Is the Force an emotion parasite?

[RogueIce]

Most people are not Force sensitives. It wouldn't matter much if the power of the Force is dulled in one area by the Ysalmari because it wouldn't affect them.

You said, "And the worse thing is, all lifeforms in Star Wars has been made to become dependent on the Force for survival, and if the Force is removed, EVERYONE AND EVERY LIVING CREATURE IN THE STAR WARS GALAXY DIES."

This is obviously not true because the ysalmari prevent the Force from basically existing or having any effect (such as the "clone buzzing") in their vicinity, yet people on Myrkr are obviously not dying.

The Sith and the Jedi on the other hand...

May be initially thrown, in the same way that someone who has always had sight will find it difficult if rendered suddenly blind. And as Luke was able to demonstrate, after they adjust they can still function without the Force and have no long-term side effects. Now, as indicated in I, Jedi someone like Yoda, who has lived for centuries with the Force may take longer to adjust than, say, a Padawan. But they can still adjust.

Also from the same novel, and to just provide additional info as to how much the ysalmari block the Force, Luke and Corran were able to sneak in past the Jensari who were not warned at all by their 'danger sense' or precog, if you will. So they were indeed quite out of the Force, and not just having their abilities supressed or whatever.

[Simon_Jester]

IndrickBoreale93, let's put it another way. Look at the Republic in the prequel era. What made it fall apart?

The child's answer is "Palpatine!"

The grown up answer is "Palpatine helped a lot, but he was exploiting existing forces that were already in place."

There's plenty of evidence of powerful corporate interests (Trade Federation, plus all the other guys referenced in Episode II) which are largely independent of the Republic. The Republic has little or no power on a remote planet like Tatooine, to the point where Republic currency isn't accepted and official representatives of the Republic (Jedi knights) have to resort to barter to get the things they need. Slavery is rife on the outer rim, as are Hutt crime rings and so on.

So don't ask "why did the Republic fall apart?" Ask "what held it together all those years?" Why didn't the outer rim secede years ago, why didn't the dithering Republic government collapse under its own weight?

Answer, from the mouth of a man who really ought to know: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

Look at Episode I. Left to their own devices, the Trade Federation leaders practically foul themselves in terror at the prospect of having to deal with Jedi. Jedi are routinely sent in small numbers to deal with crises that might cause entire worlds to revolt against the Republic, or to settle small interstellar wars. And they succeed.

If that's the Light Side's way of governing the galaxy and skimming off our emotional energy, I'm all for it, even if you feel like stealing names for it from TVTropes ("eldritch abomination-" Pfah!).

[SpaceMarine93]

IndrickBoreale93, let's put it another way. Look at the Republic in the prequel era. What made it fall apart?

The child's answer is "Palpatine!"

The grown up answer is "Palpatine helped a lot, but he was exploiting existing forces that were already in place."

There's plenty of evidence of powerful corporate interests (Trade Federation, plus all the other guys referenced in Episode II) which are largely independent of the Republic. The Republic has little or no power on a remote planet like Tatooine, to the point where Republic currency isn't accepted and official representatives of the Republic (Jedi knights) have to resort to barter to get the things they need. Slavery is rife on the outer rim, as are Hutt crime rings and so on.

So don't ask "why did the Republic fall apart?" Ask "what held it together all those years?" Why didn't the outer rim secede years ago, why didn't the dithering Republic government collapse under its own weight?

Answer, from the mouth of a man who really ought to know: "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."

Look at Episode I. Left to their own devices, the Trade Federation leaders practically foul themselves in terror at the prospect of having to deal with Jedi. Jedi are routinely sent in small numbers to deal with crises that might cause entire worlds to revolt against the Republic, or to settle small interstellar wars. And they succeed.

If that's the Light Side's way of governing the galaxy and skimming off our emotional energy, I'm all for it, even if you feel like stealing names for it from TVTropes ("eldritch abomination-" Pfah!).

A valid point.

But if Sith Force-Sensitives like Palpatine had not been around to exploit the flaws of the declining Republic, would an evil Galactic Empire rise to create untold misery and oppression for nearly everyone and causes a brutal, bloody civil war that torn the galaxy apart for two decades and several billions of lives?

And if Jedi Force-Sensitives weren't around to bail out the Republic every time it is in trouble, many of which caused by their own corruption, bureaucracy and other problems, sustaining a cumbersome and terrible government system longer then it should had, do you think that the Republic would still not have the chance to realize the need to reform and re-organize much, much earlier in the face of increasing resentment and discontent, thus preventing the chaos like the Trade Federation one from happening in the first place? Or perhaps fall apart with less damage then if Palpatine is around to exploit and influence it and allow the rise of a better governing system, instead of a oppressive monarchist military state?

As for 'Eldritch Abomination' I really could not find a better term to describe the nature of The Force, even not in the way as I had suggested in my theory:

- It is sentient in its own incomprehensible way.

- It is unimaginably powerful beyond sentient beings' comprehension.

- It is still not well understood properly as what it actually is (tens of thousands of years using it and they haven't come up with anything better then the fact it is an energy field that binds all life in the galaxy together. I mean come on, where did it come from in the first place?).

- It bestows portions of its power to be used by Force sensitive almost like a Chaos god from WH40K

- Some user of its powers became incidentally corrupted by the powers and turn to madness, evil, or worse, like those cultists in Cosmic Horror stories (If you don't believe me take a look at Darth Sidious and Darth Nihilus).

- It is probably indifferent to the struggles and strife of sentient beings in Star Wars, let alone morality, all the endless conflict and destruction caused by Force-sensitives over thousands of years be damned.

If that doesn't fits, I don't know what does. Then again, I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong.

[lordofchange13]

If that's the Light Side's way of governing the galaxy and skimming off our emotional energy, I'm all for it, even if you feel like stealing names for it from TVTropes ("eldritch abomination-" Pfah!).

Cannot tell if you are joking, if you are sorry in advance. But "eldritch abomination" was ,i believe, created by HP Lovecraft.

[Simon_Jester]

Where do you want to bet our friend here heard the word from, LoC13?

But if Sith Force-Sensitives like Palpatine had not been around to exploit the flaws of the declining Republic, would an evil Galactic Empire rise to create untold misery and oppression for nearly everyone and causes a brutal, bloody civil war that torn the galaxy apart for two decades and several billions of lives?

No, the Republic would just have fallen apart into warlordism and domination by the corporate factions, creating untold misery and oppression for nearly everyone and causing a brutal, bloody civil war that would tear the galaxy apart for an indefinite amount of time, costing trillions of lives (really, on the scale of the Star Wars galaxy, a war that ends with 'only' a few billion dead is small potatoes).

And if Jedi Force-Sensitives weren't around to bail out the Republic every time it is in trouble, many of which caused by their own corruption, bureaucracy and other problems, sustaining a cumbersome and terrible government system longer then it should had, do you think that the Republic would still not have the chance to realize the need to reform and re-organize much, much earlier in the face of increasing resentment and discontent, thus preventing the chaos like the Trade Federation one from happening in the first place? Or perhaps fall apart with less damage then if Palpatine is around to exploit and influence it and allow the rise of a better governing system, instead of a oppressive monarchist military state?

Perhaps. Or perhaps the Republic would never have existed, or fallen apart in remote antiquity, and the galaxy would be endlessly filled with squabbling warlords. That's pretty much what happened after the Empire fell in its turn, after all... and the process of cementing the galaxy back together hinged largely on Force users.

Of course, everything in Star Wars revolves around Force users, because they find themselves caught up in great events so often and their powers distort outcomes somewhat. But that doesn't mean that those things would not happen with the Force missing from the equation.

As for 'Eldritch Abomination' I really could not find a better term to describe the nature of The Force, even not in the way as I had suggested in my theory:
- It is sentient in its own incomprehensible way.
- It is unimaginably powerful beyond sentient beings' comprehension.
- It is still not well understood properly as what it actually is (tens of thousands of years using it and they haven't come up with anything better then the fact it is an energy field that binds all life in the galaxy together. I mean come on, where did it come from in the first place?).
- It bestows portions of its power to be used by Force sensitive almost like a Chaos god from WH40K
- Some user of its powers became incidentally corrupted by the powers and turn to madness, evil, or worse, like those cultists in Cosmic Horror stories (If you don't believe me take a look at Darth Sidious and Darth Nihilus).
- It is probably indifferent to the struggles and strife of sentient beings in Star Wars, let alone morality, all the endless conflict and destruction caused by Force-sensitives over thousands of years be damned.
If that doesn't fits, I don't know what does. Then again, I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong.

I question the application of the word "abomination" to the Light Side. The Dark Side can arguably be called an "abomination," but arguments from yin/yang dualism definitely apply; the Dark Side is also the active and dynamic principle, one without which life in the galaxy might well dissolve into a tide of "om."

[SpaceMarine93]

Where do you want to bet our friend here heard the word from, LoC13?

But if Sith Force-Sensitives like Palpatine had not been around to exploit the flaws of the declining Republic, would an evil Galactic Empire rise to create untold misery and oppression for nearly everyone and causes a brutal, bloody civil war that torn the galaxy apart for two decades and several billions of lives?

No, the Republic would just have fallen apart into warlordism and domination by the corporate factions, creating untold misery and oppression for nearly everyone and causing a brutal, bloody civil war that would tear the galaxy apart for an indefinite amount of time, costing trillions of lives (really, on the scale of the Star Wars galaxy, a war that ends with 'only' a few billion dead is small potatoes).

And if Jedi Force-Sensitives weren't around to bail out the Republic every time it is in trouble, many of which caused by their own corruption, bureaucracy and other problems, sustaining a cumbersome and terrible government system longer then it should had, do you think that the Republic would still not have the chance to realize the need to reform and re-organize much, much earlier in the face of increasing resentment and discontent, thus preventing the chaos like the Trade Federation one from happening in the first place? Or perhaps fall apart with less damage then if Palpatine is around to exploit and influence it and allow the rise of a better governing system, instead of a oppressive monarchist military state?

Perhaps. Or perhaps the Republic would never have existed, or fallen apart in remote antiquity, and the galaxy would be endlessly filled with squabbling warlords. That's pretty much what happened after the Empire fell in its turn, after all... and the process of cementing the galaxy back together hinged largely on Force users.

Of course, everything in Star Wars revolves around Force users, because they find themselves caught up in great events so often and their powers distort outcomes somewhat. But that doesn't mean that those things would not happen with the Force missing from the equation.

As for 'Eldritch Abomination' I really could not find a better term to describe the nature of The Force, even not in the way as I had suggested in my theory:
- It is sentient in its own incomprehensible way.
- It is unimaginably powerful beyond sentient beings' comprehension.
- It is still not well understood properly as what it actually is (tens of thousands of years using it and they haven't come up with anything better then the fact it is an energy field that binds all life in the galaxy together. I mean come on, where did it come from in the first place?).
- It bestows portions of its power to be used by Force sensitive almost like a Chaos god from WH40K
- Some user of its powers became incidentally corrupted by the powers and turn to madness, evil, or worse, like those cultists in Cosmic Horror stories (If you don't believe me take a look at Darth Sidious and Darth Nihilus).
- It is probably indifferent to the struggles and strife of sentient beings in Star Wars, let alone morality, all the endless conflict and destruction caused by Force-sensitives over thousands of years be damned.
If that doesn't fits, I don't know what does. Then again, I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong.

I question the application of the word "abomination" to the Light Side. The Dark Side can arguably be called an "abomination," but arguments from yin/yang dualism definitely apply; the Dark Side is also the active and dynamic principle, one without which life in the galaxy might well dissolve into a tide of "om."

Eldritch abomination as a concept is named and codified by Lovecraft. TVtropes just gives it a good name. The Light Side of the Force is without doubt unqualified to be considered abominable due to all the good brought on by its users, but the nature of it still qualifies as abnormal, abominable, compared to other phenomena in the physical universe. Dark Side however qualifies for it - I mean, Just look at what it does to most users such as Darth Nihilus.

[Kinyo]

Eldritch abomination as a concept is named and codified by Lovecraft. TVtropes just gives it a good name. The Light Side of the Force is without doubt unqualified to be considered abominable due to all the good brought on by its users, but the nature of it still qualifies as abnormal, abominable, compared to other phenomena in the physical universe. Dark Side however qualifies for it - I mean, Just look at what it does to most users such as Darth Nihilus.

Abomination implies that something should not exist at all and should be rooted out. I don't think this is so with the dark side. You could argue that throughout the two SW trilogies both the light side AND the dark side are necessary to bring forth the republic that the Rebellion wants.

First of all we have the Old republic. Stagnant and a cause of great dissatisfaction. The fact the Trade Federation could openly flout it and blockade another world is only evidence at its inability to function.

Through events guided by both "good" and "evil" force users the Old Republic dissolves and in its place we get the Empire. Through the destruction of the old ways, new ones are brought about. Same with the Empire and the rebellion.

I doubt this would have been possible without the intervention of Sidious and the Sith. If anything left to its own devices and the Jedi Order the galaxy could have ended up worse off in the long run as Simon_Jester suggested.

I'd argue that in the long run the Galaxy needs both the Light and Dark sides to balance it out, like the antacid analogy someone brought up earlier.

To come back to the OP though I would not agree that the force is an emotion parasite or some malign intelligence manipulating life for its own end but as a life form which needs life to survive and in return provides some people with extra-ordinary abilities which can be used for great or mundane things.

[SpaceMarine93]

Eldritch abomination as a concept is named and codified by Lovecraft. TVtropes just gives it a good name. The Light Side of the Force is without doubt unqualified to be considered abominable due to all the good brought on by its users, but the nature of it still qualifies as abnormal, abominable, compared to other phenomena in the physical universe. Dark Side however qualifies for it - I mean, Just look at what it does to most users such as Darth Nihilus.

Abomination implies that something should not exist at all and should be rooted out. I don't think this is so with the dark side. You could argue that throughout the two SW trilogies both the light side AND the dark side are necessary to bring forth the republic that the Rebellion wants.

First of all we have the Old republic. Stagnant and a cause of great dissatisfaction. The fact the Trade Federation could openly flout it and blockade another world is only evidence at its inability to function.

Through events guided by both "good" and "evil" force users the Old Republic dissolves and in its place we get the Empire. Through the destruction of the old ways, new ones are brought about. Same with the Empire and the rebellion.

I doubt this would have been possible without the intervention of Sidious and the Sith. If anything left to its own devices and the Jedi Order the galaxy could have ended up worse off in the long run as Simon_Jester suggested.

I'd argue that in the long run the Galaxy needs both the Light and Dark sides to balance it out, like the antacid analogy someone brought up earlier.

To come back to the OP though I would not agree that the force is an emotion parasite or some malign intelligence manipulating life for its own end but as a life form which needs life to survive and in return provides some people with extra-ordinary abilities which can be used for great or mundane things.

Guess you are right about the abominable part.

As for the cleaning up the old ways for the new, that's a very optimistic view of the whole situation. The Republic could had reformed and reorganized themselves when they meet increasing opposition, stopping its decline and even reverse it. Palpatine played both sides for dupes and instead escalated the situation to an all out war that he could exploit to take over and destroy the Jedi (and by the way, he was the man behind the man who found and led the Trade Federation and later the CIS, all of which are led by species and leaders with questionable morals and motives to begin with).

The Empire, despite cleaning away the Old Republic and the benefits from its fall, was the worse thing to had happened to the Star Wars Galaxy besides the Y Vong war. Some people would argue that all that progress after the Galactic Civil War is not worth 20 years worth of genocide and oppression.

And as for the Force being a metaphysical creature in mutualistic relationship with all life in Galaxy, why would the Force, a supposed benevolent entity, want to give people powers to use for great or mundane things, when its influence is so corrupting, such that it creates Sith Lords who would go and terrorize the Galaxy? If the Force is less of a Cosmic Horror and more of a symbiotic partner in a mutualistic relationship, it's not very good at providing benefits. This leads me to conclude that either the Force is utterly indifferent to how it could affect its symbiotic partner, in that case it is not really a mutualistic symbiotic relationship and more of a Commensalist one, or the Force deliberately allow it to happen for its own ends, which is just plain insidious.

[Kinyo]

And as for the Force being a metaphysical creature in mutualistic relationship with all life in Galaxy, why would the Force, a supposed benevolent entity, want to give people powers to use for great or mundane things, when its influence is so corrupting, such that it creates Sith Lords who would go and terrorize the Galaxy? If the Force is less of a Cosmic Horror and more of a symbiotic partner, it's not very good at providing benefits. This leads me to conclude that either the Force is utterly indifferent to how it could affect its symbiotic partner, in that case it is not really a mutualistic relationship, or the Force deliberately allow it to happen for its own ends, which is just plain insidious.

This assumes that the Force has any intelligence at all. It could be a simple organism with a need to survive. That the force is a by product of its living processes, its flatulence if you will. Its evident that while people know of the force and have gut feelings training is needed for it to be any use.

This to me says that force abilities are not granted by the midiclorians but rather the application of knowledge of how to use the energy/force/whatever the midiclorians produce through their existence.

I would argue that the force is only indifferent in that it doesn't know what its doing. That it doesn't have, or at least has not shown, higher cognition that other species have. (If there is evidence out there please bring it forward as it would be interesting to debate.)

[SpaceMarine93]

This assumes that the Force has any intelligence at all. It could be a simple organism with a need to survive. That the force is a by product of its living processes, its flatulence if you will. Its evident that while people know of the force and have gut feelings training is needed for it to be any use.

This to me says that force abilities are not granted by the midiclorians but rather the application of knowledge of how to use the energy/force/whatever the midiclorians produce through their existence.

I would argue that the force is only indifferent in that it doesn't know what its doing. That it doesn't have, or at least has not shown, higher cognition that other species have. (If there is evidence out there please bring it forward as it would be interesting to debate.)

Well, the main conduit of the Force in the physical universe, the Midi-chlorions organisms present in all life in the Galaxy, is by canon actually intelligent and sentient. They all contributed power to the Force, linked by the Force and act as the host connection to the Force. If they are sentient on a cellular level, and there are Hundreds of Trillions of hosts, just think about how intelligent the Force creature could actually be. It probably IS sentient, and probably knows EXACTLY what it is doing.

Maybe is just that it is so overwhelmingly powerful on a cosmic scale, it didn't even notice the beings in Star Wars using its power for good or ill.

(For more information, look up Wookiepedia on Midi-chlorions and the Force)

[Kinyo]

Having misunderstood what midichlorians are I am going to have to bow out.

I was under the assumption that it was they that where responsible for the force not a link to it.

[SpaceMarine93]

Having misunderstood what midichlorians are I am going to have to bow out.

I was under the assumption that it was they that where responsible for the force not a link to it.

It is confusing.

[Thinktank]

To me. Equating the Force with a parasite that feeds on emotion, is like saying gravity is a
parasite that feeds on inertia. In the SW Galaxy the force is a part of the galactic constant.
The emotions of it's favored are what can damage the user's relationship with it. Not the other way around. The Force is not good nor evil. Like gravity, it simply is.

To: SpaceMarine93
I strongly recommend reading: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
This book should help your understanding of the concept of the Force in Star Wars.

[Darth Yan]

I feel that the forces sides are embodiments of sentient emotions as implanted on the force. The light side is the side that is implanted with the emotions of empathy compassion and loyalty while the dark side is the rage cruelty sadism and pride. Since both are fundamental neither side budges

[Lord Falcon]

I am going to contribute two things to this discussion, nothing more. First is a quote between Padmé and Obi-Wan in the Revenge of the Sith novelization, pg. 233:

"But the will of the Force — isn't that what Jedi follow?" - Padmé

"Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth — if any truth is ever simple — is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery." - Obi-Wan

And my next and final contribution to this discussion is to point out that all throughout the Star Wars EU books, it is described that when you "become one with the Force" after you die, you lose yourself, your entire identity, all of it, your every sense of individuality. Everything that made you YOU as a person, your thoughts, your feelings and your beliefs, all of them are absorbed into the Force. In this way, the Force reminds me a lot of the Borg, assimilating individual consciousness. What do you make of this, SpaceMarine93?

[Thinktank]

Blah blah blah.
And my next and final contribution to this discussion is to point out that all throughout the Star Wars EU books, it is described that when you "become one with the Force" after you die, you lose yourself, your entire identity, all of it, your every sense of individuality. Everything that made you YOU as a person, your thoughts, your feelings and your beliefs, all of them are absorbed into the Force. In this way, the Force reminds me a lot of the Borg, assimilating individual consciousness. What do you make of this, SpaceMarine93?

You were doing okay till you decided to get "cute" at the end there.


In SW when a character dies and "becomes one with force" they cease to exist.
Unless they got that "Sooper Seekrit" force ghost training...


The Force is pretty much a combination of the living spirit of the SW galaxy and the
philosophies of the sentients who try to understand and weild it.

[Lord Falcon]

What? Am I missing something? Isn't ceasing to exist the same thing as losing your individual consciousness? I am not trying to offend people. Sorry if you were.

[SpaceMarine93]

Actually, Lord Falcon, that's a good alternate interpretation of the Force. But there's still the problem of the special-training-to-get-Force-Ghost thing to consider.

[Simon_Jester]

What? Am I missing something? Isn't ceasing to exist the same thing as losing your individual consciousness? I am not trying to offend people. Sorry if you were.

Ask a Hindu, or a Buddhist.

Philosophically, there's a difference between transcendence and dying. Insofar as it's defined, the Jedi concept of transcendence in the afterlife is very different from that of real Eastern religions, but it at least resembles them more than it resembles the Western concept of personal survival in a life after death. If you tap into that extra set of concepts and frames of reference, it becomes easy to imagine ways for the Jedi philosophy to work.

For example, the Jedi might reasonably hold that the very idea of self is an illusion: that there is no discrete "I," only a little localized plot of territory within the Force. Influences flow into the territory from outside, or out of the territory to affect the rest of the Force, and there's constant interaction- there is no sense in which we can draw a box around the territory and say "this territory is totally different and autonomous from the rest of reality."

Drawing such a box is exactly what we do when we talk about our own consciousness. There is "me," and there is "everything else," and never the twain shall meet. "My" decisions are discrete and distinct from all other processes in the universe, for do "I" not have free will?

But to someone who perceives the entire cosmos as bound together as I've described, the boxes are not real. To someone who has transcended the limits we experience walking about daily life, they are illusions. This is similar to how astronauts have sometimes noted that national boundaries appear illusionary from space. From space all you see of the land below is the terrain, not the lines people draw to decide which parts of it belong to whom. From the point of view of an extremely enlightened Jedi, as the Jedi define enlightenment, perhaps all they see of the minds 'below' is the Force. They see that, and not the boundaries people draw to define exactly which bits of the cosmos are "me" and which bits are "not-me."

And from that basis, one might say that drawing the lines is bad for you- trying to define which bits of reality are "you" versus "not-you" distorts your perceptions and your ability to do the things that uphold the proper order of the cosmos. Thus, abandoning your sense of individuality and accepting that "you" are the territory, not the arbitrary borderlines you drew on the territory, can be viewed as a good thing.

It doesn't mean the territory goes away, either- it just means that the territory no longer makes a fetish out of being viewed as this totally discrete, autonomous thing and accepts its relationship to the larger world around it.



Note that I'm not saying this is true, and I'm not trying to describe any real Eastern religious belief. I'm just saying I can easily imagine the Jedi believing it. It would give them a way to explain a difference between ceasing to exist and losing your consciousness, and why one might be considered bad while the other is good.

As to Force ghosts, the obvious explanation is that you're training yourself to leave an 'imprint' of your memories and persona on the 'territory' in the Force that you once occupied- something that can interact with the outside world as if you were still alive. This isn't necessarily doing yourself a favor, but if you still have work to do after you die or want to be able to leave some kind of connecting thread between yourself and the material world for a while, it's an option I guess.

[Lord Falcon]

And, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

And thanks for the reply, SpaceMarine93. Did you get my message?

[SpaceMarine93]

And, ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

And thanks for the reply, SpaceMarine93. Did you get my message?

Dear Lord Falcon, I got your message. I had sent a formal reply. Thank you for your generosity.