Why would not training Anakin prevent his fall to dark side?

[Ahriman238]

Immaterial. He allowed the slaughter of the Jedi, and personally led it where he could. He slaughtered the Jedi children who looked to him for guidance and salvation, then he spent years mopping up the remnants that escaped the initial betrayal.

And even if none of this were true and he were almost totally uninvolved, the Jedi are still gone.

[Scrib]

What do you mean "we have no indication that he hates the institution of slavery?"

He says way back in TPM "I dreamed I became a Jedi and came home to free all the slaves." Hell, even if he became possessed by the Dark Side he could still act with good intentions.

Ah sorry. I seem to remember him focusing more on buying his mom's freedom. It's been a while since I watched TPM, my bad.

Still, I doubt that raw force power alone is enough to topple a ruthless syndicate that pretty much has free reign in Tatooine. It depends on how often this power manifests and in what forms but he would have a tough go of it. We've seen some untrained people be able to call on luck iirc when they put their minds to it but how often -and well- can they do this?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Immaterial. He allowed the slaughter of the Jedi, and personally led it where he could. He slaughtered the Jedi children who looked to him for guidance and salvation, then he spent years mopping up the remnants that escaped the initial betrayal.

And even if none of this were true and he were almost totally uninvolved, the Jedi are still gone.

Who would have led the clonetroopers to storm (no pun intended, maybe, I'm lying, ehh, well), the Jedi Temple if Vader/Anakin wasn't there?

Wasn't 99% of the CIS military all droids?

[Zwinmar]

Problem is the duality of the force in the original trilogy where as if one goes off of KOTOR it is a continuum not an either or (ex: being Jolie Bindo) if you wish to take the fluff into account.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Problem is the duality of the force in the original trilogy where as if one goes off of KOTOR it is a continuum not an either or (ex: being Jolie Bindo) if you wish to take the fluff into account.

What do you mean by that, exactly?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I believe he means (and I have no familiarity with KOTOR) that force use is not an either/or system. Youare not automatically Light or Dark Side. You are not automatically Dark Side beside you acted once out of anger or passion to accomplish something good (like freeing slaves or whatever). Case in point, in one of the Jedi Apprectice books, Obi-Wan renounces being a Jedi to help his preferred side win a civil war. He acted out of emotion not the cold reasoning Jedi like and yet he is not considered a Dark Jedi for it.

In Jedi Academy for instance, Kyle Katarn explains that "both the Light and Dark Side powers are open to you. Remember, it's how you use them that counts" (emphasis mine). Whereas the OT implies that you use Dark Side powers it's "bye-bye, you're evil now."

[Batman]

Immaterial. He allowed the slaughter of the Jedi, and personally led it where he could. He slaughtered the Jedi children who looked to him for guidance and salvation, then he spent years mopping up the remnants that escaped the initial betrayal.
And even if none of this were true and he were almost totally uninvolved, the Jedi are still gone.

Who would have led the clonetroopers to storm (no pun intended, maybe, I'm lying, ehh, well), the Jedi Temple if Vader/Anakin wasn't there?

The clone commander at the scene, presumably. Given the less than spectacular performance of fully trained Jedi in the Mustafar arena I doubt the clones would really have needed Anakin to take out the Younglings. Besides, weren't you the one arguing Skywalker Sr wasn't all that involved in the eradication of the Jedi?

Wasn't 99% of the CIS military all droids?

Far as I can tell, though I don't understand how this is important?

[Zwinmar]

I believe he means (and I have no familiarity with KOTOR) that force use is not an either/or system. Youare not automatically Light or Dark Side. You are not automatically Dark Side beside you acted once out of anger or passion to accomplish something good (like freeing slaves or whatever). Case in point, in one of the Jedi Apprectice books, Obi-Wan renounces being a Jedi to help his preferred side win a civil war. He acted out of emotion not the cold reasoning Jedi like and yet he is not considered a Dark Jedi for it.

In Jedi Academy for instance, Kyle Katarn explains that "both the Light and Dark Side powers are open to you. Remember, it's how you use them that counts" (emphasis mine). Whereas the OT implies that you use Dark Side powers it's "bye-bye, you're evil now."

Exactly, except that its the intent behind it rather than action itself.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Immaterial. He allowed the slaughter of the Jedi, and personally led it where he could. He slaughtered the Jedi children who looked to him for guidance and salvation, then he spent years mopping up the remnants that escaped the initial betrayal.
And even if none of this were true and he were almost totally uninvolved, the Jedi are still gone.

Who would have led the clonetroopers to storm (no pun intended, maybe, I'm lying, ehh, well), the Jedi Temple if Vader/Anakin wasn't there?

The clone commander at the scene, presumably. Given the less than spectacular performance of fully trained Jedi in the Mustafar arena I doubt the clones would really have needed Anakin to take out the Younglings. Besides, weren't you the one arguing Skywalker Sr wasn't all that involved in the eradication of the Jedi?

Wasn't 99% of the CIS military all droids?

Far as I can tell, though I don't understand how this is important?

There were no Jedi on Mustafar.

There's no reason that the younglings/the other adult Jedi couldn't have escaped/survived. After all, many people can escape in real life-or-death-situations. Possibly, they could have outsmarted the overwhelming amount of the clonetroopers. Many victims have escaped in criminal cases. The Spartans had escaped from a much larger force. So, yes, it's possible that the Jedi could have beaten, or at the very least, survived, a much larger military force. Nothing is predestined to happen.

However, Anakin's presence (or his lack therof) there, doesn't really affect those other factors either way. So, yes, the result is the same.

And, also, what do you mean by the less than spectacular fully trained Jedi performance?

For some reason, Obi Wan and Yoda had survived Order 66, although, IDK, why. Maybe it was destiny? I prefer to think not. I wonder if Mace Windu or Qui Gon Jinn or a Jedi Anakin could have survived that.

I never really understood that scene, or the need for Vader/Anakin to lead the clonetroopers right in front of them while they marched. A clone commander wouldn't have to stand in front of them while they marched into the Jedi Temple.

Also, I used to think that Skywalker Sr. was responsible fully for Order 66 and wiping out the Jedi, and creating the Galactic Empire. I love the idea that Qui Gon Jinn himself was responsible for the destruction of the billions of Alderaanians and the rise of the Galactic Empire and Order 66, putting the entire Jedi Order to the sword himself by his bad decisions in training Anakin.

On the other hand, that idea is rather flawed, as Anakin didn't do most of the Jedi-killings. Cin drallig, his two padawans, the entire group of younglings, and a few other Jedi that were mentioned in the EU during Operation Knightfall. Also, I love the idea that Anakin was just a useful tool in Sidious's Empire. It makes more sense within the Chosen One storyline.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I believe he means (and I have no familiarity with KOTOR) that force use is not an either/or system. Youare not automatically Light or Dark Side. You are not automatically Dark Side beside you acted once out of anger or passion to accomplish something good (like freeing slaves or whatever). Case in point, in one of the Jedi Apprectice books, Obi-Wan renounces being a Jedi to help his preferred side win a civil war. He acted out of emotion not the cold reasoning Jedi like and yet he is not considered a Dark Jedi for it.

In Jedi Academy for instance, Kyle Katarn explains that "both the Light and Dark Side powers are open to you. Remember, it's how you use them that counts" (emphasis mine). Whereas the OT implies that you use Dark Side powers it's "bye-bye, you're evil now."

Exactly, except that its the intent behind it rather than action itself.

And, yes, the Darkside is like demonic possession/drug usage. Obi Wan only would have been a Dark jedi if he was fully posessed by it, not just a mere brush with the darkside, like Luke had when he was about to kill Anakin/Vader, or when Anakin, or temporarily Darth Vader at that time, had killed the Tusken Raiders.

[Batman]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period. It was the emotions driving you to use them and what you used them for that mattered ('A Jedi uses the Force to defend, never for attack' or something to that effect) and Palpy expected Luke to fall to the Dark Side because he acted out of hatred and anger despite Luke using nothing but basic Jedi techniques (and little enough of that).

[Eternal_Freedom]

I believe he means (and I have no familiarity with KOTOR) that force use is not an either/or system. Youare not automatically Light or Dark Side. You are not automatically Dark Side beside you acted once out of anger or passion to accomplish something good (like freeing slaves or whatever). Case in point, in one of the Jedi Apprectice books, Obi-Wan renounces being a Jedi to help his preferred side win a civil war. He acted out of emotion not the cold reasoning Jedi like and yet he is not considered a Dark Jedi for it.

In Jedi Academy for instance, Kyle Katarn explains that "both the Light and Dark Side powers are open to you. Remember, it's how you use them that counts" (emphasis mine). Whereas the OT implies that you use Dark Side powers it's "bye-bye, you're evil now."

Exactly, except that its the intent behind it rather than action itself.

Ah yes, I guess that was clearer to me when quoting Katarn than it actually was. My bad.

As for needing Anakin to storm the Temple, I dont think it was actually necessary militarily, but it was part of his sacrifice to join the Dark Side. Killing Mace and saving Sidious wasn't enough, he had to actively tear down all that he had sworn to uphold. By making him go through with it, Sidious cements Anakin's choice. One Jedi killed in a split-second decision, that's something you could argue either way, but leading a massacre and slaughtering children? There's no going back once you get that far.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period. It was the emotions driving you to use them and what you used them for that mattered ('A Jedi uses the Force to defend, never for attack' or something to that effect) and Palpy expected Luke to fall to the Dark Side because he acted out of hatred and anger despite Luke using nothing but basic Jedi techniques (and little enough of that).

I was expanding upon Zwimnar's point referring to the duality of the Force in the OT. As in, "you act from anger, you're damned, no parole." THe comments on Force powers was in connection with a different point.

As for watching a different OT, well, I only had the Special Edition growing up

[Dominarch's Hope]

It wouldnt. Palpatine now knew of the boys power.


There. Done.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period. It was the emotions driving you to use them and what you used them for that mattered ('A Jedi uses the Force to defend, never for attack' or something to that effect) and Palpy expected Luke to fall to the Dark Side because he acted out of hatred and anger despite Luke using nothing but basic Jedi techniques (and little enough of that).

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil — everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." - George Lucas

[Zwinmar]

The only problem is that the Jedi are a neutral force, lawful neutral to use old d&d terms and the dark side is variations of the Evil axis. A lot of the conflict is when the Jedi at not LN themselves, rather they follow the good mentality. (sorry for the heavy use of d&d terminology but its the best way I have found to date to explain it.)

[Batman]

I was expanding upon Zwimnar's point referring to the duality of the Force in the OT. As in, "you act from anger, you're damned, no parole."

Except Luke did act from anger, and he was paroled. Heck Anakin was in the end, despite 20 years of Sithing around as Vader on top of the stuff he did in the Clone Wars. 'I am a Jedi, like my father was before me.' Apparently, acting from anger once isn't enough to permanently assign you to the Dark Side, and even being a Dark Side user for 20 years doesn't mean you can't be redeemed.

As for watching a different OT, well, I only had the Special Edition growing up

I'm feeling old now. No wait, I've been in print since 1939, I feel old anyway.
And WRT Force powers and there being no distinction between Light/Dark ones there's no difference between the OT and the SE.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I believe he means (and I have no familiarity with KOTOR) that force use is not an either/or system. Youare not automatically Light or Dark Side. You are not automatically Dark Side beside you acted once out of anger or passion to accomplish something good (like freeing slaves or whatever). Case in point, in one of the Jedi Apprectice books, Obi-Wan renounces being a Jedi to help his preferred side win a civil war. He acted out of emotion not the cold reasoning Jedi like and yet he is not considered a Dark Jedi for it.

In Jedi Academy for instance, Kyle Katarn explains that "both the Light and Dark Side powers are open to you. Remember, it's how you use them that counts" (emphasis mine). Whereas the OT implies that you use Dark Side powers it's "bye-bye, you're evil now."

Exactly, except that its the intent behind it rather than action itself.

Ah yes, I guess that was clearer to me when quoting Katarn than it actually was. My bad.

As for needing Anakin to storm the Temple, I dont think it was actually necessary militarily, but it was part of his sacrifice to join the Dark Side. Killing Mace and saving Sidious wasn't enough, he had to actively tear down all that he had sworn to uphold. By making him go through with it, Sidious cements Anakin's choice. One Jedi killed in a split-second decision, that's something you could argue either way, but leading a massacre and slaughtering children? There's no going back once you get that far.

Anakin was filled with self hatred. He cried a single tear after killing the Seperatist leaders on Mustafar. Anakin also tells Luke, "it's too late for me, son". He was very depressed and shocked after Padme had died. He knew deep within himself that he had done wrong. But there was a conflict within him. His evil temptations and desires had overshadowed those other thoughts. He had also gone mad with guilt and self hatred. Only by saving Luke from Sidious did he free himself from that.

In the rise and fall of Darth Vader, it's stated that Vader/Anakin cried not for the deaths of the Separatists that he had murdered, but he cried for the loss of the kind little boy that he once was. He mourned for his soul. He was mourning what he has become as a person, overall, that, to quote Padme, that he's changed, for the worst.

"After killing all the Separatist leaders, Palpatine's new apprentice had
stepped outside the mountain fortress on Mustafar to gaze at the blazing
lava rivers below.
He would not mourn for the lives he had taken. But for the loss of his
former self, the boy who had dreamed of becoming a Jedi, he was unable
to hold back the tears that streamed down his cheeks.
Anakin Skywalker was gone. Or was he? After all, Padme had fallen in love
with Anakin, not Darth Vader." The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader Pdf.

Unlike the symbolic devil Sidious who was purely evil, and purely all about power for himself, both political, and both scientific/spiritual.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

The only problem is that the Jedi are a neutral force, lawful neutral to use old d&d terms and the dark side is variations of the Evil axis. A lot of the conflict is when the Jedi at not LN themselves, rather they follow the good mentality. (sorry for the heavy use of d&d terminology but its the best way I have found to date to explain it.)

The Lightside of the Force is another term for the Goodside of the Force. It sounds fancier. It sounds more epic and spiritual and sophisticated.

Don't take this force stuff too literally. It's just a storytelling device-to provide some magical superpowers that look good with special effects, and to be used as a symbolic representation of the good and the evil that's within us.

[Batman]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period. It was the emotions driving you to use them and what you used them for that mattered ('A Jedi uses the Force to defend, never for attack' or something to that effect) and Palpy expected Luke to fall to the Dark Side because he acted out of hatred and anger despite Luke using nothing but basic Jedi techniques (and little enough of that).

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil — everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." - George Lucas

One small problem-a)not evident in the movies, and b) (okay, so that makes it two problems) not needed. You can have Light Side=Good and Dark Side=Evil without any of the Force powers tied to either side being needed.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Unless I saw a different OT than Eternal_Freedom, it didn't have Light/Dark Side powers, it just had Force powers period. It was the emotions driving you to use them and what you used them for that mattered ('A Jedi uses the Force to defend, never for attack' or something to that effect) and Palpy expected Luke to fall to the Dark Side because he acted out of hatred and anger despite Luke using nothing but basic Jedi techniques (and little enough of that).

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil — everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." - George Lucas

One small problem-a)not evident in the movies, and b) (okay, so that makes it two problems) not needed. You can have Light Side=Good and Dark Side=Evil without any of the Force powers tied to either side being needed.

Not everything has to be spelled out for us in detail in the movies for it to be true. The movies only have so much time-about two hours or so. In most forms of fiction, whether it be movies or books, the author/the director/the story-writer gives us a lot of information outside of the movies. And, don't forgot about SW's EU.

I still don't get what your opinion is. What's this whole issue about Force powers being tied to either side?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I was expanding upon Zwimnar's point referring to the duality of the Force in the OT. As in, "you act from anger, you're damned, no parole."

Except Luke did act from anger, and he was paroled. Heck Anakin was in the end, despite 20 years of Sithing around as Vader on top of the stuff he did in the Clone Wars. 'I am a Jedi, like my father was before me.' Apparently, acting from anger once isn't enough to permanently assign you to the Dark Side, and even being a Dark Side user for 20 years doesn't mean you can't be redeemed.

As for watching a different OT, well, I only had the Special Edition growing up

I'm feeling old now. No wait, I've been in print since 1939, I feel old anyway.
And WRT Force powers and there being no distinction between Light/Dark ones there's no difference between the OT and the SE.

Huh, guess I should stop listening to Yoda then. Conceded.

[Batman]

If we need the information given to us outside the movie/book/TV show to make sense of what's going on inside it, the author/director failed. The book/movie has to stand on its own. There's nothing wrong with additional information adding onto what is in the original work (I may have little complimentary to say about the Wars EU, but I absolutely like the fact that it exists) but if the EU information is needed to make sense of your original work...you blew it.
The Light/Dark Side powers thingie seems to be a side effect of three intertwining conversations going on in this thread. Essentially, there's Force powers, and there's how you use them, and why you use them, end of story. The problem is in the EU (especially the computer games) there's Light and Dark Side powers, and if you use them, regardless of what you use them for, or why you use them, it nudges you towards the Dark/Light Side, which is something simply not present in the movies (and far as I can tell, not in the Clone Wars cartoons, either).

[Spiderman Fanboy]

What's this thread discussion about, exactly? I don't want to derail this thread at all. I just want to have a normal and on topic discussion. What are we talking about, exactly, over here? What about the Force powers? IDK what to talk about in this thread, you guys.

[Batman]

In case you haven't noticed by now, thread topics tend to wander around here. This thread's topic seems to have wandered from the original 'Why would no training prevent Anakin to fall to the Dark Side' through 'who cares as long as he's not trained and thus mostly harmless' through 'are there actually Dark/Light Side powers as opposed to how and why you use the Force.'