Star Wars: KotOR

[Havok]

KOTOR Jedi are not sexless monks.

In fact, even in the movies, there is no indication that Jedi don't have sex.

Not having attachment does not equal not enjoying things.

[Metahive]

I'm right now trying to wrap my head around the image of a Jedi perusing the services of a prostitute. Just how chaste or frivolous is the SW universe anyway?

[Havok]

I'm right now trying to wrap my head around the image of a Jedi perusing the services of a prostitute. Just how chaste or frivolous is the SW universe anyway?

Dude. Not having romantic attachments does not equal PROSTITUTE. I mean, you do realize that you can have sex with a girl and not want to marry her, or even care about her in that way right?

It also does not mean they can not have relationships. Or even emotional relationships. They just have to be able to put the life/mission of a Jedi above all else. Seriously, do you watch the movies and think that Yoda, or Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon don't care about specific people in very specific ways?

[Stark]

It's a pretty sheltered attitude to think that the Jedi rules preventing marriage also prevent any kind of relationship; Jedi are shown to have buddies, contacts, associates, sources, etc.

[Havok]

There are also MARRIED Jedi. They even say it in one of the visual dictionaries for the PT.

Basically, they told the maladjusted kid he can't get married and had all the other Jedi lie to him about the rule.

[Stark]

Maybe it was an insurance thing; they broke their policy letting him in, so they'd be open to serious lawsuits if he ever, I dunno, flew off the rails and took over the galaxy.

[Metahive]

Dude. Not having romantic attachments does not equal PROSTITUTE. I mean, you do realize that you can have sex with a girl and not want to marry her, or even care about her in that way right?

Yes, I realize that, but at the same time I don't consider this to be a decent thing to do and can't imagine the Jedi doing so either.

It also does not mean they can not have relationships. Or even emotional relationships. They just have to be able to put the life/mission of a Jedi above all else. Seriously, do you watch the movies and think that Yoda, or Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon don't care about specific people in very specific ways?

Anakin's attachment to Padme leads to him betraying the Republic. Obi Wan's attachment to Anakin leads to Obi Wan letting Anakin survive at Mustafar. Obi Wan's attachment to Qui Gon leads to him ignoring the warnings of the council WRT to Anakin. The attachment of the Jedi to their troops leads to them not seeing their betrayal coming. Luke's attachment to his friends leads to him losing a hand and getting psychologically traumatized.

Pretty much every single time Jedi become attached personally even if it's just professional or merely friendship it's biting them in the ass eventually. There's only one exception and that's Vader's attachment to his son and vice-versa. Even Palpatine could be said to stumble about this by not seeing Vader's backstabbing coming although that's presumably the Sith way. I watch the movies and get the message that force-users should stay the hell away from personal relationships.

[Havok]

Dude. Not having romantic attachments does not equal PROSTITUTE. I mean, you do realize that you can have sex with a girl and not want to marry her, or even care about her in that way right?

Yes, I realize that, but at the same time I don't consider this to be a decent thing to do and can't imagine the Jedi doing so either.

Why? The Jedi are made up of thousands of different species with thousands of different biologies, cultures and ways of viewing sex. The fact that you can't fathom that someone might view something differently than you, just shows how closed minded and idiotic you are.

It also does not mean they can not have relationships. Or even emotional relationships. They just have to be able to put the life/mission of a Jedi above all else. Seriously, do you watch the movies and think that Yoda, or Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon don't care about specific people in very specific ways?

Anakin's attachment to Padme leads to him betraying the Republic.

Because he kept it a secret.

Obi Wan's attachment to Anakin leads to Obi Wan letting Anakin survive at Mustafar.

Obi-Wan thought Anakin was as good as dead. Having mercy on someone you fought side by side with for over a decade isn't exactly a fault.

Obi Wan's attachment to Qui Gon leads to him ignoring the warnings of the council WRT to Anakin.

The Council had changed their minds, voting down Yoda on the matter. Obi-Wan was prepared to be defiant, but he didn't have to be. Qui-Gon was also proved correct in pretty much everything.

The attachment of the Jedi to their troops leads to them not seeing their betrayal coming.

Bullshit. There was no betrayal to sense, as there was none there until they received Order 66.

Luke's attachment to his friends leads to him losing a hand and getting psychologically traumatized.

It also served as the template for the evolved Jedi that would not have been destroyed by Palpatine.

Pretty much every single time Jedi become attached personally even if it's just professional or merely friendship it's biting them in the ass eventually. There's only one exception and that's Vader's attachment to his son and vice-versa. Even Palpatine could be said to stumble about this by not seeing Vader's backstabbing coming although that's presumably the Sith way. I watch the movies and get the message that force-users should stay the hell away from personal relationships.

Except it is the personal relationship that saves Luke. The personal relationship that destroys the Sith. The personal relationship that allows the Jedi to survive.

[Metahive]

Why? The Jedi are made up of thousands of different species with thousands of different biologies, cultures and ways of viewing sex. The fact that you can't fathom that someone might view something differently than you, just shows how closed minded and idiotic you are.

While individual Jedi come from a wide variety of species and cultures, the Jedi themselves have their own rules and culture which those individuals have to adhere to once they join up. So how does your appeal to multiculturalism matter? The Jedi don't practise it, it's a Red Herring. Or are there any Gungan/Wookie Jedi that are allowed to have those incredibly intimate life debts for example?

Because he kept it a secret.

Yeah, so?

Obi-Wan thought Anakin was as good as dead. Having mercy on someone you fought side by side with for over a decade isn't exactly a fault.

How does that matter? He couldn't bring himself to give Anakin the coup de grace and who knows how many people paid for it in the 20+ years Vader was Palpatine's main enforcer. Also, what would have been merciful here? Letting your former best friend slowly die from severe burns in agony or quickly decapitating him?

The Council had changed their minds, voting down Yoda on the matter. Obi-Wan was prepared to be defiant, but he didn't have to be. Qui-Gon was also proved correct in pretty much everything.

Correct as in bringing about the death of almost all Jedi and two decades of abject Sith oppression? Sorry, but that's a rather high price just to be proven "correct". And the Sith survived anyway. Heck, Palpatine wasn't even really dead and only became stronger until another Jedi sacrificed his life to keep him bound in the afterlife.

Bullshit. There was no betrayal to sense, as there was none there until they received Order 66.

In what world do you live where troops backstabbing their former compatriots who are repeatedly shown to care greatly for their well-being is not one of the worst forms of betrayal?

It also served as the template for the evolved Jedi that would not have been destroyed by Palpatine.

Explain that.

Except it is the personal relationship that saves Luke. The personal relationship that destroys the Sith. The personal relationship that allows the Jedi to survive.

It's Anakin's personal personal relationship that creates the need for a savior in the first place. The Sith are not destroyed, just stymied for a few years and eventually come back in force and the Jedi would have survived had not the aforementioned personal relationship taken place. I see that as a net-negative as far as personal relationships by force-users go.

[Darth Tedious]

WRT to the betrayl of Order 66, one of the reasons the Clone army were perfect for the job was that the Clones really were just followinbg orders. There was no emotional attachment or personal motivation on their part, so there really was no betrayl for the Jedi to sense.
This fact is pointed out quite clearly in the EU (BFII), but even Hav was aware of it, so it must have been obvious enough in the films...

[Metahive]

That's not the point however, the point is that the Jedi harbored an amicable relationship that came to bite them in the ass. Being more reserved and distant, less thrusting of their troops would have saved them much misery, especially with the knowledge that some of Dooku's flunkies delivered the template.

EDIT:
I'm also not so ready to let them off the hook for the massacre of the Jedi. They were bred to be less independent than their template, but as far as self-awareness goes they were still leaps and bounds above battledroids. They did have the ability to reflect upon their actions and so I do not consider them innocent in their assistance in mass-murder.

[Darth Tedious]

That's not the point however, the point is that the Jedi harbored an amicable relationship that came to bite them in the ass. Being more reserved and distant, less thrusting of their troops would have saved them much misery, especially with the knowledge that some of Dooku's flunkies delivered the template.

Point understood. They certainly had no way of seeing it coming from the Clones, but I would agree that they should have been more suspicious.

[StarSword]

It also does not mean they can not have relationships. Or even emotional relationships. They just have to be able to put the life/mission of a Jedi above all else. Seriously, do you watch the movies and think that Yoda, or Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon don't care about specific people in very specific ways?

Anakin's attachment to Padme leads to him betraying the Republic. Obi Wan's attachment to Anakin leads to Obi Wan letting Anakin survive at Mustafar. Obi Wan's attachment to Qui Gon leads to him ignoring the warnings of the council WRT to Anakin. The attachment of the Jedi to their troops leads to them not seeing their betrayal coming. Luke's attachment to his friends leads to him losing a hand and getting psychologically traumatized.

Pretty much every single time Jedi become attached personally even if it's just professional or merely friendship it's biting them in the ass eventually. There's only one exception and that's Vader's attachment to his son and vice-versa. Even Palpatine could be said to stumble about this by not seeing Vader's backstabbing coming although that's presumably the Sith way. I watch the movies and get the message that force-users should stay the hell away from personal relationships.

Leaving the clone troopers aside for the moment, Jedi of earlier eras, even as late as the Exar Kun war, seemed to have no problem with having close friends or falling in love. Andur and Nomi Sunrider were married with a daughter. After Andur was killed in action, Nomi eventually fell in love with one of the Qel-Droma brothers. (I read on Wookieepedia that the higher-ups thought it was a good match, but I don't remember what they cited for that.)
Spoiler

Only about 60 years later or so, Bastila Shan falls to the dark side during the course of the KOTOR story, and male light side players can use the optional romance to turn her back to the light side. Also, Bastila's reluctance to get serious with Revan seems to be more due to not wanting to distract from the quest to find the Star Forge than any Jedi rule against love.

And let's not forget: Jolee Bindo tried to train his wife while he himself was still a Padawan, much as Obi-wan had barely been knighted before he took on Anakin.

Closer to the PT, times changed for some reason and the Jedi were now not supposed to fall in love (possibly due to an overly strict interpretation of the Jedi Code). And yet it still happens. Jedi Trial reveals that Anakin is not the only Jedi who is secretly married: Jedi Master Nejaa Halcyon has a wife and teenage son on Corellia, whom he keeps secret from the Jedi Council. (The son, incidentally, was Valin Halcyon, who changed his name to Hal Horn after Order 66 and joined the Corellian Security Force. He was Corran Horn's father.)

There's also Jedi who openly flout the no-relationships rule with no ill effect, among them Callista Ming and her compatriots (Triple Zero or Order 66; I forget which). And Thracia Cho Leem has apparently had children (Rogue Planet).

And let's not forget the NJO, which has no problem with personal relationships. Luke marrying Mara Jade doesn't cause problems; neither does Leia marrying Han, or Kam Solusar marrying Tionne. (Just off the top of my head.) The only NJO Jedi who went haywire over love was Jacen Solo, and again we have Palpatine-esque Sith influence partly to blame.

So it would seem to me that such relationships are only bad for Force users if they try to "live a lie" as Padme and Anakin did. And sometimes not even then, as in the case of Nejaa Halcyon.

Oh, and familial relationships prove helpful, too: Luke falls under Palpatine's influence during the Dark Empire saga, and Leia turns him back.

Basically, I'm with Havok on this one: solid, committed relationships seem to be good for Force-users, not bad.

[Metahive]

Basically, I'm with Havok on this one: solid, committed relationships seem to be good for Force-users, not bad.

Padme and Anakin had a solid, commited relationship. It wasn't that he had to keep it secret that made him go over the edge, it was that he was so committed to it . It sent the whole galaxy into a downward spiral from which it as of now never fully recovered. The NJO might allow for romantic relationships, but they're only a mere shadow of what the old Jedi Order once achieved and consistently ravaged by any new crisis that plagues the galaxy.

The flaw of the old Jedi order wasn't that they disallowed attachment, it was that they weren't enforcing that rule firmly enough.

Therefore I stick with my opinion, personal relationships by force-users had an overall net-negative effect on the galaxy since many of the problems that are fixed by committed relationships have also been introduced by them and that one in particular shoved the whole galaxy into a persistent dark age.

[Broken]

It's Anakin's personal personal relationship that creates the need for a savior in the first place. The Sith are not destroyed, just stymied for a few years and eventually come back in force and the Jedi would have survived had not the aforementioned personal relationship taken place. I see that as a net-negative as far as personal relationships by force-users go.

The Banite Sith Order is destroyed by Anakin killing Palpatine. To my knowledge, this is the only Sith Order dangerous enough to warrant the Force itself intervening directly via the creation of Anakin Skywalker to combat it. Every other Sith Order and Sith Empire is opposed, fought and thrown down via the Jedi, the Republic and their allies. Not Exar Kun, Darth Revan, the Brotherhood of Darkness or any other group of Dark Side Force-users required such a step. So far as I know, the Force has only acted outside its agents in regards to the birth of Anakin Skywalker and his role/destiny in throwing down the Banite Sith Order. Every Sith group after Palpatine is but a pale shadow of the danger that the later Banite Sith Order, as personified by Darth Sidious, posed.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Anakin wasn't the most emotionally stable of individuals, with or without Padme around. He was always brash and poor at controlling his emotions. It wasn't that he loved Padme, it was what he was willing to do to save her from the death he dreamed about her having. Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to execute Anakin. It was like up and executing a sibling for him. It was nothing to do with the Force and everything to do with a decision made without knowledge of future consequences. There was zero reason for him to think that Palpatine would come along in time to save Anakin's sorry ass.

Now, if the Order had had some proper counselors handy and they hadn't had the "no attachment" policy Anakin may have had someone to take his problems to. Someone with a solution better than "Learn to let go." Hell, his emotional problems could well have been less severe, to the point that he wouldn't get so desperate that he'd ally with a fucking Sith Lord.

[Havok]

Basically, I'm with Havok on this one: solid, committed relationships seem to be good for Force-users, not bad.

Padme and Anakin had a solid, commited relationship. It wasn't that he had to keep it secret that made him go over the edge, it was that he was so committed to it . It sent the whole galaxy into a downward spiral from which it as of now never fully recovered. The NJO might allow for romantic relationships, but they're only a mere shadow of what the old Jedi Order once achieved and consistently ravaged by any new crisis that plagues the galaxy.

The flaw of the old Jedi order wasn't that they disallowed attachment, it was that they weren't enforcing that rule firmly enough.

Therefore I stick with my opinion, personal relationships by force-users had an overall net-negative effect on the galaxy since many of the problems that are fixed by committed relationships have also been introduced by them and that one in particular shoved the whole galaxy into a persistent dark age.

Uh, fucking no.

Take Anakin and Padme out of the equation, and you still have Order 66, have probably a dead Obi-Wan, still have Dooku, Maul and Palpatine's other lackeys. Still have a galaxy wide conflict orchestrated by one man.

All Anakin provided was a means to deal with Mace, and if you accept that, then you have to accept that Palpatine did indeed lose the battle in his office.

Anakin had NOTHING to do with the state the galaxy ended up in. His becoming Darth Vader only allowed for Palpatine to have a proper apprentice to take over.

In fact, Anakin provided the Jedi pretty much the ONLY information they had on the Sith and Palpatine's actions. Without Anakin, the Jedi are 100% blind.

Try actually paying attention to the movies.

[Havok]

That's not the point however, the point is that the Jedi harbored an amicable relationship that came to bite them in the ass. Being more reserved and distant, less thrusting of their troops would have saved them much misery, especially with the knowledge that some of Dooku's flunkies delivered the template.

Point understood. They certainly had no way of seeing it coming from the Clones, but I would agree that they should have been more suspicious.

They were fucking suspicious. What the hell were they supposed to do about it? They had to fight the war. They had to lead. The needed to be on the battlefield. Even Jedi like Yoda that would chill in the rear, were still surrounded by clones.

[Havok]

Why? The Jedi are made up of thousands of different species with thousands of different biologies, cultures and ways of viewing sex. The fact that you can't fathom that someone might view something differently than you, just shows how closed minded and idiotic you are.

While individual Jedi come from a wide variety of species and cultures, the Jedi themselves have their own rules and culture which those individuals have to adhere to once they join up. So how does your appeal to multiculturalism matter? The Jedi don't practise it, it's a Red Herring. Or are there any Gungan/Wookie Jedi that are allowed to have those incredibly intimate life debts for example?

You are an IDIOT.
Count Dooku was directly connected with his world as a Jedi, as his TITLE indicated.
Ki-Adi Mundi had like 6 kids and a few wives because his culture demanded it.

It's not a Red Hering. Jedi of all walks held ties with their worlds and cultures. I mean, explain why so many Jedi has some sort of individualized garments based on their homeworld's culture.

ESPECIALLY if you take the EU into account. My gawd, like every Corellian Jedi was married because they are so cool and rebellious.

Because he kept it a secret.

Yeah, so?

Yeah so? Dude. The whole basis for tension with Anakin was the fact that he was constantly being dishonest, or asked to be dishonest by the people he trusted and because he was worried about being kicked out of the Order and not being able to protect Amidala.

Obi-Wan thought Anakin was as good as dead. Having mercy on someone you fought side by side with for over a decade isn't exactly a fault.

How does that matter? He couldn't bring himself to give Anakin the coup de grace and who knows how many people paid for it in the 20+ years Vader was Palpatine's main enforcer. Also, what would have been merciful here? Letting your former best friend slowly die from severe burns in agony or quickly decapitating him?

So you are saying that Obi-Wan didn't have mercy and left Anakin to die in a horrible and gruesome manner. I guess you just disproved your own original point. Good going.

The Council had changed their minds, voting down Yoda on the matter. Obi-Wan was prepared to be defiant, but he didn't have to be. Qui-Gon was also proved correct in pretty much everything.

Correct as in bringing about the death of almost all Jedi and two decades of abject Sith oppression? Sorry, but that's a rather high price just to be proven "correct". And the Sith survived anyway. Heck, Palpatine wasn't even really dead and only became stronger until another Jedi sacrificed his life to keep him bound in the afterlife.

EU GARBAGE. The Sith were destroyed, by the Chosen One. End of story.

Qui-Gon was correct in how he viewed the Force and had the rest of the Jedi been able to follow his lead, instead of being arrogant asses, they would have been far more prepared for what the Sith did and may have even been able to stop it.

Bullshit. There was no betrayal to sense, as there was none there until they received Order 66.

In what world do you live where troops backstabbing their former compatriots who are repeatedly shown to care greatly for their well-being is not one of the worst forms of betrayal?

In the world where troops are given a lawful order, by their lawful commander in chief, that stipulates the Jedi have attempted to overthrow the government of the Republic and are now enemies of the the Republic. Oh wait, that is what fucking happened.

It also served as the template for the evolved Jedi that would not have been destroyed by Palpatine.

Explain that.

The garbage EU got one thing correct, in having a new Jedi Order that is actually capable of adapting to new threats and new types of war, even if they did it on accident. The New Jedi Order, would not have been so easily destroyed by Palpatine, as the Republic Jedi had been.

Except it is the personal relationship that saves Luke. The personal relationship that destroys the Sith. The personal relationship that allows the Jedi to survive.

It's Anakin's personal personal relationship that creates the need for a savior in the first place. The Sith are not destroyed, just stymied for a few years and eventually come back in force and the Jedi would have survived had not the aforementioned personal relationship taken place. I see that as a net-negative as far as personal relationships by force-users go.

Again, bullshit. You take Anakin and his personal relationships out of the events, and you still have a decimated Jedi Order, a conquered galaxy and the Galactic Empire. You also never have anyone that can confront Palpatine.

[Havok]

Anakin wasn't the most emotionally stable of individuals, with or without Padme around. He was always brash and poor at controlling his emotions. It wasn't that he loved Padme, it was what he was willing to do to save her from the death he dreamed about her having. Obi-Wan couldn't bring himself to execute Anakin. It was like up and executing a sibling for him. It was nothing to do with the Force and everything to do with a decision made without knowledge of future consequences. There was zero reason for him to think that Palpatine would come along in time to save Anakin's sorry ass.

Now, if the Order had had some proper counselors handy and they hadn't had the "no attachment" policy Anakin may have had someone to take his problems to. Someone with a solution better than "Learn to let go." Hell, his emotional problems could well have been less severe, to the point that he wouldn't get so desperate that he'd ally with a fucking Sith Lord.

I have to dispute some of this.

I have always maintained that Anakin was a very emotionally stable individual. You don't go from what he was in TPM, a smart, inventive, caring, brave kid to a murdering psycho without some outside influence and help.

The Jedi and especially Palpatine manipulated the shit out of Anakin and were constantly pulling him in the wrong directions. The Jedi due to their arrogance and inflexibility and Palpatine because that's exactly what he wanted.

Allow Anakin to act on his visions and nightmares and check on his mom, save her, and he doesn't harbor the guilt and resentment from her death and the following death of the Tusken tribe, towards himself and the Jedi and then he doesn't freak out about his visions about Padme, if he even has them, because he knows that he CAN save her and her death is not a foregone conclusion.

Anakin knew right from wrong. Yet, he was constantly forced to act in the opposite way from what he wanted by others and his trust he placed in them. That is what fucked Anakin up the most.

[Havok]

but even Hav was aware of it, so it must have been obvious enough in the films...

Just saw this.

[StarSword]

Why? The Jedi are made up of thousands of different species with thousands of different biologies, cultures and ways of viewing sex. The fact that you can't fathom that someone might view something differently than you, just shows how closed minded and idiotic you are.

While individual Jedi come from a wide variety of species and cultures, the Jedi themselves have their own rules and culture which those individuals have to adhere to once they join up. So how does your appeal to multiculturalism matter? The Jedi don't practise it, it's a Red Herring. Or are there any Gungan/Wookie Jedi that are allowed to have those incredibly intimate life debts for example?

You are an IDIOT.
Count Dooku was directly connected with his world as a Jedi, as his TITLE indicated.
Ki-Adi Mundi had like 6 kids and a few wives because his culture demanded it.

It's not a Red Hering. Jedi of all walks held ties with their worlds and cultures. I mean, explain why so many Jedi has some sort of individualized garments based on their homeworld's culture.

ESPECIALLY if you take the EU into account. My gawd, like every Corellian Jedi was married because they are so cool and rebellious.

Got another one. Adi Gallia's family were Republic bureaucrats on Coruscant. (SW2VD)

[Ritterin Sophia]

Count Dooku was directly connected with his world as a Jedi, as his TITLE indicated.

Except he wasn't. Dooku, whilst a Count of Serrano by birthright, did not claim the title of such until after he left the Jedi Order following the Battle of Galidraan.

[Havok]

Count Dooku was directly connected with his world as a Jedi, as his TITLE indicated.

Except he wasn't. Dooku, whilst a Count of Serrano by birthright, did not claim the title of such until after he left the Jedi Order following the Battle of Galidraan.

The fact that he was allowed to claim it, shows that there was a connection that was maintained throughout his time as a Jedi. No one just turns over the amount of money and power he received to someone they have never met or known.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The fact that he was allowed to claim it, shows that there was a connection that was maintained throughout his time as a Jedi. No one just turns over the amount of money and power he received to someone they have never met or known.

We are talking about a title of nobility. People do just turn over that amount of money and power to someone they've never met when those are involved.