Light Sabers and Physics

[Stark]

If it has some properties of a 'plasma sword' and also has some properties impossible for a 'plasma sword', what is the scientific thing to do? Shrug and say 'oh well I want it to be a plasma sword regardless'?

The best approach is probably what has already been suggested; put aside the quest for TEH REALIZM and just document attributes.

[Singular Intellect]

...Um-no? For starters, it completely fails to exhibit any thermal effects on its surroundings except when directly touching them, which a magnetic field containing the plasma would do jack all about. Something tells me a tube of superheated plasma a few inches from your hand is going to be a mite uncomfortable...and yet, we never see Jedi dropping their lightsabres and waving their hands going 'hot hot hot this hurts'.

Perhaps the material making up the blade of a lightsaber is in high speed motion, which contributes to its cutting ability and also generates a great deal of friction heat when in contact with matter denser than air.

The best approach is probably what has already been suggested; put aside the quest for TEH REALIZM and just document attributes.

I thought part of the point of this thread was proposing practical means of constructing a lightsaber knockoff concept?

[Stark]

I believe people have thought it has rotational business because of the (prop based) way they rotate when thrown or swung.

[Boeing 757]

This is just a random thought sparked by what Batman wrote, and I have no clue how well it fits into what little knowledge that we have on lightsaber workings, but what if the blade causes a technobabble reaction in various forms of matter much like a phaser does? That is, when it comes into contact with matter it heats up to extremely high temperatures, but when it idles there is little energy released and a user can handle it safely. Thanks to Episode III we know that Force users can survive in hot environments astonishingly well, so they would be likewise able to withstand the energy output of a lightsaber blade doing what it does best. I'm sure though that such an explanation couldn't stand up in the end owing to X-character in the EU having employed lightsabers like a Force user without any hindrance.... Worse yet, we would need to invoke technobabble (heaven forbid) to explain how they work. But I reckon we don't have much of a choice given that they display weird characteristics that are hard to define.

[Stark]

Regardless of where the heat comes from, when the blade heats things there's no avoiding it. For instance, I believe it's considered Qui Gon used magic to not melt his hands when he was heating the door in TPM, as the radiative heat from the molten metal would have been dangerous.

[Singular Intellect]

Regardless of where the heat comes from, when the blade heats things there's no avoiding it. For instance, I believe it's considered Qui Gon used magic to not melt his hands when he was heating the door in TPM, as the radiative heat from the molten metal would have been dangerous.

As the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan over toxic lava pits of Mustafar demostrates, Force users can easily enough shield themselves from harmful environmental effects that would quickly kill your standard human, which includes extreme heat.

[Batman]

We saw Han cut open that Tauntaun in ESB without his glove catching fire so at least the direct heat from the blade can't be all that much.

[Formless]

I thought part of the point of this thread was proposing practical means of constructing a lightsaber knockoff concept?

I'm pretty sure that's just your interpretation of the OP author's intent. In any case, he sure does seem dedicated to making his "knockoff" as accurate to the movies as possible, which is where the more fantastic aspects of the weapon are working against him.

If you want a scientifically plausible knockoff, though, Michio Kaku has a design involving a collapsable baton made from porous ceramic and pumped full of superhot plasma. Consider it the ultimate evolution of the "lightsaber as plasma weapon" meme.

This is just a random thought sparked by what Batman wrote, and I have no clue how well it fits into what little knowledge that we have on lightsaber workings, but what if the blade causes a technobabble reaction in various forms of matter much like a phaser does? That is, when it comes into contact with matter it heats up to extremely high temperatures, but when it idles there is little energy released and a user can handle it safely.

Well, let me take this opportunity to spout technobabble at you expand on one of my top three hypothesis-- blade as Quantum Singularity. I'm still not sure where I heard this one first, but probably its what happened to Bobby Brown's spinning-monofiliment theory after I lost track of his site for several years and it permutated in my brain.

Lightsabers sometimes cause delayed heating-- in the Phantom Menace scene where they are cutting through the door the guy with the blowtorch was out of synch with the actor, so the actual melting appears a few seconds after the prop passed over it. This indicates some kind of rate limited reaction, like the NDF idea for phasers. The singularity idea is that if you put a one dimensional (that is, line-shaped) singularity in there and fed it a constant supply of matter/energy, then it will give off lots of Hawking radiation which in turn creates heat when you stick the singularity inside something (flesh, metal doors, electronics, etc.). As an added bonus, the matter can come from the very objectyou are trying to cut or stab.

[Singular Intellect]

We saw Han cut open that Tauntaun in ESB without his glove catching fire so at least the direct heat from the blade can't be all that much.

I can't think of a single incident where the heat generated by a lightsaber blade wasn't due to it's interactions with matter it was cutting through. This definitely strikes me as a friction induced heat phenomenon, similar to how a metal blade itself is cold but will heat up rapidly when cutting something.

[Batman]

That was a (somewhat belated perhaps) comment on the 'plasma in a bottle' theory, which should result in some observable consequences on the surroundings, nevermind the wielder.

[biostem]

What if, instead of a magnetic field, it was a very particular form of ray shielding which surrounded the energy within - since ray shields block "energy", it is possible they also block the heat of the blade from leaking out. When the blade is pushed against matter, the ray shields fail to stop the interaction of the energy of the blade with said matter, thus you start getting the thermal effects. It could also, then, be that the ray shields are what deflect blaster bolts and the like. Since ray shields could be invisible, it may be a built-in safety measure that they never deploy from a lightsaber unless the energy blade is also activated. Perhaps they are also what maintains the energy blade at a fixed length, and allows for some lightsabers (I think it was Gantoris') to have variable lengths.

[Connor MacLeod]

If we were going to invoke 'blade shaped magic forcefield' its probably just simpler to say they made the blade out of the magic forcefield and leave it at that. I'd have to check the background stuff but I'm pretty sure one sort of shield or another can be dangerous to matter it comes into contact with.

Maybe its a force field surrounding a metal rod.

[Stark]

What if, instead of a magnetic field, it was a very particular form of ray shielding which surrounded the energy within - since ray shields block "energy", it is possible they also block the heat of the blade from leaking out. When the blade is pushed against matter, the ray shields fail to stop the interaction of the energy of the blade with said matter, thus you start getting the thermal effects. It could also, then, be that the ray shields are what deflect blaster bolts and the like. Since ray shields could be invisible, it may be a built-in safety measure that they never deploy from a lightsaber unless the energy blade is also activated. Perhaps they are also what maintains the energy blade at a fixed length, and allows for some lightsabers (I think it was Gantoris') to have variable lengths.

This is exactly how the superior Gundam beam sabres work. Its energy intensive, but the beam sabres are used by giant robots that recharge them from their internal powerplant so its not an issue. It also means you can within broad limits make any shape you want, which leads to beam shields etc. As Connor says, its really just a weaponised shield (although in Gundam I-fields only weakly affect regular matter so they're not dangerous in themselves, unlike ray shields).

[Metahive]

[DERAIL]

As the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan over toxic lava pits of Mustafar demostrates, Force users can easily enough shield themselves from harmful environmental effects that would quickly kill your standard human, which includes extreme heat.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but then I found this.

No. Just no. Mustafar is a volcanic planetoid, it's air is super-hot, toxic and most probably devoid of oxygen due to the lack of plants*. Compare Venus, a planet with quite similar features whose air is mostly a nasty coctail of nitrogen, carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide. If the Force could enable Jedi to sustain themselves on such air then, frankly, they should also be able to breath underwater. That's however directly contradicted by both Phantom Menace and the Clone Wars series where Jedi need a breathing apparatus to survive underwater. Hell, in the scene where Gunray pumps poison gas into the Jedi's chamber to kill them they audibly hold their breaths. So no, the Force can't[/i ] protect them from such environmental hazards.

File that one under shoddy research and/or dramatic necessity, but not for Force Wank.

*Tattooine has the same problem, but at least that's a populated planet so maybe there's some sort of artificial atmosphere in play. Arrakis, the inspiration for Tattooine, did not have this problem, the oxygen was provided by the Sand Worm's exhaust. That's pulp sci-fi for ya'.

[/DERAIL]

[Singular Intellect]

As the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan over toxic lava pits of Mustafar demostrates, Force users can easily enough shield themselves from harmful environmental effects that would quickly kill your standard human, which includes extreme heat.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but then I found this.

No. Just no. Mustafar is a volcanic planetoid, it's air is super-hot, toxic and most probably devoid of oxygen due to the lack of plants*. Compare Venus, a planet with quite similar features whose air is mostly a nasty coctail of nitrogen, carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide. If the Force could enable Jedi to sustain themselves on such air then, frankly, they should also be able to breath underwater. That's however directly contradicted by both Phantom Menace and the Clone Wars series where Jedi need a breathing apparatus to survive underwater. Hell, in the scene where Gunray pumps poison gas into the Jedi's chamber to kill them they audibly hold their breaths. So no, the Force can't[/i ] protect them from such environmental hazards.

Your argument fails because it assumes the breathing apparatus they utilize cannot be a matter of convenience (small, easily tucked away in clothing and deals with an extremely common environmental issue) rather than absolute necessity because they cannot possibly perform similar feats underwater.

[Batman]

Why would the ability to deal with toxic atmospheres necessarily mean they can breathe underwater or do so without significant effort? When the alternatives are a) having to heavily concentrate for lengths of time or b) just pop a piece apparently easily available technology in your mouth, I know what I'd do.
Besides, doesn't change a thing about both Ben and Annie being able to act pretty normally in a definitely seriously hot environment. The fact that by real world physics the atmosphere should have been toxic under the circumstances doesn't make that go away. And that's ignoring the fact that this is Star Wars, and they definitely have the technology to make the atmosphere breathable.

[Singular Intellect]

Besides, doesn't change a thing about both Ben and Annie being able to act pretty normally in a definitely seriously hot environment. The fact that by real world physics the atmosphere should have been toxic under the circumstances doesn't make that go away.

You don't even need to go that far. We specifically saw humanoid individuals suited up in heavy duty environmental gear during their fight over the lava flows.

[Ralin]

Your argument fails because it assumes the breathing apparatus they utilize cannot be a matter of convenience (small, easily tucked away in clothing and deals with an extremely common environmental issue) rather than absolute necessity because they cannot possibly perform similar feats underwater.

I'm reasonably sure that there are EU examples of Jedi being able to go extended or at least unusually long periods of time without breathing, though specifics aren't springing to mind at the moment.

[Singular Intellect]

I'm reasonably sure that there are EU examples of Jedi being able to go extended or at least unusually long periods of time without breathing, though specifics aren't springing to mind at the moment.

The Phantom Menace movie clearly demonstrated that when Qui Gon and Obi Won were locked in room with toxic gases and their would be killers commented "Surely they must be dead by now".

Just because the Jedi can survive such an environment via usage of the Force doesn't mean technological means to free up what efforts they would otherwise have to allocate wouldn't be enormously useful to them. Their breathing apparatuses might only have a few limited effective uses, one of which is obviously submersion in water.

However, this is really straying off topic, so I'll cease contributing to this tangent.

[Metahive]

Your argument fails because it assumes the breathing apparatus they utilize cannot be a matter of convenience (small, easily tucked away in clothing and deals with an extremely common environmental issue) rather than absolute necessity because they cannot possibly perform similar feats underwater.

Yeah, ignore that other examples I gave like the poison gas attempt on their lives in the very same movIe (even the script says the Jedi are holding their breaths). That's a winning strategy. Oh yeah and:



Small, easily tucked away and just for smaller inconveniences, eh? At one point in this arc, Anakin loses his helmet and is quite quickly in danger of drowning as does Obi-Wan in a season 3 episode where his submersible is destroyed while being deep under water. In another episode, the Jedi have to deal with an atmosphere that's contaminated with lethal germs and when Ahsoka is exposed to that air she promptly falls ill, no fancy Force protection here. Consider yourself refuted on that front.

Why would the ability to deal with toxic atmospheres necessarily mean they can breathe underwater or do so without significant effort?

It's not just the toxic gases which they can't defend themselves against with the Force anyway, see above, it's the lack of oxygen. If they can filter oxygen out of a purely volcanic atmosphere (no plants, remember?), then why not filter it out of good ol' H2O, where it should even be more abundant, too? Please don't bend over backwards to explain that away.

Besides, doesn't change a thing about both Ben and Annie being able to act pretty normally in a definitely seriously hot environment. The fact that by real world physics the atmosphere should have been toxic under the circumstances doesn't make that go away. And that's ignoring the fact that this is Star Wars, and they definitely have the technology to make the atmosphere breathable.

Artificial atmosphere is right out, the air is still super-hot, and the planet is unpopulated save for a few droids anyway. Jedi force to counter toxic atmopsheres is right out due to the examples I gave above re: poison gas murder attempt. Filtering oxygen out of the atmosphere is also out re: displayed inability to breath underwater. Conclusion: pulp sci-fi levels of writing and research. I consider that a superior explanation compared to conjuring up a heretofore unseen and never seen again "Force as invisible Environmental Suit+ Oxygen Tank" power. It's on par with Superman's "Repair Great Wall of China Vision" power in Superman IV.

Jedi training might give them the ability to hold their breaths for a longer time, but at no point in either the movies or the series does the Force confer enhanced damage protection outside of heightened reflexes*. The Jedi are not Bene Gesserit who do have the stated ability to alter their body chemistry at will.

BTW, Clone Wars series is higher canon than the rest of the EU. So Jedi are not drowning-proof, no matter what some shitty EU novel has to say on the subject.

*Mother Talzin can use the Force to create a protective bubble around herself, but that's Dathomiri Force magic and neither the Jedi nor the Sith ever do something similar (outside Dark Forces II Jedi Knight anyway).

[Ziggy Stardust]

So what exactly is your argument? That Mustafar's atmosphere was actually habitable and it wasn't real lava? If you are discussing the in-world abilities of Jedi, you can't hand waive away their demonstrated ability to survive in that environment with, "LOL scuba gear." It's fine if you think it is a result of mediocre writing (and I agree with you), but that's a non sequitir.

It really doesn't matter what happened in the Clone Wars series of anywhere else, because we specifically saw Anakin and Obi-Wan survive on Mustafar. The only in-universe way for your argument to be sensible is to then conclude that Mustafar is not actually a hazardous environment, or that Star Wars humans are immune to lava outside of Force ability.

[Batman]

Either Mustafar was a hazardous environment or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. IF Mustafar was that dangerous, than yes, that means Anakin and Ben managed to hop all over the place without being in any way roasted to death, poisoned, or asphyxiated. Either Mustafar is that dangerous a place yet Jedi can deal with it pretty casually (at least for a while) or it's not all that dangerous to begin with. You have to picl one, as that is what we see happen in the movie.

[Terralthra]

There is also the rather obvious point that when Anakin loses the duel on Mustafar, he (and his clothing) immediately burst into flame and he has third degree burns everywhere but his artificial arm. Clearly, there is ridiculous temperature there near the lava river (as there should be), but Obi-Wan, standing 2m away, is absolutely fine. There must be some sort of active intervention going on for it to switch off like that.

As for oxygen, it's entirely possible that the volcanoes are outgassing oxygen instead of what they would outgas on Earth.

[Havok]

In another episode, the Jedi have to deal with an atmosphere that's contaminated with lethal germs and when Ahsoka is exposed to that air she promptly falls ill, no fancy Force protection here. Consider yourself refuted on that front.

Isn't Ashoka a padawan that is still learning? Maybe not quite the clear cut victory you seem to think it is.

[avatarxprime]

Jedi training might give them the ability to hold their breaths for a longer time, but at no point in either the movies or the series does the Force confer enhanced damage protection outside of heightened reflexes*. The Jedi are not Bene Gesserit who do have the stated ability to alter their body chemistry at will.

Wait what? So we're not counting things like Anakin's freefall and impact onto Zam's speeder in AotC as enhanced damage protection? Or how about Luke (still a relative novice Force user) enduring multiple impacts with large metal fixtures thrown at him by Vader and then the subsequent fall out of Cloud City in TESB? I'd certainly say that Maul surviving being bisected points toward Force users being far more durable than a regular person.