you mean by 'big enough to get through'? I don't think I'm catching your drift.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-11 11:18am

Tohonaca wrote:who says the shields were down if the asteroid is big enough it can get through. Thats what happened to that one Star Destroyer that had the bridge obliterated.

There is no evidence that the bridge was "obliterated". Our view of the tower is completely obscured by asteroid debris. In fact, a frame or two after impact we can still see the far side of the bridge beyond the periphery of the debris field undamaged. Then at about frame 3, the bridge is completely blocked by debris and the scene changes before the debris clears.

noob! *poke*

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-03-11 11:20am

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:
Tohonaca wrote:who says the shields were down if the asteroid is big enough it can get through. Thats what happened to that one Star Destroyer that had the bridge obliterated.
Wait, what exactly do you mean by 'big enough to get through'? I don't think I'm catching your drift.

I think the noob is saying that the one asteroid in question in TESB was massive enough to take down the ISD's shields all by itself. Its stupid, I know.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-03-11 02:53pm

This from a n00b that think that ships in Star Wars travel at C.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-03-12 09:01am

My theory:

Only the novelization of the film supports the fact that the ISD's bridge was destroyed in the collision of the asteroid.

I rather think it wasn't destroyed at all.

We only see the approaching asteroid, it's impact on the ship/shield and a big debris cloud.
Then the camera switches to the Executor and we see the captain of the unlucky ship lifts his arms up. Then his holosignal is lost.

But there's no officer running up to report that "Lord Vader we've just lost a star destroyer!".

I think the loss of the holosignal is the result of the huge debris field that blocks the primary transmitters/receivers at the ISD's superstructure.

The captain's behaviour -lifting his arms to his head- is understandable.
It's a normal human behaviour to try to cover our head from an incoming object, even if it's futile...

But there's no 100% proof on the destruction of the superstructure.

Any thoughts?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-03-12 09:05am

Well, there still had to be damage from the asteroid, ranging from minor to taking out a significant portion of the tower (maybe to the point that the bridge was destroyed).

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-03-12 09:16am

I think the shields were up (why would somebody fly with a mile long battleship in an asteroid field with lowered shields?) and the majority of the were absorbed by the shield.
When it "burned out" the debris made minor damage on the surface hull.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-03-12 09:21am

Ah, so you didn't bother to read the rest of the thread.

This was already discussed, Fett. The shields were down to allow for holographic communication using hyperwave transmissions.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-03-12 09:29am

Yes I read it Spanky... (I know it's your "phobia" that I don't pay attention

and sometimes you're right, I admit it)

I rather think that only interstellar holo-communication needs to lower the shield.

(and this would explain the possibility of the communication between Veer's Blizzard 1 AT-AT and the Executor)

Edit:

(theory)
Maybe short range receivers/transmitters doesn't interfere with shields, this problem only occurs when someone using long range devices.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-03-12 01:27pm

AOTC:ICS specifically says hyperwave transmissions cannot pass thru deflector shields.Holonet relies on hyperwave's in order to function this is a very simple equation, in order for hyperwaves to be sent, shields cannot be on.
There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between close range and interstellar hyperwave transmissions other than the fact that interstellar ones require more power, but since this isnt an issue this whole pondering is irrelevant.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-12 02:24pm

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:AOTC:ICS specifically says hyperwave transmissions cannot pass thru deflector shields.Holonet relies on hyperwave's in order to function this is a very simple equation, in order for hyperwaves to be sent, shields cannot be on.
There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between close range and interstellar hyperwave transmissions other than the fact that interstellar ones require more power, but since this isnt an issue this whole pondering is irrelevant.

Noone doubted this. The question is, whether holographic communication can only happen through holonet.
1. We saw that holographic messages can be recorded and stored indicating that holographic messages are only data.
2. Normal communication (which is also a data exchange) can happen through shields.
3. We saw shipboard holographic communication. In my opinion it is unlikely that holonet was used in that occassion.
Back to topic:
It is hard to see the result of the explosion, but it seems the structure behind the tower remained intact, but the left dome disappeared. On the frame when the explosion began a black thing appeared. I think it was the hole in the hull. It can indicate that there was no shield interaction but we did not see the surface of the collision so it is unconfirmed. I think without confirmation it canot be decided whether the shield were down or overloaded.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-03-12 04:01pm

vakundok wrote:
Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:AOTC:ICS specifically says hyperwave transmissions cannot pass thru deflector shields.Holonet relies on hyperwave's in order to function this is a very simple equation, in order for hyperwaves to be sent, shields cannot be on.
There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between close range and interstellar hyperwave transmissions other than the fact that interstellar ones require more power, but since this isnt an issue this whole pondering is irrelevant.
Noone doubted this. The question is, whether holographic communication can only happen through holonet.
1. We saw that holographic messages can be recorded and stored indicating that holographic messages are only data.
2. Normal communication (which is also a data exchange) can happen through shields.
3. We saw shipboard holographic communication. In my opinion it is unlikely that holonet was used in that occassion.
Back to topic:
It is hard to see the result of the explosion, but it seems the structure behind the tower remained intact, but the left dome disappeared. On the frame when the explosion began a black thing appeared. I think it was the hole in the hull. It can indicate that there was no shield interaction but we did not see the surface of the collision so it is unconfirmed. I think without confirmation it canot be decided whether the shield were down or overloaded.

Uhm if hyperwaves are needed in order to send holographich transmissions to carry the data, then i do not see what is the point in this.

1.Where? And so what? Since hyperwaves are needed to carry the holographic signal for whatever reason, this is irrelevant.
2.Where? An example if you dont mind.
3.No shit sherlock if the signal is going thru the internal cables and such of the ship there would be no need for a carrier wave for the data stream.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-12 04:11pm

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:
vakundok wrote:
Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:AOTC:ICS specifically says hyperwave transmissions cannot pass thru deflector shields.Holonet relies on hyperwave's in order to function this is a very simple equation, in order for hyperwaves to be sent, shields cannot be on.
There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between close range and interstellar hyperwave transmissions other than the fact that interstellar ones require more power, but since this isnt an issue this whole pondering is irrelevant.
Noone doubted this. The question is, whether holographic communication can only happen through holonet.
1. We saw that holographic messages can be recorded and stored indicating that holographic messages are only data.
2. Normal communication (which is also a data exchange) can happen through shields.
3. We saw shipboard holographic communication. In my opinion it is unlikely that holonet was used in that occassion.
Back to topic:
It is hard to see the result of the explosion, but it seems the structure behind the tower remained intact, but the left dome disappeared. On the frame when the explosion began a black thing appeared. I think it was the hole in the hull. It can indicate that there was no shield interaction but we did not see the surface of the collision so it is unconfirmed. I think without confirmation it canot be decided whether the shield were down or overloaded.
Uhm if hyperwaves are needed in order to send holographich transmissions to carry the data, then i do not see what is the point in this.

1.Where? And so what? Since hyperwaves are needed to carry the holographic signal for whatever reason, this is irrelevant.
2.Where? An example if you dont mind.
3.No shit sherlock if the signal is going thru the internal cables and such of the ship there would be no need for a carrier wave for the data stream.

1: I remember a holographic message that Leia sent to Kenobi in ANH ...
2: Please?

Ackbar and Lando communicated, during the Battle of Endor, didn't they?
3: You wrote: "hyperwaves are needed" and later "thru the internal cables", the latter means that hyperwaves do not needed, just a possible channel for the data exchange.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-12 04:43pm

Darth Wong wrote:The TESB novelization describes a steady rain of asteroids hitting the ISD's hull. This suggests that the shields were down, unless the shields are coincident with the hull surface or only apply a "soft" braking effect to the asteroids. There are other reasons to keep the shields down which may not have occurred to everyone:
The ship is very heavily armoured, and we saw asteroids exploding off its hull without doing any damage. Why use an active system if a passive one will get the job done?

The bridge deflector is separate from the main hull deflector. The hull deflector could have been down while the bridge deflector was up (except for brief outages when it was communicating).

The constant pounding on the shield generator might eventually damage it or loosen its supports. If the ships were in there for hours or days, they could withstand many thousands or tens of thousands of impacts. This kind of repeated shock loading could be quite seriously deleterious to the shield generator even if it does not overwhelm it, because of reaction forces.

Not all systems are designed to run continuously for days. It may simply be that an ISD's shields are simply not intended to run for a day with zero downtime, and had to be shut off for that reason.
Just pointing out that there are lots of possible explanations, once you think just a little bit outside of the box.

Hmm, I am inclined to believe 1 & 2, 4 is also quite possible, I am not sure about three though, given that shields on a smaller vessel(Republic SD) where able to withstand sustained volleys from a planetary railgun, the shield generators melted before the supports gave out.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-03-12 04:45pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Well, there still had to be damage from the asteroid, ranging from minor to taking out a significant portion of the tower (maybe to the point that the bridge was destroyed).

No there hasn't, all that can be safely deducted is that the comm system was fritzed out to an unknown degree by the impact, for all we know there does not have to have been more damage than a broken wire from the shock of the impact somewhere or just asteroid fragments distorting the signal.

And the impact of the asteroid on the tower is consistent with that of an asteroid being pulverized on the surface, i.e. not really penetrating the surface.