AOTC

[Adam Reynolds]

Also, what was Jango's purpose of going from Kamino and heading to Geonosis - aside from blowing it all away for Obi-Wan, and to show off his neato seismic charges made out of collapsium?

It's possible that Dooku told him to do that in order for the Jedi to follow him and begin the Clone Wars. Dooku and Palpatine wanted the war to start, it was the rest of the CIS leadership that was the problem. Although this doesn't explain why Jango's first response was to attack Obi-Wan instead of drawing him down to the planet.

Another interesting question is whether Jango knew that the Republic was the buyer for the clones or not?

[VF5SS]

It's possible that Dooku said a lot of things but it turns out they only paid Christopher Lee to deliver maybe 20 lines of dialog and have little impact on the plot outside of being another throwaway boss fight.

[FTeik]

Also, what was Jango's purpose of going from Kamino and heading to Geonosis - aside from blowing it all away for Obi-Wan, and to show off his neato seismic charges made out of collapsium?

Having lost his sanctuary on Kamino with a Jedi on his tail Jango needs another safe heaven. Why not the guys, who will most likely go to war with the Republic in the near future? Especially since they also hired him to kill a republic senator.

[Admiral Drason]

Also, what was Jango's purpose of going from Kamino and heading to Geonosis - aside from blowing it all away for Obi-Wan, and to show off his neato seismic charges made out of collapsium?

Having lost his sanctuary on Kamino with a Jedi on his tail Jango needs another safe heaven. Why not the guys, who will most likely go to war with the Republic in the near future? Especially since they also hired him to kill a republic senator.

He failed at killing Amidala too. And he led the Jedi right to their factory world. If I were the Seppys I would be getting real nervous that he was you know a Republic agent or something.

[Shroom Man 777]

Not to mention the Jedi going "uh the progenitor of our great bigass clone army who was hired by a mysterious guy to do that job is now fleeing to a CIS planet and hanging out with Nute Gunray and chilling with their mysterious Sith Lord leader".

I know, it's not an immediate connection to make in-character for the Jedi guys. It's a leap in logic that won't be obvious for people INSIDE the movie. But you'd think Dooku and Sidious would try to at least minimize any chances of anyone discovering the true nature of their charade. What they were doing in AOTC was fucking sloppy, akin to waving their butts in front of everyone.

Like, you don't send the guy who knows about your clone army program off to risky assassination missions into the capital planet to get chased by Jedi who as we know have telepathic powers and pesky habits of being meddling kids. And you don't send this guy to your lair to drink some ice tea together with Dooks and Nutes.

It's like, if "Jango being the progenitor of the clone army and simultaneously best buds with Dooks and Nutes" = "Biff McCain being the chief designer of the F-22 and/or other sensitive informations we don't want other people to know"

Then "sending Jango to Coruscant and risk losing him to Jedi with all the shit in his head" = "sending Biff McCain to Tehran on Bourne Identity assassination missions and risk losing him and all his fucking secret classified informations to the goddamn Iranians"

Great work at plausible deniability Dooku. You could've just hired two separate guys for the separate jobs, or meet with Jango separately and not in front of CIS VIPs, so he won't have to make Knife's convoluted explanations to Nute Gunray and also risk compromising Jango and all the information in his brain to the fucking telepathic Jedi.

[Adam Reynolds]

Not to mention the Jedi going "uh the progenitor of our great bigass clone army who was hired by a mysterious guy to do that job is now fleeing to a CIS planet and hanging out with Nute Gunray and chilling with their mysterious Sith Lord leader".

I know, it's not an immediate connection to make in-character for the Jedi guys. It's a leap in logic that won't be obvious for people INSIDE the movie. But you'd think Dooku and Sidious would try to at least minimize any chances of anyone discovering the true nature of their charade. What they were doing in AOTC was fucking sloppy, akin to waving their butts in front of everyone.

Like, you don't send the guy who knows about your clone army program off to risky assassination missions into the capital planet to get chased by Jedi who as we know have telepathic powers and pesky habits of being meddling kids. And you don't send this guy to your lair to drink some ice tea together with Dooks and Nutes.

It's like, if "Jango being the progenitor of the clone army and simultaneously best buds with Dooks and Nutes" = "Biff McCain being the chief designer of the F-22 and/or other sensitive informations we don't want other people to know"

Then "sending Jango to Coruscant and risk losing him to Jedi with all the shit in his head" = "sending Biff McCain to Tehran on Bourne Identity assassination missions and risk losing him and all his fucking secret classified informations to the goddamn Iranians"

Great work at plausible deniability Dooku. You could've just hired two separate guys for the separate jobs, or meet with Jango separately and not in front of CIS VIPs, so he won't have to make Knife's convoluted explanations to Nute Gunray and also risk compromising Jango and all the information in his brain to the fucking telepathic Jedi.

But Dooku really didn't want plausible deniability. Part of Jango purpose was to have been detected. If the Jedi fail to learn about the Clone Army, it can't be used to jump start the Clone Wars and further the plans of the Sith. The F-22 designer analogy is terrible, what Dooku was doing was more analogous to a reversed version of Operation Mincemeat, where the British used a dead body to relay false plans for an invasion of Greece before the real invasion of Sicily, in this case the Clones were meant to be discovered by the Jedi. Keeping the Clone Army hidden was useless to the Sith in the long run, Dooku and Palpatine wanted the war to start in order to weaken the Republic and enough for a takeover. In the ROTS novelization, the entire purpose of the Clone Was was stated to be the eradication of the Jedi, this is impossible if the existence of the clone army is kept in the dark.

As far as the Separatist leadership knows, Jango could have merely been playing both sides, which is what the Jedi believed in Labyrinth of Evil. All Dooku would have to claim is that Jango was secretly selling his DNA while still doing freelance jobs for the CIS. Remember that Dooku claimed to the CIS leaders to be surprised at the existence of the Clone Army in the battle. It appears that Dooku was not being entirely truthful with the CIS leadership, as fitting the Sith policies of dishonesty.

Regarding the Jedi discovering the secrets with telepathy, their abilities are limited against someone with sufficient training. In addition, the ability of the Jedi to investigate heavily into the matter of the creation of the Clone Army was limited by the fact that they were fighting for the survival of the Republic and it is difficult to run a major investigation when every able bodied Jedi was needed on the front lines. Labyrinth of Evil actually goes into this issue fairly heavily when Obi-Wan and Anakin discover Gunrays holochair that was used in TPM. Using this, they are able to begin tracing Sidious. Palpatine then orchestrates the Battle of Coruscant to cover his movements long enough to put his remaining plans into action as seen in ROTS.

[Shroom Man 777]

But Dooku really didn't want plausible deniability. Part of Jango purpose was to have been detected. If the Jedi fail to learn about the Clone Army, it can't be used to jump start the Clone Wars and further the plans of the Sith. The F-22 designer analogy is terrible, what Dooku was doing was more analogous to a reversed version of Operation Mincemeat, where the British used a dead body to relay false plans for an invasion of Greece before the real invasion of Sicily, in this case the Clones were meant to be discovered by the Jedi. Keeping the Clone Army hidden was useless to the Sith in the long run, Dooku and Palpatine wanted the war to start in order to weaken the Republic and enough for a takeover. In the ROTS novelization, the entire purpose of the Clone Was was stated to be the eradication of the Jedi, this is impossible if the existence of the clone army is kept in the dark.

I get that the Jedi had to find out about the Clone Army. But was it really necessary for the Jedi to also discover that the progenitor of their clone army was also buddy buddy with a Sith Lord employer and the CIS?

Dig this. They're (the Jedi) already suspicious of Sith Lord involvement, rite? And the Sith don't want people to figure out that they're actually playing both sides, rite?

Jango simply could've led the Jedi to the Clone Army without leading them to Geonosis and the CIS leaders and the Sith. Was getting Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme in a coliseum gladiating against mutated hippos, mutated bobcats, and mutated mantises also part of the evil Sith scheme?

So, after they give the Jedi their Clone Army via Jango leading them there to Kamino... wouldn't it be wise for Jango then to not lead the Jedi right into the CIS lair where they see their Clone Army progenitor chilling with the CIS leaders and the Sith Lord whose involvement in manipulating galactic affairs the Jedi already suspected?

Was getting a huge ass battle happening while their proxy CIS leaders were all on Geonosis and in the line of fire (LAAT gunships were landing on the same coliseum as Nute Gunray and Dooku were at mere minutes ago), thus necessitating a very very narrow escape on part of Dooks and Nutes et al. at the last minute, barely evading the Republic fleet around Geonosis, also a feature of this cunning plan? Cause this was a feature in the whole "needlessly inviting Jango from Kamino to go to Geonosis and have slumber parties with Dooks and Nutes" thang.

Cause, shit, that's almost like as smart as "crushing the rebellion and getting a new Sith Apprentice by using myself as bait for the rebel fleet and also having the one foreseen to kill me partake in a dodgy duel with his dad right there in front of me".

What part of the Sith plan could possibly be diminished or undermined or whatever by Jango not having to know jack shit about the CIS or Nute Gunray or whatever? If the Jedi ended up capturing him or compromising him, at least he won't be able to reveal any details about Dooku, Geonosis, Nute Gunray, the CIS, or whatever - and this is no big loss if at that point all he was supposed to do was just lead the Jedi to their Clone Army.

As far as the Separatist leadership knows, Jango could have merely been playing both sides, which is what the Jedi believed in Labyrinth of Evil. All Dooku would have to claim is that Jango was secretly selling his DNA while still doing freelance jobs for the CIS. Remember that Dooku claimed to the CIS leaders to be surprised at the existence of the Clone Army in the battle. It appears that Dooku was not being entirely truthful with the CIS leadership, as fitting the Sith policies of dishonesty.

But again, Nute Gunray can ask, "It's a reeeaaaalllly small galaxy, huh? Dude, that guy you had right beside you was actually the progenitor of the Republic's Clone Army - the same army that surprised us with its existence in the battle. And we/you didn't know this? Goddamn it! You/we suck! Balls! Maaaaaaang!"

Regarding the Jedi discovering the secrets with telepathy, their abilities are limited against someone with sufficient training. In addition, the ability of the Jedi to investigate heavily into the matter of the creation of the Clone Army was limited by the fact that they were fighting for the survival of the Republic and it is difficult to run a major investigation when every able bodied Jedi was needed on the front lines. Labyrinth of Evil actually goes into this issue fairly heavily when Obi-Wan and Anakin discover Gunrays holochair that was used in TPM. Using this, they are able to begin tracing Sidious. Palpatine then orchestrates the Battle of Coruscant to cover his movements long enough to put his remaining plans into action as seen in ROTS.

What about non-Jedi intelligence assets of the Republic? I get that everyone was busy with the whole galactic war of annihilation.

But still, the Sith relying on "they'll be too busy killing roger-roger droids to look real hard and notice these discrepancies" strikes me as sloppy. Where the hell is the paranoiac need to maintain secrecy and shit?

Almost as sloppy as "crushing the rebellion and getting a new Sith Apprentice by using myself as bait for the rebel fleet and also having the one foreseen to kill me partake in a dodgy duel with his dad right there in front of me".

[Patroklos]

But Dooku really didn't want plausible deniability. Part of Jango purpose was to have been detected. If the Jedi fail to learn about the Clone Army, it can't be used to jump start the Clone Wars and further the plans of the Sith. The F-22 designer analogy is terrible, what Dooku was doing was more analogous to a reversed version of Operation Mincemeat, where the British used a dead body to relay false plans for an invasion of Greece before the real invasion of Sicily, in this case the Clones were meant to be discovered by the Jedi. Keeping the Clone Army hidden was useless to the Sith in the long run, Dooku and Palpatine wanted the war to start in order to weaken the Republic and enough for a takeover. In the ROTS novelization, the entire purpose of the Clone Was was stated to be the eradication of the Jedi, this is impossible if the existence of the clone army is kept in the dark.

Except all of that is unnecessary in order to reveal the existance of the clone army. In fact as far as the movies are concerned (don't know about the novelizations), the way the clone army was discovered was NOT on purpose. There is nothing to suggest Palpantine intended for Fett to leave behind a dart that happened to be identifiable to a specific planet that most know nothing about (the identification of which was its own special brand of stupid.) The whole sequence is unbelievable in the first place, to then add on top that it was also planned is simply ridiculous.

The simple fact is that the Kaminoids were fullfilling a contract. Why not just have the Kaminoids contact the Republic when that contract was fullfilled (given the developmental stage of the clones, apparently right about when they were discovered)?

"Hey guys, as agreed we are delivering the army you ordered! What? What do you mean you know nothing about it! Here is the signed purchase order right here!"

Far less suspicious, and above all SIMPLE.

The other question I would ask is that if Kamino is so prosperous and productive it can build and outfit an entire galactic army all by itself, why are they not running things?

[Simon_Jester]

Cause, shit, that's almost like as smart as "crushing the rebellion and getting a new Sith Apprentice by using myself as bait for the rebel fleet and also having the one foreseen to kill me partake in a dodgy duel with his dad right there in front of me".

Yeah, Palpatine messed that one up. Come to think of it, his plan would have worked better had he been anywhere BUT the second Death Star.

What part of the Sith plan could possibly be diminished or undermined or whatever by Jango not having to know jack shit about the CIS or Nute Gunray or whatever? If the Jedi ended up capturing him or compromising him, at least he won't be able to reveal any details about Dooku, Geonosis, Nute Gunray, the CIS, or whatever - and this is no big loss if at that point all he was supposed to do was just lead the Jedi to their Clone Army.

I think Dooku was using him as a hired gun for various purposes- to clarify your argument, do you propose that he should simply not have hired Fett for any other purpose, paying him solely to provide DNA for clonetroopers?

It's interesting to reflect that if he'd done that, the entire sequence of events in the movie wouldn't have happened: the assassination attempt against Padme would not have led to Fett and Kamino.

What about non-Jedi intelligence assets of the Republic? I get that everyone was busy with the whole galactic war of annihilation.

But still, the Sith relying on "they'll be too busy killing roger-roger droids to look real hard and notice these discrepancies" strikes me as sloppy. Where the hell is the paranoiac need to maintain secrecy and shit?

I'm not sure the Republic had much intelligence, or much of an organized military, before the Clone Wars. I mean, that's why guys like the Trade Fed were able to bulk up and become such a threat- the Republic wasn't laying down the law on them. It seems like the Republic relied really hard on the Jedi, and the Jedi did an OK job at dealing with random petty problems on various random planets, so the Republic's other security organs became withered, feeble, and atrophied.

Also, Palpatine's being overconfident in "they'll be too busy killing droids" ties into his being able to manipulate both sides of the war. If he needs inconvenient evidence destroyed, or annoyingly inquisitive Jedi killed off, he has several ways to do it without arousing suspicion because of all the hordes of clonetroops and robot minions and whatever running around.

His having that level of power may have made him stupid. Indeed, it seems like the more power Palpatine has over a situation, the stupider he gets- he's pretty cunning about insinuating his way into a position of supreme power when he doesn't already HAVE power, but he's bad at using that power efficiently to defeat his enemies.

[Channel72]

Except all of that is unnecessary in order to reveal the existance of the clone army. In fact as far as the movies are concerned (don't know about the novelizations), the way the clone army was discovered was NOT on purpose. There is nothing to suggest Palpantine intended for Fett to leave behind a dart that happened to be identifiable to a specific planet that most know nothing about (the identification of which was its own special brand of stupid.) The whole sequence is unbelievable in the first place, to then add on top that it was also planned is simply ridiculous.

The way the movies are written, the exact parameters of Palpatine's plans are always rather undefined. It's the same situation in Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith. We never know to what extent the events which unfold in Palpatine's favor are A) planned by Palpatine, B) pure luck / ad-hoc adapting, or C) forseen via supernatural Sith clairvoyance. Most likely, the overall scheme was planned in advance, but the details were a combination of ad hoc adapting and Sith clairvoyance.

[Knife]

According to the novels, most of his plans are set up to be win/win for him.

[VF5SS]

Not that I really care what the novels say but are we really supposed to accept Palpatine as having childish levels of near invincibility to his plans? Nuh uh, my Palpy can beat anyone with his powers because I said so.

I know ROTS basically ends with him tempting Anakin with a vague promise to stop death by pregnancy but jeez.

We used to laugh at those old "Batman with enough prep time" threads.

[Knife]

*shrug* the whole prequel is laced with the theme of inevitability, which, you know, is ironic in itself since it's a prequel.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think Dooku was using him as a hired gun for various purposes- to clarify your argument, do you propose that he should simply not have hired Fett for any other purpose, paying him solely to provide DNA for clonetroopers?

It's interesting to reflect that if he'd done that, the entire sequence of events in the movie wouldn't have happened: the assassination attempt against Padme would not have led to Fett and Kamino.

I don't see any real difference on the Jedi going "oh wow we just discovered a brand new spanking clone army for the Republic after tracing an assassination attempt on a Republic politician to an assassin who mysteriously sired a clone army with mysterious suspicious backers oh so conveniently just for this occasion (and then we later see this assassin chilling with Dooks and Nutes)" over " *scene cuts to Jedi Council chamber* *slimy Republic official in space glasses arrives* *talks with Jedi Masters and hands them some rolls of microfilm and a folder labeled PROJECT: MANGDALORE* *collective gasp from the Jedis* DUN DUN DUN"

(EDIT: Oooh! Oooh! And then the slimy Republic official wearing space glasses can also quip "you won't be so clonely anymore" and wear his glasses.... YEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!)

I think the Jedi receiving their clone army from a slimy government secret project would ironically arouse less suspicion than the Jedi receiving their clone army by following an assassin that they later on discover to be also in the employ of the Sith Lord and the CIS leadership. This would be a good thing maybe if you are a shadowy paranoiac overlord orchestrating both sides of the conflict from behind the scenes and don't wish anyone to have any clue at all to what schemey schemes you're scheming in your sithy schemery.

ALSO. Fine, Jango leads the Jedi to Kamino after trying to shoot Padme with some mutant centipedes. The Jedi find the clone army.

But did Jango also have to lead them to Geonosis? Does he also have to know that his mysterious employer is best buds with the CIS? IF he got captured in Coruscant or in Kamino, wouldn't it be better for him to reveal only A.) "I don't know the true identity of my employer, I work on a need to know basis, and all I know was that I was paid a lot of cash to kill Amidala. Years earlier I was also paid to progenate a clone army" rather than B.) "Oh, I know my boss is Count Dooku and I usually go to this secret CIS forge world Geonosis to have some ice teas with Nute Gunray and a who's who's list of other CIS VIPs. Years earlier, I was also hired by some shadowy guy to progenate a clone army"?

Hell. With Option A. "I don't know the exact identity of who hired me to kill Amidala. I also progenated the clone army." if your Sith Lord wasn't an idiot, the Amidala Assassination Attempt could be spun as some intra-Republic infighting rather than an obvious CIS scheme.

Why? Because Amidala is anti-war and anti-militarists. So, for example, those guys who stand to profit from a huge ass Republic arms buildup like Lockheed-Kuati and Northrop-Nebulon and such as well as hawks in the government and warmongering nations and like the Mangdalorian Tea Party practicing their Space Amendment Rights and other assholes in the Republic could be also suspects of sponsoring the assassination of a liberal dilithiumocrat Senator known for undermining national security and sympathizing with brown aliens.

It would help cover up the Sith Lord's trail rather than Obi Wan going "Oh, I just followed the bounty hunter, and mere hours later he went on to have tea and biscuits with Dooku and Nute Gunray in a CIS stronghold world. Ain't that convenient?"

Cause Obi-Wan would totally go "Suuuure the Shroud of the Dark Side affected me, that was why Jango was able to punch me in the face and I couldn't simply Force Choke his brain arteries. But do you know why Jango was so fucking stupid that he inadvertently led me to his bosses? Because the Shroud of the Dark Side was affecting his BRAIN! That's why! Heee-heee-heee!"

Someone could go "Mang, this Shroud of the Dark Side bullshit is some lame copout bullshit for you Jedi assholes to slip out of these versus debates when you get caught being a bunch of dickweeds."

And Obi-Wan can go "Deal with it" and go *smug bantha* or *smug hutt*

Yes.

His having that level of power may have made him stupid. Indeed, it seems like the more power Palpatine has over a situation, the stupider he gets- he's pretty cunning about insinuating his way into a position of supreme power when he doesn't already HAVE power, but he's bad at using that power efficiently to defeat his enemies.

Correction- he's pretty cunning about insinuating his way into a position of supreme power when he doesn't already HAVE power, when all of this happens before/outside the movies or off-screen, cause when we actually see all this in detail in the PT movies, it all breaks down into pooop.